Garrard 301 bearing upgrades??

[Bigbird]

Hi all, im going to be putting together a 301 for my next project . Its going to be a bells and whistles jobby, complete refurb with all the best bits i can find to compliment my Reed tonearm.

Theres lots of stuff out there about the benefits of changing some of the stock parts like the idler, eddy brake , oversized platters etc for modern equivalents that make it run smoother and quieter, but im wondering if anybody has any recommendations or knowledge on bearing upgrades?? Which are the best ones and who makes them as i can only find the SMD bearing on Peak hifi which at 600 notes seems expensive for a machined case and spindle and a couple of bushes?? All the others i can find info on are no longer being made

Thanks

Karl


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[Wakefield Turntables]

Karl, I'm at work right now. I've tried 4 garrard bearings. I will write some comments tonight.

[Bigbird]

Karl, I'm at work right now. I've tried 4 garrard bearings. I will write some comments tonight.

Thanks buddy, look forward to it


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[Beobloke]

I’m not sure if he’s still doing them, but by far the best bearing upgrade I’ve come across is the Martin Bastin option. He rescued mine after I was foolish enough to upgrade my perfectly good bearing with the original Analog Tube Audio Kokomo bearing which all but drilled a hole in the thrust plate.

I understand they’ve fixed this issue now but I wouldn’t try it again, personally.

Not tried the SMD one.



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[Vrajbasi]

I’m not sure if he’s still doing them, but by far the best bearing upgrade I’ve come across is the Martin Bastin option. He rescued mine after I was foolish enough to upgrade my perfectly good bearing with the original Analog Tube Audio Kokomo bearing which all but drilled a hole in the thrust plate.

I understand they’ve fixed this issue now but I wouldn’t try it again, personally.

Not tried the SMD one.



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I totally agree I have had lots of bearing upgrades, I dont want to name names of the ones I never got on with but the Bastin upgrade was one of the best just so musical Bastin offered true value and made perfect sense. The only other one is the crazy priced Shindo Bearing and Platter now this is a serious upgrade that really works.

To my ears you could do alot worse than a well sorted out original apart from above mentioned.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Right a few words. I have tried the Garrard 301, Garrard 401, Bastin Modified 301, and SPH bearing. I'm currently awaiting a Bastin modified 401. To my ears the SPH bearing was the best but it had problems with a scraping noise which I sorted out. The 301 and 401 bearings are excellent and should really be the only bearing that you should ever need. I've spoken to Terry at Loricraft, Matt at Audiograil and Martin Bastin and all say that Garrard bearings are excellent. I think the stock 401 bearing sounds better than stock 301 bearing, but the Bastin modded 301 bearing sounded better than the standard 301 bearing but not as good as the stock 401 bearing. I'm hoping the Bastin modded 401 bearing sounds better than stock 401 bearing. I currently run a stock 401 bearing in my Garrard 301. I'm currently waiting a fully serviced and modded Bastin Garrard 401 turntable so that should give me something else to experiment with!!! I've not heard any other bearings, Artisan Fidelity, Shindo, Peak Hifi and Classic Turntable all produce their own but I have not heard any of these. For what it's worth I would simply send your bearing to Martin Bastin and let him mod and service it. You can spend a lot of money on something that might not actually produce anything of any benefit. The Kokomo bearing upgrades are a no-no, I've seen a few bearings knackered, Audiosilente produce great 301 products and excellent thrust plates, you might want to do some research. So, to conclude I think a well serviced, Bastin modded bearing is probably as good as you'll get unless you want a massive platter. I have no knowledge or experience with oversized platters so you might need to do your own research with respects to bearings designed for this purpose. I hope these ramblings help a little.!!!

[Clive]

It's a shame the NWA bearing is no longer available. I found this to be excellent.

[DiveDeepDog]

Wot Andrew said, I've got a few DIY thrust pads, solid phosphor bronze being most successful.
The SPH was a good upgrade on original Hamertone 301 (funny how the grease bearings fetch a premium) but needed some coaxing to fit, and a little more work on fit n finish. Less than £200 its decent VFM.

I would expect the Peak bearing to be very good with a hardened spindle that will last as long as the original, but no experience.

A point I've not seen elsewhere is the platters. The non strobe is heavier than the strobed 301, which is heaver than the 401. Same casting (?)but they underwent more machining.

[Vrajbasi]

The main plus point from what I know about the grease bearing Garrard 301 is certainly not the bearing but the thigh torque motor which provides a great sence of drive. I have heard a hammertone 301with a oil bearing sounding just sublime it was by far the most musical 301 I have ever heard. If I were to go for it the greese bearing 301 with a shindo bearing and platter would be as far as one would need to go to obtain the Holy grail of 301's.

