Musical mm-cart to be used with a Croft Riaa RS?

[Rosewind]

I have a Croft Riaa R that I am going to upgrade to RS status this coming September.

This decision has made me wonder if an mm-cart could be found that would be able to give me much of what I have with my Benz Micro Gullwing SLR.

I have never really used mm-carts in the past but with an mm-stage as good as a Croft Riaa RS, perhaps I won't miss very much if I find a nice one. I have only owned 4 carts - well 5 counting in a Stanton mm on the turntable I shared with my brother until 1983:
- Ortofon MC200 (still around somewhere)
- Ortofon MC 30 Super ii (given to a friend)
- Denon 103R (sold off)
- Benz Micro Gullwing SLR (bought in 2017)

Any suggestions for a nice mm if I go that route?

[Opti-cal]

Hi Peter,

some nice kit you have.


Not sure you're going to get that close to the Benz Micro with most MM carts but I would suggest auditioning the following:


- Nagaoka MP-200 and 300 - Great all round sound, very balanced. Good bass.

- Audio Technica AT-VM750SH (some find it bright but in the right setup its lovely) - I think they do a micro line version that is superb too.

- Goldring 1042 - Quite warm and musical. Maybe too warm in some systems.

- Ortofon 2M Black - Neutral with very good detail. Has a "lively" sound occasionally bright.

- The Vessel R3SM - Never heard this one but seems to get high praise (although a little more expensive).


I've owned (or heard for long periods) all of the above apart from "The Vessel R3SM" and would confidently say one of them would float your boat.

Used them between Linn LP12 (Ittok III), Pro-ject 2.9 wood and an Audio Technica LP5 turntables, so checking the compliance with your Thorens is certainly a good idea.

Sorry I cannot advise anything specific to your turntable/arm, I'm sure there are those here that can though.

Good luck.

Chris

[mikeyb]

You could try the Shure 55/Jico SAS that I'm selling, very close to 2M Black for under £150 [emoji6]

[graham67]

Also add the Audio Note IQ2, IQ3.
Personally i really like the at 150Sa which is virtually identical to the 750SH mentioned above.

[Opti-cal]

Might also be worth looking at Sumiko Amethyst. Haven't heard one myself but any other Sumiko carts have always sounded good to me.

Recommendation for the Audio Note IQ range looks a good one. Aren't they Goldring's built to AN specs?

Had the AT150mlx also, a really great cartridge. Sold it with a TT - wish I hadn't.

[Rosewind]

Interesting suggestions! Thanks.

I am aware of Benz Micro lHIGH MC options also but I doubt that I will be able to pay for those at the moment. My (fairly) local dealer has an Acoustical Systems Fideles at around 700£ - quite a bit more than the Sumiko, Ortofon, Audio Note and Audio Technica carts you mention.

I will have to see which budget I will have at my disposal. Then I will have to see if I can listen to them.

[Yomanze]

Reson Reca if you can find one, probably Audio Note IQ if not, or maybe a Roksan Corus as another improved Goldring G1042 cart.

[montesquieu]

MikeyB's M55 Jico fits the bill and would be better than most suggestions here.

AN IQ2 or IQ3 if you want to spend a lot more money.

[Wakefield Turntables]

B have to agree the m55 and jico stylus c combo is hard to beat you could easily shift it on

[Bigbird]

Just a couple of other curveball suggestions to throw out there that havent been mentioned. The new top of the range MOFI cart seems to get a lot of good press but ive never heard one. Soundsmith carts are also very good. Just not sure if these could quite get to the Benz level?? Why not invest in a step up instead of cart?


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[Kvaal]

I suggest that you have the original, lightweight arm on your Thorens. It is made for high-compliance styli, not the average mc-pickup, which is low-compliant. Then the Shure-advices here are the best. I've had the best experience with the Shure M 95 in a lightweight arm, so it is my advice. The body is similar to the popular Shure SC 35 and the Shure V 15 II so you can count on them as well.

[struth]

hard to get a mc sound from a mm. my b&o sp1 cart manages it quite well but they are rare and pretty old. I got lucky and got mine from Tom.. Very pleased with it I am.

