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magiccarpetride
27-05-2010, 18:58
One thing I forgot to mention here: my Caiman arrived from Taiwan, where it was apparently built. I for some reason thought that Caimans are being lovingly built and tested by Stan Beresford in his garage. What gives?:scratch:

roob
27-05-2010, 19:14
Err
They are made in Taiwan to his design thats why they are at the budget end of the market.If it was made in the UK it would be double the price.

The Vinyl Adventure
27-05-2010, 19:25
if he made them by hand i think they would be a bit more than double that too

magiccarpetride
27-05-2010, 19:38
if he made them by hand i think they would be a bit more than double that too

Yeah, that's what made me wonder how is it possible that such a stellar piece of gear is selling for so little money?

StanleyB
27-05-2010, 19:48
if he made them by hand i think they would be a bit more than double that too
The Caiman is largely made by hand. I have been thinking of how to end that process and move the main parts of the Caiman over to say a MK2 TC-7520 or just call it TC-7520SE. Maybe drop the LM4562 and use the NE5532 from the TC-7520? Price could be £10 or so less, and save on the waste of the LM4562 to those who prefer to select their own more exotic opamp.

The Vinyl Adventure
27-05-2010, 19:51
sounds like a good idea stan...
i managed to put those opamps peter sold me in my self... after i said i wasnt going to ... and i didnt break it... are you impressed ;)

Rare Bird
27-05-2010, 20:55
Maybe drop the LM4562 and use the NE5532 from the TC-7520?



Stan:
Do Analogue Devices still make the AD712JN maybe use instead of the NE5532?

http://part.aboutsemi.com/pdfview/analog-devices/ad712jn.html

Ashmore
27-05-2010, 22:48
The Caiman is largely made by hand. I have been thinking of how to end that process and move the main parts of the Caiman over to say a MK2 TC-7520 or just call it TC-7520SE. Maybe drop the LM4562 and use the NE5532 from the TC-7520? Price could be £10 or so less, and save on the waste of the LM4562 to those who prefer to select their own more exotic opamp.

That's one approach, but it's not out of the marketing product lifecycle handbook... the Caiman has established a market position and unless the switches you're considering make it seriously more profitable for you then why bother?

What's the point renaming it and diddling about with the specs for a ten quid discount? Surely such a small price differential won't have any positive impact on sales - but you risk damaging customer confidence by changing the name: all that positive PR down the drain.

I was wondering whether you might go the other way and consider offering a 'Caiman plus' with the muratas and all that other bling already inside. If it's already made by hand it can't be that hard to have different options can it?

Just some thoughts, hope you don't mind me pitching in. I work in marketing, can you tell?

Simon

Ali Tait
28-05-2010, 11:37
Caiman SE sounds better to me.

Butuz
28-05-2010, 12:06
Agree - Caiman SE with all upgrades (Op amps, PSU, resistors, caps, better quality plugs and pots, etc) to make it the best it can possibly be without a total redesign?

Gotta be worth £400 sureley?

Butuz

DSJR
28-05-2010, 12:17
And as the Caiman itself seems so good, it should fetch good used money to enable an upgrade for sensible money - gawd, I'm back in me Linn/Naim upgrade days, only we're looking at an extra £250 tops, rather than the £500 each upgrade of the 80's and thousands per upgrade now.....

leo
28-05-2010, 17:28
Stan:
Do Analogue Devices still make the AD712JN maybe use instead of the NE5532?

http://part.aboutsemi.com/pdfview/analog-devices/ad712jn.html

Farnell still stock em

http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/ad712jnz/op-amp-dual-bifet-dip8-712/dp/9604898

Rare Bird
28-05-2010, 17:36
Just wondering what the 'Z' is for!

leo
28-05-2010, 19:20
The Caiman is largely made by hand. I have been thinking of how to end that process and move the main parts of the Caiman over to say a MK2 TC-7520 or just call it TC-7520SE. Maybe drop the LM4562 and use the NE5532 from the TC-7520? Price could be £10 or so less, and save on the waste of the LM4562 to those who prefer to select their own more exotic opamp.

You can fit the best op-amps available and some people would still want to try alternatives.
I still think the NE5532 is a great all rounder, all the other harder Caiman mods like dac chip would already be done leaving the easy op-amp rolling to the user

leo
28-05-2010, 19:28
Just wondering what the 'Z' is for!