[Bigbird]

Thanks guys a few of the names mentioned have popped up but not martin bastin so i will maybe contact him for a chat. Can he build complete bearings or just mod the originals??

The woodsong audio bearing by chris harban has a torlon bearing and he claims its the best garrard bearing available , but he will only fit them himself for some reason so its not available to be sent out to me. Doesnt make good business sense to me but its his choice.

I like the idea of the CTC chassis as its reinforced around the bearing mount stop the slight flex that is in the original chassis. And the reviews of audiosilente idler wheels are very good. So it may be a bit of a mish mash of parts that i cobble together.

I havent seen any shindo parts but have heard his TTs are the best of the best alongside Artisan fidelity. But if the price is anything like AF ($3500+) for platter and bearing then its out of the question.


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[Beobloke]

I’d be intrigued to hear a Shindo modified unit but I think the oversized platter looks daft and, if you read his philosophies, they seem to be more based on mysticism, fairy dust and witchcraft than sound engineering principles!

[WESTLOWER]

It's a shame the NWA bearing is no longer available. I found this to be excellent.

+1 on that. It gave my 401 more authority and ease of presentation.
Nicely engineered thing indeed.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The main plus point from what I know about the grease bearing Garrard 301 is certainly not the bearing but the thigh torque motor which provides a great sence of drive. I have heard a hammertone 301with a oil bearing sounding just sublime it was by far the most musical 301 I have ever heard. If I were to go for it the greese bearing 301 with a shindo bearing and platter would be as far as one would need to go to obtain the Holy grail of 301's.

Very, very, rare, and extremely overpriced. The shindo bearing and platter can be more or less purchased from classic turntable company for a fraction of the price. Where do you think the idea came from for CTC to produce the bearings and platters?

[WESTLOWER]

The shindo bearing and platter can be more or less purchased from classic turntable company for a fraction of the price.

You've heard a back to back comparison?!

[Wakefield Turntables]

You've heard a back to back comparison?!

The company is based 1mile from where I live so it wouldn't be difficult. He also uses several differing materials so a back to back comparison is pointless you'd need the same materials shindo uses, additionally you'd need a solid cherry plinth and not the American cherry that Layers of beauty produce. The Japanese cherry wood is a different kettle of fish. You can drive yourself nuts trying to find "the best" bearing, or platter, all irrelevant, it's what sounds best to your ears.

[WESTLOWER]

The company is based 1mile from where I live so it wouldn't be difficult. He also uses several differing materials so a back to back comparison is pointless you'd need the same materials shindo uses, additionally you'd need a solid cherry plinth and not the American cherry that Layers of beauty produce. The Japanese cherry wood is a different kettle of fish. You can drive yourself nuts trying to find "the best" bearing, or platter, all irrelevant, it's what sounds best to your ears.

Ok, So Ray's CTC version isn't a valid comparison if it is substantially different to the Shindo.
Not justifying the cost of the Shindo, but it is what it is,... a Unique product.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Ok, So Ray's CTC version isn't a valid comparison if it is substantially different to the Shindo.
Not justifying the cost of the Shindo, but it is what it is,... a Unique product.

I have to disagree. He's producing a product which produces the same effects as the shindo. An enlarged platter and a beefed up bearing. Completely pointless if you ask me. Platter speed stability is more important to me rather than a fancy named platter costing £xxxxx I wouldn't buy a shIndo or CTC bearing or platter.

[WESTLOWER]

He's producing a product which produces the same effects as the shindo.

But is he really?
Thats a big claim and seemingly unproven as you haven't had the opportunity to do the comparison with the Shindo TT.

I don't doubt CTC product, but sweeping claims of this or that are without ground.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Depends on how you interpret what I've said.

[WESTLOWER]

Depends on how you interpret what I've said.

'He's producing a product which produces the same effects as the shindo.''



not much room for misinterpretation there..

[dwhistance]

I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who has installed the CTC bearing and brass platter, or indeed the similar Peak ones - I understand that they used to come from the same supplier but don't now. I think CTC can also do a bronze one which is probably more comparable with the Shindo but that is a "special order" item. I'm trying hard not to spend any money on hi-fi at the moment or I would be able to report on these myself.

David Whistance

[Bigbird]

I think the CTC platter is only 7mm diamter larger so hardly noticable to look at and works fine with a normal bearing, whereas the shindo ones looks really big(too big for my tatses) and probably needs a bigger bearing to cope. Lots of happy reviews with the CTC platter so it must have some merit ???


