View Full Version : Valve/Tube amplification vs. Solid State
magiccarpetride
23-05-2010, 17:53
A friend dropped off his Golden Tube Audio SE-40 power amp and left it at my house to allow me to do some auditioning and A/B listening comparison. I use DPA 200s power amp with the Caiman as pre-amp.
Golden Tube SE-40 received a lot of glowing reviews over time. There are lots of complaints against this amp, mostly with regards to the problems with the tubes etc. stemming from less than perfect design. However, when the amp is working properly, many people seem to agree that it gives a top notch valve sound. I couldn't wait to hear for myself:)
Shockingly, it proved quite inferior to my solid state DPA 200s! It just lacks corporeality that my solid state has in troves. The SE-40 seems to add a lot of syntactical sugar to the music that is pushed through it, something that DPA 200s just doesn't do.
Now, maybe that's what valve aficionados actually like, and that's why they prefer the valve sound. But in my opinion, it just ruins the listening experience. The sound is overly sweet, smooth, warm, silky, to the point of sounding sickening and syrupy. Gone are the balls, the grunt, the rough at edges sound that real music instruments produce. Everything is wrapped in the super slick shrinkwrap of warmth.
Is that the case with other valve power amps, or is this just a 'dialect' that Golden Tubes SE-40 speak?
The Vinyl Adventure
23-05-2010, 18:02
Is that the case with other valve power amps
nope, not mine :)
mine would beat you up if you accused it of being soft and smooth
Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 18:04
mine would beat you up if you accused it of being soft and smooth
:lolsign:
I used to think that but when valves are done right with the right speakers they are a complete joy No one would describe my system of sounding to warm or silky and to portray the music I enjoy this type of sound just would not work It possible to get bags of dynamics scale and energy from valves
I had a dedicated flat earher come over a month ago who has Naim gear and he was totally blown away
Doesn't matter what is used, it's the implementation and end result that counts..
For example, I don't think the 1960's Radford classics as particularly "valvey" myself, but my Quad II's definitely are - bandwidth limited with a sweet and cuddly quality to the frequencies in between.
Transformer coupled valve amps have one major problem - the output transformer!!! This will raise the output impedance as seen by the speakers and may alter the way the speaker sounds, as well as possibly beggar up the crossover behaviour in worst cases. Careful choice is essential - something I understand Anthony TD does very carefully.
Transistor amps can measure an order of magnitude better, but sometimes and in my opinion, design laziness took over and despite good basic measurements, the sound quality and deeper measurements showed the incompetence of the finished product.
The thing is, the compression carried out in mixing recordings, coupled with HiFi being a listening-only hobby, without the musicians actually being there performing, needs IMO some sort of aural magic in the system to enable us to suspend disbelief. GOOD solid state and valve gear can help do this and the likes of Glenn Croft have used hybrid designs to try to bring out the best in both technologies. I think Glenn has done an amazing job, as the FET output devices negate the need for expensive output transformers and the valve input stage will not destroy the reverb and "atmosphere" in the signal...
To get Naim to come anywhere near a decent valve amp, you have to rewind to the 120 and 250 power amps of the late 70's - the bolt-up ones... get 'em re-capped and tastefully upgraded (Avondale?) and you have a wonderful amp by ANY standards. The CB and Olive ones never came close, so harsh were they by comparison.
Ali Tait
23-05-2010, 18:36
Either the amp wasn't working right,it's just crap or it doesn't like your speakers.Maggies are hard to drive are they not?
hifi_dave
23-05-2010, 18:54
Not hard to drive, just difficult to control. Those panels flapping around need an amp with 'grip'.
Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 19:04
To get Naim to come anywhere near a decent valve amp, you have to rewind to the 120 and 250 power amps of the late 70's - the bolt-up ones... get 'em re-capped and tastefully upgraded (Avondale?) and you have a wonderful amp by ANY standards. The CB and Olive ones never came close, so harsh were they by comparison.
Theres a bolt up '250' on flea Bay £50 on it. not that i'd be seen dead with one ;)
magiccarpetride
23-05-2010, 19:05
Not hard to drive, just difficult to control. Those panels flapping around need an amp with 'grip'.
My Maggies are famous in my little circle of audio friends for having a big, fantastically layered, fully controlled and airy sound and soundstage. That's in addition to their balls-to-the-wall fully textured, unapologetic sound quality (all this got intensely augmented when I throw into the mix a well burnt-in Caiman).
And all of that just magically disappeared when I took the DPA 200s out and plugged the Golden Tube SE-40. All I got by switching to the valve amp is sugar coating that pushed the balls-to-the-wall into an extremely distant horizon. The volume level stayed the same, the resolution stayed the same, but the reality factor got replaced by the dreamy creamy warmth.
Ali Tait
23-05-2010, 19:13
Aye,but it's not the abilities of the speakers in question,it's the ability of the valve amp to drive them.I have the same problem with my statics.Valve amps not powerful enough sound poor,enough power and they sing.
It is possible to get valve amps with lots of grip but usually not cheap
These valve amps are just the ticket.
http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/500_Y2K.htmlhttp://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/300brc99.html
And a nice preamp to match.
Steve Toy
23-05-2010, 20:17
Hamish's amp has the kind of low end grip that embarrasses many a solid state amp including the Olive Naim Nap 180 and probably the 250 too from that era.
The next step up from that is a Copper amp but they are not cheap. Well worth the money though as they fall nicely into the last amp you'll ever buy category.
All Anthony's designs could safely be described as "thermionic Naim."
Choose your speakers with care and you are in flat earth heaven.
Stratmangler
23-05-2010, 20:43
Either the amp wasn't working right,it's just crap or it doesn't like your speakers.Maggies are hard to drive are they not?
My thoughts too Ali.
Ali Tait
23-05-2010, 21:12
What's the impedance curve like for the Maggies?
Theres a bolt up '250' on flea Bay £50 on it. not that i'd be seen dead with one ;)
Your loss matey. A sorted one (serviced and set up right) sounds NOTHING like the godawful CB and Olive versions that followed. A massive, massive difference - they couldn't be further apart in "character" if they tried.....
Just realised that you really need 8 Ohm MINIMUM speakers with a typical valve amp to keep the control. Marco's Tannoys should be 11 Ohm minimum assuming the new crossover hasn't changed things..
Steve Toy
23-05-2010, 22:22
The Copper amp transformers are wound for 6 ohms.
magiccarpetride
23-05-2010, 22:32
Just realised that you really need 8 Ohm MINIMUM speakers with a typical valve amp to keep the control. Marco's Tannoys should be 11 Ohm minimum assuming the new crossover hasn't changed things..
My Maggies are 5 Ohm. Lost for tube amplification?
Spectral Morn
23-05-2010, 22:52
Probably one of the worst valve amplifiers to try first. Unreliable, veiled, overpriced crap. I would check the bias setting on it as it has probably gone off but even right its poor.
Regards D S D L
seems to add a lot of syntactical sugar to the music that is pushed through it
You get this with a lot of designs both solid state and valve
That type of signature can sound right to some and totally wrong to others :)
The Grand Wazoo
23-05-2010, 23:42
You can't judge valve amplifiers as a whole on the basis of one amp paired short term with one pair of speakers. The permutations are incalculable as are the possible sounds available.
magiccarpetride
23-05-2010, 23:44
You get this with a lot of designs both solid state and valve
That type of signature can sound right to some and totally wrong to others :)
That would be my impressions exactly. It's all up to the individual taste.
Perhaps you could try a hybrid design ? A Croft, for instance. :o
There are plenty of good tube amps around, as others said.
Ali Tait
24-05-2010, 07:03
My Maggies are 5 Ohm. Lost for tube amplification?
Is that minimum or nominal? A 5 ohm minimum should not be a problem.In any case,a lot of valve amps have 4 ohm taps on the output to cater for this.On the other hand,my statics actually go down to 2 ohms at one point in the treble,though the rest of the frequency range is an easy load,so they sound better on the 8 ohm tap rather than the 4 ohm tap.YMMV.
Maggies need controlled POWER!!!!
