Preamps: Crayon CFA-1/1.2 - Hovland PH100/200 - Croft Micro 25 RS?

[Rosewind]

I know that a few members here own one of the above preamps. I would like to know what they upgraded from and why (if they know). Of course I would like to know if anyone has compared any of the above to my current unit, a Herron VTSP-2a line stage.

I am familiar with another contender an EAR 868PL as I have owned two of them (+ a line version only). I did not run them with my EAR 516 and Quad ESL 57s, however.

Can I get the sort of musicality that I have with my Herron VTSP-2A + an onboard MM/MC-stage with a Crayon, Hovland or Croft preamp?

I recently had an EAR 802 (onboard MM) in my system but it did nothing good in my set-up and receiving the Herron was something of a revelation.

I would like the luxury of a one box solution. So what do they sound like?

[Rosewind]

The Crayon CFA-1 really got my attention when I read a review of it where a Yamamoto amp was referenced. A Yamamoto CA-04 was among the contenders when I bought the Herron VTSP-2A.

[montesquieu]

Jake was running a Crayon at some stage worth contacting him. Rated it highly not sure what he had though, power or pre.

One off the wall suggestion - after much chasing around trying different preamps (tube and solid state) to replace the EAR 912 I recently placed an order for an Audiopax Model 5, which is being built for me in Brazil as I write. Worth reading up about. I managed to to audition an earlier version from 2004 which was a bit flaky (frequent left channel drop out plus a noisy PSU) so, sadly, it had to go back, but I was extremely impressed by it and it made an impact on me for weeks afterwards.

I later managed to audition its big brother, the Audopax L50, which has been the best preamp ever to visit here bar none. Out of reach price-wise though, so in the end I went for a new Model 5 which is in its fourth iteration (A4) with all the former 'SE' enhancements now included as standard. Allnic H7000V is now taking up phono duty from the 912.

[Rosewind]

Thanks Tom. I was wondering which amp you were going to get instead of the EAR 912. I think the Audiopax is out of my league. But will investigate.

The Allnic 7000 must be a good mm stage to oust the EAR 912. I see that you run it with Miyajima SUTs, too.

[montesquieu]

There are four inputs on the Allnic, two MM, one MC with internal SUT (four gain settings like the EAR) - the internal SUT is pretty good but I prefer the Miyajima externals into MM - and one MC with head amp. The head amp shows promise but isn’t a great match with my very low output / low impedance cartridges. Should be decent with something mainstream though.

[Rosewind]

Sounds like a really versatile phono stage. I am a one cart man, so my phono stage only needs to have one input. I would still like it to be switchable between MM and MC.

I looked at the Audiopax and s/h prices vary quite a bit.

[montesquieu]

Sounds like a really versatile phono stage. I am a one cart man, so my phono stage only needs to have one input. I would still like it to be switchable between MM and MC.

I looked at the Audiopax and s/h prices vary quite a bit.

The only s/h Model 5 I’ve seen available in UK is the one I trialled which seems to have been offered at different prices at different times but always from the same seller. But a few are available from Brazil or the US. Later models had a lot of refinements compared to early ones as well as much nicer cases! The former SE version comes as standard now, the only option available currently is balanced input/output which I’ve ordered for mine.

So many options for good phono stages. I heard an NVO recently that I was impressed by. 22 tubes!

[User211]

Jake was running a Crayon at some stage worth contacting him. Rated it highly not sure what he had though, power or pre.

One off the wall suggestion - after much chasing around trying different preamps (tube and solid state) to replace the EAR 912 I recently placed an order for an Audiopax Model 5, which is being built for me in Brazil as I write. Worth reading up about. I managed to to audition an earlier version from 2004 which was a bit flaky (frequent left channel drop out plus a noisy PSU) so, sadly, it had to go back, but I was extremely impressed by it and it made an impact on me for weeks afterwards.

I later managed to audition its big brother, the Audopax L50, which has been the best preamp ever to visit here bar none. Out of reach price-wise though, so in the end I went for a new Model 5 which is in its fourth iteration (A4) with all the former 'SE' enhancements now included as standard. Allnic H7000V is now taking up phono duty from the 912.There's an Audiopax showroom in Rio.

I'm going there in the not too distant future and will try and check it out.