Not sure, the other letters are just max temp, offset rating etc
It maybe because its lead free, dunno , doubt its much to worry about tbh, main specs should be the same

Rare Bird
28-05-2010, 19:38
Not sure, the other letters are just max temp, offset rating etc
It maybe because its lead free, dunno , doubt its much to worry about tbh, main specs should be the same

Hi Leo
I used this AD chip in the early 90's as a replacement for the NE5532, I thought it an improvement.

BlueMax
04-06-2010, 21:44
Agree - Caiman SE with all upgrades (Op amps, PSU, resistors, caps, better quality plugs and pots, etc) to make it the best it can possibly be without a total redesign?

Gotta be worth £400 sureley?

ButuzPerceived value could be even higher ....
Not in the Far East but certainly in Europe and the US ;)

StanleyB
04-06-2010, 23:19
Perceived value could be even higher ....
Not in the Far East but certainly in Europe and the US ;)
My dealers in Singapore and South Korea do not have any problem with the price. There are a lot of cheap DACs out there, but none of them come anywhere near the audio performance of the British DACs ( Beresford, MF, Cambridge) below the U$400 price bracket.

It's not too difficult to load up a DAC, any DAC, with expensive parts, but the fact of the matter is that the more expensive a DAC becomes, the lower the sales are, with no guarantee that it will sound any better. The majority of potential users find spending anything more than £100 on a DAC a great financial obstacle.

At the same time I get requests for things like XLR outputs, as if more than 5% of home audio amps have XLR inputs. Why would I want to add £50 or more to the price of the DAC by incorporating an XLR output stage and connectors when more than 99% or buyers would never own an amp that could use it?
It's the same price issue that affects the Murata regs. By the time the DAC is factory fitted with them and the product hits the shelves in Europe, close to £80 would be added to the price. About £25 of that is solely duty and VAT. For that same £25 any competent engineer can buy and fit both the Murata regs by themselves.

My basic principle is to offer an excellent sounding product in stock form that can hold its own against anything similar costing several times more, and then leave the remaining (expensive) further improvements down to the competent modders.

Juggling these various conflicting problems takes a lot of thought and planning.

BlueMax
05-06-2010, 08:13
My dealers in Singapore and South Korea do not have any problem with the price. There are a lot of cheap DACs out there, but none of them come anywhere near the audio performance of the British DACs ( Beresford, MF, Cambridge) below the U$400 price bracket.

It's not too difficult to load up a DAC, any DAC, with expensive parts, but the fact of the matter is that the more expensive a DAC becomes, the lower the sales are, with no guarantee that it will sound any better. The majority of potential users find spending anything more than £100 on a DAC a great financial obstacle.

At the same time I get requests for things like XLR outputs, as if more than 5% of home audio amps have XLR inputs. Why would I want to add £50 or more to the price of the DAC by incorporating an XLR output stage and connectors when more than 99% or buyers would never own an amp that could use it?
It's the same price issue that affects the Murata regs. By the time the DAC is factory fitted with them and the product hits the shelves in Europe, close to £80 would be added to the price. About £25 of that is solely duty and VAT. For that same £25 any competent engineer can buy and fit both the Murata regs by themselves.

My basic principle is to offer an excellent sounding product in stock form that can hold its own against anything similar costing several times more, and then leave the remaining (expensive) further improvements down to the competent modders.

Juggling these various conflicting problems takes a lot of thought and planning.Having seen loads of DACs and other electronic items from Far Eastern companies selling direct, I have often wondered about the pricing strategy used towards the richer Western consumers. So it is good to know that Beresford products are selling well in competitive and price sensitive markets such as Singapore and South Korea. South Korea in particular. Indicates that consumers there also consider that Beresford DACs are quality products that are VFM.

Yes, the demand is price elastic. I only know of your pricing in the UK and feel that you have got the balance right. Demand for XLR outputs will be so small that it will get chopped from the ends of a standard deviation bell curve.

However, offering better versions of the same basic design is a sound policy. Variations/range of a particular model of a car has proved that over the years. Also in audio, for example with Marantz offering SE and KI versions. And the Caiman!

What next?! Wi-Fi connectivity now that audio streaming is gaining popularity?
May be even as an-add on adapter such as the Audioengine W1 ?!

StanleyB
05-06-2010, 09:12
My whole range is based on a couple of important factors. The weirdest one is the 2KG weight limit of DAC plus PSU, two cables, and packaging. Once over that weight, postal charges from Royal Mail suddenly double. The other is an upper limit of £300 (including delivery) of anything short of exotic. That will mean a lot more work before I can manage a hgh-end DAC, but a midrange unit might just be able to conform to the first two requirements.

