How many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of with their ears?

[magiccarpetride]

A very close audiophile friend of mine started making frequent visits to my house ever since I've acquired a pair of Maggies (Magneplanar speakers). When paired with sufficiently high quality audio chain, these speakers tend to offer stunning, breathtaking life-like quality to the sound reproduction.

Last time he dropped in for a listening session, we were both oohing and aaahing over the nimbleness, sharpness, and the sheer speed of Maggies. The amount of transparent air these speakers can push within a millisecond interval is almost ungodly.

Anyway, to cut the long story short, what happened in the meantime is that I've upgraded my audio chain with a Beresford Caiman DAC. At around the same time, I've obtained some rare recordings that both my friend and I have been coveted for a long time. So I called him up to come for a listening session, to check out the new music. But, unbeknownst to him, I decided to play a little experiment -- I decided not to reveal to him that I've upgraded my audio chain. So I hid the new DAC behind some decorative items. We then sat down and listened to my newly acquired music.

The listening session was great, many a nostalgic comment was exchanged, and so on.

The very next day I called him again, all excited, and told him that my new DAC had arrived, and would he like to pop by and audition it. Sure enough, he was game, and so, on that same evening, he plopped himself into an armchair in my living room. We listened to the exact same music, at the exact same volume.

This time, however, he was totally bowled over by the clarity and the resolution and the richness of sound! He definitely noticed an enormous improvement in the bass, the highs, the transparency, the soundstage. In a word, he was blown away.

And I don't blame him -- each time I listen to this DAC, I'm blown away too. But my question is: how come he didn't notice ANY difference the day before, even though we were listening to the exact same configuration? How come only when he was able to actually SEE the new DAC with its cool blue lights on, was he able to finally HEAR the amazing improvement in the sound quality?

And now for the uneasy question: do we all work like that? Do we all basically listen to reproduced music primarily with our eyes, obtaining the signal that then goes to our intellect and then the intellect informs/dictates to the ear what should it hear?

[DSJR]

I don't think we do this so much here, but many audiophools, especially wealthy far-eastern ones, buy with their eyes and the more blingy and expensive it is the better..

I shall say no more as there's a rant coming on.................

[Themis]

Well, yes, eyesight certainly influences my mood. And my mood influences the way I listen to music.
But... in the end of the day, I don't think it obscures much my judgment for the sonic signature. And, even if it does, the illusion can't last longer than a few hours. ;)

[DrMartin]

All I can say to this is that when I first 'upgraded' my system with the Cambridge DAC magic earlier on in the year I sat down and was impressed by the row of blue LEDs - and then the piercing, shrieking trebble that poured out of my spekears left me in no doubt that this was far from a pleasant experience. So my eyes certainly had no part to play in my overall asessment of that particular change.

[REM]

Expectation and self fulfilling prophecy.

The first time your friend was invited to simply listen to the music, which he did, the next time he was invited to listed to the system, which he did.

At least he enjoyed both experiences, which is a good thing, something to :) about.

[AlanS]

Your friend displayed his true reaction to your DAC on his first visit. He didnt think about it or notice it - sorry.

[Stratmangler]

Your friend displayed his true reaction to your DAC on his first visit. He didnt think about it or notice it - sorry.

That's a rather cynical viewpoint you have.

I have a SB3 and use a Caiman with it.
I can live with the sound of the SB3 on it's own, but it is quite coarse sounding when compared to the Caiman.

As Alex has a Squeezebox Receiver/Controller combo I'd expect something similar to be the case.

[AlanS]

That's a rather cynical viewpoint you have.



Judgemental comment?
The first session was without influence or preconception. If the DAC was that noticeable he would have said something. When the thing was mentioned he like all good friends congratulated magic on his excellent choice of DAC. It was a dreaded blind test like it or not.


I have a SB3 and use a Caiman with it.
I can live with the sound of the SB3 on it's own, but it is quite coarse sounding when compared to the Caiman.

As Alex has a Squeezebox Receiver/Controller combo I'd expect something similar to be the case.

I am sure this is true for you. But has nothing to do with magic's friends first session reaction to the same Dac on ssession two.

[Ali Tait]

Couldn't help thinking of the Owston do's.Not much bling in components nailed to a bit of wood! :lol:

[Ali Tait]

Unless that kind of thing floats your boat of course..

[Stratmangler]

Judgemental comment?
The first session was without influence or preconception. If the DAC was that noticeable he would have said something. When the thing was mentioned he like all good friends congratulated magic on his excellent choice of DAC. It was a dreaded blind test like it or not.



I am sure this is true for you. But has nothing to do with magic's friends first session reaction to the same Dac on ssession two.

