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Dr Winston O Boogie
08-08-2019, 08:48
I was having a discussion on another thread regarding HDMI and why there is no difference between a cable costing say £5 and one costing £1000 as long as you are using the correct spec cable for the system you have (1080p, 4K, 8K). It seem there are those who even now say they can see differences like better colour, clarity etc. This is purely placebo effect and nothing to do with the cable.
So, in short, I would never spend more than £10 on a cable, usually much less.

There is a good article on CNet explaining much better than I can.

https://www.cnet.com/news/why-all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same/

Stratmangler
08-08-2019, 11:53
I haven't noticed any difference in image quality with a number of HDMI leads, one of them having been highly recommended on this forum.
That said, I haven't bothered with 4K, I'm quite happy with 1080p.

I didn't buy the recommended one - it was in box of unsaleable stuff someone was throwing out.

Ammonite Audio
08-08-2019, 12:47
I have to use HDMI between a BT (Humax) YouView box and the TV, at 1080p. I have three Belkin HDMI cables to hand, varying from cheap to inexpensive, and there is a clear difference in picture quality between them (the 'inexpensive' one is clearly better, with a more natural colour palette to the picture, and better definition). So, in my experience HDMI cables are not all the same, but how you tell whether one is any good before buying is another matter.

walpurgis
08-08-2019, 12:58
It's the same with SPDIF digital audio cables. You'd expect the music to sound the same regardless of which one is used, but there are very clear audible differences between various cabes.

Dr Winston O Boogie
08-08-2019, 14:14
I have to use HDMI between a BT (Humax) YouView box and the TV, at 1080p. I have three Belkin HDMI cables to hand, varying from cheap to inexpensive, and there is a clear difference in picture quality between them (the 'inexpensive' one is clearly better, with a more natural colour palette to the picture, and better definition). So, in my experience HDMI cables are not all the same, but how you tell whether one is any good before buying is another matter.

There will be no difference, only a placebo effect.

Macca
08-08-2019, 17:01
Have to admit that I'm not really bothered about picture quality as long as I can see what is going on. I use an HDMI I bought years ago second hand and I've never done any comparisons or read up about the technology or any tests that have been done on HDMI. Are there any studies where people have been asked to distinguish between HDMI cables in controlled conditions and failed to do so? If so linking to them would back up your argument, otherwise it is just gainsaying.

Sherwood
08-08-2019, 17:55
There will be no difference, only a placebo effect.

This is incorrect. Apart from anything else there are multiple HDMI standards and some cables cannot maintain a signal over higher bitrates or even get a signal in the first place. I have noticed significant differences between cables.

Gazjam
08-08-2019, 19:54
oh yes they can.

Silent
08-08-2019, 20:07
If you can see/hear the difference then spend the money, if you can't see/hear the difference then you've saved yourself a packet.

Never seen any point in telling people what they can and can't see and hear...

Gazjam
08-08-2019, 20:12
This.

Barry
08-08-2019, 20:12
If you can see/hear the difference then spend the money, if you can't see/hear the difference then you've saved yourself a packet.

Never seen any point in telling people what they can and can't see and hear...

"Many a true word ...." :) I'm inclined to agree.

Alex_UK
08-08-2019, 22:26
Personally, I have never tried to compare different HDMI leads, though I have only ever spent sensible money on one, employing the "buy cheap, buy twice" principle. If people are seeing differences when "technically" there shouldn't be any I won't argue. If someone can explain categorically how black holes work and how the universe began then I might be prepared to believe that science has the answer to everything, but until then I'll remain open-minded. Placebo effect could easily be the answer, but not the absolute undisputed truth in my view.

struth
08-08-2019, 22:50
Lots of differences in hdmi everything quite frankly. It's a minefield. Cables are no different. If it was just 1 0 0 1 etc then pretty much all digital stuff would be the same... And it really ain't.

Marco
09-08-2019, 07:29
I was having a discussion on another thread regarding HDMI and why there is no difference between a cable costing say £5 and one costing £1000 as long as you are using the correct spec cable for the system you have (1080p, 4K, 8K). It seem there are those who even now say they can see differences like better colour, clarity etc. This is purely placebo effect and nothing to do with the cable.


In your humble opinion, Barry. Others who hear (and think) differently, based on their experience, are of course entitled to their contrary opinion, regardless of what 'evidence' suggests.

Please remember that AoS is strictly (and staunchly) an 'ears first' subjectivist forum, and so priority will always be given to what folks report they hear ('imagined' or otherwise), over what is measured - and threads that go out of their way to arrogantly pooh-pooh the former, because the latter appears to disprove it (I'm not saying you're doing this here, though) will always be given short shrift, as they invariably end in acrimony.

Therefore, please bear that in mind, and also that this thread will be strictly moderated on that basis. Cheers!:cool:

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 09:27
Have to admit that I'm not really bothered about picture quality as long as I can see what is going on. I use an HDMI I bought years ago second hand and I've never done any comparisons or read up about the technology or any tests that have been done on HDMI. Are there any studies where people have been asked to distinguish between HDMI cables in controlled conditions and failed to do so? If so linking to them would back up your argument, otherwise it is just gainsaying.

I linked to an artical on Cnet.

Here is another:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/are-expensive-hdmi-cables-worth-buying/

Marco
09-08-2019, 09:33
You can link to as many articles from 'experts' as you like. It doesn't categorically disprove what people hear.

