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Gdg
22-05-2010, 19:59
Well, I'm not into vintage, but I got this DENON HA 500 from Marco, some time ago, to match my DL 103 SA.
Even though the unit was in perfect working order, yesterday I opened it up to remove some dust and replace the mains, and meanwhile I got some picture I hope you enjoy looking at.

I guess, from the number on the main board, it was produced in 1979.

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_01.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_02.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_03.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_04.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_05.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_06.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_07.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_08.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_09.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_10.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_11.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_12.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_13.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_14.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_15.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_16.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_17.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_18.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_19.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_20.JPG

http://www.boxedspace.com/public3/AOS_Forum_DENONHA500_21.JPG

The Vinyl Adventure
22-05-2010, 20:03
I suspect this is the one I was to borrow before someone made marco an offer he couldn't refuse .... :)

Marco
22-05-2010, 20:05
Haha... So when are you putting it all back together again? :lol:

It's rather 'substantial' though, isn't it? ;)

Marco.

Marco
22-05-2010, 20:09
I suspect this is the one I was to borrow before someone made marco an offer he couldn't refuse .... :)

Yesh..... Can you see what you're missing? :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

DSJR
22-05-2010, 20:14
All those bits (as much as in a small power amp) just to get an MC up to MM levels, and then into an MM stage....

Why the dismantling? Are you intending to recap it or summat? if you're fettling, PLEASE keep us posted... Ta!

Marco
22-05-2010, 20:15
All those bits (as much as in a small power amp) just to get an MC up to MM levels, and then into an MM stage....


Quality 1970s Japanese engineering, Dave...

Look at the size of the tranny, for starters (in a head amp)! Any idea how much one cost originally in 1979? ;)

Marco.

Marco
22-05-2010, 20:19
I'm eyeing up this to see if it's possibly better than the A23:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350302128559

:)

Marco.

Gdg
22-05-2010, 20:25
... and it is very heavy, too. More than 2 kilos (my balance scales only up to that value).
Dave, you damn malicious: since yesterday evening my HA 500 was up and running :ner:

DSJR
22-05-2010, 20:26
Inflation was so rapid back then, it's difficult to ascertain the price. I don't have details on the HA500, but the Denon transformers were around a ton, whereas the Lentek head amp was £53 and the AT630 I use was around £45 I think.

Gdg
22-05-2010, 20:28
I'm eyeing up this to see if it's possibly better than the A23:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350302128559

:)

Marco.

What you mean? maybe, in a few days are you going to sell the A23? you crazy man :mental:

DSJR
22-05-2010, 20:29
... and it is very heavy, too. More than 2 kilos (my balance scales only up to that value).
Dave, you damn malicious: since yesterday evening my HA 500 was up and running :ner:

Glad it's doing the business for you :) My AT630 will have to do for now..

Marco
22-05-2010, 20:34
What you mean? maybe, in a few days are you going to sell the A23? you crazy man :mental:

Nooooooooo.... It'll be as well as, not instead of ;)

Dave,

Try £550 (!!) - I've got an article on it somewhere, where the HA-500 is featured in a shootout with other head amps/SUTs :)

It was built as a 'no compromise' design in the true Japanese high-end tradition.... I wonder how much £550 would equate to today - and what else it would've bought in 1979?

Regarding the Lentek, any idea where I could obtain one? They never seem to turn up on Ebay, and I have rather fond memories of that little device!

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
22-05-2010, 21:03
£2200 aparently

Marco
22-05-2010, 21:15
Feck! :eek:

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 07:07
There was an HA1000 aswell

Marco
23-05-2010, 09:06
Yup - that was the one with the separate PSU:


http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3448/denonha1000.jpg (http://img404.imageshack.us/i/denonha1000.jpg/)


http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1984/denonha10002.jpg (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/denonha10002.jpg/)


There's one for sale in Japan now for 3,500 Hong Kong Dollars :eek:

I bet it's an awesome piece of kit, though!

I just LURVE all those types of high-end 'accessories', all produced in the heyday of vinyl. Thing is, even if I'd been old enough to have used them when they first came out, I'd never have known they even existed, as sadly they weren't exported to the UK. We never got any of the unusual or exciting stuff!

We only know about things like that now because of the Internet - and along with bespoke detachable headshells and leads it's what makes the DL-103 sing ....... Denon really went to town in those days producing ancillaries which optimised the performance that cartridge, and the fact is, if they're not used, you won't hear the 103 at anything like its full potential.

The saving grace is we've now got the A23 - thank goodness! :)

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 09:07
I prefer the looks of the 500 tho Marco

Marco
23-05-2010, 09:18
Yes, I agree, but looks mean f*ck all if the HA-1000 sounded better, which I'm sure it would! :)

Marco.

