Can you ever go back to belt drive?

[allthingsanalogue]

Okay, long story short

I had an SL1200G and an own an LP12, very decent spek.

I sold the SL1200G for financial reasons and kept the Linn. Trouble is, even though I have a Lingo 3 on the Linn, I'm missing the rock steady pitch of direct drive. Other people reckon I'm imagining but I still think I hear w&f from the Linn. It's only 3 years old and I've tried another new (£50) belt but no difference. The strobe says it's fine and am sure it is but the SL IMO was better.

I also think that with off centre pressing the SL1200G coped better??

I'm now trying to sell my LP12 and buy another Technics but the only thing that worries me is the few reports of warped platters?

[Pigmy Pony]

At the end of the day Andrew it's your enjoyment of the music that matters. So regardless of what the strobe tells you, or any other measuring device, if the Technics sounds right to you, then it IS right.

My current deck (a heavily reworked Technics SL1210) replaces my old LP12, and is going nowhere any time soon, in fact it will see me out :) It just feels right to me.

[JohnG]

After a few things that have happened over the past few weeks, that I have been involved in, using a extremely clean mains signal, supplied from a dedicated off board power supply on Idler Drive and then Belt Drive TT's, there is a large step forward to be had in the overall presentation and improved SQ.
If you can get access for such a device to trial, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

[allthingsanalogue]

After a few things that have happened over the past few weeks, that I have been involved in, using a extremely clean mains signal, supplied from a dedicated off board power supply on Idler Drive and then Belt Drive TT's, there is a large step forward to be had in the overall presentation and improved SQ.
If you can get access for such a device to trial, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Which did you prefer? I often hear about how good the Garrards are for example when fully serviced compared to many belt drive decks.

[The Black Adder]

The Inspire TT's have always interested me TBH... They get great reviews too.

The only belt drive I really liked was a Michell Gyro SE.

My Thorens TD124 is a belt driven idler so best of both worlds?

[Shovel_Knight]

To be honest, I have never heard a truly high-end belt drive turntable (such as a VPI or a Brinkmann) but the ones I've heard (Thorens TD-125, Linn LP12, Rega P6 etc) left me completely cold. When I'm listening to a belt drive turntable, I think I hear something about the sound that I don't like. I think it's some kind of temporal aliasing.

From the mechanical point of view, if you connect a heavy platter to a motor with a compliant rubber band, the resulting system acts as an oscillator, and if you add a spring-suspended subchassis to the equation, things get even more interesting. The rubber band being stretched and pulled by the motor and the platter creates a measurable amount of torque that rotates the subchassis and excites the suspension, this should result in pretty severe real world wow... Please take note that adjusting the suspension does nothing to eliminate this wow, it only shifts its frequency!

[Pigmy Pony]

I don't know how quickly the platter gets up to speed on my DD turntable, but it looks pretty instant, and the platter weighs an absolute ton. Power coming 'directly' from a high-torque motor I suppose, and that's as technical as I can get :)

[thingfish]

No, since experiencing Direct Drive I shall never return to Belt Drive or Idler Drive either.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I don't know how quickly the platter gets up to speed on my DD turntable, but it looks pretty instant, and the platter weighs an absolute ton. Power coming 'directly' from a high-torque motor I suppose, and that's as technical as I can get :)

It will be stabilised within <1.0 second.


No, since experiencing Direct Drive I shall never return to Belt Drive or Idler Drive either.

Back in the day had a very high spec LP12 which got sold. Now I have a massively modded 1210. I also own a Garrard 301/401 and I think they are excellent decks. The idler's do things the 1210 can't and vice versa with the 1210 and idlers.

[walpurgis]

I've used all types and have no preference.

[allthingsanalogue]

I don't know how quickly the platter gets up to speed on my DD turntable, but it looks pretty instant, and the platter weighs an absolute ton. Power coming 'directly' from a high-torque motor I suppose, and that's as technical as I can get :)

How is it I've never heard of this brand? The tt's look amazing!

[allthingsanalogue]

From the mechanical point of view, if you connect a heavy platter to a motor with a compliant rubber band, the resulting system acts as an oscillator, and if you add a spring-suspended subchassis to the equation, things get even more interesting. The rubber band being stretched and pulled by the motor and the platter creates a measurable amount of torque that rotates the subchassis and excites the suspension, this should result in pretty severe real world wow... Please take note that adjusting the suspension does nothing to eliminate this wow, it only shifts its frequency!

Could that make off centre records sound worse? I only ask as when I had an 1210 I never noticed the wow so prevalent on off centre records as I do on the Linn? It seems that now I've noticed it nearly every record suffers from it.