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 09:34
In your humble opinion, Barry. Others who hear (and think) differently, based on their experience, are of course entitled to their contrary opinion, regardless of what 'evidence' suggests.

Please remember that AoS is strictly (and staunchly) an 'ears first' subjectivist forum, and so priority will always be given to what folks report they hear ('imagined' or otherwise), over what is measured - and threads that go out of their way to arrogantly pooh-pooh the former, because the latter appears to disprove it (I'm not saying you're doing this here, though) will always be given short shrift, as they invariably end in acrimony.

Therefore, please bear that in mind, and also that this thread will be strictly moderated on that basis. Cheers!:cool:

Marco.

Hi Maro, Audio is subjectivist Video is not.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 09:35
You can link to as many articles as you like. It doesn't categorically disprove what people hear.

Marco.

This is about video Marco, Video has standards, unlike audio.

Here is just a very short clip of one of the Shootouts in New York, in front of Samsung, LG. Panasonic, Sony, and the worlds leading expert calibrators ( Kevin Miller, DeWayne Davis, David Mackenzie, joe kane) who are physically able to measure picture quality. I attended the UK version, and was involved in the early NY shootouts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNeJUcYqx64

Marco
09-08-2019, 09:42
It still doesn't matter. It's not definitive proof of anything. There is no 'proof' you could post here that would categorically dismiss someone's subjective listening experience.

The fact is, is someone hears differences with HDMI cables, or anything else for that matter in hi-fi, then *to them* those differences are real. End of.

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 09:47
It still doesn't matter. It's not definitive proof of anything. There is no 'proof' you could post here that would categorically dismiss someone's subjective listening experience.

The fact is, is someone hears differences with HDMI cables, or anything else for that matter in hi-fi, then *to them* those differences are real. End of.

Marco.

Your keep saying hearing, seeing is different mate. PQ can be measured against industry standards that all production companies use (BBC, ITV, Hollywood, and all the rest).

Marco
09-08-2019, 09:54
Why is seeing any different? Videos can be produced (skewed) to portray a particular bias, and you don't know that wasn't the case with the video in question.

Anyway, I've made my point. Just be careful not to come across as dismissing someone's valid subjective opinion, just because what they're reporting doesn't fit with your belief system;)

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 09:59
Why is seeing any different? Videos can be produced (skewed) to portray a particular bias, and you don't know that wasn't the case with the video in question.

Anyway, I've made my point. Just be careful not to come across as dismissing someone's valid subjective opinion, just because what they're reporting doesn't fit with your belief system;)

Marco.

Marco this is not a case of belief or subjective opinion, if you want the correct PQ you need to calibrate, of course you can set your controls to what ever you like, but have you ever wonderd why there are conrols for White Balance, Chroma, Gamma etc. They are there for a reason. This is a good guide and one I started with:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322

Macca
09-08-2019, 10:26
I linked to an artical on Cnet.

Here is another:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/are-expensive-hdmi-cables-worth-buying/

That's not any sort of controlled study though is it? It's just some bloke saying there is no difference. Anyone can do that.

This is the sort of thing I was thinking of although it isn't a very good test. http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lesnumeriques.com%2Fblind-tests-avec-deux-jurys-experts-et-lecteurs-p770_6175_93.html There doesn't seem to be much in the way of testing on HDMI.

Marco
09-08-2019, 10:32
That's not any sort of controlled study though is it? It's just some bloke saying there is no difference. Anyone can do that.


My point exactly!

It always makes me yawn when folks post videos of this and that, which supposedly conclusively *proves* this or that, simply because they've been approved by a supposed 'expert', as it does nothing of the sort. Most often it's done simply to ram home someone's entrenched opinion, wrongly presented as 'fact'.

Quite frankly, I don't care how many 'experts' disagree with my findings or opinions on audio, as ultimately ALL that matters (to me) is what my ears and experience tell me!

Marco [a 'fancy' HDMI cable believer];)

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 11:20
That's not any sort of controlled study though is it? It's just some bloke saying there is no difference. Anyone can do that.

This is the sort of thing I was thinking of although it isn't a very good test. http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lesnumeriques.com%2Fblind-tests-avec-deux-jurys-experts-et-lecteurs-p770_6175_93.html There doesn't seem to be much in the way of testing on HDMI.

For the last time the differences are measurable so yes loads of controled studies, including the links I have posted.

Another:

https://www.expertreviews.co.uk/tvs-entertainment/7976/expensive-hdmi-cables-make-no-difference-and-heres-why/page/0/2

https://hdguru.com/all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same-or-are-they-full-test/

https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/test-centre/digital-home/best-hdmi-cables-3676960/

struth
09-08-2019, 11:30
you just dont get it...;) one man's fact is another's maybe or na!. You are not the only one to calabrate their tv etc, but you will find there are plenty of informed members here who disagree with said opinions like you quote. so leave it there... its only your opinion, not a fact. otherwise folk would just buy the same tvs, blurays, cables etc..

Macca
09-08-2019, 11:32
For the last time the differences are measurable so yes loads of controled studies, including the links I have posted.