P.S If you could keep a look out for a Lentek head amp for me on Ebay, that would be appreciated ;)

Themis
23-05-2010, 09:22
Yup - that was the one with the separate PSU:


http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3448/denonha1000.jpg (http://img404.imageshack.us/i/denonha1000.jpg/)


http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1984/denonha10002.jpg (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/denonha10002.jpg/)


There's one for sale in Japan now for 3,500 Hong Kong Dollars :eek:

I bet it's an awesome piece of kit, though!

I guess there can't be a "reasonable" price for exceptional equipment. The number of pieces produced must influence, too. :)

Marco
23-05-2010, 09:29
Absolutely right, Dimitri - the HA-1000 would've only have been produced in small quantities for dedicated enthusiasts.

Thing is, isn't it amazing how much detail (work and expense) Denon went into to optimise the performance of a (then) £80, supposedly 'budget' cartridge? :eek:

Although, people who use them with the right equipment know that it doesn't sound like one...... ;)

I reckon that Giovanni could upgrade a few caps (the originals must be rather 'tired' by now) and resistors, not to mention the power lead, and turn his HA-500 into something really special!

It was something I was going to do, but in the end favoured the slightly different presentation of a (bespoke) SUT. SUTs and active head amps do sound rather different. It's a matter of personal preference.

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 09:39
P.S If you could keep a look out for a Lentek head amp for me on Ebay, that would be appreciated ;)

Will do they cum up a lot, the A&R Cambridge 'HA10' unit is worth a go aswell

Themis
23-05-2010, 09:41
It was something I was going to do, but in the end favoured the slightly different presentation of a (bespoke) SUT. SUTs and active head amps do sound rather different. It's a matter of personal preference.

Marco.
Don't tempt me, Marco !!! :doh:

Since, I started hifi I promised myself never get into the MC "stuff". Not because of any questioning of quality, no. Simply because I had few ££ to spend on hifi and each £ spent had to be overly-optimized.

But now, it's not the case anymore, so... :scratch:

Anyway, I guess I'll have to listen to a "proper" MC setup to decide. But don't tempt me ! :cool:

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 09:43
Don't tempt me, Marco !!! :doh:

Since, I started hifi I promised myself never get into the MC "stuff". Not because of any questioning of quality, no. Simply because I had few ££ to spend on hifi and each £ spent had to be overly-optimized.

But now, it's not the case anymore, so... :scratch:

Anyway, I guess I'll have to listen to a "proper" MC setup to decide. But don't tempt me ! :cool:

Dimitri
I personally don't like MC's don't how to describe the sound 'Too Romantic' maybe

Marco
23-05-2010, 09:43
Will do they cum up a lot, the A&R Cambridge 'HA10' unit is worth a go aswell

Only interested in the Lentek, dude... So when you see one, let me know A.S.A.P, will ya? :)

Marco.

Marco
23-05-2010, 09:45
Hi Dimitri,


Don't tempt me, Marco !!! :doh:

Since, I started hifi I promised myself never get into the MC "stuff". Not because of any questioning of quality, no. Simply because I had few ££ to spend on hifi and each £ spent had to be overly-optimized.

But now, it's not the case anymore, so... :scratch:

Anyway, I guess I'll have to listen to a "proper" MC setup to decide. But don't tempt me ! :cool:

If you ever fancy a holiday in North Wales.................... ;)

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 09:46
Your not luring Dimitri into your cave by any chance :lol:

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 09:47
Only interested in the Lentek, dude... So when you see one, let me know A.S.A.P, will ya? :)

Marco.

Will do you actually missed on just over a week ago £46.00

Themis
23-05-2010, 09:49
If you ever fancy a holiday in North Wales.................... ;)

It will be a great pleasure, for sure. ;)

Marco
23-05-2010, 09:50
Bollocks.... If I remember rightly, it came in a kind of black powder-coated metal box with a little silver toggle switch on the front, and it was powered by a 9V battery :)

I remember the combo I had in the early 80s of the Ariston RD11s/Linn Basik LVV (with heavy AT magnesium headshell)/DL-103 into the MM phono stage of the Sondex S-230, with the Lentek head amp, was sublime!

Marco.

Marco
23-05-2010, 09:51
It will be a great pleasure, for sure. ;)

Well we must arrange something sometime :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 10:04
Bollocks.... If I remember rightly, it came in a kind of black powder-coated metal box with a little silver toggle switch on the front, and it was powered by a 9V battery :)

I remember the combo I had in the early 80s of the Ariston RD11s/Linn Basik LVV (with heavy AT magnesium headshell)/DL-103 into the MM phono stage of the Sondex S-230, with the Lentek head amp, was sublime!

Marco.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/ad-1.jpg

Marco
23-05-2010, 10:09
That's the very boy! :cool:

Nice to read the write-up... I couldn't agree more with the comments.

Now, Master of Ebay, all you need to do is find me one!

(There'll be a special wee prize for you when you do) ;)

Marco.

DSJR
23-05-2010, 10:14
FFS people!!!!! :(

You guys are wetting yourselves on things that the bandwidth limited Naim 12S preamp (with mc boards inside) driven by a SNAPS absolutely shit over at the time, despite the fancy blingy boxes and slick button-work. KJ sold them all and I had the chance to dabble with many of these things at the time.