I have been experimenting with possible new ways that try to take into account the ability of adding new technology into the design at a later stage. i.e flexible upgrade ability. The TC-7520 was designed along that same line, and the Caiman showed how effective such an approach can be. You only have to look at the way I designed the audio PCB on the TC-7520 and Caiman. It makes it so much easier to carry out a range of mods to the audio stage without having to rip apart the complete DAC.
My main stumbling block is software programming however, and in particular microcontrollers. So I am teaching myself the fundamentals of that art form so that I can at least try to implement a basic range of software functionality to the DAC and let more capable modders go the remaining distance with far more potent coding. I realize that this is pushing consumer DAC technology quite a lot, and it certainly isn't easy. But if it was, someone would have done it before. Maybe it is time I did more than just generate nice waves from the RCA outputs, and looked at the nuts and bolts that are missing.

jandl100
05-06-2010, 13:37
I see in the Russ Andrews catalogue ("Connected" Issue 14) that arrived this morning that RA has brought out a PSU for the Beresford DACs ... there's even a pic of the Beresford DAC with the PSU! - £91.95 + delivery.

That might be good advertising for you, Stan! :)

Stratmangler
05-06-2010, 13:48
This what you spotted Jerry ?
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1832&customer_id=PAA0500060310338BGPVJNZEHTRTOYGE

Spur07
05-06-2010, 14:31
This what you spotted Jerry ?
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1832&customer_id=PAA0500060310338BGPVJNZEHTRTOYGE

I wonder how much better would that RA PSU really be against my Maplins PSU.

Stratmangler
05-06-2010, 14:39
I wonder how much better would that RA PSU really be against my Maplins PSU.

Probably no better.
I used a Maplins PSU with my TC7510 and was very pleased with the result.
The RA stuff looks prettier, and he's had plenty of success at supplying over-priced products to those with audiophilia nervosa. Many people also can't think outside of the box, so gain some sense of reassurance that it's marked up as being correct for the job.

I wonder how much RA pays for one of those PSU's.
I reckon £5.00 to £10.00, and that includes RA specific silk screen printing.

Spur07
05-06-2010, 15:22
it would have to be significantly better in my book for £90.

just been down my local builders and got chatting to a guy that supplies and fits fireplaces. He let me have a piece of off-cut 2" thick marble to try with one of my speakers. He says he's got a nicer, bigger bit that I can cut in half for each speaker for £10 if it works. Much thicker and heavier than the Tesco granite chopping board.

Just been trying it out and I'm quite impressed. Not much tighter in the bass as such, but much greater clarity and separation. A cleaner, weightier sound.

Happy with that - will collect the other slab next week.

StanleyB
05-06-2010, 15:44
Maybe I priced the Caiman PSU far too low:scratch:.

Ali Tait
05-06-2010, 16:05
Nah,you just charge a fair price Stan,instead of ripping people off.

BlueMax
05-06-2010, 16:07
I see in the Russ Andrews catalogue ("Connected" Issue 14) that arrived this morning that RA has brought out a PSU for the Beresford DACs ... there's even a pic of the Beresford DAC with the PSU! - £91.95 + delivery.

That might be good advertising for you, Stan! :) at £91.95 + delivery, does it come with RA'a magical cone feet? :lol:

RA tried to sell a certain DAC-1 for £599 (I think!). As with most RA offerings it was over-priced. It is no longer in their catalogue. So I suspect that faced with competing DACs such as the Breresford DACs that offer quality at sensible prices, DAC-1 was a flop.

It would appear that they are now trying to cash in on the success of the Beresford DAC with an over-priced PSU!

Whatever, it is good publicity for Beresford DACs :)

During the hay days of the M-Audio SuperDac 24/96, first upgrade by modders was an external PSU. Basically a torroidal tranny in a die cast case.
Cyrus claim that their DAC XP can be improved by adding a Cyrus PSX-R - Power Supply.
So may be Beresford can also offer an upgrade path; hopefully at sensible prices.

trailer
05-06-2010, 16:10
I see in the Russ Andrews catalogue ("Connected" Issue 14) that arrived this morning that RA has brought out a PSU for the Beresford DACs ... there's even a pic of the Beresford DAC with the PSU! - £91.95 + delivery.

That might be good advertising for you, Stan! :)

You obviously didn't look in the sale flyer that came as well.

