Upgrade or just spending

[Sansiiro]

Hello!

About half a year ago I bought Onkyo TX-8220 stereo receiver (275 eur).
Then I realized I should have bought an amplifier.

Amplifier will be without radio, bluetooth, digital inputs and DAC,
but they only add price, tempt for compromises in quality and yes -
I don't even want them!

Therefore I have set my eye on this Onkyo integrated amplifier: A-9030 (299 eur).

But the spec sheets are hard for me to understand.
I ask for advice, will it be step forward worthy of mention?
Here is some more information:

The biggest difference I notice is with THD, but it is also presented differently:

TX8220 - 100 W/Ch Stereo Power (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 10%, 1 Channel Driven, IEC), 0.08% (20 Hz-20 kHz, half power)

A-9030 - 65 W/Ch (8 Ω, 1 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, IEC), 0.08% (1 kHz, 1 W)

I do realize it would be correct to display values for 20-20000 Hz, but why they use such
mess, god only knows. To me these stats are basically incomprehensible, it may be my own fault, of course.

I use Elac Debut B6.2 speakers in a medium listening space.

Here's a full product comparison from Onkyo home page.

https://www.eu.onkyo.com/en/product-comparison-58455.html?products=23319,31890


Thank you so much!
Veiko

[struth]

i wouldnt be too worried re harmonic distortion. modern amps are all pretty well sorted. They are probably the same circuit with one just outputting a bit more. no real need to change unless you feel the need

[Sansiiro]

i wouldnt be too worried re harmonic distortion. modern amps are all pretty well sorted. They are probably the same circuit with one just outputting a bit more. no real need to change unless you feel the need

But can you find any logic in this behavior on the spec sheets other than hiding the weaknesses,
and looking good for wide audience?

And yet I can not shake the feeling, that amplifiers perform better than receivers.
I have heard that receivers tend to sound thin.

[Firebottle]

The 8220 is quoting 0.08% at half power so that would be at 50W.
The 9030 is quoting 0.08% at 65W, so very little real difference.

If you want simplification go for it but I doubt the sound will be much different.

[Sansiiro]

The 8220 is quoting 0.08% at half power so that would be at 50W.
The 9030 is quoting 0.08% at 65W, so very little real difference.

If you want simplification go for it but I doubt the sound will be much different.

Thank you, that is good to know.
But how do you come to such conclusion?
I can understand the 8220 part, but for 9030 the specs seem to be limited to only 1KhZ and to 1W output.
The way I have understood is that these 1KhZ and 1W values are smth quite useless and vague, since
the sound spectrum runs from 20-20 000 Hz, and definitely more power is used.
But You seem confident that this 0,08 applies also to 65W. Why?

[nonuffin]

Thank you, that is good to know.
But how do you come to such conclusion?
I can understand the 8220 part, but for 9030 the specs seem to be limited to only 1KhZ and to 1W output.
The way I have understood is that these 1KhZ and 1W values are smth quite useless and vague, since
the sound spectrum runs from 20-20 000 Hz, and definitely more power is used.
But You seem confident that this 0,08 applies also to 65W. Why?


Any specifications you may care to look at Veiko are pretty much meaningless, as one amplifier with a high specification may not necessarily sound "better" than one with a lesser specification. Much depends on the load (speaker) that the amplifier sees rather than a fixed resistive or impedance value. The real world is far more complex than that.

Alan is an electronics designer so he knows how to calculate amplifier power ratings and I am a hi-fi reviewer who spends no time at all reading specifications. The sound is far more meaningful to me than any quoted specifications.

[Firebottle]

The sound is far more meaningful to me than any quoted specifications.

I totally agree with this statement :thumbsup:

@Sansiiro, apologies for implying (or rather stating) that the 0.08% applies at 65W, that was my error.
The 1KHz specification is usually stated as a 'common reference' and at 1W to establish a base line distortion figure.

The distortion figure usually rises slowly with power output then rapidly when approaching maximum output.
As the 65W receiver output figure is 15W above the half power figure of the amplifier I made the assumption that the distortion at 50W would still be quite low, so probably comparable.

Being the same manufacturer the circuit design is almost certainly very similar, with a greater supply voltage in the receiver to enable 100W into 6 ohms.

[paulf-2007]

But can you find any logic in this behavior on the spec sheets other than hiding the weaknesses,
and looking good for wide audience?