Fair comment on both counts.

[SteveW]

Well.. what sort of snidey friend are you?

With mates like you, who needs ... Insert noun or adjective here.

I know you were trying to make a point, but at what cost trust?

[magiccarpetride]

Well.. what sort of snidey friend are you?

With mates like you, who needs ... Insert noun or adjective here.

I know you were trying to make a point, but at what cost trust?

I was just curious. Often times I think about these things, how we perchance tend to psyche ourselves into believing more what says on the menu than what we're actually tasting.

I didn't mention this to my friend, and didn't want to put him on the spot. His reaction on both accounts was perfectly genuine, so he is blameless.

There are many possible explanations regarding why he didn't detect any changes on the initial listening. Maybe he was tired, or maybe he was focused on something else. Or maybe there really isn't that much of a difference, 'objectively' speaking, between the two DACs?

If someone pulled this stunt on me (and who knows, maybe they already have:), I wouldn't feel offended and violated. It's all in the good spirit of friendship and curiosity.

No audiophiles got hurt while preparing this post;)

[magiccarpetride]

That's a rather cynical viewpoint you have.

I have a SB3 and use a Caiman with it.
I can live with the sound of the SB3 on it's own, but it is quite coarse sounding when compared to the Caiman.

As Alex has a Squeezebox Receiver/Controller combo I'd expect something similar to be the case.

Absolutely. To my ears, the difference between the two DACs is similar to the differences between night and day.

But, to continue in a cynical vein, I'm perfectly open to the possibility that I'm listening and comparing the two with my eyes, not with my ears.

[magiccarpetride]

Your friend displayed his true reaction to your DAC on his first visit. He didnt think about it or notice it - sorry.

There is some merit to what you're saying. If the DAC is indeed such a 'stop the presses!' item, he should've noticed, right?

[AlanS]

I think the thread could have been titled "listening with the thinking side of the brain rather than the feeling side"
Magic are you thinking about your Dac rather than chilling and feeling da muzic.

[magiccarpetride]

All I can say to this is that when I first 'upgraded' my system with the Cambridge DAC magic earlier on in the year I sat down and was impressed by the row of blue LEDs - and then the piercing, shrieking trebble that poured out of my spekears left me in no doubt that this was far from a pleasant experience. So my eyes certainly had no part to play in my overall asessment of that particular change.

I don't get this. First, you say that your eyes were fixated on the row of blue lights, and then you say that your eyes certainly had no play in your overall assessment of that particular change. Kind of a contradictory, illogical statement, don't you think?

[magiccarpetride]

I think the thread could have been titled "listening with the thinking side of the brain rather than the feeling side"
Magic are you thinking about your Dac rather than chilling and feeling da muzic.

I am chilling and feeling da DAC!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

With the greatest respect and a large portion of empathy I think you are over thinking it, I have posted threads about my feelings towards placebo effect and others have too... At the end of the day your mate was sharing your enthusiasm for your new bit of kit. You told him it was better so to him it was. Try the same test on a non audiophile mate ... Might be poilte and tell you it sounds better... But you should still be able to tell from his reponse if it is just politeness.
Of course there is always a chance the caiman was just sounding better after that extra day??? You have been quite observational in that respect... Did that extra day make any odds to you?

[markf]

I suspect that your new DAC is still burning in and your friend heard the
improvement that 24 hrs gave to the unit.

[DrMartin]

I don't get this. First, you say that your eyes were fixated on the row of blue lights, and then you say that your eyes certainly had no play in your overall assessment of that particular change. Kind of a contradictory, illogical statement, don't you think?


You don't 'get' anything really do you?

Read it again and try to realise why you are wrong - yet again.

Stop trying to be clever: you really aren't cut out for it.

I wasn't going to bother replying to this post when I saw your name against it but, in a gesture of goodwill, I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt.

I wont bother replying to any more of your threads.

[magiccarpetride]

You don't 'get' anything really do you?

Read it again and try to realise why you are wrong - yet again.

Stop trying to be clever: you really aren't cut out for it.

I wasn't going to bother replying to this post when I saw your name against it but, in a gesture of goodwill, I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt.

I wont bother replying to any more of your threads.

Good riddance;)

[magiccarpetride]

I suspect that your new DAC is still burning in and your friend heard the
improvement that 24 hrs gave to the unit.

That could very well be the case. I would argue, however, that the difference between the SB3 DAC and the Caiman are way more drastic than the difference between the 23 day burn-in Caiman and the 24 day burn-in of the same Caiman.

