Opinions on a watch sale issue needed.

[stairpost]

Hi all,

I'd just like to gauge people's opinion on the following matter if I may?

I recently sold a watch to a chap I have dealt with a couple times in the past, it was a 90s Breitling watch of non diver spec, waterproof to 30m. He contacted me today to say he tried washing it in warm soapy water, which has unfortunately resulted in the watch developing a condensation issue inside the case/crystal. He asked for his money back, but I am disinclined to agree to this.

He has always been a very pleasant person to deal with so I am disappointed this has happened. I am going to help as much as I can by contacting the company I purchased it from as it came with a 12 month warranty. It was a private sale with the buyer collecting in person and paying cash after inspecting the watch. I made no claims about the watch being waterproof, so I strongly suspect/hope that I am within my rights to wash my hands of any responsibility.

All polite opinions would be welcome.

Thanks

Rich.

[AJSki2fly]

When was the service, if it still valid then I would refer him to them. I think under the consumer act even when purchasing new you cannot return an item once 14 days have passed. If the item is second hand then there is little come back unless you offered a return period.

[stairpost]

When was the service, if it still valid then I would refer him to them. I think under the consumer act even when purchasing new you cannot return an item once 14 days have passed. If the item is second hand then there is little come back unless you offered a return period.

I purchased it used from a reputable dealer 3 months ago, from memory it was sold as having had a new battery fitted with reseal. As my sale was private not trade I made no mention of any guarantee offered by me, just the 12 months warranty still in place from the dealer.

The buyer had a good look at the watch before he paid, and I made no claims about waterproofing or the integrity of the seals. In fact he did not ask about that aspect of it at all. I experienced no issues with it during my time owning it and it was worn on a daily basis; the buyer did also openly admit to exposing it to warm soapy water. My understanding of waterproofing standards is that a watch rated to 30m is essentially just splash proof.

[Primalsea]

30m water resistant or waterproof, I think they mean different things to a watch manufacturer and I believe neither explicitly mean that the watch can handle submersion. Also soap contains surfactant which lowers the surface tension of the water, meaning it can penetrate into gaps better. Also the heat can mitigate the effectiveness of the seals and condense any moisture within the air in the watch. When you factor in that you don’t really know what he has done and if its an expensive watch he should have taken it to a professional to have it cleaned I think you have every right not to reimburse.

It might be worth contacting the dealer you bought it from and say that someone washed it in warm soapy water and explain the condensation issue and ask if the guarantee covers that on a 30m watch. If they so no it backs up your refusal.

[Len Co]

Washing a watch in soapy water sounds like a daft thing to do, though waterproof to 30m would imply to me that a dip in the kitchen sink should not be a problem. Tricky one, there’s no answer really. If you don’t want a disagreement you might consider refunding and opening up the watch to try and dry it out (removing the winder is normally easy to get access to the glass as you probably know). I recently did this to my wife’s watch - I think the back had not been pressed on properly WHEN I CHANGED THE BATTERY! If it works out you could sell it again. If you’re not bothered about disagreeing then use whatever arguments you can to tough it out.

[Barry]

If it is not a "diver's watch" or a waterproof model, say a Rolex 'Oyster' (with a screw-on back and screw-down winder), then the watch should only be cleaned with some polish wadding and wiped clean with a paper towel.

The condensation suffered will clear with time, so you have no real reason to reimburse the buyer.

[Stryder5]

Waterproof to 30 metres means it is splash proof, not to be immersed in water. I think your buyer did not understand this and has immersed in water, not your fault, lots of info on this if you Google it.

The watch has been compromised by the buyers action, I wouldn't accept any responsiblity, any value in the watch has been destroyed.

Gary

[Alex_UK]

No warranty would cover what the buyer has done, surely?

[donmarrese]

If it is not a "diver's watch" or a waterproof model, say a Rolex 'Oyster' (with a screw-on back and screw-down winder), then the watch should only be cleaned with some polish wadding and wiped clean with a paper towel.

The condensation suffered will clear with time, so you have no real reason to reimburse the buyer.