I had a dem once, of some MG1c's with two Levinson power amps. The smaller one sounded good, the bigger one just opened out the soundstage and made it more believable..
Rare Bird
24-05-2010, 07:29
Krell 'KSA100' Nay mind Toobes
Guys,
I think we might have to face up to the fact that Alex may unfortunately have heard one of the many cuddly, shit-sounding valve amps around that give the side a bad name, rather than there being any reasons why it might not have been 'suitable' with his speakers (although the points raised in that respect are nevertheless valid).......
All I'd say, Alex, is don't allow one bad experience to taint your view of valve amps, because what you heard is in no way typical of the best of the breed - far from it!!
As a valve amp user and lover, I (along with others here) could never live with an amp which sounded as you have described, so don't go thinking that is what we love about valve amps.... :rolleyes:
Good valve amps sound fast, dynamic, tight, grippy', rhythmic and tuneful, as well as hugely detailed, wide-open and beguilingly mellifluous - all in a way that to my ears so far escapes solid-state amps, which often sound grainy, 'grey' and dynamically flat in comparison. The former is certainly what I experience when I listen to mine at home.
Much of what you hear with valve amps is down to the quality (or not!) of the mains and output transformers, and how it's been voiced by the manufacturer. Over-complicated circuits, using poor quality components, are also often at the root cause of the soft, syrupy, overly-euphonic sound you describe, so I'd simply put what you heard down to experience and remain open-minded in future about what good valve amps can do.
Trust me, when you hear a good one in the right system, you'll know, as the huge grin across your chops and sense of astonishment will be a dead giveaway!! :cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
24-05-2010, 08:22
I had a dem of I think smga's many years ago.The dealer was using a PP valve amp of his own design.Sounded great as I remember.
Rare Bird
24-05-2010, 08:40
Your loss matey.
Dave: i wur jus bein sarcicastic :lolsign:
chris@panteg
24-05-2010, 08:57
If i can add my tuppence worth.
With any Valve amp! power supply is critical as well as output transformers , try to avoid any which use solid state rectifiers ! unfortunately many modern designs do even some of the top Audion 300b and 845 amps use SS rectifiers .
They are still lovely amps but having heard the difference myself i would rather stick with
my 740a until i can afford a Puresound A30 or 2A3 both use Valve rectification although the A30 can be transformed still further if fitted with a Border patrol psu .
http://www.borderpatrol.net/hifi+_border%20patrol_lowres.pdf
Is the Copper amp around the 3k mark ? .
I should add that my Quads sound AMAZING driving Epos ES14's with Naim A5 cables. The two just gell beautifully and the whole becomes greater than the sum of their parts.
I wonder if Anthony TD has a poor fund for people like me who want a copper circuit amp in a cheaper case and with 75% discount :D
Nah, best not - don't want the riff-raff owning such things eh??????
Rare Bird
24-05-2010, 09:33
I wonder if Anthony TD has a poor fund for people like me who want a copper circuit amp in a cheaper case and with 75% discount :D
Why not Dave an aluminium case would be no different to a copper case sound wise.
chris@panteg
24-05-2010, 09:33
No harm in trying Dave:)
The Copper amp is rather good and that's probably an understatement .
Steve Toy
24-05-2010, 09:48
The Puresound A30 can be modified by Anthony - this is what Hamish uses. The modifications give it more grip and more guts as well as making it more rhythmic and tuneful.
The Copper amps are more than 3K - POA if you contact Anthony as they are built to order.
chris@panteg
24-05-2010, 11:12
Ah thanks Steve i had forgotten about Hamish's amp ' how ignorant of me .
I will have to re read that thread ! the copper amp is going to be out of reach for me but the A30 modded by Anthony ' is more realistic although i am lusting after the 2A3 ' that needs careful speaker matching though .
The Vinyl Adventure
24-05-2010, 11:30
the puresound is in turn a variation on this i believe... maybe Anthony could just mod one of these to be along the lines of mine
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bewitch-6550-KT88-Tube-Hi-End-Integrated-Amplifier-New-/260476021060?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item3ca594a944#ht_5411wt_939
family tree
http://www.ebay.great-tube.com/EB/products/amplifiers/integ_amp/AI-BW-6550/photo_01.jpg
http://www.puresound.info/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/puresounda30.jpg.w560h420.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/8b7312e6.jpg
chris@panteg
24-05-2010, 11:36
Hi Hamish
As i understand it although it looks identical ! Guy's version has better output transformers and other modifications ,also the A30 puts out 30w not 60w of the Bewitch so something very different there .
chris@panteg
24-05-2010, 11:42
Hamish
You must be very happy with that system ' looking good, i really do need some glass bottles back in my system .
Rare Bird
24-05-2010, 11:45
Looking good hamish apart from the top two items :lol:
Joking aside why not try Guys (Puresound) CD player ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
24-05-2010, 12:16
Hi Hamish
As i understand it although it looks identical ! Guy's version has better output transformers and other modifications ,also the A30 puts out 30w not 60w of the Bewitch so something very different there .
yeah, i remember steve telling me something similar as reason for him getting the puresound version and not the bewitch one...
that said though, steve (electric beach - i think) has a td modded chinese amp i think... less initial outlay and once anthony has done his magic it would probably not be a million miles off... i dunno, anthonys the man to talk to, i dont really know what im on about :)
You must be very happy with that system ' looking good, i really do need some glass bottles back in my system .
yes very happy, a wise man not so long ago said to me "hamish, just bloody listen to the thing for a few months" ... good advice it was to... im very happy with how its sounding now... although the speakers still sound boxy... im coping with it :)
The Vinyl Adventure
24-05-2010, 12:17
Looking good hamish apart from the top two items :lol:
Joking aside why not try Guys (Puresound) CD player ;)
C.....D..... player.... i dont follow, do you mean to tell me cd's can actually be played through a hifi... sounds a bit archaic to me andre... im only just getting used to these big black spinning disks .....
Rare Bird
24-05-2010, 13:02
C.....D..... player.... i dont follow, do you mean to tell me cd's can actually be played through a hifi... sounds a bit archaic to me andre... im only just getting used to these big black spinning disks .....
You don't wanna be playing with Vinyl it's well past its sell by date mate..
fad will ware off soon
:lol:
anthonyTD
24-05-2010, 13:09
I should add that my Quads sound AMAZING driving Epos ES14's with Naim A5 cables. The two just gell beautifully and the whole becomes greater than the sum of their parts.
I wonder if Anthony TD has a poor fund for people like me who want a copper circuit amp in a cheaper case and with 75% discount :D
Nah, best not - don't want the riff-raff owning such things eh??????
:eek::lolsign:
Seriously though.
the copper amps were/are my idea of a no compromise class A push-pull all valve design hence the copper chassis is an integral part of its design, I really wish I could offer an amp at a much more affordable price that has all of the magic that people who own the few that I have built continually rave about here, the first versions were produced over 12 years ago now, the chassis were hand made, the transformers were hand wound, the circuit is all hard wired with shortest possible signal path using all solid copper cable, etc,etc.
However, some of the modified amps I have completed for customers over the years get close to most of their attributes.
I always said I would not make anymore of the copper amps because of their time consuming nature but I have been persuaded by one member here to re-consider, due to my other work load commitments he knows he will have to wait for it, lets hope it lives up to his expectations!
once again thank you all for your comments and support for my products here its what makes it all worth while, ohh,,, and the money comes in handy as well I guess.:eyebrows:
Regards, Anthony, TD...
Ian Walker
24-05-2010, 13:37
I have been persuaded by one member here to re-consider
All ive got to say is....Chassis bent yet is it Daftee?:lol:
:eek::lolsign:
Seriously though.
the copper amps were/are my idea of a no compromise class A push-pull all valve design hence the copper chassis is an integral part of its design, I really wish I could offer an amp at a much more affordable price that has all of the magic that people who own the few that I have built continually rave about here, the first versions were produced over 12 years ago now, the chassis were hand made, the transformers were hand wound, the circuit is all hard wired with shortest possible signal path using all solid copper cable, etc,etc.
However, some of the modified amps I have completed for customers over the years get close to most of their attributes.