The PSU is only £82.76 there :ner:

StanleyB
05-06-2010, 16:15
Maybe I should consider offering the Caiman without its own power supply:scratch:. Seeing that so many people are experimenting with alternatives I might as well save them the cost of buying my PSU, and then not using it afterwards.

Ali Tait
05-06-2010, 16:17
Sounds like a good idea Stan,at least as an option.

quadsugdenman
05-06-2010, 16:33
No Stan - Stick to your current strategy. You charge a fair price for an exceptional value for money product. If people wish to experiment with caps, regulators or psu units let them, and they already do!!. It is their option. However some of the RA stuff is for the those with either too much money to spend or for the 'paranoid hard of thinking'. No benefit - no brainer!!! :doh:

StanleyB
05-06-2010, 16:39
Surprisingly, the hottest selling item on my list is now the Caiman+. I am down to my last 12 pieces, which are on their way from my warehouse. It will take me about a month to make a new batch:(. I severely underestimated the likely sales potential, given that I offer it at almost the same price as the Caiman.

BlueMax
05-06-2010, 16:46
You obviously didn't look in the sale flyer that came as well.
The PSU is only £82.76 there :ner:
Cyrus PSXR for Cyrus DAC is 'only' £525.
So at only £82.76, RA must be giving away his PSU's
:lol:

trailer
05-06-2010, 16:56
Cyrus PSXR for Cyrus DAC is 'only' £525.
So at only £82.76, RA must be giving away his PSU's
:lol:

A Naim 555PS for the DAC is only £5k so you are right. Definitely a bargain.

:stalks:

dave2010
05-06-2010, 17:00
Maybe I priced the Caiman PSU far too low.
Probably not. You have to think of the competition. At around £250 (approx) delivered it competes pretty well with its near competitors, and in my opinion sounds better, and is more useful because of the headphone outlet. There are a few headphone amps in the same price range. If you'd priced it higher (say £300) you'd probably not have reeled me in.

You might be able to tempt me and a few others round here with a new unit, perhaps better and up to £400, but you've probably figured out already that there aren't enough of us for it to be worth your while. Your DIY mod strategy is very unusual, but if you're happy with it it seems to work for most using this msg board.

You seem to be thinking the economics through pretty well. If you can sell more then you can either reduce the price, or have a better overall profit. Raising the price, even if justified on quality grounds, might just cause the number of units to drop and then your profitability would suffer.

FWIW I once (a long time ago) ran a restaurant on a very short term basis over a few years. We could sell better quality food but it hit our profit margins considerably. We could have sold really cheap food, but then it would have been c**p. Instead we compromised, and generally sold reasonably good food at lower prices than the several nearby competitors.
We had a much higher turnover, and in general a much higher profitability than most of the others who were in the co-operative scheme. Sometimes customers would say our food was too cheap, but they didn't know that we didn't care. What we wanted was to sell enough to make a substantial profit. Good chocolate cake might have (then) sold for 60-70p a slice, whereas a deluxe slice could only have sold for 10-20p more. The cost of the chocolate and other ingredients to make really good cake was significantly more than 20p/slice. Similiar considerations applied to the main meals we offered.


Maybe I should consider offering the Caiman without its own power supply:scratch:. Seeing that so many people are experimenting with alternatives I might as well save them the cost of buying my PSU, and then not using it afterwards.That's perhaps not a bad idea, though I'm happy enough that you sold mine with a PSU. One way would simply to be to offer your units either complete, or with the PSU taken out. You could take the volume control knob off too if you like ( :lol: ).

I notice that some other suppliers are using a different strategy. Maybe I don't blame them, but Temple Audio are offering their latest amp with a "free" cable "worth" £20. Maybe it's a good deal, but if you've already got a good or even better cable, then it isn't! I don't blame them for trying, but it doesn't make me want to rush to buy their product.

StanleyB
05-06-2010, 17:15
I am thinking about putting a special link in my message section so that AoS members can get a direct link to special members offers. I wrote the javascript code for something like that last year when I released the Caiman, but I can't remember how I did it:doh:. It might however be one way of getting more people to join AoS, since that's the only way they'll be able to get to the message section:lol:.

BlueMax
05-06-2010, 17:25
Interesting case study by 'dave2010' and I agree.
Stan has got his 'marketing mix' right and he is successful.
Tampering with it could prove disasterous.

Volume sales of quality products at affordable prices is the way to maximise profits.
Another product that has found success along similar lines are the Audioengine A5 powered speakers.