And yet I can not shake the feeling, that amplifiers perform better than receivers.
I have heard that receivers tend to sound thin.you heard wrong. I have had all manner of good valves amps, not so many solid state but my vintage Sony receiver has beat them all and is my end game amp. I just hope it keeps going as I've no interest to change it.

[Lawrence001]

you heard wrong. I have had all manner of good valves amps, not so many solid state but my vintage Sony receiver has beat them all and is my end game amp. I just hope it keeps going as I've no interest to change it.There's a difference between a vintage receiver which is basically an often decent amp with a tuner built in, and a modern 7.1 channel amp which as well as having 7 or so channels to potentiality output at once has a dac and a load of digital dsp to process as well as potentially hdmi upscaling etc to handle. All the latter will reduce the quality of the 2 channel amplification purely on a cost basis before considering the electrical effect of all that circuitry. Having said that the dsp can often provide a pleasant effect, especially with a centre and surround speakers using Dolby digital ii in music mode.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

Hello!

About half a year ago I bought Onkyo TX-8220 stereo receiver (275 eur).
Then I realized I should have bought an amplifier.

Amplifier will be without radio, bluetooth, digital inputs and DAC,
but they only add price, tempt for compromises in quality and yes -
I don't even want them!

Therefore I have set my eye on this Onkyo integrated amplifier: A-9030 (299 eur).

But the spec sheets are hard for me to understand.
I ask for advice, will it be step forward worthy of mention?
Here is some more information:

The biggest difference I notice is with THD, but it is also presented differently:

TX8220 - 100 W/Ch Stereo Power (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 10%, 1 Channel Driven, IEC), 0.08% (20 Hz-20 kHz, half power)

A-9030 - 65 W/Ch (8 Ω, 1 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 Channels Driven, IEC), 0.08% (1 kHz, 1 W)

I do realize it would be correct to display values for 20-20000 Hz, but why they use such
mess, god only knows. To me these stats are basically incomprehensible, it may be my own fault, of course.

I use Elac Debut B6.2 speakers in a medium listening space.

Here's a full product comparison from Onkyo home page.

https://www.eu.onkyo.com/en/product-comparison-58455.html?products=23319,31890


Thank you so much!
VeikoSeriously if they're quoting 100watts power at 6 ohms with only 1 channel driven out of a 7 channel amp and at 10% distortion that's the biggest p1sstake for a quoted power number I've seen. Well, it's up there with the PMPO numbers Dixons used to use when selling Matsui music centres anyway.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[Sansiiro]

I totally agree with this statement :thumbsup:

@Sansiiro, apologies for implying (or rather stating) that the 0.08% applies at 65W, that was my error.
The 1KHz specification is usually stated as a 'common reference' and at 1W to establish a base line distortion figure.

Being the same manufacturer the circuit design is almost certainly very similar, with a greater supply voltage in the receiver to enable 100W into 6 ohms.

Thanks, that makes more sense.
I also hope the power difference is not so big, since while the receiver is 100W for 6 ohm,
the amp is 65W for 8 ohm, which again makes a bit more for 6 ohm!

Lawrence, I agree with your sentiment, for Onkyos defense I can say the TX 8220 is a stereo receiver.

Having heard no-one to see big difference I might opt for 100 eur more and a NAD C316BEE V2.
The problem, it only sports 45 W, which might not work with elac debut B6, which only have 87db sensitivity.
My room is about 28 m2. I also have heard that this 45W is somewhat modestly rated, meaning that it might
well sound a lot more. Hopefully I get a chance to listen to it at local Hi-Fi store, though for now they said
they can not offer me that opportunity.
So any thoughts on this NAD celebrity (?) would be highly welcome!

[Pigmy Pony]

Thanks, that makes more sense.
I also hope the power difference is not so big, since while the receiver is 100W for 6 ohm,
the amp is 65W for 8 ohm, which again makes a bit more for 6 ohm!

Lawrence, I agree with your sentiment, for Onkyos defense I can say the TX 8220 is a stereo receiver.

Having heard no-one to see big difference I might opt for 100 eur more and a NAD C316BEE V2.
The problem, it only sports 45 W, which might not work with elac debut B6, which only have 87db sensitivity.
My room is about 28 m2. I also have heard that this 45W is somewhat modestly rated, meaning that it might
well sound a lot more. Hopefully I get a chance to listen to it at local Hi-Fi store, though for now they said
they can not offer me that opportunity.
So any thoughts on this NAD celebrity (?) would be highly welcome!