+1

he could have used very hot water, or left it immersed in hot soapy water...who the jeff knows what he really did....

[NRG]

With a 30m rating most watches will be rated as water resistant not waterproof as others have stated. If the crown is not a screw down type then all bets are off he probably rinsed it under a tap which has the possibility to introduced water and if the crown was pulled then, well he shouldn’t be complaining.

[thingfish]

Rich, the guy bought it and broke it.

End of.

[Roy S]

Waterproof to 30 metres means it is splash proof, not to be immersed in water.

Exactly right. Washing any watch in hot soapy water strikes me as daft anyway, he's probably ruined it.

[stairpost]

Thanks for all the input, it's much appreciated.

I am going to try to help if I can by contacting the seller I purchased it from, but if that proves fruitless I shall accept no further responsibility. As has been said, he could have done anything to it. I won't entertain the idea of providing a refund.

He was very much on the favourable side of a past deal, in which on reflection I regretted letting a small collection go for less that I would have liked. I'm not in any way saying I'm glad that this has happened, far from it, but that's the nature of it, all sales are final.

[stairpost]

Waterproof to 30 metres means it is splash proof, not to be immersed in water. I think your buyer did not understand this and has immersed in water, not your fault, lots of info on this if you Google it.

The watch has been compromised by the buyers action, I wouldn't accept any responsiblity, any value in the watch has been destroyed.

Gary

That's my understanding too, I would have considered it splash proof. The buyer is actually an avid watch fan and has quite a collection. So I'm surprised and slightly suspicious about the damage to be honest.

[mikeyb]

Probably dropped it in the sink

[Lawrence001]

Thanks for all the input, it's much appreciated.

I am going to try to help if I can by contacting the seller I purchased it from, but if that proves fruitless I shall accept no further responsibility. As has been said, he could have done anything to it. I won't entertain the idea of providing a refund.

He was very much on the favourable side of a past deal, in which on reflection I regretted letting a small collection go for less that I would have liked. I'm not in any way saying I'm glad that this has happened, far from it, but that's the nature of it, all sales are final.He sounds like a chancer to me. 100% his own fault. Bloody cheeky to ask for a refund in my opinion, you shouldn't even be asking yourself, just shows the moral difference between you.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[Edward]

It was a private sale and you made no representations so Caveat Emptor.

However if there is a guarantee of some sort and it is transferable then the buyer should simply get in touch with the guarantor.

Making yourself a postbox between the owner and the guarantor will simply result in frustration on your part.

[Macca]

'Waterproof to 30 meters' should mean just that. If it was just splashproof or 'water resistant' then that's what they'd say. So you should be able to drop it in a sink full of water with no issues.

Legally he has no comeback, he bought it in person and no incorrect claims were made by the seller so I believe caveat emptor applies.

[montesquieu]

Waterproof to 30 metres means it is splash proof, not to be immersed in water. I think your buyer did not understand this and has immersed in water, not your fault, lots of info on this if you Google it.

The watch has been compromised by the buyers action, I wouldn't accept any responsiblity, any value in the watch has been destroyed.

Gary

This. Designation of 30m means it pressure tests to 30m in an air tank. Soap can compromise rubber seals lowering their effectiveness. The buyer may be a nice chap as you say but he's either completely ignorant about what 30m means, or he is taking the proverbial. Let him take this question to any watch forum and ask, he'll get this same answer.

In any case a vintage watch like this carries no guarantee about the performance of the seals and anyone who professed to be a watch collector would know this.




'Waterproof to 30 meters' should mean just that. If it was just splashproof or 'water resistant' then that's what they'd say. So you should be able to drop it in a sink full of water with no issues.

Rated 30m water resistance does not equal 'waterproof to 30 meters'. You don't drop it in the sink or use it in the shower, that's a misunderstanding.

[Macca]

This. Designation of 30m means it pressure tests to 30m in an air tank. Soap can compromise rubber seals lowering their effectiveness. The buyer may be a nice chap as you say but he's either completely ignorant about what 30m means, or he is taking the proverbial. Let him take this question to any watch forum and ask, he'll get this same answer.