[RobbieGong]

The 2M Black is mc like in my experience and reveiws have expressed as much.

It is a fabulous cart, detailed, holographic, airy, live etc etc
The main issue with it for me and others is the absolute need for it to be set up meticulously which can be a right PITA to nail.
Once you have though its a cracker

[thingfish]

I heartily recommend a Goldring 1042. MM

[Barry]

Agree re. the Goldring MM. Nagaoka also make very acceptable MM cartridges.

Grant has mentioned B&O. I'm unfamiliar with the SP1 but do have an SP6, and can recommend that and others in the series (SP8, 10 and especially the 12 and 14). Their later MMC20 series are equally fine cartridges, though long out of production.

Another 'vintage' MM cartridge with which I have great affection is the AKG P8ES, but again long out of production.

[hifi_dave]

If it was my money, I would be looking at a high output Hana to go with the Croft.

My customers enjoy that combo.

[worrasf]

Not strictly MM but I would also throw in a Decca to your list - especially with the Croft. Glenn is very much a Decca fan boy - in fact I bought my Supergold from him after it came back from a John Wright service. It works superbly with my Croft 25RS/7 monos to the extent I have put my Denon S1 up for sale.

+1 for the AKG. I have a NOS AKG P8ES supernova which is a definite keeper.


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[fiddlemaker]

Not strictly MM but I would also throw in a Decca to your list - especially with the Croft. Glenn is very much a Decca fan boy - in fact I bought my Supergold from him after it came back from a John Wright service. It works superbly with my Croft 25RS/7 monos to the extent I have put my Denon S1 up for sale.




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Couldn't agree more.
Pour moi, nothing beats a Decca if you have a compatible arm.

[Barry]

Couldn't agree more.
Pour moi, nothing beats a Decca if you have a compatible arm.

I would agree, having five Decca cartridges of various types/vintages and having extolled in the past the virtues of Decca. But they are cantankerous beasts at the best of times; getting the best out of them requires significant patience and care. If you can do that, then you will be rewarded with a presentation that no other cartridge can achieve. But they are not for the noviciate.

[Rosewind]

I have a list of excellent choices now thanks to you. If we start with the most expensive ones - and I will include a high output MC cart also - the ones that appeal the most to me are:

Benz Micro Ebony H (output = 2.5 mV) - mostly because I have a Benz cart now
Sumiko Amethyst (output = 2.5 mV)
Shure V15 - which version? + other Shure carts
Goldring 1042 versions that improve on the original: Reson Reca / Roksan Corus
Ortofon 2M Black
Decca carts ... which one and with my Thorens TP16 arm? I am tempted to return to a unipivot arm (Morch UP4, Hadcock), but that is another story.
Audio Technica 150 + 750 which versions?
Music Hall Mojo?

[Jimbo]

I have tried many MC and MM cartridges with my Croft 25R+ and without doubt the 2M Black is the best performing cartridge by far. It was way better than most MC cartridges I have tried.

The Decca Blue cartridge was also no match to the 2M in almost every respect. The high output of the 2M and its vivid "live" sound are truly outstanding with the Croft 25R+ ( This is similar to the RS as it has the same line stage). I know the RIAA RS though has the separate PSU and better phono stage implementation so may sound even better with a 2M Black. Even the live immediate sound of the Decca cannot match the 2M Blacks stunning dynamics and delivery.

If you do decide to go the 2M Black route maybe try and get a used cartridge and have a Fritz Gyger S stylus fitted by Holistic Audio in Holland. This will give you a very special cartridge indeed which would be very difficult to better with any MC never mind MM cartridge. I am recommending this as a Croft user and from my own personal experience.

[Rosewind]

Actually, I have found a little used 2M black locally at around 2/3 of a new cart. l could use that for a while and then have a new stylus fitted later. Tempting.