Don't know about current NAD stuff, but their 3020 integrated, which was launched in the late 70's had a lot more welly than their quoted 20 wpc suggested, so the numbers don't tell the whole story. If possible get a home trial, or take your speakers along with you.

My mate bought a 3020 in about 1982, and he still uses it.

[graham67]

Hi,
I agree that swapping a budget onkyo receiver for a budget onkyo 2 channel amp is unlikely to make much difference. However swapping for another budget amp also sounds like spending money for little discernable improvement.
If your budget is limited, I would recommend looking second hand. If it doesn't work out you can always sell it for little loss.

[graham67]

As an example i purchased a YBA integrated for around the NAD budget which cost around 2000 euros in 2001. It would cost 3-4k to get an equivalent new model today. Similarly, i bought a similar era Sugden Optima 80 for less than your receiver. Both these amps are high quality performers that sound lovely and are still serviced and supported by their respective factories.
And if i sold them i wouldn't lose any money.
I appreciate your choice may be more limited in Estonia but stick to quality audiophile brands from a reputable seller and you will almost certainly get a much better result than buying a cheap Chinese produced product.

[Macca]

There's lies, damned lies and manufacturer's specifications :)

if I were you I'd just keep the receiver as I doubt there will be any difference between that and the 2 channel integrated. Just switch of all the gubbins on the receiver if you are just listening to 2 channel music. Most of them have a 'direct' button that will bypass all the A/V circuitry.

If the sound gets a bit hard or shouty then you are probably clipping it in which case you really need to look at a much more powerful amplifier (150 watts plus) as every doubling of power will only give you a 3db increase in volume, which is only a bit louder. Swapping from one budget amp to another will get you nowhere.

[Pigmy Pony]

There's lies, damned lies and manufacturer's specifications :)

if I were you I'd just keep the receiver as I doubt there will be any difference between that and the 2 channel integrated. Just switch of all the gubbins on the receiver if you are just listening to 2 channel music. Most of them have a 'direct' button that will bypass all the A/V circuitry.

If the sound gets a bit hard or shouty then you are probably clipping it in which case you really need to look at a much more powerful amplifier (150 watts plus) as every doubling of power will only give you a 3db increase in volume, which is only a bit louder. Swapping from one budget amp to another will get you nowhere.

Velko's receiver is stereo, not an AV jobbie, but I agree swapping it for a similar budget model will not improve anything, and will just cost more money. Probably better to look for something used, to get more sound per pound. Plenty of good secondhand stuff around, to suit all budgets.

[Macca]

Velko's receiver is stereo, not an AV jobbie, .

Right, didn't realise that. Didn't think anyone was still making stereo receivers that weren't also multi-channel AV amps.

If the amp is clipping the other option would be to get more sensitive speakers. Should have mentioned that. You can buy decent quality, high efficiency (90db) speakers here pretty cheap, I don't know what the situation is in Estonia though.

[Haselsh1]

How do you quantify better or worse..?

If your ears can tell a difference and you think it is better then it is but for how long..? Maybe six months..? What happens then when you realise that the difference is just that, a difference and it may not actually be 'better'...?

Really difficult one to live with. What actually constitutes better..?

;)

[Pigmy Pony]

How do you quantify better or worse..?

If your ears can tell a difference and you think it is better then it is but for how long..? Maybe six months..? What happens then when you realise that the difference is just that, a difference and it may not actually be 'better'...?

Really difficult one to live with. What actually constitutes better..?

;)


You either do the smart thing, and decide that rather than throwing good money after bad, you give up and find another hobby. Or more likely you just keep spending and changing stuff :) which is frustrating and fun in equal measure.

[Sansiiro]

Thanks to everyone.
For used stuff, the market here in Estonia is not very big, that's true.
And for now I do not trust the idea of used gear.
It might change of course once I can not upgrade any more
with my money and I get a taste of a good deal :eyebrows:.
Yet I have some options to mess around at my budget-level.
As for now I might get Onkyo A-9130. I will let you know how this works out.

[Sansiiro]

Hello.


So yesterday I received this Onkyo A-9130 integrated amplifier.

As for now, it has enaugh volume. But it sounds kinda flat.
The vocals are not popping out at all, all the tracks seem similar, like music has no melody and no depth.
So this definately is no upgrade and I am worried.

My only hope is that there may be time needed for the thing to reach it's peak.