The Lentek is a hissy, grainy little beastie which eats batteries (300 hours my a*se!). Fine with the early Entre syrup pudding which it was designed for, but not a patch on a decent SUT in my opinion. Beware of the switch-on THUMP too.

I don't think many of you are aware of just how dramatically better the early Naim stuff was, despite the garage (ok, living room) build in the early days. Many a beautifully over-crafted Japanese concoction was truly audibly slaughtered by a NAC22/NAP120 in bolt-up livery.

I'm too old. I've seen this stuff first time round and to see it go for the prices it does over 30 years later is just lunacy IMO when better can be had for peanuts today..

Here endeth the lesson while I crawl back under my stone....

Marco
23-05-2010, 10:17
:lol:

When I obtain a Lentek, Dave, I'll tell you whether you're right or not, as I shall compare it to the A23....

I'm just curious (based on what I remember from years ago), and if all it costs me is £50 (sweety money ;)), it'll be worth a bit of fun!

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 10:19
FFS people!!!!! :(

You guys are wetting yourselves on things that the bandwidth limited Naim 12S preamp (with mc boards inside) driven by a SNAPS absolutely shit over at the time, despite the fancy blingy boxes and slick button-work. KJ sold them all and I had the chance to dabble with many of these things at the time.

The Lentek is a hissy, grainy little beastie which eats batteries (300 hours my a*se!). Fine with the early Entre syrup pudding which it was designed for, but not a patch on a decent SUT in my opinion. Beware of the switch-on THUMP too.




:lolsign:

DSJR
23-05-2010, 10:27
£80 more like, judging by a recent sale as I recall..

These things are now collectors items and so much far eastern gear of this period is a mugs eyeful - I love looking at the stuff and twiddling all the knobs :eyebrows: I'm sure the Lentek will be a fine and useful toy (as the X10-D I bought from Clive is proving to be), but today, with elderly caps etc, much of this stuff is very poor, especially when Glenn is making such wonderful gear of HUGE superiority today for not much money, relatively speaking...

You guys must forgive me. The likes of hifi dave and I have been around a VERY long time (especially hifi dave...:D).. It's all old hat to us you see....

If you want a cheapish MC headamp, seriously, try to find a Naim 12s or 22 (or one of the myriad 42's about). get a cheap 24V regulated supply from Maplins and wire a 4 pin DIN plug correctly. get another interconnect made - 5 pin to phono's on pins 1 and 4 and use from the tape output socket (or adapt the line out one if you want to vary the gain). For £100 or less, you'll have a great sounding MC phono stage with shedloads of tweakability/bodgability on tap....

Marco
23-05-2010, 10:32
Lol - Dave, with respect, you can waffle away until the cow's come home - it doesn't matter a jot... As always, the proof of the pudding will be in the listening, and if the Lentek sounds good in my system, then you can take it for granted that it *IS* good!

The benchmark will be the A23, and if it gets near that through the Croft, then all your blustering will be nothing more than the blinkered ramblings of an aspergic old fool! :lol: :eyebrows: :ner:

;)

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 10:38
Lol - Dave, with respect, you can waffle away until the cow's come home - it doesn't matter a jot...


:D

DSJR
23-05-2010, 10:42
It will be as described, I promise you.....

Blinkered, Aspergic old fool eh? The cheek of it..... :scratch:

Marco
23-05-2010, 10:42
:lolsign:

I do love having these little 'contretemps' with 'our Dave'... It usually results in me being proved right! :eyebrows:

M3D {Cough}, Stanton {cough, cough!} ;)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
23-05-2010, 11:01
marco, as he finally takes it one step to far

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jMCplra4Obw/SdI-9HkdumI/AAAAAAAAAo0/7LtEUfVSj9U/s400/teachers-head-explodes.jpg

;)

hifi_dave
23-05-2010, 11:15
I have to agree with the 'aspergic and 'old' but a 'fool' DSJR ain't...:eyebrows:

The Lentek, even in it's day, wasn't up to much. It was bland to the point of boring and was well outclassed by the FR transformers and others of that time. I might even have one tucked away in one of the many boxes I haven't found time to open since my move here.

Problem back then was that certain reviewers who had the clout just weren't into transformers or even MC's. I well remember being given a severe telling off by the Editor of Hi-Fi for Pleasure for my penchant for the FR1 Mk3 and the FR2, using transformers of course. I was also warned that valve amps weren't up to it and it was my taste for 'second harmonic distortion' that was clouding my mind.

I sat in on a couple of 'listening sessions' for the mags at that time and unbiased isn't a word I would use to describe the results....:scratch:

Marco
23-05-2010, 11:28
I have to agree with the 'aspergic and 'old' but a 'fool' DSJR ain't...:eyebrows:

The Lentek, even in it's day, wasn't up to much. It was bland to the point of boring...