[Shovel_Knight]

Could that make off centre records sound worse? I only ask as when I had an 1210 I never noticed the wow so prevalent on off centre records as I do on the Linn? It seems that now I've noticed it nearly every record suffers from it.

Well, the armboard is mounted to the subchassis, and if the tonearm is moving back and forth I assume it would also slightly rotate the subchassis and excite the suspension.

[Pigmy Pony]

How is it I've never heard of this brand? The tt's look amazing!

Thing is Andrew, I'm a lazy shite with no technical knowledge, two cloth ears and sausage fingers. So I wanted something 'plug 'n' play'. The arm and cartridge were set up by Inspire so may not be performing optimally (the 2M Blacks are notoriously sensitive to set up). But all I know is I love it!

Maybe change the arm one day.

[alphaGT]

My experience was quite the opposite. For 20+ years I had a fine Denon direct drive ‘table. It finally developed a problem, (after a drunk girl decided to arm wrestle with the auto cuing tone arm.) I never had it fixed, sold it as is.

So, now I have a VPI Scout, with the acrylic platter, and the timing and pace, wow and flutter are far beyond anything I heard from the Denon. The Denon had a rumble during the silent passages of a record, that reminded me of a bowling ball rolling down the lane. Or course it was very slight, it never bothered me, most people wouldn’t even notice, but the VPI is dead quiet on the silent passages. And no ‘table I’ve ever owned has Impressed me with its timing and pace like this VPI. Every album sounds like another, and another. To me, that’s the true measure of any piece of gear.

So, maybe it’s not the belt drive, but some other feature, or design choice?

Russell

[Ammonite Audio]

There are good and bad examples of all turntable drive systems, and good and bad implementations too, so it's pretty pointless to make any sweeping statements or assumptions. That said I do believe that perceived speed instability with belt-driven decks like the LP12 has more to do with the suspended sub-chassis wobbling around than the actual drive system being imprecise. So, in my opinion a suspended deck like the LP12 should always be placed on a very solid surface, not a wobbly one, and where the floor is timber suspended, get the deck onto a strong wall shelf.

Of course once heard, low rate 'wow' is difficult to 'unhear' and a good direct drive deck won't suffer from such problems, and nor will a good idler even if they still benefit from careful placement; and in the case of idlers there is always mechanical noise to get used to. My Thorens TD-124 is a lovely musical thing, but so too are my Kenwood and Technics DD decks which benefit from 'added silence'.

Andrew, your SL-1200G was as close to the turntable motor system 'state of the art' as anything bar the new SP-10R, but there is 'something' about the way that a well set up Linn plays music, even if it still has its flaws to which even Linn lovers will admit. Try moving the LP12 onto a solid surface or wall mount and then re-evaluate what you hear; otherwise I think you answered your own question to begin with and the SL-1200G is more your thing.

How widespread is the SL-1200G 'warped platter' issue in reality? I don't know but these things can be blown out of all proportion on the internet and all I can say is the my pimped SL-1200GR has no such problems. That said, I can supply the Technics SL-1200G, SP-10R and SL-1000R (via an authorised Technics dealer) and I would personally check any deck very carefully before handing it over to the customer!

[chris@panteg]

I wouldn't worry too much about the 1200G platters, if you really want one, go for it.

I didn't think I would switch back to belt drive I just fancied trying another Voyd, I think it's the only belt drive deck I would have gone for, because I really like the three motor drive system, I'm so glad I did, absolutely love it, plays music beautifully to me.
Having said that I wouldn't rule out getting a SL1200G at some point if it's an option but I'm more than happy with my Voyd.

[The Black Adder]

Actually... and don't shoot me down here.

A friend of mine has a budget Pro-Ject RPM-5 with the carbon fibre arm and that sounds awsome. He uses an Ortofon black with it.

I used to own the very same TT a long time ago and to be honest I was quite taken with it at the time but the Ortofon red cart let it down. I remember the Gyro SE was better but in a more refined way and then they are in differently priced camps.

For playing rock and dance stuff the RPM-5 was a good little TT.

What I'd really love to try is a really nice linear turntable. A subject for a different thread maybe?




ok, you can laugh now :)

[thingfish]

:lol::lol::lol::D

[The Black Adder]

haha... cheeky bugger. :)

[struth]

had a project with a speed box and fibre arm. it was actually a very decent deck, certainly for the money.

[The Black Adder]

had a project with a speed box and fibre arm. it was actually a very decent deck, certainly for the money.

+1

Yep, I had the quartz speed box too, well worth it.

Nice little TT

[walpurgis]

I'm dumbing down the vinyl side of my system. I'll only be keeping the TD150 with arm of choice and the PL-12D. Seems daft to have much invested in turntables etc., as I hardly play records these days. I'll keep the Thorens and Pioneer for now as they are dead reliable, do the job and are a doddle to maintain.