[magiccarpetride]

With the greatest respect and a large portion of empathy I think you are over thinking it, I have posted threads about my feelings towards placebo effect and others have too... At the end of the day your mate was sharing your enthusiasm for your new bit of kit. You told him it was better so to him it was. Try the same test on a non audiophile mate ... Might be poilte and tell you it sounds better... But you should still be able to tell from his reponse if it is just politeness.
Of course there is always a chance the caiman was just sounding better after that extra day??? You have been quite observational in that respect... Did that extra day make any odds to you?

With each passing day, the Caiman sounds better and better. Still, the day-to-day difference is not nearly as drastic as the difference when switching from the SB3 DAC to the Caiman.

I have pretty high level of self-esteem and I'm pretty sure that I cannot be tricked into a placebo, but still, I'm open to any such possibility. I keep questioning myself (overthinking it, as you say): are the differences I'm hearing so consistently really there, or am I psyching myself into hearing them?

Give you an example: couple of nights ago, while listening to Don McLean's "American Pie", started hearing some out-of-place mechanical sound that was interfering with the playback. At first thought that it's something coming from the kitchen, but when pausing the song, the sound stopped as well. Continuing the playback, the sound was there.

You know what it was? McLean's Martin D28 was ringing so realistically, that it was giving off those metallic overtones all of us guitar players know so well. However, even if I know that Martin acoustic sound so well, I failed to recognize it on the track. I failed to acknowledge that it could be a legitimate, integral part of the recorded performance. Why? Because I've never heard it reproduced before. That sound seems to be one of the most difficult ones to reproduce on a home stereo.

Well guess what -- apparently thanks to the Caiman, we have now licked even that difficult territory! The metallic ringing overtone emanating from a savagely played steel string Martin, that almost sounds like some pots and pans are banging in the kitchen, is now clearly audible on my system.

So the real question is: how come I didn't hear it before? I was playing back "American Pie" as part of my early auditioning of the Caiman, and the metallic overtone of the Martin did not catch my ear then. It is only now, after three weeks of burn-in, that it became clearly audible. So, either I'm imagining things, or something is afoot:trust:

[markf]

"That could very well be the case. I would argue, however, that the difference between the SB3 DAC
and the Caiman are way more drastic than the difference between the 23 day burn-in Caiman and the 24 day burn-in of the same Caiman."

That's all well and good,but your friend didn't hear the difference between the SB3 DAC
and the Caiman, he heard the Caiman with x hrs burn in then the Caiman with x + 24hrs burn in.

[Spectral Morn]

"That could very well be the case. I would argue, however, that the difference between the SB3 DAC
and the Caiman are way more drastic than the difference between the 23 day burn-in Caiman and the 24 day burn-in of the same Caiman."

That's all well and good,but your friend didn't hear the difference between the SB3 DAC
and the Caiman, he heard the Caiman with x hrs burn in then the Caiman with x + 24hrs burn in.

....and that is exactly why comparing items in a state of still running in, is a waste of time. The sound is a moving target and hard to pin down. Only when run in is achieved can you start doing serious comparisons.



Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Alex and Martin,

Let's keep things friendly, eh? Cheers! :)

Marco.

[Joe]

I'm sure placebo effect, wishful thinking, expectation bias and so forth play a huge part in the differences/improvements we think we hear when we make system changes. If you're 'listening for differences' you'll probably hear them, and if you've parted with hard cash you won't want to think it's been wasted.

Brining in a second opinion is problematic, because people have different preferences in sound; one person's 'lively' is another person's 'over-bright', one person's 'neutral' is another person's 'dull'. Plus, of course, most people want to be polite and will therefore be complimentary about changes you've made, even if they can't hear a difference or they think the system sounds worse.

[Joe]

With each passing day, the Caiman sounds better and better. Still, the day-to-day difference is not nearly as drastic as the difference when switching from the SB3 DAC to the Caiman.

I have pretty high level of self-esteem and I'm pretty sure that I cannot be tricked into a placebo, but still, I'm open to any such possibility. I keep questioning myself (overthinking it, as you say): are the differences I'm hearing so consistently really there, or am I psyching myself into hearing them?


This is precisely why I stopped worrying about such things. I was fully in 'audio nervosa' mode, concentrating so much on whether I could hear X or Y difference that I was no longer enjoying the music.

My wife is actually better at spotting real differences than me; for example she could hear that one output valve was 'sounding funny' long before I could.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yeah, you know when you have done something worth while when the other half says something!
That happened to me when I swaped out some qed cables for some of marks she was asleep at the time and when she woke up she said "oooh that sounds clearer, have you done somthing?"

[Steve Toy]

Naah, I'll give 'em each a pair of boxing gloves. Or handbags ;)

My own observations:

Some people are more discerning than others and some people are better able to distinguish between what their different sensory inputs are telling them than others.