Has anyone perhaps experienced this miraculous development of the new amplifier ?
How much time would you give?


Veiko

[graham67]

Hi veiko,

I suspect there will be no transformation. As some of the previous posts mentioned it was unlikely that swapping one cheap amp for another would make much difference.

I know this is probably not what you want to hear but your ears are telling you what some of us suspected would be the case.

i am reminded of the phrase "spend in haste, repent at leisure". Which of course i am still afflicted by 😉

[Sansiiro]

Now. This is evident.
Listening to new amp on the second day, I myself
can say it has been a miraculous development.

For sure I expected improvements comparing it to
TX8220 receiver. Reasons for this were both what the
amp had more (gold on binders, thicker chassis, thicker
(removable) mains inlet, better specs, price, PMB...) and also
what it had less (no radio, no bluetooth, only 4 binders..),
also - Onkyo receivers appear in almost every list,
where they name good options for budget-level, especially
A-9010 (A-9110). Good reviews online, mentions by this
youtube celebrity Steve Guttenberg, the audiophiliac.

Having said all this, I was yet prepared for the amp
to sound only EVER SO SLIGHTLY better than my receiver
TX8220. The thing is, I am only starting out with this,
I have'nt even heard a good system yet, I don't even know,
how good they can get. True, I visited Arvo Pärt
center in Estonia, where they have 22K$ Estelon speakers (see the avatar),
but I can not say it impressed me. Perhaps it is due to the
nature of classical music, or to the fact, that they USED IPAD
for their DAC! I am not even joking. It was easy to listen, but
nothing special. I also listened to my current speakers at the
fancy listening room before I bought them, but also - they did
not impress! I bought them anyway, because Steve Guttenberg was
practicly screaming all over the youtube, that these are the
best thing men ever have made, after the wheel and the plow.
Perhaps this is, as good as it gets, I thought. Later at home,
I learned to love them. I am very pleased at the moment.

Back to the amp - so you can imagine my disappointment, when the
amp did not sound a lot better, not a little-bit better, not the
same, but WORSE than the receiver. On the first day, the sound was
messed up, no base, no highs, no vocals and a noisy mid-range.

While I am no expert, and while in this purchase might have been a
doze of neurosis and obsession, I did not believe I could fail in
such a magnitude. It felt like a robbery.

But having listened to it on the second day, I feel a lot better.
What I could learn even on the first - it has more power, strength, volume
or oomph, as some say. Which of course is a funny thing, hence the receiver
was rated 40 W more.. Yeah, it had that. And I guess the ability to
sound clearer at the lower listening-level. The glimpses of better detail
were also heard. But the second time things had clicked even more. Now it
has depth, the space, it has the highs, the lows and the mid-range is not
like a packed up fridge. I listened to some Zappa, Orbital, Smiths, Jeff Beck,
Marzi Nyman, but only instrumental stuff, sounds funny, but I was afraid to
put vocals on, and ruin my spirits. But the instrumental stuff definately worked,
it was way better. I became very excited. I will of course get to the vocals as
well at one point, and perhaps share a thought.

So weather you can call it a burn-in or a warm-up, you can not
trust the out-of-the-box listening on the first day.


Next stop, I will substitute the wolfson DAC with the Onkyo
NS-6130 separate, after a month. I could do it now, I guess,
but I think I should do it gradually.


Thank you for your time!

Veiko

[Macca]

if you do exactly the opposite of what Steve Guttenberg says then you won't go far wrong...

Seriously though glad you are now happier with the new amplifier.

[AJSki2fly]

Glad you are growing to like it, I am a firm believer that electronics take time to settle down and get to their best operating level, after that its just down hill, no only kokingon the downhill that takes a few years.

Remember all that matters is what you hear and whether you are happy with it or not.MAgazine eviews and other peoples opinions should only be used as a guide in my opinion. Yes they can be valuable from pointing you in the right direction, but reviews especially may be quite biased for all sorts of reasons. Also dealers have a vested interest in getting you to return time and time again, the good old upgrade route. So they are unluckily to let the HiFi Golden Eggs out to the bag early on, especially if there are value for money items, better to get you on the upgrade path and keep you going up the expensive and exotic hifi ladder for as many years as possible. Sorry I know that sounds very cynical I know but sadly probably not too far from the truth, with a few exceptions out there that I know of.

[Pharos]

Adrian, I disagree with this;
"Remember all that matters is what you hear and whether you are happy with it ".