I always said I would not make anymore of the copper amps because of their time consuming nature but I have been persuaded by one member here to re-consider, due to my other work load commitments he knows he will have to wait for it, lets hope it lives up to his expectations!
once again thank you all for your comments and support for my products here its what makes it all worth while, ohh,,, and the money comes in handy as well I guess.:eyebrows:
Regards, Anthony, TD...
I know you guys have got to make a living, but still..............:mental:
I've been informed that my contracted 8.25 hours per week will end at end of August due to cutbacks, budgets etc... so will have to rely on my casual work bringing in more hours in September. I knew that we're all going to have a very hard time, but I was hoping that TA posts wouldn't be axed...
A bit of thread cr@p... Around a third of year 11's seem to know where they're at and where they wish to go. Another third are drifting a bit but seem to be gradually getting their heads together. It's the final third I worry about, who w@nk around, take no notice of any advice given and just dream their way at Mummy's expense into their twenties. "Time" by PF was written for them (me included, only make that thirties in my case..).
Rare Bird
24-05-2010, 18:47
I know you guys have got to make a living, but still..............:mental:
:lolsign:
By the way, it's ME who's mental.................
Spectral Morn
24-05-2010, 19:08
I know you guys have got to make a living, but still..............:mental:
I've been informed that my contracted 8.25 hours per week will end at end of August due to cutbacks, budgets etc... so will have to rely on my casual work bringing in more hours in September. I knew that we're all going to have a very hard time, but I was hoping that TA posts wouldn't be axed...
A bit of thread cr@p... Around a third of year 11's seem to know where they're at and where they wish to go. Another third are drifting a bit but seem to be gradually getting their heads together. It's the final third I worry about, who w@nk around, take no notice of any advice given and just dream their way at Mummy's expense into their twenties. "Time" by PF was written for them (me included, only make that thirties in my case..).
Sorry to read your bad news Dave :(
Regards D S D L
I know you guys have got to make a living, but still..............:mental:
The hand-wound transformers alone would cost about £1500!! These are not yer normal 'off-the-shelf' jobs ;)
Hope things pick up soon, job-wise, Dave. Don't worry, the good guys always win in the end :)
Marco.
It's a real pita to be honest Neil - thanks for concern. The Head kept repeating that it wasn't me or my performance, but the dictates from the Governors to cut the budget. I wasn't the only casualty either.... I suppose we'll survive somehow before I'm forced to sell my museum of audio bits..... ;)
Back to valvey ss amps/preamps...
Haven't started a thread on this, but during my quest for a signal line buffer (and before the X10-D, which I'll report on shortly once Clive has cashed my cheque..), I bought a cheap late model Quad 33.....
Bear with me guys please... On receipt, the 33 sounded just how I remembered, with a "nice" midrange, but shallow in spatial info and with a clipped, thumpy bass and a tinny quality to the treble. None of the caps looked knackered, but I bought the full Dada cap/resistor/diode kit and set to work with a soldering iron. A replacement 16V Zener (as part of the supply upgrade from 12V to 16V) later, the addition of 1uF WIMA poly output caps to replace the 68uF ones (takes the bass filter to below 10Hz from 35Hz I understand) and a couple of weeks regular use driving the headphone amp and it sounds bloomin amazing. Sooo sweet without being cloying and air/space that the Croft is used to and the AVI sort of gets to. The bass is now free-flowing and incredibly "tuneful," all the "mechanical" qualities of this 1980 example completely gone. I understand that similar joy can be gleaned from a re-furbished 303 as well, cap coupling not withstanding...
What I'm trying to say is that I still feel that it doesn't matter about the devices used. It's the design and "feel" the designer has. The Quad isn't fitted with designer caps, just good quality modern lowish esr electrolytics and a Wima poly coupling cap on the audio output. The output stage is actually quite simple once the tone control feeding stage is removed or not used (see Richard Bryce's site for pics and more info) and doesn't feature op-amps, which can over-complicate things I reckon, and this is one area where valves are so good as the circuits used seem simpler by far.. [Edit] - I left the tone controls in place with the defeat switch being used - or not..... :)
Enough from me. I've gone on long enough...
Dave really hopes it works out. It is very tough at the moment and totally understand how stressful this is
Many thanks all... :)
At least I have some wonderful music to listen to through an unlikely, but entertaining stereo :)
Rare Bird
24-05-2010, 23:32
I've always seen the '33'/'303' as the best Quad product for me i just love em.Don't matter what you use, i use some right old shit in other people eyes but to me i know what sounds right bollox to what everyone else thinks.
anthonyTD
25-05-2010, 09:23
Many thanks all... :)
At least I have some wonderful music to listen to through an unlikely,
but entetaining stereo :)
at the end of the day thats what its all about!:)
good luck with everything dave.
A...
magiccarpetride
25-05-2010, 16:14
You can't judge valve amplifiers as a whole on the basis of one amp paired short term with one pair of speakers. The permutations are incalculable as are the possible sounds available.
I'm not really judging, just wondering out loud. Everybody's talking about the benefits of valve amplification in how it makes the sound much warmer, so I was wondering if by 'warmer' they mean mushy and sugar coated?
magiccarpetride
25-05-2010, 16:16
Is that minimum or nominal? A 5 ohm minimum should not be a problem.In any case,a lot of valve amps have 4 ohm taps on the output to cater for this.On the other hand,my statics actually go down to 2 ohms at one point in the treble,though the rest of the frequency range is an easy load,so they sound better on the 8 ohm tap rather than the 4 ohm tap.YMMV.
I think it's nominal. But, according to the specs, the efficiency of my Maggies is rated at only 82 Db (I think they are the most inefficient speakers ever built). That may explain why the Golden Tube SE-40 was not able to drive them/control them properly. SE-40 just lost its grip on the speakers, and everything just dissolved into the background.
Rare Bird
25-05-2010, 16:17
I'm not really judging, just wondering out loud. Everybody's talking about the benefits of valve amplification in how it makes the sound much warmer, so I was wondering if by 'warmer' they mean mushy and sugar coated?
I prefer the wooley early '70's transistor sound :eyebrows:
magiccarpetride
25-05-2010, 16:18
Maggies need controlled POWER!!!!
I had a dem once, of some MG1c's with two Levinson power amps. The smaller one sounded good, the bigger one just opened out the soundstage and made it more believable..
What kind of controlled power? High current, or high wattage, or both? Can you give me some more concrete numbers, so that I know what to shop for?
magiccarpetride
25-05-2010, 16:20
Trust me, when you hear a good one in the right system, you'll know, as the huge grin across your chops and sense of astonishment will be a dead giveaway!! :cool:
Marco.
I believe you. My only question is: at what price point might I expect that huge grin to hit my face?
SOME valve amps make the sound warmer, but the Graaf and OTL (Croft) amps I knew (and owned in the case of the OTL) were cool and very finely etched in their sound. The Tube tech Genesis amps I owned hit HARD between the ears when they were working ok, but soon went soggy as they ran the tubes too hard (I'm sure this could be corrected now, either by running them gentler with less power, or using higher rated output valves).
I wish Sony had continued with their 1970's V-FET designs. the V-FET's were specially selected and hideously expensive to replace if they went down, but used with a speaker with a taut bass end, they were truly magical - the 5650 and 8650 being the two models imported here. I think the V-Fet designs went into mk2's in the US and there may have been an ES model using this layout too, but by the late seventies, the UK top end market was being polarised already by the "terrible twosome" and was locked tight when Ricardo started Absolute Sounds. I can't remember if Ab Sounds imported Threshold back then, but they were good trannie amps, if not as nimble as a bolt-up Naim or as charming as the early EAR 509's..
Rare Bird
25-05-2010, 16:28
I wish Sony had continued with their 1970's V-FET designs.
Sony TA8650 :eyebrows:
What kind of controlled power? High current, or high wattage, or both? Can you give me some more concrete numbers, so that I know what to shop for?
An MC2 450/750 or 1250 amp will just about suffice I think ;)
I'm told this maker's amps in the series above will wipe the pants off many exalted solid-state amps.