Another:

https://www.expertreviews.co.uk/tvs-entertainment/7976/expensive-hdmi-cables-make-no-difference-and-heres-why/page/0/2

https://hdguru.com/all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same-or-are-they-full-test/

https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/test-centre/digital-home/best-hdmi-cables-3676960/

yes I read that one but I was looking for a blind test where someone has to identify what they claim is a better HDMI cable over those supposedly not as good. I couldn't find anything.

And don't give me this 'for the last time' shit. Either you want to discuss the subject or you don't.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 11:33
you just dont get it...;) one man's fact is another's maybe or na!. You are not the only one to calabrate their tv etc, but you will find there are plenty of informed members here who disagree with said opinions like you quote. so leave it there... its only your opinion, not a fact. otherwise folk would just buy the same tvs, blurays, cables etc..

Sorry it is a fact and I have produced the evidenc and techniques to show it, but you guys don't seem to be able to grasp that.. This is not audio this is video and in that realm it is quite easy to measure differences in PQ.

Why would they buy the same TV's etc?

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 11:39
yes I read that one but I was looking for a blind test where someone has to identify what they claim is a better HDMI cable over those supposedly not as good. I couldn't find anything.

And don't give me this 'for the last time' shit. Either you want to discuss the subject or you don't.

I have provided evidence on how easy it is to measure differences in PQ and there are none between HDMI cables due to the nature of the tech, I have provided you with experts in the field who measure TV Pq every day and also work for LG Panasonic Samsung Sony also the inventor of PDP displays Dr Larry F Webber. Provided video to show the differences in PQ from one TV to another once calibrated.

PS
All Tv's are not the same HDMI are.

Blu Ray Players are pretty much the same apart from Samsung & Sony who's players introduce some backdoor processing, again easily measurable.

Marco
09-08-2019, 12:04
Sorry it is a fact and I have produced the evidenc and techniques to show it, but you guys don't seem to be able to grasp that...

No you haven't, and it isn't.

I know what I can hear (and see, in reference to picture quality with 'fancy' HDMI cables, which completely flies in the face of your 'evidence'), and I don't give a toss what the videos you've posted supposedly 'prove'. Therefore, please stop presenting your views as fact, or the thread will be closed, as it currently serves no purpose other than to make you feel better about yourself.

Marco.

Opti-cal
09-08-2019, 12:34
Measurements are a really good starting point. However beyond that things get more and more subjective.

The facts are that all signals digital and analogue are susceptible to interference, RFI, resistance, capacitance etc (much less digital of course). Therefore some types of cables must be better at preserving the signal and able to present the amp/DAC/decoder with a stronger/less degraded signal (even if not measurable with our current technology). Of course here there are huge differences between digital and analogue signals but the principal is the same.

Even if the signal that exits from one end is measurably identical to the one that entered (and I completely understand the stance of *if it measures the same it is the same* even if I don't agree) I won't rule out that something could cause the actual picture/sound/information to be presented differently to our eyes/ears.

The way those key senses interact with our brains is still not fully understood.

Anyway I'm getting a bit philosophical/cosmic now but its an interesting debate as ever.

Marco
09-08-2019, 12:44
Good post, Chris. Exactly my position on these matters!:thumbsup:

Too many folks place their trust in so-called 'experts', rather than in their own eyes or ears.

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 13:33
No you haven't, and it isn't.

I know what I can hear (and see, in reference to picture quality with 'fancy' HDMI cables, which completely flies in the face of your 'evidence'), and I don't give a toss what the videos you've posted supposedly 'prove'. Therefore, please stop presenting your views as fact, or the thread will be closed, as it currently serves no purpose other than to make you feel better about yourself.

Marco.

Erm excuse me, where have I said or done anything wrong. You won't allow me to put my point over and because I have you will close the thread. These are not my views these are facts but you are not going to let me post them? It might help if you would provide evidence to the contrary or tell my why you feel there is a difference?

Perhaps if I say this, for example there is an easy test pattern for colour gamut, measuring this with a Klein K10 A colorimeter on a tv and then replacing the HDMI on the same TV with a different (more expensive one) will show no difference in colour points right through the range if there was these points would change.

https://www.kleininstruments.com/k10-a

https://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a595/tele19621/colourspace_zpsqn4lrysu.jpg (https://s1285.photobucket.com/user/tele19621/media/colourspace_zpsqn4lrysu.jpg.html)

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 13:40
https://www.theinquirer.net/w-images/3aa984b6-e6e7-4edc-a791-0fe8deb11be0/0/facepalm3-540x334.png?1454319686

Marco
09-08-2019, 13:49
Erm excuse me, where have I said or done anything wrong. You won't allow me to put my point over and because I have you will close the thread.

No, your views are as welcome as those of anyone else, as long as you don't try and present them as fact, in an attempt to dismiss the perfectly valid views of those who's opinions clash with your 'facts'.

Do you understand that?

AoS is a staunchly subjectivist forum, therefore staunchly objectivist views aren't welcome here. If you don't get that, then I suggest you find another site to post on where such views are welcome, and where you can post your 'proof videos' until your heart's content. Simples!:)

Here we concern ourselves more with what people experience, not what science measures.

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 13:58
No, your views are as welcome as those of anyone else, as long as you don't try and present them as fact, in an attempt to dismiss the perfectly valid views of those who's opinions clash with your 'facts'.

Do you understand that?