[struth]

just have the one tt. so if it goes tits up then it'll likely be the last. mostly stream now due to concerns over damage anyway. ive still got a nice record collection tho. could realise a lot selling that....400 aprox, almost all in nmint condition.

[The Black Adder]

I don't play records very often either. I've been thinking of selling my TD-124 for a while now.

It's a beautiful thing and I've spent lots on it.... Just don't know what to get if I did. Belt or DD? Vintage or modern? Price bracket?

Sheesh, lots to think about.

[Marco]

Hi Andrew,


Okay, long story short

I had an SL1200G and an own an LP12, very decent spek.

I sold the SL1200G for financial reasons and kept the Linn. Trouble is, even though I have a Lingo 3 on the Linn, I'm missing the rock steady pitch of direct drive. Other people reckon I'm imagining but I still think I hear w&f from the Linn. It's only 3 years old and I've tried another new (£50) belt but no difference. The strobe says it's fine and am sure it is but the SL IMO was better.

I also think that with off centre pressing the SL1200G coped better??

I'm now trying to sell my LP12 and buy another Technics but the only thing that worries me is the few reports of warped platters?

A valuable lesson learned. eh? The good thing, and positive way of looking at it, is that you now know, the hard way, that despite considering that the LP12 was better (based on the badge and 'audiophile heritage'), which no doubt is why you kept it and sold the Technics, there's still something intrinsically more accurate about the musical presentation of the Technics - and for good reason.

You are definitely *not* imagining the pitch instability, which is what I think you're hearing, as it's present, to some degree, in pretty much all belt-driven turntables, in comparison with good direct-drives, which are inherently more stable.

So now armed with that knowledge, and secure in how you like your music presented, you can concentrate on the direct-drive approach to vinyl replay, and get the most from it.

Since you liked what you heard with the SL1200G, my advice would be to sell the Linn and buy another Technics, but this time upgrade the arm for something better, such as a Jelco SA-750. Trust me, despited the high price tag of the Technics, the stock arm is nothing special whatsoever!

Upgrading the arm will make the Technics sound much more 'musical' and give you a little of what the Linn does well (that addictive musicality), which combined with the rock-sold stability and speed accuracy of the Technics will make for some grin-inducing listening sessions, especially if you fit a really nice MC cartridge... Anyway, I wish you well on your journey:cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

I don't play records very often either. I've been thinking of selling my TD-124 for a while now.

It's a beautiful thing and I've spent lots on it.... Just don't know what to get if I did. Belt or DD? Vintage or modern? Price bracket?

Sheesh, lots to think about.

Unless you need the money, Jo (from selling the Thorens), do nowt, as pretty much anything else you buy will be a downgrade. For me, what you should do, in order to hear your gorgeous TD124 at its best, is fit a better arm and cartridge - especially the latter. You really need to hear that T/T with a nice SPU!:)

And for that, you'll need a quality SUT or step-up transformer, to partner the MM phono stage in your Croft. If you're still using an MM cartridge with it (as you were when we last spoke about T/Ts), then you're only hearing a fraction of your T/T's potential, and that's why playing records isn't blowing you away at the moment, which it should be!;)

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

I've got a Pro-Ject RPM4 - it's actually very good - not as good as my Garrard 401, but it is certainly very acceptable for the very rare occasions it gets used. I put it up for sale once but knew I'd regret it and kept it. Looks nice too, and a small "footprint" compared to most decks. I also had a Technics SL-150 for several years, doctored by DSJR, and that was very good too. I don't think you can say one drive method is better than another - it will always depend on the implementation and so many other variables.

[Marco]

I don't think you can say one drive method is better than another - it will always depend on the implementation and so many other variables.


Not better in every way, but definitely better in *some* ways, as both belt-drive and D/D have their inherent weaknesses. In the areas in which either excel, however, the difference is easily heard:)

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Back in 2009 I used a Technics SL1210 with Croft amplification. A year or so later I was back with a belt drive for no reason other than boredom. I also love the rock steady timing of a DD.

[Spectral Morn]

I have a heavily modded Technics1200 and a first rate arm on it, suits the deck well, but my AMG Giro destroys it, and its belt drive. In terms of money, both are close regarding the cost of what went into the Technics + the Triplanar arm.

Speed stability is first rate. As I have two set ups, keeping the Technics isn't an issue, so its never been a case of having to move it on.

A Linn not set up like Linn do it is a lovely music maker.

[rmcin626]

Currently I have a belt drive, and looking to change but the decision will be based on the sound produced by the turntable not wither it’s a belt drive or direct drive. For me it’s all about the music, the equipment is a means to an end.