I don't doubt that's what you heard, but that's fundamentally *NOT* how I remember it when I used it for years in the 80s - quite the opposite, in fact...

Like I said, the proof of the pudding will be in the listening. In the time I've been posting here, I've obtained one!

So when it arrives, I'll review it, 'warts and all'.... Watch this space! ;)

If I'm wrong, I'll hold my hands up and admit my view of it was nothing but rose-tinted nostalgic memories, but if it sounds great then I'll be rubbing your noses in it, big time! :ner:

Marco.

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 11:30
I have to say i loved the Lentek unit aswell..I loved the amps & the speakers i thought they were jolly good products.

hifi_dave
23-05-2010, 11:40
I don't doubt that's what you heard, but that's fundamentally *NOT* how I remember it when I used it for years in the 80s - quite the opposite, in fact...

Like I said, the proof of the pudding will be in the listening. In the time I've been posting here, I've obtained one!

So when it arrives, I'll review it, 'warts and all'.... Watch this space! ;)

If I'm wrong, I'll hold my hands up and admit my view of it was nothing but rose-tinted nostalgic memories, but if it sounds great then I'll be rubbing your noses in it, big time! :ner:

Marco.

If you listened to the thing in isolation it might have sounded OK but for me I had FR, EAR, Audio Innovations, Audio, Koetsu and other transformers to put it up against. I also had a few very good SS head-amps from small companies like UAD. Oh, another excellent one we sold bucket loads of was a Trio. I can't remember the model number but it was a lot better than the Lentek and was far cheaper.

As for 'nose rubbing' - it's all subjective and if you like the Lentek, then that's good. It's not for me but I hope you enjoy it.

Marco
23-05-2010, 18:21
Absolutely, Dave - it's all just a bit of friendly banter :cool:

The Lentek will be up against a superb benchmark - the A23 - so if it gets anywhere near that sort of performance then it will undoubtedly be a very good bit of kit and a total bargain, justifying my memories of it in the process :)

Who knows, it may just have been one of those 'synergy' things - but all I can say is that when I had the Sondex S-230 (a great little 30W British amp of the time - do you remember it?)/Lentek/DL-103, the combination was magical, so one would imagine that with the Croft's superb valve MM stage, things will be markedly better.....

But you never know with these things. Anyway, watch this space!

Marco.

hifi_dave
23-05-2010, 18:49
I've always had best results with good quality transformers. Back in the late 70's and early 80's we were spoilt with high quality/reasonably priced step-up transformers but now they are rare and expensive unless you strike it lucky on E-Bay.

The Puresound T10 is a good'un at a reasonable price but that's the only affordable one I can think of. Perhaps there is a market out there for someone with the knowledge and a coil winding machine....:scratch:

DSJR
23-05-2010, 21:24
Yeah, SOWTER...... around £130 a pair. Just add plugs and sockets and possibly a case..

Rare Bird
23-05-2010, 21:46
Mayware T24II

kcc123
24-05-2010, 23:03
I have had a Lentek for about 30 years and, to be honest, it is far inferior to my Denon AU340 transformer, Panasonic or Trio head amp. The little Lentek simply is not in the same league.

It will be interesting if my Denon 340 compares with the A23 in a bake-off.

Marco
25-05-2010, 05:13
Hi King,

Well I'll have the Lentek by the end of the week, so all will be revealed....

Like I said, perhaps it's just nostalgic rose-tinted bias from when I used it fondly in the 80s (after all, our benchmark in audio for what is considered as 'excellent' constantly improves), but I remember that it matched the DL-103 exceptionally well. Perhaps there was just very good synergy with that cartridge?

The bottom line is that if it gets anywhere near the A23 (or the HA-500 I sold to Giovanni), sonically in my system, then it'll be a total bargain - or perhaps a waste of £60.... We shall see. It's just a bit of fun, really! :)

Marco.

Marco
27-05-2010, 14:02
The Lentek arrived today in full working order (thanks to Dave from Greenhomeelectronics):


http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7747/lentekpreamp.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/lentekpreamp.jpg/)


I've just fitted a brand new Duracell 9V battery and cleaned all the connections.... Disregard the box, as the unit itself is in (near) mint condition.

Well what I can say first of all is that comments such as:


The Lentek is a hissy, grainy little beastie....


...do not apply in my system. It's pretty silent (although not as silent as the A23). There is some hiss, but it's by no means disastrous.

Grainy? Not in the slightest in my set-up - and I have a rather revealing fairly high-end system :)


The Lentek, even in it's day, wasn't up to much. It was bland to the point of boring...


That's not what I'm getting from it at the moment. Bland it ain't; slightly 'uncouth' and rough around the edges (compared with the A23), perhaps.


Fine with the early Entre syrup pudding which it was designed for, but not a patch on a decent SUT in my opinion.


It's early days, as I've still to spend the necessary time assessing and comparing it to the A23, but initial results show it to be a lively and detailed little performer, if not as expansive, weighty and finessed sounding as the A23, which you'd of course expect considering the difference in cost!