AoS is a staunchly subjectivist forum, therefore staunchly objectivist views aren't welcome here. If you don't get that, then I suggest you find another site to post on where such views are welcome, and where you can post your 'proof videos' until your heart's content. Simples!:)

Here we concern ourselves more with what people experience, not what science measures.

Marco.

So let's get this right, as long as I say that you might see a difference that's OK, but if I say and prove in a way some will understand who are not experts in the field as fact then the thread will be closed. You guys are trying to lump video in with audio, audio can be highly subjective but is a different entity all together. Which you are failing to understand.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 14:05
Good post, Chris. Exactly my position on these matters!:thumbsup:

Too many folks place their trust in so-called 'experts', rather than in their own eyes or ears.

Marco.

So-called experts. Kevin Miller, the top man at ISF. David Mackenzie Hollywood and film authoring expert also ISF qualified, Samsung, LG engineers, and rooms full of leading ISF/THX experts.

Marco
09-08-2019, 14:08
I'm not failing to understand anything.

What you need to understand is that you're entitled to express any *opinions* you like, and back them up with whatever you like too, as long as you don't use it to dismiss/pooh-pooh the contrary subjective opinions of others, simply because you think you have evidence to prove them wrong, when in reality it isn't conclusive.

Do you get the difference? I hope so, as I'm fast losing patience explaining it. Most of us here pay little attention to what 'experts' think - we just use our own eyes and ears to form our conclusions on any aspect of audio (or video).

Marco.

Marco
09-08-2019, 14:11
So-called experts. Kevin Miller, the top man at ISF. David Mackenzie Hollywood and film authoring expert also ISF qualified, Samsung, LG engineers, and rooms full of leading ISF/THX experts.

Yes, but if what they state contradicts what I've experienced (and tested myself over years), why should I instantly dismiss my own experiences? That's not how a subjectivist thinks! And that's what 90% of this forum is populated with.

If you're going to survive here, you'll need to grasp that fact.

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 14:11
https://www.theinquirer.net/w-images/3aa984b6-e6e7-4edc-a791-0fe8deb11be0/0/facepalm3-540x334.png?1454319686

You see that chart mate, any difference in colour it moves, switching HDMI it stays the same. That is not science but cold hard fact and not my view either, it is the law of colour.

Marco
09-08-2019, 14:15
Stop posting words such as "cold hard facts", when said 'facts' simply aren't conclusive, or perhaps even relevant, in relation to this subject (and people's experiences of it), or it will be deleted. Any more of that, and you'll be out for a week.

Have you read the Ethos of this site? If not, I suggest you do, especially from post 5 onwards: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17-The-basics-of-Ethos

Marco.

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 14:40
So let's get this right, as long as I say that you might see a difference that's OK, but if I say and prove in a way some will understand who are not experts in the field as fact then the thread will be closed. You guys are trying to lump video in with audio, audio can be highly subjective but is a different entity all together. Which you are failing to understand.

Taking a bit of flak here Barry! :)
Don't let it get to you mate it's all friendly.

First up,
Video quality is important to me.
Trying to play the "can't we all just get along" card, just this once, I'll put forward this, and ask you to have a think about it.

Some people prefer a brighter picture on their TVs, others turn the colour up to make it look "richer", because it's their preference.
That's the subjective part?

Conversely: There are facts that are facts...that are facts...as I think your alluding to.

For myself, OLED was a gamechanger.
Some things are just better.
I've had mine ISF calibrated and yup, the pictures better for the calibration.
After calibration though, I was presented with a choice of 3 profiles, to accommodate my preferences, which I found interesting.

So I hear you on the picture calibration and standards.
Video quality and preference is subjective just as with audio IMO.
For music..."Is it like I am i sitting at the recording desk listening to this?" or "Feels like I am in the 4th row at a live gig!", usually works.

But...there's no universally subjectively preferred way (by all) of viewing video.
Again, that's the subjective part...

Can't really say it's unfair to say that colour grading in movies can completely change the experience of seeing the same film?
How many "Director's cuts" and anniversary reissues were put out where the picture was messed about with (grain removed, colours enhanced, DNR applied...etc) to outcry by the "purists"?
Crikey, just look at the Star Wars reissues with updated SFX!

but I'd ask the question - One can say this is the best picture because its "calibrated" - But I'd ask...the best to whom?
Only thing that matters to ME is how something performs...in my room...with my eyes...with my equipment.

No disrespect, but have to disagree with you one important point:
Its my opinion that Video IS subjective - just like audio!
It's the brain interpreting inputs, thats all it is. Same with music.


My point, if there is one :), is that the calibrated "standard" was created by people who CHOSE those settings,I'd ask you to contrast that with the nebulous concept of "artistic vision", bringing in aspects like colour grading, cinematography and the like.

And interestingly...and to your point...
Trying out different HDMI cables and finally settling on the "one" for me with my AV kit, I was able to clearly see these differences - and the differences the way different HDMI cables presented them.

...for the record. :)

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 14:51
You see that chart mate, any difference in colour it moves, switching HDMI it stays the same. That is not science but cold hard fact and not my view either, it is the law of colour.

Colour,
viewed differently by different eyes, depending on age, eye health and a zillion other things.
Understand what I'm meaning, again, not with any disrespect to your views.