ATC's new power amp should be good to go as well, as long as it will drive the load without overheating (the MC2 won't)
The old but great black-breeze-block Levinson's (27 era?) were what I heard with 1990's Maggies and the bigger one (£5K back then) was amazingly good. HiFi Dave prefers these to the later blingy ones IIRC.. 1990's Levinson was a hugely better range than Krell had until the latter's FPB models arrived. The Krells hold their value better 'cos Levinson weren't often if ever given to 'Snooze to review (for very definite political reasons I understand).
anthonyTD
25-05-2010, 19:35
I think it's nominal. But, according to the specs, the efficiency of my Maggies is rated at only 82 Db (I think they are the most inefficient speakers ever built). That may explain why the Golden Tube SE-40 was not able to drive them/control them properly. SE-40 just lost its grip on the speakers, and everything just dissolved into the background.
hi alex,
what i am about to say has been written a few times elsewhere here but i will explain again as your relatively new here:)
its not just about the sensitivity where valve amps are concerned, to get the correct power transfer from a traditional valve amp you need to use speakers that maintain as flat an impedance as posible through out the whole audio frequency band, thats why when choosing speakers to partner a traditional output transformer coupled valve amp be it push-pull or single ended its most important to study any graphs that are available to make sure there are no severe dips or peaks outside of the nominal given impedance, otherwise you will get a loss of power either way, which depending on where the dips and peaks occur and their severity they can cause severe and very odd results.
transistor amps on the same set of speakers will have very diffrent results.
i hope this helps.
A...
That explains why the Harbeths and Spendors don't sound at their best with the Quad II's, as although their impedances are safe with no nasty dips, the curve (on the Spendors especially) go up and down like yo-yo's, mine hitting 32 Ohms at crossover as I recall...
hi alex,
what i am about to say has been written a few times elsewhere here but i will explain again as your relatively new here:)
its not just about the sensitivity where valve amps are concerned, to get the correct power transfer from a traditional valve amp you need to use speakers that maintain as flat an impedance as posible through out the whole audio frequency band, thats why when choosing speakers to partner a traditional output transformer coupled valve amp be it push-pull or single ended its most important to study any graphs that are available to make sure there are no severe dips or peaks outside of the nominal given impedance, otherwise you will get a loss of power either way, which depending on where the dips and peaks occur and their severity they can cause severe and very odd results.
transistor amps on the same set of speakers will have very diffrent results.
i hope this helps.
A...
Great point
This is why when buying a valve amp it is essential to partner it well. Get it right and you have a great sounding system get it wrong well..............
Ali Tait
25-05-2010, 21:04
With those specs I think you'll struggle to get a good valve amp to drive those Maggies.you could build this-
http://www.chambonino.com/construct/const9.html
That should drive them!
magiccarpetride
25-05-2010, 21:11
With those specs I think you'll struggle to get a good valve amp to drive those Maggies.you could build this-
http://www.chambonino.com/construct/const9.html
That should drive them!
It was a real uphill battle for me to soften my wife to accept the Maggies into our house. Only after she'd been bowled over how visceral they make the music sound did she agree that we keep them.
And that pretty much spends my entire alloted quota for this lifetime as far as hauling in hideous hi fi equipment goes;)
magiccarpetride
25-05-2010, 21:12
hi alex,
what i am about to say has been written a few times elsewhere here but i will explain again as your relatively new here:)
its not just about the sensitivity where valve amps are concerned, to get the correct power transfer from a traditional valve amp you need to use speakers that maintain as flat an impedance as posible through out the whole audio frequency band, thats why when choosing speakers to partner a traditional output transformer coupled valve amp be it push-pull or single ended its most important to study any graphs that are available to make sure there are no severe dips or peaks outside of the nominal given impedance, otherwise you will get a loss of power either way, which depending on where the dips and peaks occur and their severity they can cause severe and very odd results.
transistor amps on the same set of speakers will have very diffrent results.
i hope this helps.
A...
Thank you, I didn't know that. Don't have the impedance diagram, will try to get it.
Stratmangler
25-05-2010, 21:13
Alex - it's not the done thing around here, but you have PM.
To bring your attention to the fact, that is.....
wow that some crazy kit Ali
Ali Tait
25-05-2010, 21:20
That should drive Apogees,never mind Maggies!
The Vinyl Adventure
25-05-2010, 21:21
With those specs I think you'll struggle to get a good valve amp to drive those Maggies.you could build this-
http://www.chambonino.com/construct/const9.html
That should drive them!
ha! I wonder if it sounds any good?
ha! I wonder if it sounds any good?
Looks pretty slick.
The Vinyl Adventure
25-05-2010, 21:37
If my amp would beat you up I recon that one might shag your gran and make you think it was your idea
They use a stripped-down version of that amp to power the Large Hadron Collider.
Hey, Joe - not long until your 1000th post.... I wonder what it'll be? ;)
Make sure it's extra-special!
Marco.
Hey, Joe - not long until your 1000th post.... I wonder what it'll be? ;)
Marco.
Hmmm. Perhaps a link to a Monty Python sketch?
Why not? Make it a classic!
Marco.
Stratmangler
25-05-2010, 21:57
Hmmm. Perhaps a link to a Monty Python sketch?
:D
chris@panteg
25-05-2010, 22:20
A classic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s
hi alex,
what i am about to say has been written a few times elsewhere here but i will explain again as your relatively new here:)
its not just about the sensitivity where valve amps are concerned, to get the correct power transfer from a traditional valve amp you need to use speakers that maintain as flat an impedance as posible through out the whole audio frequency band, thats why when choosing speakers to partner a traditional output transformer coupled valve amp be it push-pull or single ended its most important to study any graphs that are available to make sure there are no severe dips or peaks outside of the nominal given impedance, otherwise you will get a loss of power either way, which depending on where the dips and peaks occur and their severity they can cause severe and very odd results.
transistor amps on the same set of speakers will have very diffrent results.
i hope this helps.
A...
Hi Anthony
I can sort of understand that, although I would probably need someone to hold my hand when it comes to it, but thats a whole different story.. and probably involves privacy laws.
Here's a question though. Rather than choosing speakers to match the amp, is it possible to reverse this, and choose an optimum amp to match specific speakers, which is what I am facing really :doh:
anthonyTD
26-05-2010, 12:46
Hi Anthony
I can sort of understand that, although I would probably need someone to hold my hand when it comes to it, but thats a whole different story.. and probably involves privacy laws.:D
Here's a question though. Rather than choosing speakers to match the amp, is it possible to reverse this, and choose an optimum amp to match specific speakers, which is what I am facing really :doh:
hi steve,
i supose it would be posible but rather more difficult than just getting a pair of speakers with a flatish impedance curve!!!
A...
hi steve,
i supose it would be posible but rather more difficult than just getting a pair of speakers with a flatish impedance curve!!!
A...
Well...I 'spose its been my difficulty all along really. If domestically I could accomodate a pair of big ol Tannoys, I would have done it.
I'll start a new thread closer to the time when I'm looking properly..but I'm working backwards from stand mounted Sonus Fabers in my mind.
magiccarpetride
26-05-2010, 17:18
hi alex,
what i am about to say has been written a few times elsewhere here but i will explain again as your relatively new here:)
its not just about the sensitivity where valve amps are concerned, to get the correct power transfer from a traditional valve amp you need to use speakers that maintain as flat an impedance as posible through out the whole audio frequency band, thats why when choosing speakers to partner a traditional output transformer coupled valve amp be it push-pull or single ended its most important to study any graphs that are available to make sure there are no severe dips or peaks outside of the nominal given impedance, otherwise you will get a loss of power either way, which depending on where the dips and peaks occur and their severity they can cause severe and very odd results.
transistor amps on the same set of speakers will have very diffrent results.
i hope this helps.
A...
Here is what I found on the planar speaker forum (the topic was 'planar speakers and tubes'):
"Magneplanar speakers present an easy load to amplifiers. The impedance curve is mostly resistive and isn't as erratic as most speakers (it's not perfect and there are speakers with better impedance curves). The speaker's low impedance is more difficult for cheapy SS amps than it is for tube amps because the output trannie for tube amps is used for impedance matching." (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tubes&n=2090)
I've also checked the impedance curve diagram for my speakers -- it looks pretty flat (there is a spike around 800-900 Hz; the rest is a flatliner).