Because IME we can reach a point at which the system is so revealing that it becomes unpleasant. This then confronts us with the question; "Do I want a comfort zone, or to hear all the reality, warts and all".

This is from a write-up on the Gammas:

Professional monitoring loudspeakers
are designed to reveal exactly what's
in a recording, warts and all. Any bad
aspects need to be obvious so that
suitable corrections can be made,
but in the home such a loudspeaker
will usually be unbearable to listen to
after a while, especially with some of
the poor recordings doing the rounds
these days..."

I wrote the following in a discussion with a fellow Hi-Fi friend on my acquisition of ADAM speakers;

They are like my cat, at times lovely and then full of mad surprises and seemingly spontaneous behaviour.
It is very comfortable to be drunk or stoned, or for many, have a fag, and that is what many speakers seem to do by rounding off the unpleasant corners, and they leave one feeling in control – mental comfort zone, no infliction.
These do not, wonderfully unruly like the cat.

[Macca]

Adrian, I disagree with this;
"Remember all that matters is what you hear and whether you are happy with it ".

Because IME we can reach a point at which the system is so revealing that it becomes unpleasant. This then confronts us with the question; "Do I want a comfort zone, or to hear all the reality, warts and all".

.

Given the vast majority of recordings are made on very revealing systems and deliberately made to sound good I have to disagree with this. If the system sounds unpleasant it is due to distortion. I have my doubts about the quality of the amplifiers that are built into some of these active pro monitors. And even if those doubts are unfounded there's still the pre-amplifier to take into account. Most pre-amps are terrible,

[Pharos]

The unruliness is actually not in distortion, they do that less than I have ever heard from any loudspeaker over the last 30 years, it is in dynamic presentation, sudden appearance of parts previously seemingly recessed or non existent.

[Macca]

But that's a good thing isn't it? I agree on some recordings on occasion you can hear how they have stitched them together. But it doesn't make them unpleasant to listen to, at least not for me.

[Pharos]

Yes, but psychologically it is a bit of a curate's egg.

The sense of astonishment which occurs at times leads one to believe that something more is being extracted or 'dug out', and this can be a revelation, but often recordings can sound mundane. This scenario differs from that with perhaps more colored speakers where the coloration can add a sense of presence.

This latter is only tentative, but I think also that coloration can add intelligibility to speech, it often appears in the presence range.

ATM FM, which I have on in the background much of the time varies enormously, and of course my perceptions must include any changes within me, but on occasions it can be very good, and I notice particularly that consistently, vocalists are presented purely, and I cannot see how this can be a result of artefact.

Many years ago I met a guy locally who was also a Hi-Fi fanatic who had ATCs, and he complained that they were too good. I couldn't see how a speaker could be too good at the time, but now see what he may have meant. They were also often described as mechanical sounding.

The accuracy surely must make listening more forensic, and this frame of mind is not conducive to revelling in the art, unless we are sound recording fanatics admiring the work done technically.

I welcome any I/P here.

[Macca]

The accuracy surely must make listening more forensic, and this frame of mind is not conducive to revelling in the art, unless we are sound recording fanatics admiring the work done technically.

This is maybe the difference here as although I would not describe myself as a 'sound recording fanatic' I do prefer systems that lay the art of the engineer and producer 'bare' so to speak. I want the recording to sound like a recording, I don't want the system to mangle it so it 'sounds like a live performance' or 'musicians playing in my room' or any of that malarkey.

Nor am I keen on the Audionote type of approach of making everything sound warm and cuddly with a bit of glitter thrown over it. Although I do find Audionote systems pleasant to listen to I wouldn't want one for personal use. Couldn't afford it anyway!

Really comes back to what we personally think a top hi-fi system should sound like, and that's something we have probably been subconciously inoculated with at a much younger age. We didn't all have the same experiences then so not surprising that tastes differ. I suspect I would really like what your speakers do.

[AJSki2fly]

Adrian, I disagree with this;
"Remember all that matters is what you hear and whether you are happy with it ".

Because IME we can reach a point at which the system is so revealing that it becomes unpleasant. This then confronts us with the question; "Do I want a comfort zone, or to hear all the reality, warts and all".

This is from a write-up on the Gammas:

Professional monitoring loudspeakers
are designed to reveal exactly what's
in a recording, warts and all. Any bad
aspects need to be obvious so that
suitable corrections can be made,
but in the home such a loudspeaker
will usually be unbearable to listen to
after a while, especially with some of
the poor recordings doing the rounds
these days..."