However, for a budget device, it certainly sounds very good indeed in conjunction with the Croft's valve MM stage. I'll report back later when I've had more time to listen. At the moment though I'm pretty pleased with it :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
27-05-2010, 14:21
Good lad..:)

Rare Bird
27-05-2010, 15:56
The problem with old hi-fi enthusiasts especially ones who can afford to upgrade like changing underpants is while upgrading through the years to components they deemed at the time to be better sounding, they have simply lost the plot, they think (As well as been made to think) their new fangled toys are better sounding than what they had 30 years ago.

There's no turning back for them for all sorts of reasons or even admit it .. (Not aimed at anyone in particular)

DSJR
27-05-2010, 16:09
The problem with old hi-fi enthusiasts especially ones who can afford to upgrade like changing underpants is while upgrading through the years to components they deemed at the time to be better sounding, they have simply lost the plot, they think (As well as been made to think) their new fangled toys are better sounding than what they had 30 years ago.

There's no turning back for them for all sorts of reasons or even admit it .. (Not aimed at anyone in particular)

I hope that's not me Andr'e? The newest parts of my system now are the CD player at twenty two years old and possibly the X10-D (which is out of circuit at present) at twelve years approx...


Marco, for, "Rough around the edges" read "grainy" and the fact you can hear hiss means it's noisy!! Now I have the earthing of the Quad 33 sorted I get the faintest noise with all the gains turned up on the Crowns and Croft and it's the valve noise in the Croft that's doing it - and that's way, way down on surface noise... Oh yeah, the bright balance was fine for the Entre syrup pudding, certainly the early ones before they gritted them up.....

Affordable decent transistors have moved on a HUGE way since the mid seventies and I bet a good mc active stage could be done without trouble - doesn't A.N.T. do some (they're too expensive for me, so they've sort of fallen off my radar)?

By the way, the Lentek was around £50 back in the late seventies. How much would it be now eh? Around £250 to £300 I suspect, depending on the slurp the manufacturers wanted to make, coupled with where the thing was made.

I bet a Cambridge 640P would see it off though ;)

Rare Bird
27-05-2010, 16:13
Not aimed at anyone (Says so)..Technology may have advance don't mean it sounds any good.

Technology is for one thing & it aint your ears.

DSJR
27-05-2010, 16:22
Actually, my Quad 33 couldn't sound as good as it does now because the caps weren't made of the correct value and physical size back then. Also, in power amps, the output transistors available today are far more capable in single units (simpler, far less distortion and better thermal tracking) than the banks of transistors per channel in olde worlde power houses..

Back then, star earthing had all but been consigned to history until Denis Morecroft suggested it for ss circuits. IMO, he also gave Naim a kick up the backside to improve their preamp power supplies, although they seem to have stagnated again, where Teddy P and Les W have shown how much more can be got at moderate cost (relatively speaking).

Remember, the gems shine out from any era, but the 60's and 70's had a huge amount of well made absolute shite to which time hasn't been kind.

Rare Bird
27-05-2010, 16:30
Yes theres was a load of shit back then infact as much shit as there is today.All vintage amps need a bit of circuit/part tinkering. Pick yourself a classic & fart about with parts & such youll have a gem that can floor most todays amps IMHO..

ps: Power houses don't tickle my fancy never have..

Marco
27-05-2010, 18:15
Hi Dave,


Marco, for, "Rough around the edges" read "grainy" and the fact you can hear hiss means it's noisy!!


Semantics, dear chap, nothing else. "Grainy", for me, is the sound of your average solid-state amp (perhaps your crown? Lol ;)), compared to a good valve one (like the copper amp), and the Lentek doesn't do that - rather it's simply less 'finessed' than the A23, and by that I simply mean less sonically able (as one would expect) but not grainy in the slightest.

Hiss? Only when the preamp's nearly turned up full!


Oh yeah, the bright balance was fine for the Entre syrup pudding, certainly the early ones before they gritted them up.....


You're talking in lingo I don't understand, dude, most probably coined before my time. What's an "Entre syrup pudding"? :scratch: I need to know what that is before I can attempt to understand the "gritted them up" reference.


Affordable decent transistors have moved on a HUGE way since the mid seventies and I bet a good mc active stage could be done without trouble - doesn't A.N.T. do some (they're too expensive for me, so they've sort of fallen off my radar)?


Yes there are plenty of good active MC phono stages around, the A.N.T being one of them, but in general I prefer SUTs, and the A23 is stunning. None of that detracts though from the fact that the Lentek (in my system) is a little star and punches way above its weight for a 30+ year old design.


By the way, the Lentek was around £50 back in the late seventies. How much would it be now eh? Around £250 to £300 I suspect, depending on the slurp the manufacturers wanted to make, coupled with where the thing was made.