[crimsondonkey]

Massive case of 'it depends'. I've heard and owned good and bad examples of both. Also personal taste comes into things too - my wife preferred the sound of a belt driven Acoustic Solid to a DD Techie SP10, and although I could see the attraction I preferred the Technics most of the time.

Currently have what I hope will be my end game TT in the shape of a Bergmann Sindre which is belt drive on top of an air bearing. It seems to have ended any argument for me about belt or DD.

[Beobloke]

As above, 'it depends' is the key here. Most of the Beobloke turtnable collection is direct or idler drive, but I never feel short-changed or that I'm listening to second best when I use my Gyro SE.

The thing I'm finding difficult to 'downgrade' from is a turntable that can correct for off-centre records!

[thingfish]

Like drinking a fine holy (The finest) wine ........Buckfast

As opposed to a fine Malt.

No contest the Malt wins.

Unless your a tru Celtic Supporter I suppose......Then a Kiss through the pope's jockstrap should suffice.

[Marco]

I think what we have to focus on here, is not the age-old debate of belt-drive vs. D/D, and which 'sounds best', as there exist excellent examples of both, but the fact that Andrew can hear the speed/pitch instability of a belt-driven turntable, no matter otherwise how wonderful it sounds (or indeed ANY belt-drive turntable, in comparison with the greater speed/pitch accuracy of a quality direct drive.

*That* is specifically the issue that needs addressed - not necessarily anything relating to the overall sound of any particular belt-driven turntable, of which I'd agree there are examples of such that can sonically outperform the Technics.

And I'd maintain that Andrew would hear *that effect* (one of wow and flutter, pitch instability, etc) with ANY belt-driven turntable, no matter how otherwise great it sounded, in comparison with any well-designed direct-drive, as it is an inherent weakness in the design of belt-drive. From experience, I can pretty much identify the effect blind, as I fundamentally know what to listen for.

Therefore, given that the effect in question is annoying to his ears, IMO, there is little point in him pursuing the purchase of another belt-drive turntable, only to be confronted yet again (to a greater or lesser extent) by the same problem, and in turn for him to waste more money without addressing the real issue.

*That* is my point, and something I think he should carefully consider before deciding on his next move:)

Marco.

[thingfish]

And yet thoughts on the Hun beating the Tims this season.....,:lol:

[Joe]

I've used all types and have no preference.

I much preferred belt drive, though to be fair the only direct drive I've owned was a low-end Sony.

[struth]

my jbl is dd and it still works very well at aged 40. still original too.

[Ammonite Audio]

I think what we have to focus on here, is not the age-old debate of belt-drive vs. D/D, and which 'sounds best', as there exist excellent examples of both, but the fact that Andrew can hear the speed/pitch instability of a belt-driven turntable, no matter otherwise how wonderful it sounds (or indeed ANY belt-drive turntable, in comparison with the greater speed/pitch accuracy of a quality direct drive.

*That* is specifically the issue that needs addressed - not necessarily anything relating to the overall sound of any particular belt-driven turntable, of which I'd agree there are examples of such that can sonically outperform the Technics.

And I'd maintain that Andrew would hear *that effect* (one of wow and flutter, pitch instability, etc) with ANY belt-driven turntable, no matter how otherwise great it sounded, in comparison with any well-designed direct-drive, as it is an inherent weakness in the design of belt-drive. From experience, I can pretty much identify the effect blind, as I fundamentally know what to listen for.

Therefore, given that the effect in question is annoying to his ears, IMO, there is little point in him pursuing the purchase of another belt-drive turntable, only to be confronted yet again (to a greater or lesser extent) by the same problem, and in turn for him to waste more money without addressing the real issue.

*That* is my point, and something I think he should carefully consider before deciding on his next move:)

Marco.

I'd add a cautionary note here - I have some classical piano recordings where you can clearly hear speed instability, even on a new Technics deck that is measurably (I have measured it) as precise as any deck can be, because that instability is on the analogue master tape, or the cutting lathe, or both. So, attributing pitch instability in an arbitrary fashion to any particular drive system is being a tad simplistic.

[Marco]

Hi Hugo,


I'd add a cautionary note here - I have some classical piano recordings where you can clearly hear speed instability, even on a new Technics deck that is measurably (I have measured it) as precise as any deck can be, because that instability is on the analogue master tape, or the cutting lathe, or both. So, attributing pitch instability in an arbitrary fashion to any particular drive system is being a tad simplistic.

Good point, and one certainly worth bearing in mind. However, in terms of your last sentence, I don't know about it being done in "arbitrary fashion", or the concept being "simplistic". It's simply about reporting, in a common sense and practical way what you hear, based on your [in this case, in reference to myself] years of experience comparing various belt-driven turntables to their direct-driven counterparts.