[jandl100]

I've now got Jake's Crayon CFA-1 integrated amp.
As you'll recall, I had and loved a Herron VTSP-2 preamp for quite a while.

Impossible of course to directly compare a preamp and an integrated amp, but the Crayon is the best sounding amp I've so far owned. Limited power though at 28wpc. Obviously power limitation concerns don't apply to a Crayon preamp!

[montesquieu]

Crayon is the best sounding amp I've so far owned.

Wow - that's a big statement from the man who's had everything.



There's an Audiopax showroom in Rio.

I'm going there in the not too distant future and will try and check it out.

You can come over here and hear this one ...I doubt it's more than a couple of weeks away now.

[Rosewind]

It is hard to believe that there is a better amp out there than the Herring VTSP, but I am willing to suspend my disbelief. If only I could demo them. One way to demo the Crayon would be to sell off the Croft Riia R and invest the money set aside for the RS upgrade. Then I could listen to it both as an integrated anp and as a phono stage. The Audiopax is without phono stage, so not really viable.

A Croft Micro 25 RS could be a possibility. Still I would love to demo first.

[jandl100]

The Crayon CFA-1 has one problem, it's decent enough but not that special when it's cold.
Once it's been turned on (not just on standby) for about 6 hours it starts to noticeably improve, after 9 hours it blossoms into an amazingly subtle, transparent and holographic presentation.
You need to be willing and able to keep it switched on all the time - it's a class AB amp so it doesn't get very warm.

I wasn't very impressed with it for the first few days. I was switching it off at the end of every evening session.
Then it was raining and I was at home all day, and the amp stayed on all the time.
I recall suddenly looking up and thinking "wtf!!" - after just on 6 hours it was like a switch had been pressed and a decent amp had suddenly turned into something very special, it continued to noticeably improve for another 3 hours and then plateaued.
I keep it on all the time now.

[Rosewind]

I turn my valve kit off when I am not listening.
Good to know about the Crayon CFA-1. I may try to get one to test against the Herron in a direct comparison.

[hifinutt]

having never heard of crayon audio, i notice winters audio has one

https://www.wintersaudio.co.uk/ex-demo-part-exchange

[Rosewind]

Thanks for the heads up! If I take a chance with the Crayon, I can't allow myself to spend that much. So it will be a mk. 1, hopefully one that does not have the faulty board.

[jandl100]

:eek:
What faulty board?!?

---

Just out of interest, Peter, what got the Crayon onto your list? As obscure a piece of kit as ever there was, as far as I am concerned!

[Barry]

:eek:
What faulty board?!?

---

Just out of interest, Peter, what got the Crayon onto your list? As obscure a piece of kit as ever there was, as far as I am concerned!

Taken from a review of the Crayon CFA1.2 on the 6 Moons website: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/crayon2/1.html


Tech talk with Roland Krammer. "First of all the PCB is completely new. That's because half the old boards developed an eventual short between VCC and GND. Now our multi-layer board is made by Ilfa of Hannover, final board assembly by Taube Electronic of Berlin. These are two small hi-tech companies I can rely on because they already worked with us at Unitel on boards for Pandora International Ltd. That was a 26-layer PCB with a 1.500-pin ball-grid array Xilinx FPGA and assorted devilish stuff. I have tested five CFA-1.2 prototype boards for a long stress period with zero failure."

[jandl100]

Ah.
Hopefully mine is old enough that the fault would have shown up by now!

[Barry]

Yes indeed - but it does say that only half the boards developed faults. Yours must have one of the fault-free boards. :)

[Rosewind]

Jerry. Your signature put me onto it. Simple.

[ovlov854]

Hi Peter
I have a Hovland HP100 MC and it is a keeper

https://i.imgur.com/OniqGV2.jpg

I originally had an EAR 864 together with my EAR 8L6 and thought that combo was pretty special. I the used the Hovland with the 8L6 and that was pretty good too.
I now use it with my Sirius (Gamut) and over the last few days with Firebottle Monos
The Hovland benefits from good tubes and the best so far is the GE 5751 Black plate
triple mica especially with vinyl.
A very slight disadvantage is that the MC version is really the MM with the MC7 SUT apparently permanently wired and one cannot therefore switch between MC and MM.
There are masses of inputs so a competent engineer could wire a spare pair of inputs. If I were to buy one again :lol: fat chance, I would probably go for the MM version so that I could go for my own choice of SUT and one of the now superb range of MM cartridges available (good MC cartridges are now an arm and a leg)

[hifinutt]

Yes sounds delightful , lovely pre amp

[Rosewind]

Nice photo of the great preamp you have got there.