I wrote the following in a discussion with a fellow Hi-Fi friend on my acquisition of ADAM speakers;

They are like my cat, at times lovely and then full of mad surprises and seemingly spontaneous behaviour.
It is very comfortable to be drunk or stoned, or for many, have a fag, and that is what many speakers seem to do by rounding off the unpleasant corners, and they leave one feeling in control – mental comfort zone, no infliction.
These do not, wonderfully unruly like the cat.

I am not quite sure of what you are saying. I actually was trying to say that if you like how your systems sounds to your ears then that is great, whether the system is expensive, middle of the road or cheap it does not matter, if it gives a good result as far as the listener is concerned then that is all that matters.

On your point about monitors, or revealing systems, I personally have been through this hoop myself, having gowned pair of Wilson Benesch ARC's, a lovely speaker but it is IMO at the extreme end of accuracy. So as you say when listening to something not particularly well recorded or has noise etc then you would hear if full frontal so to speak, which i the worst cases would become annoying the the extent of changing what you were listening to. However when the input was good the output was superb

So in my case I went to more forgiving loudspeakers, not necessarily as good but possibly a smoother rendition. However I still adhere to "What matters is what you hear is that you are happy with it"; so in other words whether you like a full on revealing sound, "warts and all" as you say, or a smooth relaxing experience then if you are happy then that's all that matters.:)

[Pharos]

"On your point about monitors, or revealing systems, I personally have been through this hoop myself, having gowned pair of Wilson Benesch ARC's, a lovely speaker but it is IMO at the extreme end of accuracy. So as you say when listening to something not particularly well recorded or has noise etc then you would hear if full frontal so to speak, which i the worst cases would become annoying the the extent of changing what you were listening to. However when the input was good the output was superb "

That covers the point Adrian, there being a conflict with wanting to hear the maximum of the art, but in so doing hearing the failings in recordings, and this latter is a distraction, perhaps a detraction.

[graham67]

Hi Veiko, I am really pleased the amp is now sounding good for you and am delighted to be proven wrong ��. Good things come to those that wait ��

[Pharos]

I am sorry if I have taken your thread off topic Veiko, and I am glad that you are now happy, but your thread had prompted and nudged some issues for me which needed resolving, and for that I am grateful.

[Sansiiro]

I am sorry if I have taken your thread off topic Veiko, and I am glad that you are now happy, but your thread had prompted and nudged some issues for me which needed resolving, and for that I am grateful.

No worries. Yes I am happy now, the sound has opened up more.
As for these vocals, on the first day I was listening this group Stornoway, they have this very talented
singer. On the first day I felt like his voice was overshadowed by other instruments. Weather it was or it
was not, it is true, that the amp gives a lot more energy, color and punch to the whole act. For example,
up to now this Zappa album Jazz from Hell was always on the "meh" category in my mind. But now I have
found it to be very captivating - the previous setup never added that strength to these notes.
Furthermore, setup with the receiver had kind of fading and mellow tone, from which the vocals of Stornoway
stood very much out. Also because we often might set the first impression of songs as the "standard" for them,
so having heard the new representation, it sounded off for also thanks to these reasons.

To talk about speakers possibly being to revealing, I too believe that such an issue should be dealt with
as the recording is made. Though I know it has not always been the case. If you as an artist don't want
something to be heard, just don't record it.

[Pharos]

It does seem to me Veiko that all speakers have emphases to some degree, perhaps some peaks or troughs in response, even a little coloration, andthese must form a part of our supposed 'normal'.

Then we change and at the least are a little upset, maybe pleased, or maybe worried, as I am now that there is something fundamentally inaccurate with them.

Another point is the levels at which we listen, which really affects the perception of presence and top, (Munsen curves), and I know that sound engineers often listen at high levels and after many years complain at damaged hearing. I know one in Hove who runs Heatherdale Audio.

At 70 dB my system sounds bland, but at 82 it comes to life and if anything is too toppy, but I have seen people praise speakers, saying that certain models do not change with level, and this seems wrong given the science.

[Pharos]

I measured the spls this morning on R4 at 9.30, and it peaked 60dB, and much of the speech was poor, but from experience live speech in my room typically peaks 70dB, so Munsen curves may be a factor here because broadcast O/Ps vary so much in level.