And given the use of recordings that don't display any inherently audible instability, which after all was the only way you knew that such was present to measure, I'd still contend that any well-designed direct-drive turntable would outperform virtually any belt-drive design *in the specific area* of pitch/speed stability, notwithstanding the possibility that the latter could, overall, still sound better, or rather the sound produced be more preferable to the listener.

Since Andrew seems sensitive to the effect of speed/pitch instability, it therefore seems sensible that he should target turntables which excel in that area, and from having achieved that platform of accuracy, then 'tune' the sound, in terms of musicality, to achieve the desirable results, through judicious selection of partnering ancillaries, such as arm and cartridge.

That's simply what I would do in his position; not some definitive guide that everyone should follow :)

Marco.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Can you ever go back to belt drive?

Still using a LP12 , which I purchased new in 1979. IMO the belt acts as a form of isolation from the vibration of the motor
Perhaps Direct Drives have found some answer to isolating vibration better than using a belt. Would be interested to know
just what their advantages are and Why.

[Shovel_Knight]

Can you ever go back to belt drive?

Still using a LP12 , which I purchased new in 1979. IMO the belt acts as a form of isolation from the vibration of the motor
Perhaps Direct Drives have found some answer to isolating vibration better than using a belt. Would be interested to know
just what their advantages are and Why.

Eliminating the problem is much better than isolating it.

Any direct drive motor rotates at the same speed as the platter and any vibration it produces is at inaudible frequencies (0.55Hz for 33RPM). No elimination necessary. Bearing rumble is the only source of noise in a well-designed DD turntable.

Oh, and the bearings in DD turntables tend to live longer as well simply because there's no belt or idler to pull on the platter...

[Idlewithnodrive]

Bit late to this thread but I've owned most of the decks mentioned and many others, too. Of the 'better' decks I've had, my personal favourites have been -

SP-10 - rock solid speed stability, does everything exceptionally well
PT Anni - another top performer all round
401 - that bass and those looks :stalks:
Lenco G99 - good bass, another good all rounder, just a touch forward
LP12 - very musical but coloured, enjoyable


My least -

TD125 - Yawn, too laid back


A mix of DD and belt, so I guess, in my experience, the implementation of the drive method is everything.

[JohnG]

I have mailed the OP, he is in Norfolk, I am in Suffolk.
The offer is made to meet up and listen to the PTP Solid 9 and use the LDA MK11 as I have done a write up on in community.
This can then be compared to the OP's Linn and accompaniments played on their system.
It should all add up to a valuable experience.
I like my PTP, I have that feeling of satisfaction through ownership.
I like my SP10, I have great memories of the Journey to get there.
I like my TTS 8000, It fills me with great anticipation.
I like my GL75, it is a project, and I know how it can improve, if I make those decisions for it.
I like my Linn, it has played more LP's than all the above combined, but will probably be considered the weak link in the system.
The point is the music is the experience, and all can reproduce it to a level, I can happily live with.
Any other comparisons, will not make my listening experiences any more pleasurable, they will just highlight the benefits of the engineering in the differing designs.

[YNWaN]

The last time the speed stability of my own belt drive was measured the graphs generated were accurate enough to show the motor cogging of the cutting lathes direct drive motor*. So, speed stability is not a ‘given’ for belt drive decks and nor is speed stability a ‘given’ for direct drive - it’s all in the implementation.

* The graph was generated by playing a tone from a test record.

[YNWaN]

There was mention in an earlier post if one turntable being better than another with off-centre pressings. With the best will in the world this can’t actually be the case - irrespective of the turntables merits* it can’t overcome an inherent problem with the record, nor exaggerate it.

* Yes, I do know about the auto centring deck that Nakamichi made.

—————-

I think it’s also worth pointing out that use of the piano pedals can lead to effects that can be easily confused with record wow.

[Marco]

The last time the speed stability of my own belt drive was measured the graphs generated were accurate enough to show the motor cogging of the cutting lathes direct drive motor*. So, speed stability is not a ‘given’ for belt drive decks and nor is speed stability a ‘given’ for direct drive - it’s all in the implementation.

* The graph was generated by playing a tone from a test record.

What about 'stylus drag' factor, Mark? As in, said stability 'under load'... Did you measure that?:)

Yes, it all depends on implementation, but I assure you that you can hear the effect of piano notes 'wavering' (pitch instability) on belt-drive T/Ts, with low-torque motors, especially when heavy arms/cartridges are used, with high VTFs.

Try fitting a high-mass arm (say an FR64), and an SPU tracking at 4g, onto an LP12, play some music that tests for accurate pitch delivery, and tell me you can't hear the subsequent detrimental effect, due to the drive system struggling to cope with the mass 'under load';)

Marco.