Some people are more susceptible to suggestion or prompting than others.

I guess it has a lot to do with confidenceas well as the brain/ear interface working effectively.

Some people trust what their eyes tell them more than their ears even though in this particular instance their eyes tell them nothing of relevance.

Oh, and Alex, you need to get out and hear more stuff. Whilst the Caiman punches at about five times its weight and more with a PSU upgrade, there's more to be had. I've never heard those Maggie speakers of yours but I would suspect that they demand to be partnered with some seriously capable amps and source components. Good that the Caiman is for the money, I suspect that your system is a mullet - plenty at the back end but not much on the sides or top. I suspect you are also using all-over-body shower gel to wash it rather than a decent shampoo and conditioner. I see you mention perfect cables and a perfect room but where are your perfect methods to isolate your kit from different sources of vibration?

There's a lot more to come from those Maggies (or possibly a more valve-friendly speaker) so let your journey towards music nirvana begin.

[Steve Toy]

Oh, and one more thing: there are CD players out there that will piss all over the computer/Squeezebox/Caiman combo for coherence. I've got one right here that I'm borrowing from AnthonyTD, the Eikos Precision based on a Pioneer transport and DAC inside but heavily modified in terms of its PSU and output stage. It's quite old now but its performance is nothing short of breathtaking when partnered and isolated appropriately. It'll soon be replaced by a transport/DAC combination so watch this space...

[DSJR]

I'd like to briefly mention the experiment putting cheap plonk into wine bottles with expensive labels - the tasters "tasted" with their wallets on this occasion I understand..

DacMagic with screaming treble DrMartin? I'd look at the waspy sounding 753 Freedoms if I were you, even if they are pushing thirty years old ;) The broadcast interconnects could sparkle a bit as well, although the Reference 3 was smoother if you can find a cheap set, or preferably the Mark Grant HD's which you could return if you don't like them...

Most well balanced equipment doesn't change overmuch with running in I found, the sound settling down, rather than transforming. The tweaked stuff I've been tweaking recently has certainly changed and improved a little as the new caps have "formed," but in my opinion (not fixed by any means Mr Toy), the *overall* presentation hasn't changed.

When one is deeply into a hobby such as this (leaving the musical enjoyment side out, which is a different thing entirely IMO), we tend to exaggerate differences we hear when outsiders either don't notice, or don't care... :)

Finally, before I return to real life :rolleyes: anyone seriously upgraded their car and then found the performance not as good after a few months. Only on returning to their "old" model do they find that they've got used to the new one and taken it for granted...

[Macca]

Finally, before I return to real life :rolleyes: anyone seriously upgraded their car and then found the performance not as good after a few months. Only on returning to their "old" model do they find that they've got used to the new one and taken it for granted...

With cars? No. With girlfriends, yes...

[Stratmangler]

Oh, and one more thing: there are CD players out there that will piss all over the computer/Squeezebox/Caiman combo for coherence. I've got one right here that I'm borrowing from AnthonyTD, the Eikos Precision based on a Pioneer transport and DAC inside but heavily modified in terms of its PSU and output stage. It's quite old now but its performance is nothing short of breathtaking when partnered and isolated appropriately. It'll soon be replaced by a transport/DAC combination so watch this space...

Don't knock the computer audio thing Steve.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

With cars? No. With girlfriends, yes...

HA!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Don't knock the computer audio thing Steve.

i agree... i still think you (steve) and marco underestimate the caiman

[Marco]

Oi, don't bring me into it! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

i agree... i still think you (steve) and marco underestimate the caiman

:lolsign:

[Stratmangler]

Oi, don't bring me into it! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Wise man :lolsign:

[Steve Toy]

I'm not knocking the computer thing. Indeed the whole point in going down the transport/DAC route is to open up the possibility of the DAC being fed by either a computer or the transport. I'm just saying don't knock the best from CD either.

The Caiman is very good indeed but there's more...

[Stratmangler]

I'm not knocking the computer thing. Indeed the whole point in going down the transport/DAC route is to open up the possibility of the DAC being fed by either a computer or the transport. I'm just saying don't knock the best from CD either.

The Caiman is very good indeed but there's more...

When you posted
Oh, and one more thing: there are CD players out there that will piss all over the computer/Squeezebox/Caiman combo for coherence. I've got one right here that I'm borrowing from AnthonyTD, the Eikos Precision based on a Pioneer transport and DAC inside but heavily modified in terms of its PSU and output stage. It's quite old now but its performance is nothing short of breathtaking when partnered and isolated appropriately. It'll soon be replaced by a transport/DAC combination so watch this space... it came across as knocking computer based audio.