[Barry]

I have a list of excellent choices now thanks to you. If we start with the most expensive ones - and I will include a high output MC cart also - the ones that appeal the most to me are:

Benz Micro Ebony H (output = 2.5 mV) - mostly because I have a Benz cart now
Sumiko Amethyst (output = 2.5 mV)
Shure V15 - which version? + other Shure carts
Goldring 1042 versions that improve on the original: Reson Reca / Roksan Corus
Ortofon 2M Black
Decca carts ... which one and with my Thorens TP16 arm? I am tempted to return to a unipivot arm (Morch UP4, Hadcock), but that is another story.
Audio Technica 150 + 750 which versions?
Music Hall Mojo?

What is your budget Peter?

[dwhistance]

You might also try a Cartridge Man Music Maker. I have a mk2 rebuilt into a mk3 by Len Gregory which I really like, though it’s looks will never impress anyone. Re Decca’s I’m using a C4E at the moment which I love, all the dynamics you expect from a Decca with excellent tone to boot.
David Whistance

[Rosewind]

Budget: a very good question. It depends on whether I am going to sell or trade in my Benz Micro Gullwing. That is why the carts cost from 200£ and up to 1500£.

[Smegger68]

Keep the Gullwing and buy a nice SUT instead of a MM cart?

[Opti-cal]

There is something about the sound of an MC via an SUT into an MM input. It's my favourite configuration compared to a lot of dedicated MC inputs I've tried.

The sound seems to have more texture yet more delicacy if that makes sense. Maybe it's having separate gain stages which does this but whatever it is I like it.

Plus the gulwing is tops.

[paulf-2007]

I had a Benz wood sl and decca C4e amongst others but a Shure ultra 500 betters all. High compliance too.

[ElTwang]

I'm a long time fan and user of the Music Maker mk3 cart. It works very well with my Spacedeck and Croft RIAA RS. This spring I also got my RS upgraded by Croft with Rike caps.
Here, quite many months after, I still find it a very good upgrade (cleaner signal, more transparent sound in the lower mids that reveals a little more detail and improves transients and soundstage).

https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb/AAifnFwoDEbc0BqnIQF8_cluRlQzcujNaNN2YZ2RH1JQM3iKfC VVISFrjaBIGA2xAx5aNJtX4il1VEjClfI3H3zW1GUxIcNvHgHh 9byjcyOHJHRH_6s6DEAbVzpJrWqfgFbT_rFluS4zY0kXc-Nmwm8KqBTVG1RfJ1ktrc8f6vmw_Ko-p8JMi58YrkEvdhmTvv5SJYreiJ22v-tDQSR07mf0hsX4webj2-wiN9Gvjh-Dk9vx9KpbqYdYcvJtQR434nqpFAGGdRCBaefnU1npm1988sCtJ XpSfP9VF51hTCjocAXFXyEaz1W2KnmdiMKHUG1QGMiQ_1jehOS DdRxOQHgp/p.jpeg?fv_content=true&size_mode=2

https://previews.dropbox.com/p/thumb/AAgHVjKMHcBb_ouaz6v9xKE6n9lpV060SKyQS6tPPflzLoQIQ0 lSYxzSPDFspDz3mFIsdFByG3hkL4zbO8tlcJoMpZcCjRk5khnY tCGPwj2YyY9W_57cqxk9aWAh9GDWFwNtoxn_4SosRWIIIdqVMq EFx7Fj8UjBmEcYDxQPabdf8RM75P-LwX5VfXJG2GemtSRUg33RWXV6RbZiVU7QDvP6lNoQSbYmVNR8q PcRk2bN6h1k-VHg6IyqwFvJlgKhf5ILwcSTkc99UfX4HLQz8k7yqyQZjeQvATS 39ZsSqYEmF-ZtRITOaWj15-LNRWsGFDzzaw6jp2awqv29mDviq3v1/p.jpeg?fv_content=true&size_mode=2

[WESTLOWER]

+ 1 on the Music Maker

[Rosewind]

I have added the Music Maker cart to my list of options. A Rike caps upgrade will be considered once I know what sort of price range we are speaking about. As for the SUT/headamp suggestion, I have a rather impressive list of candidates that all hover around the 6-700£ price mark:

A Danish producer of a hand-wound SUT that emulates the Tribute SUT
A Silk Step up transformer from Thailand
Haufe t890 or another Haufe transformer
Lundahl transformers by many producers
Arkless headamp