[YNWaN]

The AC motor that Linn use (not the D.C. motor they now use on their higher end variants) is not low torque - quite the opposite in fact. Don’t be fooled into thinking the Technics is inherently higher torque when what you are actually experiencing is active control of the motor torque by the feedback circuit.

As for stylus drag, yes I have looked into (measured) that. In fact, the whole measurement of speed that I mention was instigated by my investigation into stylus drag. Without repeating a lot of what I have written in the past (and writing a bit of an essay) I believe the entire issue centres on the fact that torque is generated by load and the actual running load on a good turntable is exceedingly low - as such, when up to speed, most turntable motors are operating at close to zero torque and so the very small drag imparted by the stylus can become a significant component.

In the case of the LP12, and decks using a similar suspension, there is the potential for motor torque variations to work with spring and belt compliance to create a further problem, but this is not a given and often overstated IMO. In addition, particularly so in the case of the LP12, one has to be very careful as to precisely which version you are thinking of. The D.C. motor Linn use is a very different thing to the AC motor and the drive electronics differ considerably, both in terms of concept and implementation. However, if any deck can’t cope easily with the drag imparted by 4g of tracking weight there is an actual fault with the drive system!

[Marco]

The AC motor that Linn use (not the D.C. motor they now use on their higher end variants) is not low torque - quite the opposite in fact. Don’t be fooled into thinking the Technics is inherently higher torque when what you are actually experiencing is active control of the motor torque by the feedback circuit.

As for stylus drag, yes I have looked into (measured) that. In fact, the whole measurement of speed that I mention was instigated by my investigation into stylus drag. Without repeating a lot of what I have written in the past (and writing a bit of an essay) I believe the entire issue centres on the fact that torque is generated by load and the actual running load on a good turntable is exceedingly low - as such, when up to speed, most turntable motors are operating at close to zero torque and so the very small drag imparted by the stylus can become a significant component.

In the case of the LP12, and decks using a similar suspension, there is the potential for motor torque variations to work with spring and belt compliance to create a further problem, but this is not a given and often overstated IMO. In addition, particularly so in the case of the LP12, one has to be very careful as to precisely which version you are thinking of. The D.C. motor Linn use is a very different thing to the AC motor and the drive electronics differ considerably, both in terms of concept and implementation. However, if any deck can’t cope easily with the drag imparted by 4g of tracking weight there is an actual fault with the drive system!

Sorry, I have to vehemently disagree. Despite your measurements, which I'm not disputing btw, I can still clearly hear (and most likely identify blind) the 'wavering' effect with pitch, on piano notes, on most belt-driven turntables, especially LP12s, compared with the rock-solid stability, in that respect, of quality direct-drives. You also have to factor in the weight of the partnering arm on the suspension, and that of the cartridge itself.
,
SPUs weigh 30g on their own, which is considerable, so there's that to consider, in terms of drag, including the effective mass of the arm (18g or so, with an FR64), along with the 4g VTF applied. It all mounts up... And that's why you rarely see low-mass belt-drive turntables fitted with high-mass arms and high VTF cartridges, which are normally the reserve of more 'brutal' designs, such as the Platine Verdier - or D/Ds, like SP10s.

Anyway, either I'm 'imagining' what I'm hearing, which in this instance I seriously doubt, or you haven't measured some necessary parameter, in order to fully ascertain what is happening in relation to 'stylus drag'.

Marco.

[Marco]

Also, let's rewind to Andrew's OP:


Trouble is, even though I have a Lingo 3 on the Linn, I'm missing the rock steady pitch of direct drive.

So are you saying he's imagining it, too? Extensive experience tells me the complete opposite, and that LP12s, in particular (but in general all low-mass belt-drives), suffer as described, compared with quality direct-drive designs.

Therefore, I believe that what Andrew is hearing is a very real phenomenon.

Marco.

[YNWaN]

Marco, you seem to be angling for a fight but I’m afraid I’m not interested. You and Andrew are free to believe whatever you wan’t, I’ll leave it at that.

Just for clarification, the measurements I referred to earlier were not carried out on an LP12.

[Marco]

Lol - angling for a fight? What on earth gave you that impression?:scratch:

I'm simply defending my POV, albeit it robustly, as is my style, and the opinions I've formed on the matter, over the last 20 years or so. Just because I don't agree with you, and believe the opposite, doesn't mean I want a fight. Or should I just simply roll over and play ball?;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Just for clarification, the measurements I referred to earlier were not carried out on an LP12.