In any case a vintage watch like this carries no guarantee about the performance of the seals and anyone who professed to be a watch collector would know this.





Rated 30m water resistance does not equal 'waterproof to 30 meters'. You don't drop it in the sink or use it in the shower, that's a misunderstanding.

Fair enough, what I know about watches could be written on a postage stamp.

[Minstrel SE]

Yep 30m is not a fully waterproof standard and it usually means water resistant. Its a misuse of the term when they are playing at it. For a watch to be considered waterproof it would have to be fully rated/designed as such with a screw crown and screw back

The nicest of people make clumsy mistakes and they have brain aberations about warm soapy water. That is a No No. Many watches are liable to immediately condense.

Its not the way to clean any watch. Even a waterpoof watch I wouldnt clean it in warm soapy water...sounds as though he has used the washing up bowl and washing up liquid.

I would try and contact the manufacturer and get an expert opinion from your local specialist watch dealer. It acts as an expert defense.

[stairpost]

Yep 30m is not a fully waterproof standard and it usually means water resistant. Its a misuse of the term when they are playing at it. For a watch to be considered waterproof it would have to be fully rated/designed as such with a screw crown and screw back

The nicest of people make clumsy mistakes and they have brain aberations about warm soapy water. That is a No No. Many watches are liable to immediately condense.

Its not the way to clean any watch. Even a waterpoof watch I wouldnt clean it in warm soapy water...sounds as though he has used the washing up bowl and washing up liquid.

I would try and contact the manufacturer and get an expert opinion from your local specialist watch dealer. It acts as an expert defense.

I found the following on the Breitling website. I'm satisfied that I can in no way be accountable for his actions.

CLEANING
When cosmetics or perspiration and dust are deposited on a watch case or metal bracelet, skin irritations might occur, and in the long term, oxidation of the steel. To avoid these deposits, clean the metal bracelet periodically using a toothbrush and liquid soap, rinse it under a gentle, thin stream of water and dry it with an absorbent cloth. The watch case can be cleaned with a humid cloth (or gently rinsed when the model is intended for aquatic activities) and shall be dried as well.

[stairpost]

An interesting development, it turns out the watch is rated to 100m, even without a screwdown crown apparently. So it is suitable for limited submersion. It doesn't change my mind that I am not responsible for it, as it was a private sale and I offered no assurances regarding seal integrity. But I am a bit happier about helping him by contacting the dealer that supplied it to me, as it should be more resilient than it was. Although I do think the use of soap was less than sensible.

[Len Co]

'Waterproof to 30 meters' should mean just that. If it was just splashproof or 'water resistant' then that's what they'd say. So you should be able to drop it in a sink full of water with no issues.



I’m not sure now how the watch is described, it seems to vary between waterproof and water resistant as the thread progresses. If it is described as ‘waterproof to 30m’ though I would agree with the above. It is very underhand of watch dealers to use this as code for ‘splashproof’ or anything similar. Watch buffs may be aware of this convention but I suspect the general public isn’t.

[Lawrence001]

I’m not sure now how the watch is described, it seems to vary between waterproof and water resistant as the thread progresses. If it is described as ‘waterproof to 30m’ though I would agree with the above. It is very underhand of watch dealers to use this as code for ‘splashproof’ or anything similar. Watch buffs may be aware of this convention but I suspect the general public isn’t.Agree it implies you can safely dive to 30m wearing the watch. How anything else could be argued by the makers is beyond me. If I bought an amp specified as 30wpc and then found out that really meant it could occasionally be pushed to small kitchen radio levels if really needed, I wouldn't be very happy.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[struth]

Here is some info that shows how much fooey those markings are on majority of watches.

https://www.thrillist.com/gear/what-your-watch-water-resistance-numbers-mean

[stairpost]

I’m not sure now how the watch is described, it seems to vary between waterproof and water resistant as the thread progresses. If it is described as ‘waterproof to 30m’ though I would agree with the above. It is very underhand of watch dealers to use this as code for ‘splashproof’ or anything similar. Watch buffs may be aware of this convention but I suspect the general public isn’t.