Marco
09-08-2019, 14:52
Now *that* is the type of input, founded upon extensive personal (subjective) experience, which I'd take notice of far more than the views of any expert, no matter how 'factual', simply because as you rightly say:


Only thing that matters to ME is how something performs...in my room...with my eyes...with my equipment.


Me too. And I suspect that that thinking applies to the vast majority of us here!:cool:

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 15:11
So let us say you had a newbie join here, keen as mustard to spend ex amount of pounds on an HDMI cable, you guys are going to say go for it as it will make a difference? :scratch:

walpurgis
09-08-2019, 15:14
Well how far would he get without one?

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 15:14
Stop posting words such as "cold hard facts", when said 'facts' simply aren't conclusive, or perhaps even relevant, in relation to this subject (and people's experiences of it), or it will be deleted. Any more of it, and you're out for a week.

Have you read the Ethos of this site? If not, I suggest you do, especially from post 5 onwards: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17-The-basics-of-Ethos

Marco.

Maco, that is geared towards Audio which is highly subjective, video and video standards are not.

struth
09-08-2019, 15:15
no, its geared to THIS SITE.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 15:18
Taking a bit of flak here Barry! :)
Don't let it get to you mate it's all friendly.

First up,
Video quality is important to me.
Trying to play the "can't we all just get along" card, just this once, I'll put forward this, and ask you to have a think about it.

Some people prefer a brighter picture on their TVs, others turn the colour up to make it look "richer", because it's their preference.
That's the subjective part?

Conversely: There are facts that are facts...that are facts...as I think your alluding to.

For myself, OLED was a gamechanger.
Some things are just better.
I've had mine ISF calibrated and yup, the pictures better for the calibration.
After calibration though, I was presented with a choice of 3 profiles, to accommodate my preferences, which I found interesting.

So I hear you on the picture calibration and standards.
Video quality and preference is subjective just as with audio IMO.
For music..."Is it like I am i sitting at the recording desk listening to this?" or "Feels like I am in the 4th row at a live gig!", usually works.

But...there's no universally subjectively preferred way (by all) of viewing video.
Again, that's the subjective part...

Can't really say it's unfair to say that colour grading in movies can completely change the experience of seeing the same film?
How many "Director's cuts" and anniversary reissues were put out where the picture was messed about with (grain removed, colours enhanced, DNR applied...etc) to outcry by the "purists"?
Crikey, just look at the Star Wars reissues with updated SFX!

but I'd ask the question - One can say this is the best picture because its "calibrated" - But I'd ask...the best to whom?
Only thing that matters to ME is how something performs...in my room...with my eyes...with my equipment.

No disrespect, but have to disagree with you one important point:
Its my opinion that Video IS subjective - just like audio!
It's the brain interpreting inputs, thats all it is. Same with music.


My point, if there is one :), is that the calibrated "standard" was created by people who CHOSE those settings,I'd ask you to contrast that with the nebulous concept of "artistic vision", bringing in aspects like colour grading, cinematography and the like.

And interestingly...and to your point...
Trying out different HDMI cables and finally settling on the "one" for me with my AV kit, I was able to clearly see these differences - and the differences the way different HDMI cables presented them.

...for the record. :)

Can I ask who did the calibration and why you had it done please?

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 15:20
no, its geared to THIS SITE.

So again I ask if a newbie comes along and is going to pay say £100 for an HDMI cable the guys on here are going to say go for it as you will clearly see a difference?

Marco
09-08-2019, 15:20
no, its geared to THIS SITE.

Indeed... I.E the WHOLE of it.

Marco.

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 15:22
So let us say you had a newbie join here, keen as mustard to spend ex amount of pounds on an HDMI cable, you guys are going to say go for it as it will make a difference? :scratch:

No,
As a subjective forum we'd say "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, try it for yourself, see what you think."

Marco
09-08-2019, 15:24
So let us say you had a newbie join here, keen as mustard to spend ex amount of pounds on an HDMI cable, you guys are going to say go for it as it will make a difference? :scratch:

Well, if he or she asked for advice, they'd be given recommendations for cost-effective HDMI cables we use ourselves (to great effect) in our own systems. Read the relevant threads here, particularly from Gaz, to give you an idea.

They certainly wouldn't be told that it makes no difference whatsoever because an 'expert' says so!

Marco.

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 15:25
Can I ask who did the calibration and why you had it done please?

Honestly?

I'm happy to tell you and would recommend to everyone, he's top of his game and happy to share his expertise (YouTube 135K+ subscribers)

I had it done because my Sony A1E OLED was a game changer in image quality and wanted to exorcise the niggle that I could possibly make the picture quality even better.
Was purely a box ticking exercise and my thought was it couldn't do any harm.

But...
not sure if your question has the same well meaning intent behind it I had when I replied to your posts..
or frankly, if your just a Troll.

By the way, asking for a friend, are you the same Dr Winston O Boogie that was on Wigwam?

walpurgis
09-08-2019, 15:28
So again I ask if a newbie comes along and is going to pay say £100 for an HDMI cable the guys on here are going to say go for it as you will clearly see a difference?

They may do. If they had made comparisons that led them to think one cable was more satisfactory than another.

Marco
09-08-2019, 15:28
So-called experts. Kevin Miller, the top man at ISF. David Mackenzie Hollywood and film authoring expert also ISF qualified, Samsung, LG engineers, and rooms full of leading ISF/THX experts.