Ok then, so what you're *really* saying, and which I would agree with 100% (as I'm in no position to dispute it) is that the measurements you've carried out, in relation to the effects of stylus drag, are only applicable and relevant to the turntables (and partnering arms/cartridges) you've tested. And that's absolutely fine:)

However, I'd contend that if you carried out the same measurements on an LP12, or indeed many other similar belt-drive T/Ts, especially using high-mass arms and/or heavy cartridges, tracking at high VTFs, in comparison with what would be achieved with the same, fitted on quality D/Ds, you might get a different result.

Marco.

[allthingsanalogue]

Also, let's rewind to Andrew's OP:



So are you saying he's imagining it, too? Extensive experience tells me the complete opposite, and that LP12s, in particular (but in general all low-mass belt-drives), suffer as described, compared with quality direct-drive designs.

Therefore, I believe that what Andrew is hearing is a very real phenomenon.

Marco.

After I sold my modded SL1210 and bought a Gyro SE, I quickly noticed W&F, I even tried an upgraded psu, two belts on a double pulley and nothing fixed it. I sold it a few weeks later and bought the LP12 in 2016. This was much better, however I then bought and an SL1200G and was actually quickly disappointed in the quality of sustained notes on the LP12 for double the price but due to financial reasons had to sell the SL1200G.

I'm now browsing my old yt videos and realise that comparing them to the LP12 the Technics does indeed have better pitch and that's a clincher for me, I've never been happy with any cassette deck for this reason so must be extra sensitive to it.

I have a yt video of my previous 1200G running, here is a link. Please delete if needed.

https://youtu.be/0PzNrcB3Iks That just sounds right to me.:)

[allthingsanalogue]

Therefore, given that the effect in question is annoying to his ears, IMO, there is little point in him pursuing the purchase of another belt-drive turntable, only to be confronted yet again (to a greater or lesser extent) by the same problem, and in turn for him to waste more money without addressing the real issue.

*That* is my point, and something I think he should carefully consider before deciding on his next move:)

Marco.

Agreed

[allthingsanalogue]

There was mention in an earlier post if one turntable being better than another with off-centre pressings. With the best will in the world this can’t actually be the case - irrespective of the turntables merits* it can’t overcome an inherent problem with the record, nor exaggerate it.

* Yes, I do know about the auto centring deck that Nakamichi made.

—————-

I think it’s also worth pointing out that use of the piano pedals can lead to effects that can be easily confused with record wow.

Hi Mark

What I actually meant by this comment was that it's as if it's making the W&F I already 'think' I can hear worse, like multiplying it. Also the way the arm is being pulled in and out having more of an effect on the suspension so making it more aggravated by the excessive movement or increasing stylus drag therefore slowing the deck down?

I also listen to a lot of electronic music where some sounds have perfect pitch and so can be frustrating when I compare them with a digital version of the same song.

Andrew

[AJSki2fly]

After I sold my modded SL1210 and bought a Gyro SE, I quickly noticed W&F, I even tried an upgraded psu, two belts on a double pulley and nothing fixed it. I sold it a few weeks later and bought the LP12 in 2016. This was much better, however I then bought and an SL1200G and was actually quickly disappointed in the quality of sustained notes on the LP12 for double the price but due to financial reasons had to sell the SL1200G.

I'm now browsing my old yt videos and realise that comparing them to the LP12 the Technics does indeed have better pitch and that's a clincher for me, I've never been happy with any cassette deck for this reason so must be extra sensitive to it.

I have a yt video of my previous 1200G running, here is a link. Please delete if needed.

https://youtu.be/0PzNrcB3Iks

I am not surprised you noticed W&F on the Gyrodec SE, I also had one and after much playing around and using the now infamous Pete's Pylon's reduced the problem greatlyamd I measure the improvement. The prime issue with the Michell TT's is the suspension system which is conical springs and the the motor being not mounted on the chassis, the parts that hold the springs allow the chassis to float in the wind not only vertically but also horizontally, so as the belt move the plate the chassis is susceptible to twisting hence W&F.

I have now moved to a Void TT, yes belt drive but much more stable due to its 3 motors, and also has a nicer tone to it than a Gyrodec, to my ears anyway.

[allthingsanalogue]

I am not surprised you noticed W&F on the Gyrodec SE, I also had one and after much playing around and using the now infamous Pete's Pylon's reduced the problem greatlyamd I measure the improvement. The prime issue with the Michell TT's is the suspension system which is conical springs and the the motor being not mounted on the chassis, the parts that hold the springs allow the chassis to float in the wind not only vertically but also horizontally, so as the belt move the plate the chassis is susceptible to twisting hence W&F.

I have now moved to a Void TT, yes belt drive but much more stable due to its 3 motors, and also has a nicer tone to it than a Gyrodec, to my ears anyway.