From all this I draw a conclusion that Golden Tube SE-40 don't sound that good not because my Maggies are driving them nuts, but because they just... don't perform that well.
Am I correct?
Hi Steve,
You can do so much better than Sonus Faber. Why not go for something genuinely valve friendly and good looking such as:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8934/dulcetreference3a.jpg (http://img46.imageshack.us/i/dulcetreference3a.jpg/)
Dulcet Reference 3A.
Couldn't get an exact price on those...
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2439/feastrex.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/feastrex.jpg/)
Feastrex.
Prices start at £5,970 to approx £40,000.
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5320/image11224928300harbeth.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/image11224928300harbeth.jpg/)
Harbeth HL-P3ES.
Prices starting from as little as £1299 in Cherry.
And probably my choice......
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9205/wlmdivamonitors.jpg (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/wlmdivamonitors.jpg/)
The awesomely superb WLM Diva Monitors!
Some info from the manufacturer:
The Austrian WLM Diva Monitor (don’t be put off by the term) stand-mount is a quite remarkable loudspeaker, it provides for adjustment of the high frequencies enabling its output to be contoured for individual listening environments. Of course the high frequencies can also be ‘tuned’ to ameliorate the tiresome sound of some compact discs and, by using the Diva Control Unit (£445 extra) you can operate the speakers in a partly active mode. The mid and low frequencies can be adjusted to the surrounding environment by active recification during the reproduction of those frequencies. If required, noticeable bass extension, increased warmth and fullness of sound can be achieved. Having said all that, and despite what seems to be the intrusion of technology, at 97dB sensitivity these speakers delight especially in the companionship of valve amplifiers.
The quality of music reproduction from WLM’s Diva loudspeakers is such that with suitable recordings (Rodrigo y Gabriella as a particular example) they have recreated sufficient ‘realism’ for visitors outside our listening room to peep in - expecting to see the musicians!
The Divas provide an exceptionally open and detailed performance and happily, despite the unfortunate ‘monitor’ tag, they don’t display the typically arid, soul-less presentation of so many studio monitor types. We think they’re easily able to match the delicately informative BBC derived variants but win hands down on dynamics, perceived energy, presence and sheer pace. The simple driver arrangement and forward facing port does ensure a wonderful cohesion with sparkling verve and rhythmic excitement and, most importantly they really can engage with that vital ‘magic’ in musical performances of all types.
Although the WLM Divas are stand-mount loudspeakers, they’re certainly not small and can effortlessly fill a medium size room with a huge soundstage, indeed for those fortunate enthusiasts with a large listening space, the Diva’s bass output can be further supplemented with the addition of the company’s Duo subwoofer.
More info here: http://www.wlm-loudspeakers.com/indexengl.html
Diva (Standmount) from £2295 depending on choice of veneer.
Diva Passive Control Unit: £695.
Duo 12" Subwoofer: £2795.
I've heard them on the end of quality valve amps and they sound utterly magical, but any of those would be better than Sonus Flabers!
Marco.
Also worth checking out MAD My Claptons very coherant with great sense of scale for such small speakers and should work well with a good valve amp
Yep, John, good call! The My Claptons would also be superb, although arguably not as 'pretty'.
You need to widen the field of choice, Steve, and think more outside of the box :)
Marco.
Ohh... cheers Marco.
Those WLM Diva's look rather groovy.
I won't write off the Sonus Fabers (I heard them with Chord and Krell, and they sounded rather splendid. BUT, they now run in near to £4 grand with stands. ouch)
However...the hunt begins. (To be concluded in Feb 2011)
No worries, Steve.
Remember that with Chord and Krell amps they'll sound *very* different compared to how they would with a valve amp (presuming this is the way you want to go)....
There's a reason why they would've been paired with Chord and Krell, and it's not necessarily complimentary! ;)
The Divas are very special indeed, and trust me, would blow your mind on the end of one of Anthony's amps.... :eyebrows:
I could probably also get you a good deal, as I know the main dealer.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
26-05-2010, 18:08
I sence someone might be looking forward to a windfal steve ;)
Stratmangler
26-05-2010, 18:14
Here is what I found on the planar speaker forum (the topic was 'planar speakers and tubes'):
"Magneplanar speakers present an easy load to amplifiers. The impedance curve is mostly resistive and isn't as erratic as most speakers (it's not perfect and there are speakers with better impedance curves). The speaker's low impedance is more difficult for cheapy SS amps than it is for tube amps because the output trannie for tube amps is used for impedance matching." (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tubes&n=2090)
I've also checked the impedance curve diagram for my speakers -- it looks pretty flat (there is a spike around 800-900 Hz; the rest is a flatliner).
From all this I draw a conclusion that Golden Tube SE-40 don't sound that good not because my Maggies are driving them nuts, but because they just... don't perform that well.
Am I correct?
Well a 4ohm load at 85dB/w/m is not easy for an amp to drive.
Chances are the PSU cannot deliver the current required to make the Maggies sing.
The Grand Wazoo
26-05-2010, 19:02
From all this I draw a conclusion that Golden Tube SE-40 don't sound that good not because my Maggies are driving them nuts, but because they just... don't perform that well.
I seem to remember that the Golden Tube amp got good reviews (not that I'd necessarily put too much reliance on that) but mainly because it represented a cheap way into single ended valves at a time when certain reviewers seemed to believe that such things were the only way to amplify a signal and still be an audiophile.
I should try some other valve amps if I were you, but I wouldn't bank on finding one that can do the Magnaplanars justice.
I sence someone might be looking forward to a windfal steve ;)
Aye..but sadly with kids racking up enormous debts at uni, and me with other things to clear and things to sort out, I can't spend what i could have!
Anyway..better get off this thread, hijacked enough already !
Spectral Morn
26-05-2010, 21:07
The Ref3a Dulcet's are very good with valves. I own and use a pair in my upstairs listening room (when its not a storage room for tuners :doh::() but they don't put out a lot of bass, small rooms only. For a wee bit more cash the De capos are a better bet.
In the UK Dulcet's are £1800..I think.
Before the attack of the tuners......
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/SecondListeningRoom001.jpg
http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/SecondListeningRoom003.jpg
Regards D S D L
Useful feedback, Neil. I wouldn't expect much bass from a speaker that size... As you say they're good with valves, as are all the speakers I listed, particularly the Divas - and they have bigger drivers, too!
Thing is, Steve won't be used to big bass with his current speakers, so all of the ones I listed will be the same or better in that respect, and eons better in other areas...
Once he's got a definite budget in mind, we'll all be in a better position to advise him further :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
26-05-2010, 21:18
Useful feedback, Neil. I wouldn't expect much bass from a speaker that size... As you say they're good with valves, as are all the speakers I listed, particularly the Divas - and they have bigger drivers, too!
Thing is, Steve won't be used to big bass with his current speakers, so all of the ones I listed will be the same or better in that respect, and eons better in other areas...
Once he's got a definite budget in mind, we'll all be in a better position to advise him further :)
Marco.
I got very good results with a 5 Watt Ecofan Sound single ended triode amplifier with the Dulcet's too. However they respond to more power valve amplifiers as well.
Regards D S D L
Useful feedback, Neil. I wouldn't expect much bass from a speaker that size... As you say they're good with valves, as are all the speakers I listed, particularly the Divas - and they have bigger drivers, too!
Thing is, Steve won't be used to big bass with his current speakers, so all of the ones I listed will be the same or better in that respect, and eons better in other areas...
Once he's got a definite budget in mind, we'll all be in a better position to advise him further :)
Marco.
Actually, that is interesting. I don't have a definite budget. However.. I do recognise that I need to spend a fair bit to achieve what I'm looking for.
(Although if I had any sense, I'd learn from Duncan - he has achieved SO much on such a small amount) ..
the fun bit will be the journey in many ways.
I'll let you know !