They may be experts in their chosen professional field, which I don't dispute, but they're not 'experts' at telling anyone here which HDMI cables they should use. *That* is the key bit you're failing to get.

You need to understand that on AoS we use what *WE* think works, regardless of it being endorsed, or otherwise, by an 'expert'.

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 15:59
Honestly?

I'm happy to tell you and would recommend to everyone, he's top of his game and happy to share his expertise (YouTube 135K+ subscribers)

I had it done because my Sony A1E OLED was a game changer in image quality and wanted to exorcise the niggle that I could possibly make the picture quality even better.
Was purely a box ticking exercise and my thought was it couldn't do any harm.

But...
not sure if your question has the same well meaning intent behind it I had when I replied to your posts..
or frankly, if your just a Troll.

By the way, asking for a friend, are you the same Dr Winston O Boogie that was on Wigwam?

I am Sgt Pepper on Wigwam.

Not trolling but genuinly interested as I know most of them.

You had your TV calibrated, but you say the HDMI your using improves that yes?

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 16:01
They may be experts in their chosen professional field, which I don't dispute, but they're not 'experts' at telling anyone here which HDMI cables they should use. *That* is the key bit you're failing to get.

You need to understand that on AoS we use what *WE* think works, regardless of it being endorsed, or otherwise, by any 'expert'.

Marco.

Yes they are as they are the ones who advise TV manufactures and HDMI standards on various questions regarding PQ.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 16:02
They may do. If they had made comparisons that led them to think one cable was more satisfactory than another.

Then that would be very bad advice.

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 16:03
Why do you ask?

Re-read any of my previous posts if unsure.
It's all open and in public knowledge.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 16:04
They may be experts in their chosen professional field, which I don't dispute, but they're not 'experts' at telling anyone here which HDMI cables they should use. *That* is the key bit you're failing to get.

You need to understand that on AoS we use what *WE* think works, regardless of it being endorsed, or otherwise, by any 'expert'.

Marco.

They know all HDMI cables are the same, and no matter what your eyes may tell you that is the truth of it. That chart I posted earlier is proof of what I am saying.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 16:05
Why do you ask?

Re-read any of my previous posts if unsure.
It's all open and in public knowledge.

You never mentioned his name? :)

OOPs crossed wires. If the HDMI is changing the colour on your TV as you think your ISF calibration for Day, Night and Gaming will be of no use because if it were true your colour gamut and gamma would have changed.

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 16:06
HDT....
Naa.

By the way thats the last post of mine I engage with you in a constructive nature.

Basically, ran out of arsedness for recycling the same old arguments again and again, and despite some effort on my part you have proven (to me) with your posts,

Your just one of THOSE guys.

Sorry Man.
Fill your boots, just not on my time.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 16:09
HDT....
Naa.

By the way thats the last post of mine I engage with you in a constructive nature.

Basically, ran out of arsedness for recycling the same old arguments again and again, and despite some effort on my part you have proven (to me) with your posts,

Your just one of THOSE guys.

Sorry Man.
Fill your boots, just not on my time.

One of Those Guys?

I only asked for the calibrators name, no offense intended.

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 16:11
Some offense taken.
Sorry, but that's just how you come across.

...and you know your being a wee bit naughty.

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 16:13
Some offense taken.
Sorry, that's just how you come across.

Like how, I only showed an interest in who did your ISF calibration as it is what I do but not to ISF standard I am afraid, way to expensive for the equipment they use ( although the I One Display Pro Colourimeter is excellent). I am not sure how that was offensive?

Here is a link to Kalibrate, they provide the meters and Chromapure software that would get anyone interest in the DIY route started. Run by Ricky J., mention me you might get a discount.;)

https://www.chromapure.co.uk/details.asp?id=24&type=blog

What is offensive is:
Being told you are not talking facts but opinion
Posts backing up my argument being ignored
Being threatened to be banned for trying to help people better understand the nature of HDMI and Picture quality after 10 years involved in the field.

walpurgis
09-08-2019, 16:22
Then that would be very bad advice.

You've missed the point.

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 16:40
DP

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 16:42
Like how, I only showed an interest in who did your ISF calibration as it is what I do but not to ISF standard I am afraid, way to expensive for the equipment they use ( although the I One Display Pro Colourimeter is excellent). I am not sure how that was offensive?

Here is a link to Kalibrate, they provide the meters and Chromapure software that would get anyone interest in the DIY route started. Run by Ricky J., mention me you might get a discount.;)

https://www.chromapure.co.uk/details.asp?id=24&type=blog

What is offensive is:
Being told you are not talking facts but opinion
Posts backing up my argument being ignored
Being threatened to be banned for trying to help people better understand the nature of HDMI and Picture quality after 10 years involved in the field.

Understand.
What did it was your your "tone" from your previous posts, wanted to engage with you on a technical/friendly level...but sadly...alas.

Understand you wanting to help people better understand HDMI, all good, but as Gallileo said,

"Measure what can be measured, and make measurable what cannot be measured."


And THATS where the issue came from.



But hey..ain't no thang. :)
Thanks for the Discount mention,already calibrated but appreciate the gesture. ;)

Dr Winston O Boogie
09-08-2019, 17:03
Understand.
What did it was your your "tone" from your previous posts, wanted to engage with you on a technical/friendly level...but sadly...alas.