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[Wakefield Turntables]

I think the CTC platter is only 7mm diamter larger so hardly noticable to look at and works fine with a normal bearing, whereas the shindo ones looks really big(too big for my tatses) and probably needs a bigger bearing to cope. Lots of happy reviews with the CTC platter so it must have some merit ???


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buy a 5mm tenuto gun metal platter mat you'll get the same results. It's just extra mass and inertia, or fit a 401 motor To your 301 for more torque, swings/roundabouts et al.

[Mike Adams]

Umm I am pretty sure it is not that simple...And moving mass is not the same as mass alone.

I guess the oversized platter will have a significant amount more inertia than just the additional weight that the Tenuto will have...I am sure someone with more maths/physics knowledge than I can explain better...

As for the motors the grease 301 are meant to have a significant amount more torque than the 401 models. If I understand correctly its the shielding that the 401 models improved on.

(Ive just had my 401 Audio Grailed....And have been bothering Matt with a long list of questions...)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Umm I am pretty sure it is not that simple...And moving mass is not the same as mass alone.

I guess the oversized platter will have a significant amount more inertia than just the additional weight that the Tenuto will have...I am sure someone with more maths/physics knowledge than I can explain better...

As for the motors the grease 301 are meant to have a significant amount more torque than the 401 models. If I understand correctly its the shielding that the 401 models improved on.

(Ive just had my 401 Audio Grailed....And have been bothering Matt with a long list of questions...)

Your probably correct TBH I think we are going around in circles (like a platter)!

[Bigbird]

Has anybody tried a power supply with theirs? Have read that by lowering the voltage to the motor on the power supplies that you can reduce motor vibrations and noise and improve speed stability , bringing positve results ??


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[Clive]

Has anybody tried a power supply with theirs? Have read that by lowering the voltage on one of the power supplies that you can reduce motor vibrations and noise and improve speed stability , bringing positve results ??


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Been there....reducing voltage is attractive at first, I used a Variac but then I realised dynamics reduced.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Been down the reducing voltage route. All you need to get the best from a 301/401 motor is a very clean power supply going in. I use a PS Audio P10. Secondly a decent tachometer for platter speed stability I use the Phoenix PSU + Tachometer. No buggering around with variacs, DIY PSU's, fitting light bulbs. If you think your getting vibration from the motor into platter, decouple it.

[WESTLOWER]

Has anybody tried a power supply with theirs? Have read that by lowering the voltage to the motor on the power supplies that you can reduce motor vibrations and noise and improve speed stability , bringing positve results ??


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Had very positive results using a variac on my 401, no loss of dynamics. Took the voltage from 256v to 220v...
A great tweak for relatively small financial outlay.

[Bigbird]

Thanks guys lots to research and think about. As always with hifi, lots of conflicting views. I was kinda hoping thered be more concrete views on certain products so i could narrow down my options.


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[Clive]

Thanks guys lots to research and think about. As always with hifi, lots of conflicting views. I was kinda hoping thered be more concrete views on certain products so i could narrow down my options.


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Some of the seemingly conflicting views will be down to the individual decks being used, mains quality in these specific locations and individual plinths.... all significant variables.

[graham67]

I can highly recommend the Long Dog Audio quartz PSU. I have tried four different regenerators on my 401, all of which made an improvement, and the LDA is my favourite. IMO, a stable power supply is vital for getting the best from a Garrard .

[Patrick Dixon]

Has anybody tried a power supply with theirs? Have read that by lowering the voltage to the motor on the power supplies that you can reduce motor vibrations and noise and improve speed stability , bringing positve results ??

My grease bearing 301 is still in the box having been re-built by CTC a couple of years ago, but before that I used it with a Nigel Speed Controller and that made a big improvement. The NSC made less of a difference on my Thorens TD124II.

I think one of the reasons why you get such different opinions with these decks is that there are so many variations of plinth, mains supply, condition etc, as well as the normal variations of arm cartridge and different systems and ears.

[Andy831]

I have a Quartz locked Godolphin PSU which definitely was an improvement in my system over a stock out of the wall (dedicated radial spur for the Hi Fi) situation. I currently have a Longdog Audio quartz locked PSU on loan from Nick. This seems to be very similar to the Godolphin.

[Spectral Morn]

Thanks guys lots to research and think about. As always with hifi, lots of conflicting views. I was kinda hoping thered be more concrete views on certain products so i could narrow down my options.


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Unfortunately with Garrards its not there, ultimately it makes me want to pass mine on, because I don't know where to go next, and I can't afford to just throw money at it and hope.