Have you run side by side tests to establish whether this is true ?

[AlanS]

I am chilling and feeling da DAC!

feeling da DAC? What about the f'in music - it suggests you are more interested in/focused on the kit than the music.
It wasnt your friends EYES that changed his hearing but you telling him it was there.
TBH I wouldnt buy a caiman if it has this effect on someone.

So here are some questions.
Have you learned anything or changed your thinking at all from replies to this or your other caiman threads?
Why aren't other caiman users moved to the extent you are? They havent been posting here in agreement with you.
Will you be posting more caiman threads?
Do you recognise every day is different and so are we a fresh pair of eyes and ears?
Is it is not the dac changing but you? Remember IT sounded worse one day?

I will try to avoid posting on your caiman threads again - enjoy them.

[Ali Tait]

One thing with a cd player,no matter how good-it won't play high resolution FLAC,which done well pisses all over the best cd can offer IMO.Not that I'm knocking cd,it's my main listening source(ripped to FLAC)

[Themis]

I'm not knocking the computer thing. Indeed the whole point in going down the transport/DAC route is to open up the possibility of the DAC being fed by either a computer or the transport. I'm just saying don't knock the best from CD either.

The Caiman is very good indeed but there's more...
And you're, indeed, right about both, imho. ;)

[Rare Bird]

One thing with a cd player,no matter how good-it won't play high resolution FLAC,which done well pisses all over the best cd can offer IMO.Not that I'm knocking cd,it's my main listening source(ripped to FLAC)


Was also my main source till i realised i was kidding myself :lolsign:

[Stratmangler]

Was also my main source till i realised i was kidding myself :lolsign:

Thing is Andre that Ali doesn't use a PC based media player, just HDD storage.
His media player is properly stand alone, as a CD player is.

[Rare Bird]

Whats that gotta do with it.. You dont know how i played mine!

[Ali Tait]

I ain't about to chuck all my cd's and start buying vinyl now! Couldn't afford the kind of deck I'd want anyway,so I'm stuck with what I have.As I said previously,digital is still in it's infancy.The day will come when it leaves vinyl in the dust IMO.It's still got a way to go though.

[Rare Bird]

I ain't about to chuck all my cd's and start buying vinyl now! Couldn't afford the kind of deck I'd want anyway,so I'm stuck with what I have.As I said previously,digital is still in it's infancy.The day will come when it leaves vinyl in the dust IMO.It's still got a way to go though.

Same here i'm not prepared to chuck my CD's. Yep vinyl is very very expensive to get right but even though vinyl does sound nice the hassle it can bring is just not worth bothering with..

[Ali Tait]

At the last Owston it was obvious that vinyl is still significantly better than even hi rez stuff,but the gap is closing I think.Give it a few years and we'll be there or thereabouts I think.

[Rare Bird]

At the last Owston it was obvious that vinyl is still significantly better than even hi rez stuff,but the gap is closing I think.Give it a few years and we'll be there or thereabouts I think.

O deffo i've heard CDP that sound as good as records never mind high rez files.I couldnt face vinyl again no way, being an headphone listerner it would drive me nuts even the slightest bit of noise, besides a lot of my recordings sound shocking on vinyl where as they now sound slendid on CD.. Everyone to there own i guess...I guess the world is more intrested in high rez files so i guess thats where all the concentration will go..If i can get all the CD on my list i need the world can go blow up for all i care :lolsign:

[Steve Toy]

If you want to be a pedant, you'll have to raise your game


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=125917#post125917)
I'm not knocking the computer thing. Indeed the whole point in going down the transport/DAC route is to open up the possibility of the DAC being fed by either a computer or the transport. I'm just saying don't knock the best from CD either.

The Caiman is very good indeed but there's more...

When you posted Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=125902#post125902)
Oh, and one more thing: there are CD players out there that will piss all over the computer/Squeezebox/Caiman combo for coherence. I've got one right here that I'm borrowing from AnthonyTD, the Eikos Precision based on a Pioneer transport and DAC inside but heavily modified in terms of its PSU and output stage. It's quite old now but its performance is nothing short of breathtaking when partnered and isolated appropriately. It'll soon be replaced by a transport/DAC combination so watch this space...

it came across as knocking computer based audio.

Have you run side by side tests to establish whether this is true ?


If you read things properly rather than just copying and pasting you'll see (in red) that I was being a little more specific than computer audio in general and as such I was not knocking computer based audio. I was however suggesting that although the Caiman is good at its price point and probably five times more, it is not a statement product.