It was my mistake to say it was 30m. It's a 90s Breitling Aerospace which I had incorrectly believed to be rated to 30m, which I consider to be splashproof not waterproof. After checking on the Breitling website I have since discovered it is in fact rated to 100m. Which means it should withstand limited submersion. Ultimately, this doesn't change my belief that as a private sale the buyer has no right to his money back. I made no claims, or even mentioned waterproof rating/seal integrity during the sale.

[Len Co]

It was my mistake to say it was 30m. It's a 90s Breitling Aerospace which I had incorrectly believed to be rated to 30m, which I consider to be splashproof not waterproof. After checking on the Breitling website I have since discovered it is in fact rated to 100m. Which means it should withstand limited submersion. Ultimately, this doesn't change my belief that as a private sale the buyer has no right to his money back. I made no claims, or even mentioned waterproof rating/seal integrity during the sale.

Fine, I understand your position Rich, just commenting on these dubious manufacturers/dealers’ descriptions if they are as the above comments suggest.

[stairpost]

Fine, I understand your position Rich, just commenting on these dubious manufacturers/dealers’ descriptions if they are as the above comments suggest.

I couldn't agree more, the ratings seem very misleading. It's possible it all stems from a time when the only people that bought a waterproof watch intended to use it for such a purpose, and were fully knowledgeable. Now, decades later the traditionional ratings have remained the same, but the average purchaser no longer understands it fully enough.

[Patrick Dixon]

Any 'vintage' watch must be pressure tested and properly maintained for the waterproof rating to be valid.

When you sell a secondhand watch it's prudent to explicitly exclude any guarantees as to waterproofness.

[stairpost]

Any 'vintage' watch must be pressure tested and properly maintained for the waterproof rating to be valid.

When you sell a secondhand watch it's prudent to explicitly exclude any guarantees as to waterproofness.

I shall certainly be doing so from now on. Although, as that was the last of my watch clear out, it will be a long time before I have another for sale.

Fortunately, I made no mention of it at all, and after a bit of research it seems in making no claims about it, I'm not liable for it failing.

[Minstrel SE]

For me its a grey area that needs tightening up on. Ive seen watches rated at 100m that I would not dip in the sink, never mind swim in.

I think they have to be proper divers watches rated as 200m with a deep sea construction

Ive just sold a couple of Sekonda Xpose watches that have swimming advertised on the box. Having looked at them I would not rate them as swimming watches....flimsy push crown, plastic body and rudimentary rubber seal on a snap back. I would have tried them but they were too bulky for my wrist and I didnt lose money on them

At £15 the pair I told the buyer he could try them. I offered no guarantee and sekonda had already done the advertising

[stairpost]

For me its a grey area that needs tightening up on. Ive seen watches rated at 100m that I would not dip in the sink, never mind swim in.

I think they have to be proper divers watches rated as 200m with a deep sea construction


Common sense should play a big part. I wore the watch daily for the 3 months I owned it and had no issues at all, the new owner had it for 3 days when he damaged it. The design and construction of the watch did not in any way lead me to think I could safely wear it when at risk of water damage.

[mad-moon]

Common sense should play a big part. I wore the watch daily for the 3 months I owned it and had no issues at all, the new owner had it for 3 days when he damaged it. The design and construction of the watch did not in any way lead me to think I could safely wear it when at risk of water damage.

Yeah...no comebacks....first question I'd ask if buying a watch of this type..Is it watertight?...I recently bought a used Rotary watch with a damaged crystal, which I had replaced for a new one. They also replaced the seal and the watch company pressure tested the watch too and said it was fine...I still would not immerse it in water, never mind go for a swim wearing it...it doesn't state a depth the watch can go too...it is just a Dolphin Standard Rotary..

[Gaz]

What's the old saying?

You get what you pay for?

My £50 Gshock gets worn in the shower, swimming, snorkeling, washed in soapy water etc and 5 years on it works perfectly.