Ask about a plinth, a million views all different.

Ask about...... pretty much anything :doh:

[Bigbird]

My grease bearing 301 is still in the box having been re-built by CTC a couple of years ago, but before that I used it with a Nigel Speed Controller and that made a big improvement. The NSC made less of a difference on my Thorens TD124II.

I think one of the reasons why you get such different opinions with these decks is that there are so many variations of plinth, mains supply, condition etc, as well as the normal variations of arm cartridge and different systems and ears.

Who manufactures the NSC ? Thats one i havent heard of.

I agree there are varying factors and tastes involved but surely there should be a general consensus that ,a) this bearing is good and b) that platter is good etc etc?

I think im settled on a Woodsong plinth as i like the style and craftmanship but thats the only concrete decision ive been able to make so faar.

Its so easy to find solid info on other tables but not Garrard




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[graham67]

Unfortunately with Garrards its not there, ultimately it makes me want to pass mine on, because I don't know where to go next, and I can't afford to just throw money at it and hope.

Ask about a plinth, a million views all different.

Ask about...... pretty much anything :doh:

For an item.such as the 401 which polarises opinion, that is fairly typical. All I can suggest is to try to listen to other setups and see what you like. I have had mine for many years and and never stop learning. Indeed it is amazing how good it can be, but it doesn't happen by accident and can take years ( in my case at least!) .
With second hand hifi, most items can usually be sold on for what you paid so you wont be throwing money away if you buy wisely and keep the mods that work and sell the one that dont.

[DiveDeepDog]

I think a lot of the variances between decks, plinths, power supplies are overstated. I've had 301 sat next to 401 with a pair of Roksan arms and very similar carts and while they are different if I walked in blind a few days later I'm not sure I could tell them apart?

For me plinths go from lightweight board sat on domes for the softest, most airy sound (Loricroft style) to hard and heavy slate which gives tight/hard /precision. Stacked ply sits between them.

Again, if you like what Garrard's do, you'll like them whatever plinth you use, the type used is just finishing touch.

To get effective advice, we need to know whats liked/disliked. The OP wants to put together an uber Garrard, I may have missed it but I don't know if there's a background of Garrard ownership, if not I'd live with a standard one and see what you'd like to improve rather than spend money.

The other thing, if you want rock solid speed stability, clean precision 'hi-fi' sound (rather than rose tinted clunky Garrard) you may be better off looking at vintage Japanse TT's? SP10, TTS8000, DL80 are obvious choices.

[Spectral Morn]

For an item.such as the 401 which polarises opinion, that is fairly typical. All I can suggest is to try to listen to other setups and see what you like. I have had mine for many years and and never stop learning. Indeed it is amazing how good it can be, but it doesn't happen by accident and can take years ( in my case at least!) .
With second hand hifi, most items can usually be sold on for what you paid so you wont be throwing money away if you buy wisely and keep the mods that work and sell the one that dont.

Unfortunately I live in the vintage audio sticks, I don’t think I have ever met another 401 owner where I live so it’s a non starter.

[Patrick Dixon]

Who manufactures the NSC ? Thats one i havent heard of.


It's a DIY build - search on the lenco heaven forum for all the info (and more) you could ever want.

[Bigbird]

It's a DIY build - search on the lenco heaven forum for all the info (and more) you could ever want.

Thanks


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[Bigbird]

I think a lot of the variances between decks, plinths, power supplies are overstated. I've had 301 sat next to 401 with a pair of Roksan arms and very similar carts and while they are different if I walked in blind a few days later I'm not sure I could tell them apart?

For me plinths go from lightweight board sat on domes for the softest, most airy sound (Loricroft style) to hard and heavy slate which gives tight/hard /precision. Stacked ply sits between them.

Again, if you like what Garrard's do, you'll like them whatever plinth you use, the type used is just finishing touch.

To get effective advice, we need to know whats liked/disliked. The OP wants to put together an uber Garrard, I may have missed it but I don't know if there's a background of Garrard ownership, if not I'd live with a standard one and see what you'd like to improve rather than spend money.

The other thing, if you want rock solid speed stability, clean precision 'hi-fi' sound (rather than rose tinted clunky Garrard) you may be better off looking at vintage Japanse TT's? SP10, TTS8000, DL80 are obvious choices.

Thanks , i have considered the other decks mentioned , and one of them may very well be on the list next time but for now i want to try a garrard. I love the looks and a few people ive spoken to have preferred it over the LP12 when they switched , which is what i have now.