I've also heard other products, both disc spinners and media players/DACs, that are either more expensive or bespoke/DIY items, reproduce even more of the music than the Caiman by dragging more information off the disc whilst retaining the temporal integrity of that information more effectively. I don't need to make side-by-side comparisons. You'll be asking for double blind testing and measurement graphs next. Wrong forum.:mental:

[Themis]

Steve, I think that what Chris means, is that for most listeners (even discerning ones) the computer/SB/Caiman (or other £250-pricetag dacs, for that matter) combo has reached a level where finding better has become really hard.
And in any case, throwing £1000s in the equation doesn't necessarily make things better (as it used to be).

Now, as you say, (and in that I agree) there are (always) better products.

[Steve Toy]

Indeed Dimitri, you'd be right regarding commercial DACs. You'd probably have to spend over 2k to get a worthwhile improvement over the Caiman. Other options include the bespoke/DIY route or getting an existing DAC modified by the likes of Mark at Audiocom. I have a project in the pipeline as does Hamish who owns a Caiman.

As I said, watch this space.

[John]

I really like computer based audio but it up against the very best TT and it still has a way to go. One day maybe but not yet

[Ali Tait]

Yep agreed John.The scope is there I think.

[Rare Bird]

I really like computer based audio but it up against the very best TT and it still has a way to go. One day maybe but not yet

Trouble being the very best TT's are well out of most peoples reach where as a modest PC/DAC based system is well good sound for peanuts..No awards for what most will opt for

[Stratmangler]

If you want to be a pedant, you'll have to raise your game



If you read things properly rather than just copying and pasting you'll see (in red) that I was being a little more specific than computer audio in general and as such I was not knocking computer based audio. I was however suggesting that although the Caiman is good at its price point and probably five times more, it is not a statement product.

I've also heard other products, both disc spinners and media players/DACs, that are either more expensive or bespoke/DIY items, reproduce even more of the music than the Caiman by dragging more information off the disc whilst retaining the temporal integrity of that information more effectively. I don't need to make side-by-side comparisons. You'll be asking for double blind testing and measurement graphs next. Wrong forum.:mental:

I could respond to this, but to be honest I cannot be bothered.

[Rare Bird]

:lol:

[magiccarpetride]

Naah, I'll give 'em each a pair of boxing gloves. Or handbags ;)

My own observations:

Some people are more discerning than others and some people are better able to distinguish between what their different sensory inputs are telling them than others.

Some people are more susceptible to suggestion or prompting than others.

I guess it has a lot to do with confidenceas well as the brain/ear interface working effectively.

Some people trust what their eyes tell them more than their ears even though in this particular instance their eyes tell them nothing of relevance.

Oh, and Alex, you need to get out and hear more stuff. Whilst the Caiman punches at about five times its weight and more with a PSU upgrade, there's more to be had. I've never heard those Maggie speakers of yours but I would suspect that they demand to be partnered with some seriously capable amps and source components. Good that the Caiman is for the money, I suspect that your system is a mullet - plenty at the back end but not much on the sides or top. I suspect you are also using all-over-body shower gel to wash it rather than a decent shampoo and conditioner. I see you mention perfect cables and a perfect room but where are your perfect methods to isolate your kit from different sources of vibration?

There's a lot more to come from those Maggies (or possibly a more valve-friendly speaker) so let your journey towards music nirvana begin.

While I cannot help but agree with everything you've stated above, I tend to believe that there are other things you've failed to mention that may be of higher importance on the journey toward music nirvana.

Some call it chemistry, others call it alchemy, I call it 'balance'. You can take the most expensive components in the world, throw them all on a single pile, and still get shitty sound reproduction. The trick and the secret barbecue sauce is in careful matching and honing the relationships between individual components.

To my ears, Maggies and Caiman are match made in heaven. They're honeymooning as we speak;) Neither of these two is the state-of-the-art 'sell your house' type of audio component.

Of course, there are much better speakers and much better DACs to be had, but at what price? And still I'm not convinced that a much pricier combo would beat these honeymooners.

This is not to say that my other components are not primed for an upgrade. I did go out and listen to a lot of other systems, and frankly wasn't that blown away. I return home after my audio escapades and sit back and allow the music to ooze through the Caiman and into the Maggies and tell myself: "You know, I'd still like to hear something that would sound sweeter than this."

So the challenge is on:cool:

[Rare Bird]

Hi Alex
Why no just forget about your hi-fi now if it sounds so good & do what your suppose to do & listern to music! :)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I think Synergy is the word your looking for alex I think.... I'm suprised steve missed it he frequently mentions such things ....

[Joe]

Oh, and one more thing: there are CD players out there that will piss all over the computer/Squeezebox/Caiman combo for coherence.