A feature of Beresford DAC that many potential buyers would attractive is its pre-amp and volume control. A clear attraction to headphone users.
Additionally, need for another box in the form of an amp is not required; when active speakers are used and these are becoming popular.

Yeah! a limited period offer of 'free cable worth £20' is worth considering to improve sales during the leaner months of the year.

Ali Tait
05-06-2010, 18:13
I think a Caiman sans PS with a few quid knocked off would be attractive to some.The kind of people who would buy the Caiman over the cheaper dacs would I think be more likely to fiddle with a PS or change regs etc.

leo
05-06-2010, 19:28
Nah,you just charge a fair price Stan,instead of ripping people off.

Exactly !
RA is taking the piss charging £91.95 for a SMPS :scratch:

Themis
06-06-2010, 06:02
I am thinking about putting a special link in my message section so that AoS members can get a direct link to special members offers. I wrote the javascript code for something like that last year when I released the Caiman, but I can't remember how I did it:doh:..
Probably by scanning all the <a> tags and looking for the existence of the "Log Out" one. ;)
Or something similar.

dave2010
06-06-2010, 11:32
Interesting case study by 'dave2010' and I agree.
Stan has got his 'marketing mix' right and he is successful.
Tampering with it could prove disasterous.

Yeah! a limited period offer of 'free cable worth £20' is worth considering to improve sales during the leaner months of the year.My comment about the cable was meant to indicate that there was a price bump in the unit being sold, but that this was "offset" by a free cable, which in my case I perhaps don't want. I have bought similar offers on occasion for cables at lower prices (say £5-£10) when I really wanted the main product on offer, but throwing in a cable which many may not want in order to disguise a price hike doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Maybe I'm being mean here ....

Otherwise, as you say, "throwing in a free cable" without a price increase is not such a bad idea if sales are low.

I wonder if Stan has noted that the RA gadgetty thing has cheekily been marketed as "BerryPak"? If he objects he could probably get them to change it. Maybe they were courteous enough to let him know about that.

bmartins
07-06-2010, 13:39
Exactly !
RA is taking the piss charging £91.95 for a SMPS :scratch:

Actually it gets even more interesting, quoting from RA’s website:

"The PowerPak is fitted with a 1m Kimber link cable and high quality DC jack plug. It is fitted with an IEC socket to allow you to fit your choice of mains cable to connect your Power Supply to the mains socket - we suggest using a PowerMaxª Plus or better."


A RA PowerMax Plus mains cable costs an additional £40.45+pp. (on sale now btw). So that makes this PSU almost half the price of a new Caiman!!!

bmartins
07-06-2010, 13:54
:scratch: Actually, the RA PSU is 12V out... The proper Caiman PSU is 15V... either the RA is a super-silent PSU or it's going to be hard to compete with Stan's, right?

StanleyB
07-06-2010, 17:05
Feeding the Caiman with 12V is going to rob you of quite a bit of sound quality. Anyone out there with both the TC-7520 and Caiman can quickly confirm that:). Just use the TC-7520 PSU on the Caiman to see what I mean.

CanDAC
07-06-2010, 18:52
Feeding the Caiman with 12V is going to rob you of quite a bit of sound quality. Anyone out there with both the TC-7520 and Caiman can quickly confirm that:). Just use the TC-7520 PSU on the Caiman to see what I mean.

I'll second that, having originally received a Caiman with the 7520 PSU. After plugging in the Caiman PSU, there was an immediate improvement in SQ.

Marco
07-06-2010, 19:07
Hi "CanDac" and "bmartins",

Can we have your proper first names put in your signatures please?

Ta! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
07-06-2010, 19:29
Marco, have you had the chance to compare a Caiman grade modern DAC to your ancient classic one in a heavy bling case :ner: :) ?

BlueMax
07-06-2010, 19:31
I always thought that hard wiring a mains cable is by far better than introducing contacts; even if they are in the form of best plug and socket on the market.

But RAs underpowered 12v PSU has an IEC socket that "allows you to fit your choice of mains cable to connect your Power Supply to the mains socket".
As for "your choice", RAs recommendatiion is RAs PowerMaxª Plus or better. :eyebrows:

Does his customers really fall for this kind of BS ?

Job CF
West Sussex

Marco
07-06-2010, 19:33
No, Dave, I've not yet heard a Caiman :)

I've heard its predecessor, though, and liked it.

Marco.

Alex_UK
09-06-2010, 20:55
DSJR might be being cheeky Marco - I don't think Dave's heard one either...? Could be wrong there of course, it has happened once before! ;)