OOOOOOHHHH, Neil's got a "Head..." Wonderful little SUT as I remember and started off affordable - and then Tim got greedy :(
Spectral Morn
27-05-2010, 19:24
OOOOOOHHHH, Neil's got a "Head..." Wonderful little SUT as I remember and started off affordable - and then Tim got greedy :(
Yes I got a head and a HEAD.
Super step up transformer and one item I won't ever part with, though I haven't used it in quite a few years. It used to be part of my analogue chain. Oracle Delphi mk4, ET arm, VDH MC 10 cart and Head into an AI 500 integrated amplifier and Proac Super Tablet's. All cabling was Audio Note ANV silver cables except the speaker cable which was XLO type 6. Fantastic in my tiny home bedroom system.
Those were the days 20 years ago :eek::):):):)
Regards D S D L
Amazing how quick the time goes, aint it? :(
Spectral Morn
28-05-2010, 20:40
Amazing how quick the time goes, aint it? :(
Yes :(
Regards D S D L
Time does fly by, but for a change I want it to !!
Had an interesting exchange of emails with Hannes Frick, who works for WLM. Those Diva Monitors really interest me, and it seems that they can do a grill for them.
Couldn't imagine sitting a few feet away looking straight at two 10" drivers..:stalks:
He sent me a picture of a different model , the Viola, which has a similar look complete with grill .... but the Diva does not have that tweeter on board
All I need on the shopping list now is an amp ;)
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j280/Stevewaller/4641360913_1a29f9e24a.jpg
Ian Walker
29-05-2010, 15:11
Time does fly by, but for a change I want it to !!
Had an interesting exchange of emails with Hannes Frick, who works for WLM. Those Diva Monitors really interest me, and it seems that they can do a grill for them.
Couldn't imagine sitting a few feet away looking straight at two 10" drivers..:stalks:
He sent me a picture of a different model , the Viola, which has a similar look complete with grill .... but the Diva does not have that tweeter on board
All I need on the shopping list now is an amp ;)
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j280/Stevewaller/4641360913_1a29f9e24a.jpg
What you need Steve is a David Berning ZH270...i'm sure there's one on here for sale somewhere;)
Ian.
Rare as hen's teeth those things matey.
Can't do bugger all till next January anyway...so its all window shopping anyway.:doh::doh:
Surprised your amp hasn't sold actually.
Behave, Meesta Walker :lolsign:
Steve,
Is the Viola a more expensive model? You might find the tweeter beneficial.... Either the Divas or Violas would be *ideal* for you though - of that I have no doubt :)
Marco.
Yeah.. 3,230 Euros versus 8,800 Euros on last years price list.:eek::eek::eek:
Plus the cost of stands
Wow.... I suppose you could always add the supertweeter later? :)
I don't think you'd have to use their stands - a pair of Partingtons (or similar) would do just as good a job, and likely much cheaper.
Marco.
Be interesting to hear the difference between the two. It looks to me like the Viola has the ability to become active...which I love, but that obviously comes at a price. Not sure if they share drivers though...
as I said, the fun is often in the journey and search.
Ali Tait
29-05-2010, 18:15
Agree with Marco.Get the speakers and add a supertweeter later.There are some very good ones around at sane prices.
Rare Bird
29-05-2010, 19:36
Wow.... I suppose you could always add the supertweeter later? :)
I don't think you'd have to use their stands - a pair of Partingtons (or similar) would do just as good a job, and likely much cheaper.
Marco.
Can someone find me some open frame stands 10-12'' tall 245mm Sq top plates :(
Ali Tait
29-05-2010, 20:29
Quite easy to make if you have access to a welder Andre.
Spectral Morn
29-05-2010, 20:32
Can someone find me some open frame stands 10-12'' tall 245mm Sq top plates :(
Custom Design http://customdesign.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=25&osCsid=pglth3m1ip0q6g5mddjpq5bqb7 can make you some Andre.
Regards D S D L
Rare Bird
29-05-2010, 21:17
Quite easy to make if you have access to a welder Andre.
I wish i had
Custom Design http://customdesign.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=25&osCsid=pglth3m1ip0q6g5mddjpq5bqb7 can make you some Andre.
Regards D S D L
Great these are the type i want square open frames
http://customdesign.co.uk/catalog/popup_add_image.php?pID=244&osCsid=pglth3m1ip0q6g5mddjpq5bqb7
Now i have to sell my body to afford them..Anyone know if the welding is neat?
Spectral Morn
29-05-2010, 21:25
I wish i had
Great these are the type i want square open frames
http://customdesign.co.uk/catalog/popup_add_image.php?pID=244&osCsid=pglth3m1ip0q6g5mddjpq5bqb7
Now i have to sell my body to afford them..Anyone know if the welding is neat?
They are nice people Andre, ring and ask for Paul.
Not seen those in the flesh but I would say that what I have seen of their UK made products that they are very well made.
Regards D S D L
Rare Bird
29-05-2010, 21:30
Thank Neil..
Did they do the welding on your nice Darlek torso by any chance?
Rare Bird
29-05-2010, 21:36
Just looking at this pdf it seems i already have there turntable wall shelf
http://customdesign.co.uk/Brochure%20Oct%20%202005.PDF
Spectral Morn
29-05-2010, 22:03
Just looking at this pdf it seems i already have there turntable wall shelf
http://customdesign.co.uk/Brochure%20Oct%20%202005.PDF
The wall shelve units are very nice.
Regards D S D L
Rare Bird
29-05-2010, 22:07
The wall shelve units are very nice.
Regards D S D L
This has got me very worried now as im not happy with the weldin on it :scratch:
Custom Design http://customdesign.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=25&osCsid=pglth3m1ip0q6g5mddjpq5bqb7 can make you some Andre.
Regards D S D L
Where are the bloody prices? I would be interested in a custom open-frame structure for my EMT deck.
Regards
Fatcat40s
22-08-2010, 11:38
Hi All,
Ive been following this forum for a while and after
listening to a valve/tube amps at last years Manchester
Sound and Vision show I thought that was the way I want to go.
My system is very modest Im using a Denon 3930 as CD transport through a MF Xdacv3 and XPsu,
my speakers are Acoustic Energy Linear 3 floor standers.
At the moment my amp is a Harmon Kardon HK970 but this week my local dealer has loaned me a Puresound A30 and these are my impressions:
For the first 30mins or so it sounded terible all muddled then as time went one I started to hear more depth in the music (I was listening to various acoustic tracks) in fact I liked it so much when my wife got home
I dragged her upstairs (before we have a carry on moment here my music/cinema room is upstairs) to listen.
Later though I played some Depeche Mode and Ultravox (Im showing my age here) and it was a disapointment with my SS Amp I can hear the emotion in Dave Gahans voice but this seemed to be missing with the Puresound.
Then I switched to vinyl, now again my system is v modest consisting of a Thorens TD280 Mk 4 fitted with a Ortofon 2M Blue
running through a MF LPS again with my SS amp I feel part of the music but with the Puresound the music has lost its punch.
Am I missing something here?? is this amp more suited to acoustic music on CD??
Oh I knew there was something else, the amp seems to have introduced some wispiness on vocals, again am I missing something??
Regards
John
chris@panteg
22-08-2010, 11:53
Hi Jon
Welcome to the forum , why not introduce yourself in the welcome section.
I think you will find its all about matching the amp to a speaker here ' as i have the same speakers as you i can say they are more suited to solid state , if you could hear the A30 with some Living Voice Auditoriums or Audionote J's or E's its a different ball game .
I was using some old Snell type J's untill recently but they just don't gell with anything other than a good valve amp , so i decided to sell them.
In the future i quite fancy a valve system again , and would aim for a Puresound/Living Voice set up ' i would urge you to hear this combination , it could be what your after .
Steve Toy
22-08-2010, 13:40
Jonn when AnthonyTD received an A30 from me to work on he spotted a flaw in the circuit. He also listened to it and declared it to have no balls.
Suffice to say he more than fixed the problem. I've since upgraded to one of his legendary Copper Class A amps but that very amp is for sale. Its current owner is Hamish. You might want to pm him if you are interested in an A30 with balls. Not only that, it'll give you goosebumps with the right music...
Perhaps Guy could chat with Anthony about this privately????