Good point, which suggests that it was a quality item in its day, no? ;)


I bet a Cambridge 640P would see it off though

Dunno - I've not listened to a 640P in anger. I don't care much for the principles of the designer, who comes across as another one of those science/measurement obsessed clowns like Ashley James and his cronies.... :wanker:


Remember, the gems shine out from any era, but the 60's and 70's had a huge amount of well made absolute shite to which time hasn't been kind.


And the Lentek, for me, isn't one of them :)

Marco.

DSJR
27-05-2010, 18:42
The Lentek was a beer budget head amp at the time, believe it it not...

The Entre was a well known (at the time) cartridge with s sound which my then manager summarised as, "An envelope of softness." After a year or so, the balance was livened up, but went gritty with it - less "nice."

Look out for a Moth "Black-Head." I remember them being a very capable cheap SUT...

Marco
27-05-2010, 19:01
The Lentek was a beer budget head amp at the time, believe it it not...


And yet it cost around £50 in the 70s? Wasn't £50 quite a lot of money then - like you say, around £300 now? :scratch:

The A23 only costs £100 more than that today..... Aren't you contradicting yourself just a little, old chap? ;)


The Entre was a well known (at the time) cartridge with s sound which my then manager summarised as, "An envelope of softness." After a year or so, the balance was livened up, but went gritty with it - less "nice."


Ah, right - I've not heard of it.


Look out for a Moth "Black-Head." I remember them being a very capable cheap SUT...

Will do. Thing is, I'm very happy with the A23. The only reason I entertained the Lentek was to see if what I remembered of it from the 80s resembled what I would hear now, and in that respect I'm more than pleased :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
27-05-2010, 22:09
As I remember (and remember that disposable income for audio was higher then and the market much bigger), there were far better head-amps and transformers around back then. I even remember my AT630 being better for many MC's.. The price difference between different cartridges was skewed as well, Linn charging way over the odds for the Asak for example, yet a DL110 staying at £60 for years until re-discovered all over the internet and the £'s weakness pushing the UK price over £100, where the Asaka/Klyde, Karma/Troika, Arkiv/Akiva just getting more and more expensive. I can't get a handle on things now, especially as income etc hasn't kept up. Working where I did thirty years ago, we dealt with high-income clients, by and large, so a couple of hundred (then) on an Asak or £500 on a NAP250 didn't seem a difficulty. I only learned that the parts cost inside a typical Naim item was a tenth of the retail price some years later and even then, it didn't matter like it does now...

P.S. The DL103 hasn't changed in price for thirty years or so, as it was £90 or thereabouts back in 1980 IIRC. Until not long ago, the subtle and understated DL304 was well under £200..

:goodnight:

The Grand Wazoo
28-05-2010, 00:04
The Black Head was very good for the price, but rather unremarkable. It was a cut down Tim de PV design. I used one for a while & went back to it a few times while I was in the process of searching for my perfect step up. I didn't sob tears of heartbreak when I finally sold it though.

Marco
28-05-2010, 07:02
Well I was listening to the Lentek for a few hours last night, with all sorts of music, and I didn't feel particularly short-changed in terms of 'hi-fi aspects' of the sound or musical enjoyment - in fact, it really digs deep into recordings and unravels subtle nuances in the music, which really puts a smile on your face!

I'm sure that when I swap back to the A23 I'll hear what was 'missing', but the Lentek, regardless of its ultimate hi-fi shortcomings, sure makes music fun to listen to :)

As an aside, I've often noticed people going on about T de P's 'The Head' SUT, and how wonderful it was, well I had one and found it a pretty unremarkable device - not bad by any means, just a little 'bland', somewhat fluffy sounding, and ultimately rather musically un-involving.

I find the Lentek much more preferable, as it sounds the polar opposite of 'The Head', as it has drive, dynamics, and positively bristles with joie de vivre!

Maybe it's because it matches the DL-103 so well? Perhaps the results with other cartridges are less inspiring and that's why some people didn't get on with it.....? Synergy is all-important, after all.

Whatever - for me it was £60 well spent, as it gives me a viable alternative to the A23 when I fancy a different type of presentation of my favourite choons :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
28-05-2010, 10:26
Well I was listening to the Lentek for a few hours last night, with all sorts of music, and I didn't feel particularly short-changed in terms of 'hi-fi aspects' of the sound or musical enjoyment - in fact, it really digs deep into recordings and unravels subtle nuances in the music, which really puts a smile on your face!

I'm sure that when I swap back to the A23 I'll hear what was 'missing', but the Lentek, regardless of its ultimate hi-fi shortcomings, sure makes music fun to listen to :)

As an aside, I've often noticed people going on about T de P's 'The Head' SUT, and how wonderful it was, well I had one and found it a pretty unremarkable device - not bad by any means, just a little 'bland', somewhat fluffy sounding, and ultimately rather musically un-involving.

I find the Lentek much more preferable, as it sounds the polar opposite of 'The Head', as it has drive, dynamics, and positively bristles with joie de vivre!