Im under no illusion that it will have its own (rose tinted) charm, but from reading the like of artisan fidelity and numerous reviews of other products , it appears that adding in modern equivalent parts like idler, eddy, bearing/platter , power supplies etc, that garrards can be brought up to the standard of modern super decks.

So you can acheive all of that lovely stuff we all like, space, air, detail ,dynamics etc , whilst retaining some of the original charm and sonic signature.

I just figured that if i can build a top spec one from the get go then i wont be wondering what else i could have done better . Plus my Reed arm and Woodsong plinth(when i get it) will deserve that level of partnering .


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[Chas B]

Thanks , i have considered the other decks mentioned , and one of them may very well be on the list next time but for now i want to try a garrard. I love the looks and a few people ive spoken to have preferred it over the LP12 when they switched , which is what i have now.

Im under no illusion that it will have its own (rose tinted) charm, but from reading the like of artisan fidelity and numerous reviews of other products , it appears that adding in modern equivalent parts like idler, eddy, bearing/platter , power supplies etc, that garrards can be brought up to the standard of modern super decks.

So you can acheive all of that lovely stuff we all like, space, air, detail ,dynamics etc , whilst retaining some of the original charm and sonic signature.

I just figured that if i can build a top spec one from the get go then i wont be wondering what else i could have done better . Plus my Reed arm and Woodsong plinth(when i get it) will deserve that level of partnering .


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I think you will be very happy with your choice of plinth and arm partnering the 301. My own more humble 301 is sounding lovely with stacked ply plinth, FR64fx and 103r with matched SUT. I've done some tweaking to get where I am now but other than servicing the 301 itself is totally standard. I suggest giving yours a listen before doing anything else to it.

[Patrick Dixon]

I love the looks and a few people ive spoken to have preferred it over the LP12 when they switched , which is what i have now.
I had an LP12 just before I bought my 301. LP12s like 301s come in all sorts of guises, but mine was Cirkus, Lingo2, Ekos2, Troika, Prefix so fairly high spec but not like the current top of the pile LP12 I'm sure. The thing that struck me was that whilst Linn have spent years going on about PRAT and Timing, the 301 really does do PRAT and timing compared to an LP12.


Im under no illusion that it will have its own (rose tinted) charm, but from reading the like of artisan fidelity and numerous reviews of other products , it appears that adding in modern equivalent parts like idler, eddy, bearing/platter , power supplies etc, that garrards can be brought up to the standard of modern super decks.

So you can acheive all of that lovely stuff we all like, space, air, detail ,dynamics etc , whilst retaining some of the original charm and sonic signature.
I don't know about 'air', 'space' and 'detail' (I reckon the arm and cartridge contributes more there) but idler decks (especially Garrards) really do do dynamics. And if dynamics is your thing, you really should put a Decca on it.

What the Garrard doesn't do best (mine at least), is that between tracks 'I didn't know the stylus was in the groove' thing. Or maybe that's the Decca.

Anyway, enjoy.

[Patrick Dixon]

I suggest giving yours a listen before doing anything else to it.
I reckon that's good advice.

[Bigbird]

Thanks gents, maybe i will get Audio Grail or CTC to throw me together a nut and bolt resto and get a decent power supply and see how these i go from there.

I shall come back to pick your brains as and when

Cheers

Karl


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[sph]

I
Right a few words. I have tried the Garrard 301, Garrard 401, Bastin Modified 301, and SPH bearing. I'm currently awaiting a Bastin modified 401. To my ears the SPH bearing was the best but it had problems with a scraping noise which I sorted out........

The scraping noise was due to the use a thinner thrust pad. The issue has been addressed. It happened only on the last batch of bearings.

[Bigbird]

The scraping noise was due to the use a thinner thrust pad. The issue has been addressed. It happened only on the last batch of bearings.

The new batch of bearings for the Garrard and Lenco will be ready by early September. Both bearing types will come with the latest tweak which will see another level of sonic improvement to a already good bearing.

https://ibb.co/YW6DxWP

Do you have any technical info and pics that you could DM me please regarding the new bearings [emoji16]


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[Patrick Dixon]

Do you have any technical info and pics that you could DM me please regarding the new bearings [emoji16]

There is a load of info on the sph bearings on the Lenco Heaven forum. Might be worth trawling through that, although technical specifications and other people's opinions are never a substitute for trying it yourself.

[Bigbird]

There is a load of info on the sph bearings on the Lenco Heaven forum. Might be worth trawling through that, although technical specifications and other people's opinions are never a substitute for trying it yourself.

Agreed but it can point you in the right direction. Will be interesting to see what improvements have been made

Cheers


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