Valves aren't the be all and end all, especially if the speakers are nominally lower impedance and underdamped in the first place to appear to give more "bass." On my Spendors and the Harbeths that hifi dave has on dem, my Quad II's seem to remove deep bass, the hybrid croft Series 7 opening things up to a very much better degree. Conversely, a decent solid state amp with high damping factor playing into an already over-damped speaker such as vintage pre HPD Tannoys or Yamaha NS1000's from memory, may strip the sonics too bare and take all the colour out. One area where solid core speaker cables adding some resistance may just help...
It's difficult to give absolutes, but I'm coming round to thinking that amps should be chosen for the vintage of speakers used as much as anything else, as long as the basic amp performance is clean, stable and low in sonically detracting distortions.
Steve Toy
22-08-2010, 14:12
Guy sent Anthony the schematic.
Fatcat40s
23-08-2010, 19:28
Hi All,
Firstly thanks for the replies:)
Im sat here tonight trying to enjoy this amp but again Im finding that with acoustic music it sounds superb but as soon as I ask it to play something fuller eg Depeche Mode World in Your Eyes live versions it seems to muddy the sound, I dont know the technical Hi Fi term but Im struggling to differentiate the different layers of the track, its as though Ive gone back to listening to CD on a cheap player and removed my Xdac.
I must admit due to the downturn Im not ready to buy just yet but I have a very good shop who let me trial things knowing that when I am ready I will buy from them.
They have suggested a Nain Nait XS so the Puresound is going back on Sat and I will be picking up the Naim to try.
At 44 I feel Im still a Hi Fi amateur, after subscribing to Hi Fi Choice it took me a good few months to understand what they were on about:scratch:
Another question, not wanting to upset anyone and just to satisfy my curiosity but what are the differences between the Puresound A30 and the Bewitch 6550??
Anyway time to put on side b....:)
PS heres a pic of my room, just finished it in Feb this year....
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/concoursfinish/XJ40/SG102495.jpg
The home cine kit:JVC HD1 PJ, Yamaha RXV3900 Amp, Kef Q5 Fronts, Q6c Centre, Kef Q8s Surrounds, Paradigm PS1000 Sub.
Music: Denon 3930 DVD as CD transports MF Xdac and Xpsu, Thorens TD280 TT with AE Linear 3's and AE100's
John
Fatcat40s
23-08-2010, 19:28
Hi All,
Firstly thanks for the replies:)
Im sat here tonight trying to enjoy this amp but again Im finding that with acoustic music it sounds superb but as soon as I ask it to play something fuller eg Depeche Mode World in Your Eyes live versions it seems to muddy the sound, I dont know the technical Hi Fi term but Im struggling to differentiate the different layers of the track, its as though Ive gone back to listening to CD on a cheap player and removed my Xdac.
I must admit due to the downturn Im not ready to buy just yet but I have a very good shop who let me trial things knowing that when I am ready I will buy from them.
They have suggested a Nain Nait XS so the Puresound is going back on Sat and I will be picking up the Naim to try.
At 44 I feel Im still a Hi Fi amateur, after subscribing to Hi Fi Choice it took me a good few months to understand what they were on about:scratch:
Another question, not wanting to upset anyone and just to satisfy my curiosity but what are the differences between the Puresound A30 and the Bewitch 6550??
Anyway time to put on side b....:)
PS heres a pic of my room, just finished it in Feb this year....
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/concoursfinish/XJ40/SG102495.jpg
The home cine kit:JVC HD1 PJ, Yamaha RXV3900 Amp, Kef Q5 Fronts, Q6c Centre, Kef Q8s Surrounds, Paradigm PS1000 Sub.
Music: Denon 3930 DVD as CD transports MF Xdac and Xpsu, Thorens TD280 TT with AE Linear 3's and AE100's
John
Hi John,
Welcome to AOS! :)
Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your basic geographical location, system details and music tastes, as this is a requirement for all new members joining AOS.
Cheers :cool:
Marco.
Hi All,
Firstly thanks for the replies:)
Im sat here tonight trying to enjoy this amp but again Im finding that with acoustic music it sounds superb but as soon as I ask it to play something fuller eg Depeche Mode World in Your Eyes live versions it seems to muddy the sound, I dont know the technical Hi Fi term but Im struggling to differentiate the different layers of the track, its as though Ive gone back to listening to CD on a cheap player and removed my Xdac.
I must admit due to the downturn Im not ready to buy just yet but I have a very good shop who let me trial things knowing that when I am ready I will buy from them.
They have suggested a Nain Nait XS so the Puresound is going back on Sat and I will be picking up the Naim to try.
At 44 I feel Im still a Hi Fi amateur, after subscribing to Hi Fi Choice it took me a good few months to understand what they were on about:scratch:
Another question, not wanting to upset anyone and just to satisfy my curiosity but what are the differences between the Puresound A30 and the Bewitch 6550??
John
Crikey, talk about going from one end of the spectrum to the other in one bound :sofa:
The Puresound A30 wasn't designed to be an all out rocker of an amp and what it does, it does very well indeed I think, provided it is matched with the right speakers. The Naim Nait XS certainly has plenty of perceived ballsiness, but I don't think it is tonally accurate with it's almost monotonal bass, or able to be as sweet as the Puresound with intimate music. That's my take on it of course.
The difference between a Puresound A30 and a Bewitch 6550 is in a nutshell a lot. Yes the chassis look identical because they are made in the same factory, but there the differences end because of the specifications that Puresound have set for their product, including high spec transformers and uprated topologies and components. The Bewitch amps are designed for a 220v main input which may or may not tolerate UK 240v mains. It's a long way back to the factory to get the Bewitch repaired if it develops a fault.
chris@panteg
23-08-2010, 21:52
Hi John
i would be most interested to read what think of the XS , it should be a perfect match for your AE's ' though Naim's can be fussy about speaker cables , is the dealer going to loan you some nac5 cable? .
Hi All,
Firstly thanks for the replies:)
Im sat here tonight trying to enjoy this amp but again Im finding that with acoustic music it sounds superb but as soon as I ask it to play something fuller eg Depeche Mode World in Your Eyes live versions it seems to muddy the sound, I dont know the technical Hi Fi term but Im struggling to differentiate the different layers of the track, its as though Ive gone back to listening to CD on a cheap player and removed my Xdac.
I must admit due to the downturn Im not ready to buy just yet but I have a very good shop who let me trial things knowing that when I am ready I will buy from them.
They have suggested a Nain Nait XS so the Puresound is going back on Sat and I will be picking up the Naim to try.
At 44 I feel Im still a Hi Fi amateur, after subscribing to Hi Fi Choice it took me a good few months to understand what they were on about:scratch:
Another question, not wanting to upset anyone and just to satisfy my curiosity but what are the differences between the Puresound A30 and the Bewitch 6550??
Anyway time to put on side b....:)
PS heres a pic of my room, just finished it in Feb this year....
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/concoursfinish/XJ40/SG102495.jpg
The home cine kit:JVC HD1 PJ, Yamaha RXV3900 Amp, Kef Q5 Fronts, Q6c Centre, Kef Q8s Surrounds, Paradigm PS1000 Sub.
Music: Denon 3930 DVD as CD transports MF Xdac and Xpsu, Thorens TD280 TT with AE Linear 3's and AE100's
John
In that long narrow untreated room,Id would not have to guess very hard why anything with bass AT ALL would get muddy.
And a 5.1 arrangement should be a concoffany!
Nothing like a broken up,defracted bass node trying to form in a largish shoebox to confuse things.
pure sound
24-08-2010, 08:33
A couple of points here if I may. I'm disappointed that your dealer has recommended the A30 to go with your KEF speakers. The dealers I work with are supposed to understand the ways to get the best from this amplifier. Coupling it (or any decent valve amp) with relatively insensitive speakers using heavier polymer cones is not really a great idea. You may well fare better with a Naim or similar amplifier.
I also would suggest that while your room may give a great home cinema experience, it may not be the best arrangement for good sound. There will inevitably be alot of potential for confusion & reflections in there to muddy the sound. You may have the same issues with the Naim (or any other) amplifier with busy congested music. The front speakers also appear to be in the corners. Are they intended for corner or even wall loaded use?