Maybe it's because it matches the DL-103 so well? Perhaps the results with other cartridges are less inspiring and that's why some people didn't get on with it.....? Synergy is all-important, after all.

Whatever - for me it was £60 well spent, as it gives me a viable alternative to the A23 when I fancy a different type of presentation of my favourite choons :cool:

Marco.

If i ever see an old Mayware 'T24.II' i'll send it you down

Marco
29-05-2010, 13:50
Hi Andre,

Nice one, dude... That would be great :)

Marco.

DSJR
29-05-2010, 17:48
Hey Marco, I never said I didn't get on with it, it's just that so many better options became available - like Naim preamps with decent mc stages (for the time) in them and reasonably priced transformers.

Another head amp that we thought rather better than the Lentek was the Beard one. Does anyone remember these????

Marco
29-05-2010, 18:35
No worries, Dave - I know where you're coming from.

I think the main reason why I like the Lentek is because it matches the 103 so well - and let there be no mistake: it does, big time! I will certainly be recommending it to 103 users looking for a head amp on a budget.

With other cartridges, results will be less predictable. Did you ever get to hear the Lentek with a properly set-up and partnered 103, through a quality MM valve phono stage? :)

Naim MC boards? Sorry, I had them in my NAC 52/Supercap and thought they were pants (bland sounding and painfully low in gain), unless of course you were using a Linn Karma or Troika with an LP12, which of course they were specifically designed to match - hence 'K' boards, etc ;)

Synergy, as ever, rules!

Marco.

DSJR
29-05-2010, 21:03
Marco, you have a 12, 32 or 72, take all the unnecessary boards out including the filter boards and voila, the sound is improved IMO. Do some more bodging to give each stage LOCAL supply regulation (instead of having the regulators 1m away in a separate box) and the circuits seem to come alive in a good way. Obviously you can take it further still with cap changes (I still feel that the caps chosen were for low-cost reasons)...

Marco
29-05-2010, 21:54
Hi Dave,

I've done the board pulling thing, so I know the effect only too well. To my ears it was merely turd polishing, rather than anything particularly fundamental sonically being achieved.

In my view, Naim stuck with the Prefix (as you know, basically the same as the internal boards only with a shorter signal path for under an LP12) way too long as their top phono stage...

As umpteen manufacturers were designing far superior phono stages, namely Whest, Naim just seemed to sit back and make CDPs, etc, whilst ignoring their top-end analogue products. Until that is they brought out the Superline, which hats off to them, is a truly AWESOME phono stage - but it should've been released years earlier (as the plug-in boards were, in terms of functioning as a hi-end phono stage, woefully inadequate)!!

Btw, what about this:


Did you ever get to hear the Lentek with a properly set-up and partnered 103, through a quality MM valve phono stage?


:)

I'm thinking here that if you were listening to the Lentek with the phat sounding Linn MC cartridges and T/Ts (not to mention the many less than exciting phono stages) of the day - no wonder you found it rather bland.....

With the tight, grippy, and dynamic sounding Techy, and the 103, through the massively detailed, wide-open, 'organic' sound of the Croft's valve MM stage, the Lentek is an involving and musically addictive listen. It can definitely be improved though, so I sense some forthcoming internal tweaking taking place soon! ;)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
29-05-2010, 22:53
Well I was listening to the Lentek for a few hours last night, with all sorts of music, and I didn't feel particularly short-changed in terms of 'hi-fi aspects' of the sound or musical enjoyment - in fact, it really digs deep into recordings and unravels subtle nuances in the music, which really puts a smile on your face!

I'm sure that when I swap back to the A23 I'll hear what was 'missing', but the Lentek, regardless of its ultimate hi-fi shortcomings, sure makes music fun to listen to :)

As an aside, I've often noticed people going on about T de P's 'The Head' SUT, and how wonderful it was, well I had one and found it a pretty unremarkable device - not bad by any means, just a little 'bland', somewhat fluffy sounding, and ultimately rather musically un-involving.

I find the Lentek much more preferable, as it sounds the polar opposite of 'The Head', as it has drive, dynamics, and positively bristles with joie de vivre!

Maybe it's because it matches the DL-103 so well? Perhaps the results with other cartridges are less inspiring and that's why some people didn't get on with it.....? Synergy is all-important, after all.

Whatever - for me it was £60 well spent, as it gives me a viable alternative to the A23 when I fancy a different type of presentation of my favourite choons :cool:

Marco.


Not my experience of The Head at all.


Regards D S D L

Marco
29-05-2010, 23:15
No doubt, Neil - it obviously suited your system. Like I said, it's not a bad device by any means; it just didn't suit my system at the time (and as such sounded as I've outlined) - such is the way with hi-fi :)

The Lentek, in my system, didn't sound as the two Daves described either! ;)

Marco.

alfie2902
29-05-2010, 23:34
After a couple of weeks with the A23 doing it's magic with my DL-103 it's going to be one very special SUT to even match this combo!