WARNING: Pissing all over audio components is not recommended. It is highly dangerous and will almost certainly invalidate your warranty.

Serious comment: I avoid such statements as 'X will piss all over Y' because there are so many variables involved in rooms and systems. Thus, a particular CDP may sound wonderful in one system, and awful in another; ditto every component in the audio chain. There are no absolutes here.

[Beechwoods]

Back to the original post... one big factor that will influence people's perception of change is their ability to remember the pin-sharp detail of the sound they heard when last listening to a system. It's one thing being able to discern differences in the here and now -- but over a distance of days, weeks or years? Some can do it. I certainly can't. My ears / auditory faculties aclimatise easily, and probably infill what they miss when they need to. So they're useless at the kind of difference over time that would have been expected of your friend, Alex. It's also why I never appreciate burn in. I'm as likely to put any differences down to tiredness, mood or the intense headphone session I had earlier in the day!

[Marco]

Here, here! :clap:

That's exactly it, Nick. I'll comment more on this later :)

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

I think Synergy is the word your looking for alex I think.... I'm suprised steve missed it he frequently mentions such things ....


Alex mentions balance which brings us to a notion of hierarchy - far more significant than synergy. The hierarchy in terms of resolution begins with what is at source and moves down the components in line to the speakers.

Synergy is the idea of imperfect components somehow meeting in the middle. Get the hierarchical balance right from source through amps to speakers (not forgetting the cables and supports for each component) and the notion of synergy is less critical.

[Macca]

Synergy is the idea of imperfect components somehow meeting in the middle. .

If we are accepting that quote above is the given definition of the word synergy in relation to hi-fi then I do believe you have a good point there.:)

[The Grand Wazoo]

I'd like to suggest one more test on your guinnea-pig mate.
Tell him you've made a major and fundamental change to your system that you're really pleased with & get him round to repeat the listening test.

Do nothing at all.
See what he says.

[Macca]

I'd like to suggest one more test on your guinnea-pig mate.
Tell him you've made a major and fundamental change to your system that you're really pleased with & get him round to repeat the listening test.

Do nothing at all.
See what he says.

Good One!

[Barry]

I'd like to suggest one more test on your guinnea-pig mate.
Tell him you've made a major and fundamental change to your system that you're really pleased with & get him round to repeat the listening test.

Do nothing at all.
See what he says.

A test of the 'placebo effect'?

Good one!

Regards

[markf]

That would just mean that he will hear the Caiman with x + 24 + time between the last visit (hrs) burn in,
so it should sound even better, unless he says it doesn't sound as good
in which case you've burned in the caiman too much. Oh and the third option "doesn't
sound any different" so the caiman will have finished burning in then and no further improvement to be had.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Love the idea of burning it in too much............great excuse for a shite sounding system!

[magiccarpetride]

Love the idea of burning it in too much............great excuse for a shite sounding system!

Burning it in too much? Now you've got me worried:( Should I stop listening to music altogether?:eek:

[magiccarpetride]

Hi Alex
Why no just forget about your hi-fi now if it sounds so good & do what your suppose to do & listern to music! :)

I'd like to, but I can't. I'm busting! Never thought I'd be so lucky to get to this point:) and I'd like to share my enthusiasm with others.

[magiccarpetride]

Back to the original post... one big factor that will influence people's perception of change is their ability to remember the pin-sharp detail of the sound they heard when last listening to a system. It's one thing being able to discern differences in the here and now -- but over a distance of days, weeks or years? Some can do it. I certainly can't. My ears / auditory faculties aclimatise easily, and probably infill what they miss when they need to. So they're useless at the kind of difference over time that would have been expected of your friend, Alex. It's also why I never appreciate burn in. I'm as likely to put any differences down to tiredness, mood or the intense headphone session I had earlier in the day!

I'm kind of the exact opposite. If I hear something that impresses me, it stays with me. I can vividly recall it years after it's transpired. And I always keep comparing my new listening experiences with the few ones in the past when I was blown away.

[magiccarpetride]

I'd like to suggest one more test on your guinnea-pig mate.
Tell him you've made a major and fundamental change to your system that you're really pleased with & get him round to repeat the listening test.

Do nothing at all.
See what he says.

That's a good suggestion. He is a very straightforward guy, and I'm pretty sure he'll have me know that he can't hear any difference.