Tom Evans lent me a psu for my Gyro and he described the Gyro as 'it's as stable as stirring a wooden spoon in porridge'!

[allthingsanalogue]

Apparently the new Lingo 4 motor has so little torque that it slows down drastically when even placing or taking a record on or off the platter. That would worry me even more!

[Marco]

After I sold my modded SL1210 and bought a Gyro SE, I quickly noticed W&F, I even tried an upgraded psu, two belts on a double pulley and nothing fixed it. I sold it a few weeks later and bought the LP12 in 2016. This was much better, however I then bought and an SL1200G and was actually quickly disappointed in the quality of sustained notes on the LP12 for double the price but due to financial reasons had to sell the SL1200G.

I'm now browsing my old yt videos and realise that comparing them to the LP12 the Technics does indeed have better pitch and that's a clincher for me, I've never been happy with any cassette deck for this reason so must be extra sensitive to it.

I have a yt video of my previous 1200G running, here is a link. Please delete if needed.

https://youtu.be/0PzNrcB3Iks That just sounds right to me...

Thanks for the summary of your experience in that area, which largely mirrors my own. Interesting you mention electronic music, in relation to pitch, and how those sounds are more accurately reproduced digitally - a point on which I would entirely agree. In the same way, to my ears, direct-drive turntables get that right (are more accurate, in terms of pitch) than in general are belt-drive T/Ts, when reproducing that type of music.

I don't believe that any of this is imagined; simply that no-one we know of has so far managed to successfully measure the effects.

I'll watch your YT video later:)

Marco.

[Marco]

I am not surprised you noticed W&F on the Gyrodec SE, I also had one and after much playing around and using the now infamous Pete's Pylon's reduced the problem greatlyamd I measure the improvement. The prime issue with the Michell TT's is the suspension system which is conical springs and the the motor being not mounted on the chassis, the parts that hold the springs allow the chassis to float in the wind not only vertically but also horizontally, so as the belt move the plate the chassis is susceptible to twisting hence W&F.

I have now moved to a Void TT, yes belt drive but much more stable due to its 3 motors, and also has a nicer tone to it than a Gyrodec, to my ears anyway.

Yup, I completely concur. Gyros have always been poor in that respect, which as you say is why Pete's Pylons work so well - simply because there exists something fundamental to fix!

Marco.

[Marco]

Agreed

Well, if that's the case, then you know what to do!:cool:

Marco.

[allthingsanalogue]

Well, if that's the case, then you know what to do!:cool:

Marco.

Selling a Linn isn't easy though as there's absolutely no way I can post it, don't know how ebay sellers post them but I wouldn't risk it!

[Marco]

Collection only, Andrew, unless you have the original box and all the packaging. If it's a nice enough example, the price is right, and someone wants it [and LP12s are certainly popular enough], then someone will be willing to travel and collect it.

In the past, I've driven all over the UK to buy stuff I wanted, such as from Glasgow to Bath, to buy a pair of Spendor SP1s, and from Wrexham to Cornwall, to buy my Lockwood Majors! As they say, where there's a will, there's a way;)

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

Tom Evans lent me a psu for my Gyro and he described the Gyro as 'it's as stable as stirring a wooden spoon in porridge'!

:lol::lol: an accurate description I think though.

[allthingsanalogue]

Collection only, Andrew, unless you have the original box and all the packaging. If it's a nice enough example, the price is right, and someone wants it [and LP12s are certainly popular enough], then someone will be willing to travel and collect it.

In the past, I've driven all over the UK to buy stuff I wanted, such as from Glasgow to Bath, to buy a pair of Spendor SP1s, and from Wrexham to Cornwall, to buy my Lockwood Majors! As they say, where there's a will, there's a way;)

Marco.

My Lp12

https://i.imgur.com/Q7luEK3.jpg

Inspired by this photo found online! Any deck has to have 78 for me!

https://i.imgur.com/Lxgbzjm.jpg

[Marco]

Nice LP12, Andrew. Which arm is that on the Techy?:)

Marco.

[allthingsanalogue]

Nice LP12, Andrew. Which arm is that on the Techy?:)

Marco.

Thanks Marco.

Obviously not my Techy but think it's one of the new Jelco TK850S arms and one of Hugo's fanatastic arm boards.

[Marco]

Ah, I didn't look at the pic closely enough... But yes, that's a lovely looking arm & board combo, which compliments the turntable perfectly! No doubt it sounds it, too:)

Marco.

[rmcin626]

I have to admit that Technics deck looks great

[alphaGT]

Thanks Marco.

Obviously not my Techy but think it's one of the new Jelco TK850S arms and one of Hugo's fanatastic arm boards.

It looks A LOT like my VPI arm, a very similar design to be sure. Very solid and robust.

Russell