Understand you wanting to help people better understand HDMI, all good, but as Gallileo said,

"Measure what can be measured, and make measurable what cannot be measured."


And THATS where the issue came from.



I have tried to engage at a friendly technical level, put forward all the evidence there is but unfortunately, people here do not want to know which is very frustrating. HDMI is a totally different ball game to audio cables and is well understood for it's capabuilitys or lack of. As I have said there is no room for error with this connection, it will not improve picture quality, be it colour, gamma, chroma or anything else. You and a couple of others are saying with my eyes in my room with my system i see a diiference, that is fair enough, what I have shown is there is none and that is an undisputable fact. I am not being a know all, big head, or anything else this is just the way it is. I am not being awkward or nasty or argumentative.

I suggest and this is only a suggestion some of you join AVForums, there is a wealth of knowledge there that will help you achieve a perfect picture or as near as damm it.

Here is part one of how to achieve a great picture on your TV as I posted earlier.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJP7rPC4Rb4

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 17:06
I have tried to engage at a friendly technical level, put forward all the evidence there is but unfortunately, people here do not want to know which is very frustrating. HDMI is a totally different ball game to audio cables and is well understood for it's capabuilitys or lack of. As I have said there is no room for error with this connection, it will not improve picture quality, be it colour, gamma, chroma or anything else. You and a couple of others are saying with my eyes in my room with my system i see a diiference, that is fair enough, what I have shown is there is none and that is an undisputable fact. I am not being a know all, big head, or anything else this is just the way it is.

Cool. :thumbsup:

Marco
09-08-2019, 17:10
They know all HDMI cables are the same, and no matter what your eyes may tell you that is the truth of it. That chart I posted earlier is proof of what I am saying.

Typical objectivist arrogance, which won't be tolerated. Save that blinkered, closed-minded crap for Wigwam, and the like, as it's not welcome here.

I have a different truth. What you're stating is proof of nothing other than (perhaps) the result of the particular set of circumstances/conditions prevailing at the time of the test, nothing else. It certainly doesn't disprove (to me) what I've found to the contrary, in respect of HDMI cables, in the context of my own system.

Now, I'm tired of your continual arguing/trolling. Learn to fit in here and respect the fact that it's subjective opinions and practical experience which matter most on AoS, not measurements. I'll help you out by giving you a week's holiday in order to reflect on that!

Marco.

Gazjam
09-08-2019, 17:16
I have tried to engage at a friendly technical level, put forward all the evidence there is but unfortunately, people here do not want to know which is very frustrating. HDMI is a totally different ball game to audio cables and is well understood for it's capabuilitys or lack of. As I have said there is no room for error with this connection, it will not improve picture quality, be it colour, gamma, chroma or anything else. You and a couple of others are saying with my eyes in my room with my system i see a diiference, that is fair enough, what I have shown is there is none and that is an undisputable fact. I am not being a know all, big head, or anything else this is just the way it is. I am not being awkward or nasty or argumentative.

I suggest and this is only a suggestion some of you join AVForums, there is a wealth of knowledge there that will help you achieve a perfect picture or as near as damm it.

Here is part one of how to achieve a great picture on your TV as I posted earlier.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJP7rPC4Rb4
Great video, thanks.
Been a member of AVFORUMS for longer than I can remember, great friendly place for all things AV.

Appreciate the recommendation though, and will follow by saying anyone interested in AV should take a look, it's great.

NRG
09-08-2019, 17:47
Surely HDMI suffers all the same issues as any high frequency twisted pair data bus, crosstalk, NEXT, impedance mismatch, materials, slew rate limiting etc. I canít see how all HDMI cables are therefore the same especially given the rather loose impedance spec of +/- 15ohms and the MHz frequencies involved.

Itís a real time interface as well with no error correction (ECC) on the RGB channels with separate clock and no retransmission. A bit like UDP on Ethernet except there is ECC there.

There must be uncorrectable bit errors before the digital cliff where the cable ceases to work as a transmission bus, correct me if Iím wrong but I donít believe the encoding scheme is capable of correcting all errors from what Iíve read. I can well believe an on spec. certified cable being an improvement picture wise to an out of spec. or on the Ďedgeí cable.

Marco
09-08-2019, 17:59
As usual, Neal. You talk a lot of sense - and from someone with more than a tenuous grasp on the technicalities of this subject.

That's the problem with rigid black and white thinking, like Barry's, and those of the 'experts' he lauds: it neglects to address the grey areas!;)

Marco.

struth
09-08-2019, 18:41
It's a bit like wearing belt and braces. If you can't trust your pants where are you. [emoji23]

Use the senses god or nature gave you.. Trust them.. They work better than anything man can make.

Marco
09-08-2019, 18:44
Amen on that, bro!

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
28-08-2019, 15:00
As usual, Neal. You talk a lot of sense - and from someone with more than a tenuous grasp on the technicalities of this subject.

That's the problem with rigid black and white thinking, like Barry's, and those of the 'experts' he lauds: it neglects to address the grey areas!;)

Marco.

Marco you have continuously likened Audio to Video showing your lack of knowledge on the subject of video. There are no grey areas in the laws of physics as the colour spectrum graph (CIE chart) shows. This is not open to debate or subject opinion but again the laws of Physics ..........this you can change or argue the toss over.