The problem here is that he'll definitely ask me to show him the new/improved link in the chain before he succumbs to listening. And I won't have anything to show him, so not only will the experiment fail, he'll know I'm a lousy liar:mental::lol::eyebrows::steam::stalks::eek::sc ratch::cool::lolsign::violin::interesting::guitar: :fingers::band::drinking::popcorn::callme::goodnig ht::cheers::drunk::closed2::flasher::goodluck::cla p::fence:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Ooo yeah "over burn" you wanna watch that as it definatly going to get you alex! - it's a bit like when you stay out in the sun too long ... It feels great for a while even after the burning has finished ... It's only later on in the day when you get that itch which usually eventually stings you

[Themis]

Burning it in too much? Now you've got me worried:( Should I stop listening to music altogether?:eek:

:lol::lol::lolsign:

This is for another thread : "Listen with the brain" ! :)

[goraman]

I took my Manley Labs Stingray to a freinds house today,It went head to head with an H.H.Scott amp and a Dynaco amp.
You didn't need to be blind folded to hear menny differances between all three.The closest to the Stingray was the little El84 Dynaco with a sweet 15watts per side.
The H.H. Scott a 6550 amp sounded much darker with little chime or shimmer.
My freind did the right thing and bought a 3 month old set of EL34 Quicksilver mono blocks insted of the nearly 50 year old H.H. Scott amp.
Old stuff is cool if the price is right but most of it can't hold up to the newer tube gear.
The butt uglyest amp by far was the little black shoe box Dynaco but it sounded nearly as good as the stingray,It just wasen't as open and airy in the top end.

[The Grand Wazoo]

That's a good suggestion. He is a very straightforward guy, and I'm pretty sure he'll have me know that he can't hear any difference.

The problem here is that he'll definitely ask me to show him the new/improved link in the chain before he succumbs to listening. And I won't have anything to show him, so not only will the experiment fail, he'll know I'm a lousy liar

Tell him you've done one of the many simple modifications to the Caiman. Even if he makes you pop the bonnet, he's not going to know one chip from the other is he?

[DSJR]

Just "massage" your wires... According to the Naim buffs, the difference is as big as changing a component... :hmm:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

So naim actually have a snaic shacker?

[Marco]

So naim actually have a snaic shacker?

Yes, I've seen it at the factory :)

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

Just "massage" your wires... According to the Naim buffs, the difference is as big as changing a component... :hmm:

I'm at that stage in my life where only my wife "massages" my wires:) And it's a deeply, deeply private thing.

[magiccarpetride]

Ooo yeah "over burn" you wanna watch that as it definatly going to get you alex! - it's a bit like when you stay out in the sun too long ... It feels great for a while even after the burning has finished ... It's only later on in the day when you get that itch which usually eventually stings you

Yeah, stick a fork in me -- I'm done! :eek:

[magiccarpetride]

Trouble being the very best TT's are well out of most peoples reach where as a modest PC/DAC based system is well good sound for peanuts..No awards for what most will opt for

My issue with turntables is isolation. I live in an old wood house, and don't have any concrete walls where I could bolt a super slim, vibrations-damping shelf for the turntable. My understanding is that only by doing so can we achieve the level of stability required for playing reasonably controlled signal from a turntable.

[Rare Bird]

My issue with turntables is isolation. I live in an old wood house, and don't have any concrete walls where I could bolt a super slim, vibrations-damping shelf for the turntable. My understanding is that only by doing so can we achieve the level of stability required for playing reasonably controlled signal from a turntable.

Having a Wall shelf gives you lot more chance to use a turntable without springs which is a great thing in my view.

[magiccarpetride]

Having a Wall shelf gives you lot more chance to use a turntable without springs which is a great thing in my view.

Yes. I think you need a bearing wall, preferably concrete, onto which to bolt a vibration-resistant shelf that will host your TT.

[Alex_UK]

Complete change of subject - sorry - but the thread won't be any the worse for it I'm sure ;)

Alex - the quote in your signature is a twist on Arthur C Clarke quote (originally "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") was I believe made by by Larry Niven - why have you attributed it to "Jesus H. Chirst" (sic) - I'm not sure I'm getting the Joke, if there is one? :scratch:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hehehe..........I tried to ever so gently point that out the other day with my comment on the calendar & our relative proximity to the season to be jolly (tra la la, la la, la la la la)

[magiccarpetride]

Complete change of subject - sorry - but the thread won't be any the worse for it I'm sure ;)

Alex - the quote in your signature is a twist on Arthur C Clarke quote (originally "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") was I believe made by by Larry Niven - why have you attributed it to "Jesus H. Chirst" (sic) - I'm not sure I'm getting the Joke, if there is one? :scratch:

No, there's no joke, just a ravingly dyslexic mind at work here!

[The Grand Wazoo]

My next move was going to be to change my signature - see how long it took for you to notice.

[Batty]

I don't know, my system looks quite ordinary to me, a TT, an amp and some tallish speakers, no bling unless the green on LED counts.