With regard to Steve's comments about the A30 above, all I would add is that I don't feel the circuit is 'flawed' and I don't think it lacks 'balls'. Anthony is of course entitled to his views & preferences but they aren't opinions I'd necessarily share. With regard to upgrades made to the amplifier, of course if a further £600-700 is thrown at it (as Steve did), improvements can be wrought from the design. I tend not to recommend that approach as there is another Pure Sound amplifier above the A30 in terms of quality at about that price point. Steve also didn't actually ask me what I would recommend in terms of upgrades to his amplifier.
Steve Toy
24-08-2010, 10:33
Sorry Guy, perhaps 'flawed' was a bit strong as I certainly liked the A30 enough to buy it in the first place. However, it had more balls and drive when it had been modified. I also prefer the KT88 valve to the 6550. Having said that, the A30 as modified by Anthony could prove rather in-yer-face to some as it isn't the retiring pipe 'n slippers type as is often expected from valves but then, neither is the standard A30.
I was really impressed with the delicacy and immediacy of the 2A3 when I heard it if you are referring to that as the next model up.
chris@panteg
24-08-2010, 10:50
Having heard the A30 and the 2A3 , i would go for the 2A3 and match it to LV Avatar's OBX version , but its a lot of dosh , and the LV's are about to go up again , even the Auditorium is knocking on 3k ! way out of reach:(
Fatcat40s
24-08-2010, 11:44
Hi All,
Thanks again for all the replies.
I think we have some confusion here regarding speakers, just to clarify things the Puresound is wired up to a pair of AE Linear 3's (not in the pic) and the Kefs are for my 7.1 Home Cinema setup.
I admit the room is a tad compromised hence v thick carpet and 2 layers of heavy curtains but this is what we refer to the Music Room so thats all Ive got, dont want to risk 21 yrs of marriage here.
Last night I was listening again to the A30 and IMO it took about 2 hrs running before I began to enjoy myself.
Is this the case with valve amps that they need a long warm up time to be at their best??
I will keep at it and let you know.
John
pure sound
24-08-2010, 12:02
40 minutes maybe, 2 hours seems a bit much!
Having said that, when doing a 3 day HiFi show, if we set up on thursday evening and switch everything on then, by sunday afternoon it's usually really flying.
I don't generally advocate leaving valve amplifiers on all of the time, its a waste of power, but certainly a system in a show environment can really loosen up & improve over a longer period. Don't ask me why though!
With regard to Anthony's modifications, it'd be interesting to know what he did. I haven't heard the modified A30 (except perhaps at Scalford?) but someone I know who has heard it did say it was definitely more 'in your face' than the standard item. Certainly Anthony's copper amps have a little more of that characteristic than I'd like. However, some people prefer that kind of presentation. I don't. It wouldn't suit my choice of loudspeakers.
Steve Toy
24-08-2010, 12:08
I find 20 minutes is plenty for my 30W Copper amp.
Fatcat40s
24-08-2010, 12:09
In that long narrow untreated room,Id would not have to guess very hard why anything with bass AT ALL would get muddy.
And a 5.1 arrangement should be a concoffany!
Nothing like a broken up,defracted bass node trying to form in a largish shoebox to confuse things.
Thank you Professor Hawkins:ner:
40 minutes maybe, 2 hours seems a bit much!
Having said that, when doing a 3 day HiFi show, if we set up on thursday evening and switch everything on then, by sunday afternoon it's usually really flying.
I don't generally advocate leaving valve amplifiers on all of the time, its a waste of power, but certainly a system in a show environment can really loosen up & improve over a longer period. Don't ask me why though!...
i reckon it's because of the components, both inside and the gear themselves, must be warmed-up properly, and, due to dis- and re-connection, the contacts should settle in regarding sonics - the same, but requiring considerably less, time when actually burning-in a new equipment... :interesting:
Fatcat40s
24-08-2010, 20:52
Hi All,
Just thought Id share my latest thoughts with you all, well all of you apart from one and you know who you are;)
Had a chat with Guy today, nice chap, v helpful, when I came home switched the A30 it to triode mode and played some more albums over a few hours.
Every now and again I'm still getting what I would describe as a lisp/ wisp effect on vocals.
Come the end of the day I feel its not any fault with the A30, when its good it blows me away, I think its just the components not gelling, although the amp at the moment is v near the rhs speaker, I hear the term microphonic mentioned could it be the amp is being effected by the sound/ vibration from the speakers??
I will move things around and have another go tomorow..watch this space..
John
hifi_dave
24-08-2010, 21:12
I guess the lisp/wisp is sibilance, which is a natural occurrence but aggravated by certain recordings, equipment and combinations of. I doubt very much that the A30 is responsible.
anthonyTD
24-08-2010, 21:35
hi all,
first of all it is not and never has been my intention to rubbish or put down another manufacturers products thats just not me, [guy has met me on sevral occasions and can hopefuly vouch for that] although i have plenty of reasons to if i was of a diffrent character. now as for the puresound A30, well,,, its basicaly a very good amp, although as guy has already stated as much it was built to a cost. it can however be modified quite affectively by just addressing certain parts of the design that i feel could be got to work more efficiently, there are things that i would have done diffrently but hey,,, thats just me, some people realy rate my design philosophy, some not so and i am not so far up my own backside to see that and neither is guy!
one thing i must agree with what guy has specificaly mentioned here and that is speaker matching, when it comes to valve amps speaker matching is of the utmost importance, get it wrong and you can turn the virtues of a good amp to crap!
i hope this clears a few things up.
regards,anthony,TD...
pure sound
25-08-2010, 08:24
Quite right Anthony. It'd be a dull old world if everyone thought in exactly the same way.
Last night I was listening again to the A30 and IMO it took about 2 hrs running before I began to enjoy myself.
Is this the case with valve amps that they need a long warm up time to be at their best??
Mine sounds great from switch-on.
chris@panteg
25-08-2010, 10:05
Hi Joe
What speakers do you use with it ? , can't remember if you stated before ' sorry .
I can't remember if I've mentioned them before either, but they're Audiovector Mi3 Signatures.
chris@panteg
25-08-2010, 10:14
Hi All,
Just thought Id share my latest thoughts with you all, well all of you apart from one and you know who you are;)
Had a chat with Guy today, nice chap, v helpful, when I came home switched the A30 it to triode mode and played some more albums over a few hours.
Every now and again I'm still getting what I would describe as a lisp/ wisp effect on vocals.
Come the end of the day I feel its not any fault with the A30, when its good it blows me away, I think its just the components not gelling, although the amp at the moment is v near the rhs speaker, I hear the term microphonic mentioned could it be the amp is being effected by the sound/ vibration from the speakers??
I will move things around and have another go tomorow..watch this space..
John
John have you got an isolation board or something , anything really as yes Valve amps are very sensitive to vibration , try to keep it away from other kit ' if possible .
chris@panteg
25-08-2010, 10:18
I can't remember if I've mentioned them before either, but they're Audiovector Mi3 Signatures.
Impressive looking speaker , the sandwiched base is unusual and 91 db,
The AE linear 3 has a 91db sensitivity , but from the tests made from a review i read it does draw a lot of current , so still needs a beefy amp to drive them.
Fatcat40s
28-08-2010, 17:49
Hi All,
Well I tried it, but Im afraid the A30 didnt suit me.
Dont get me wrong with the right music and with my speakers it was superb, but the Puresound and AE combo didnt gel and when I went back to my old Harman Kardon I was pleased to find that the A30 was miles better but for some reason it was vocals that seemed to be lacking emotion with the HK I could feel the "texture" of Dave Gahans vocals.
Im now listening to the Naim Nait XS and so far this seems to suit my speakers alot better, must admit though I miss the glow of the valves...
Im sure that with different speakers and a different room layout it would be another story and Id be sat here with the A30..
Id like to thank Guy for taking the time to have a chat as well..
I havnt written out a valve amp..maybe the A10 could be different, will there be one at Sound and Vision Manchester??? hope so...
John
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