Marco
28-08-2019, 15:33
Did your recent holiday, and the reasons why it was given, teach you nothing?

The laws of physics do not conclusively disprove the fact that I can hear (and see) very clear and repeatable differences with various types of HDMI cables in my home-cinema system, as that's what my eyes and ears tell me. Picture quality in particular is notably improved, in terms of colour definition, detail and naturalness, with the best cables (and that doesn't necessarily need to mean expensive).

So give this up, Barry, unless you want another holiday - this time for MUCH longer! Any more posts like that, or any backchat over my warning, will guarantee it. Understand and accept that, in discussions such as this, AoS is an ultimately 'trust your senses over science', subjectivist forum, and if you don't like that, then find somewhere else better suited for your needs.

Marco.

Dr Winston O Boogie
28-08-2019, 20:34
Did your recent holiday, and the reasons why it was given, teach you nothing?

The laws of physics do not conclusively disprove the fact that I can hear (and see) very clear and repeatable differences with various types of HDMI cables in my home-cinema system, as that's what my eyes and ears tell me. Picture quality in particular is notably improved, in terms of colour definition, detail and naturalness, with the best cables (and that doesn't necessarily need to mean expensive).

So give this up, Barry, unless you want another holiday - this time for MUCH longer! Any more posts like that, or any backchat over my warning, will guarantee it. Understand and accept that, in discussions such as this, AoS is an ultimately 'trust your senses over science', subjectivist forum, and if you don't like that, then find somewhere else better suited for your needs.

Marco.

So a case of agree with me or I will ban you, even though I have given you indisputable evidence and scientific fact to the contrary of your wrong opinion.

Spectral Morn
28-08-2019, 21:00
Scarts made a big difference, better ones such as QED and Ixos, I preferred the QED ones, of course component cables made a difference as well.

When I switched to HDMI when the hardware allowed I started with Polaroid out of ADSA, but I felt I could do better, so I bought some AudioQuest Pearl HDMIs and there was to my eyes and ears an improvement in picture and sound. Not massive, but worth the investment.

None of my video kit is calibrated professionally, nor have I done it with a test DVD. Could it be better? Maybe but I am happy as is, set up to suit me.

Dr Winston O Boogie
28-08-2019, 21:10
Scarts made a big difference, better ones such as QED and Ixos, I preferred the QED ones, of course component cables made a difference as well.

When I switched to HDMI when the hardware allowed I started with Polaroid out of ADSA, but I felt I could do better, so I bought some AudioQuest Pearl HDMIs and there was to my eyes and ears an improvement in picture and sound. Not massive, but worth the investment.

None of my video kit is calibrated professionally, nor have I done it with a test DVD. Could it be better? Maybe but I am happy as is, set up to suit me.

Neil what some here do not understand is that if colour (PQ) was changed from one HDMI to another those colour points on a spectrometer would move, they don't. A bit like looking at the coulour of a distant star in our solar system it will be fixed for that particular star, however move on to a different star the colour spectrum will move dependingon that stars composition. This is a universal fact! It is not like audio.

Marco
28-08-2019, 21:12
So a case of agree with me or I will ban you, even though I have given you indisputable evidence and scientific fact to the contrary of your wrong opinion.

My opinion is my opinion. You're welcome to disagree with it, but you can't tell me it's wrong. So let's be clear: you're being banned because *you* refuse to allow ME to hold an opinion that's contrary to your scientific beliefs.

Try Hydrogen Audio. I think you'll like it there, as they LOVE "indisputable evidence and scientific fact", and worship at the altar of measurements. You clearly don't fit in here.

https://hydrogenaud.io/

:wave::wave:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
28-08-2019, 21:31
Neil what some here do not understand is that if colour (PQ) was changed from one HDMI to another those colour points on a spectrometer would move, they don't. A bit like looking at the coulour of a distant star in our solar system it will be fixed for that particular star, however move on to a different star the colour spectrum will move dependingon that stars composition. This is a universal fact! It is not like audio.

Then why did I see/hear an improvement?

Would you hold that scarts and component cables were also all the same?

Marco
28-08-2019, 21:33
He's gone, mate. Not worth the grief. You'd still be arguing with him come Doomsday!:doh:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
28-08-2019, 21:35
He's gone, mate. Not worth the grief. You'd still be arguing with him come Doomsday!:doh:

Marco.

I was curious if it was because HDMI is digital or did he feel that way with analogue scarts and component cables.

Marco
28-08-2019, 21:47
No, he felt that way because he was another typical arrogant know-it-all objectivist!

Marco.

NRG
28-08-2019, 22:02
Marco you have continuously likened Audio to Video showing your lack of knowledge on the subject of video. There are no grey areas in the laws of physics as the colour spectrum graph (CIE chart) shows. This is not open to debate or subject opinion but again the laws of Physics ..........this you can change or argue the toss over.


Heís gone but Iíll respond with I didnít know the AV industry had invented a bit perfect transmission protocol and interface that requires no error correction whatsoever...who knew? I bet the computer industry are grinding their collective teeth...

Marco
28-08-2019, 22:09
Neal, you'll never get rigid-thinking robots to entertain anything other than what they've been 'programmed to compute':rolleyes:

At one time I'd have argued with them and defended my opinion to the death, but now I just don't need the grief, as I know there's simply no point.

Marco.