In the meantime I visited Veteran Hifi in Stockholm and fell in love with the owner's daughter - oh, strike that, ... the owner's turntable and tangential arm.

Photo of the main set-up (Cairn pre in the background (on top of an unconnected Sugden A21 SE integrated) into a 2 x 20 watt Tenbrock 20+20 red valve power amp and Harbeth HL5+ speakers. MC phono stage was Goldnote PH 10 with PSU + Lundahl transformer.
https://i.imgur.com/XWeWvxKl.jpg

Source was this beauty with a Miyajima Madake cart:
https://i.imgur.com/iAkXiSkl.jpg

[Rosewind]

Just received an answer from Mr Kramer about the issue with the Crayon CFA-1. As someone else pointed out, the board failures in the early batches of Crayon CFA-1 happened within the first two months, so any Crayon CFA-1s that have made it until now, will be in the clear. Better still, Crayon Audio will gladly service Crayon CFA-1s, should the need arise. Just thought that I would post this to allay any fears.

[jandl100]

https://media.tenor.com/images/13c393630dd10d36354113e4c8cbf1f6/tenor.gif

:)

[Rosewind]

:lol:

You are welcome, Sir!

On another note, I popped off the lid to my Herron VTSP2a and took out the valves. I made sure to insert them in the correct places again but now I have lost sound in the phono stage and almost all the inputs except the left channels of the CD and Tuner inputs. Hmmm.

Last Friday I brough the Herron to a guy who wanted to audition it and the computer replay [correction] sounded decidedly dodgy, dull and shut in with his humugous Line Magnetic 519a. I wonder if the valves had started to go already ... There were a mix of 4 x 6h23p [Russian "p"] e8 valves in the 4 valve poitions in the rear, and two JJ (Tesla?) goldpin 6922 valves in the two front positions. A good thing that I had already ordered 6 goldpin EH 6922 valves from Germany before I opened up the preamp. They will be here tomorrow.

I am not without music as I am running my Line Magnetic 502CA Dac straight into the EAR 516 while using the digital volume control in Jriver Media Center. It sounds fabulous.

[Rosewind]

6 new EH 6922 valves have been installed and the sound is back. Now for the burn-in and the arrival of a Pass Xono clone. I had to sell the Croft Riaa R to fund the completion of my First Watt F4 build by a pro. Thus I found myself without a phono stage and stumbled over a build of the Xono as MM only. After a bit of research on the internet, I made an offer which was accepted. So within a week I expect a "new" phono stage to arrive. I have not abandoned the Croft Riia RS, but it won't be until I have my First Watt F4 build back.

[jandl100]

Are the EH better sounding than your previous valve mix?
EH we're definitely the best I tried with the Herron pre by a long way.

[Rosewind]

All inputs work now. There were 2 JJ (Tesla?) 6922 valves + 4 x 6h23p [Russian "p"] e8 in the slots. I don't seem to detect any major changes to the sound, perhaps the new valves are a bit more "edgy" - and that could either be because they are new or because they are more open up towards the top. Which would not be a bad thing as it would save me from trying supertweeters with my Quad ESL 57s ...

When the Herron pre played through the Line Magnetic 519a the sound was darker and duller than when we used the Line Magnetic 519a as an integrated amp. So perhaps the old valves were on their way out or they were just darker in their tonality. Or we witnessed some sort of amp mismatch (impedance?).

I will let the valves run for around 50 hours and then schedule another listening test with the Line Magnetic 519a to see what gives. I actually went there the first time to sell the Herron pre to get my hands on a KR P135mc preamp. But that did not happen, of course, and that is probably not a bad thing.

[Rosewind]

So, all this has ended with the purchase of a Van den Hul "The Grail" - not where I expected to spend money. It was between a Croft Riaa RS and "the Grail". I hope this will be my last phono stage.