It would be nice to have a listen to that 'Denon AU-103 MC Step Up Transformer' that's for sale on ebay just to see how it does stand up to the A23! Go on buy it Marco! ;)

DSJR
30-05-2010, 10:16
Neil, wasn't there a bigger "Head" in what became the cylindrical MF X-Series case? I think you alluded to one in your post above..

DSJR
30-05-2010, 10:24
Marco, I can't find your question mate, but it *may* interest you to know that in addition to the Entre, I used a DL103D/Mission 774 with mine at home and we did sell a good few 103C's too just before Linn took us/me over ;)

We sold dozens of Lentek head amps and their amps and speakers too, which were a bit too tight-a*sed for my tastes. At least the fastidious nature of Phil Swift has found its way into (soon to be) classic Audilabs and current Spendors..

Marco
30-05-2010, 10:34
You've kind of answered it, Dave... It was in post #70 :)

I don't doubt what you heard when you used the Lentek all those years ago, but it'll have been system-dependant just like everything else! ;)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
30-05-2010, 10:47
Neil, wasn't there a bigger "Head" in what became the cylindrical MF X-Series case? I think you alluded to one in your post above..

Which post ? Not that I know of :scratch:

This particular Head is a very early one marked High End Audio Devices on the front also TX4. On the back it says that they where based in ST Ives. I suspect HEAD is the company name reduced down to letters.

Weighs a ton, I always wondered what a crushed car would be like.


Regards D S D L

DSJR
30-05-2010, 15:49
I must be confused again, but I though the HEAD was a Tim de P concoction. I'm sure i saw one with a brushed brass style front but in the X series "cylinder." I'll have to check again with HiFi dave, in who's shop in Radlett I saw it decades ago.

hifi_dave
30-05-2010, 17:29
The Head was a Tim DeP/EAR device which looked and felt like a brick. On the rear were 3 or 4 choices for input impedance. Each one was hand wound by Tim and he made great play of that.

The 'Black Head' used much smaller, proprietry transformers in cans and was available from Hi-Fi News and Moth marketing. It was a good device but nowhere to the standard of The Head.

DSJR
30-05-2010, 18:49
I was mistaken then :eek:

For the final time Marco (I promise), the Lentek has a fixed input impedance which, as you say, will certainly be cartridge dependent, no issues there :) But as you've found, there are better things available to handle the tiny outputs of most MC cartridges.

I think I may try some Sowter transformers next. They're available in various gains and impedances and also a deluxe OCC wire option for not much more. HiFi dave has offered to reprise his casework skills and get them fitted and socketed into a little ally case like he did before..

Marco
30-05-2010, 22:04
Hi Dave,


For the final time Marco (I promise), the Lentek has a fixed input impedance which, as you say, will certainly be cartridge dependent, no issues there...


Nope. Perhaps in future though remember to consider the bigger picture (as you have done now) before rubbishing a product ;)


But as you've found, there are better things available to handle the tiny outputs of most MC cartridges.


Indeed there are - at a price. But I can't think of a better brand new head amp or SUT to use with a DL-103 for less than the cost of the A23....

Put it this way, the Lentek in conjunction with the AT PEQ3 (interesting review to read via the link below):

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPEQ3&Category_Code=C2D

...would be a fabulous combo for 103 users on a budget, and would likely sonically outperform the (generally piss-poor) active MC stage in most budget phono stages/preamps.

This is what AOS is about: the bespoke, the unusual; opting for the more 'leftfield' choice and thinking outside of the box to unearth potential gems which offer the highest SPPV - not simply going for the usual boring suspects and 'me too' bollocks on the market.....

We will always alert people to that way of thinking with audio, as it usually makes life much more interesting and rewarding! :cool:

Marco.

Marco
31-05-2010, 19:30
Thinking back to what Neil said earlier, when I described The Head thus:


As an aside, I've often noticed people going on about T de P's 'The Head' SUT, and how wonderful it was, well I had one and found it a pretty unremarkable device - not bad by any means, just a little 'bland', somewhat fluffy sounding, and ultimately rather musically un-involving.


And he replied:


Not my experience of The Head at all.


I have since found this, which Neil posted elsewhere on an old thread:


http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/916/theheadrear.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/theheadrear.jpg/)


Observing the list of input impedances, none of them would in any way suit a DL-103, as they're far too low!

The 103 needs between 100-250 Ohms. I find 100 Ohms ideal.

The way too low input impedances for the 103 offered by The Head explains exactly the sound I experienced, but of course in no way reflects on its performance in conjunction with suitable cartridges :)

It's that synergy thing again!

Marco.

Barry
01-06-2010, 00:27
Thinking back to what Neil said earlier, when I described The Head thus:



And he replied:



I have since found this, which Neil posted elsewhere on an old thread:


http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/916/theheadrear.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/theheadrear.jpg/)


Observing the list of input impedances, none of them would in any way suit a DL-103, as they're far too low!

The 103 needs between 100-250k. I find 100 Ohms ideal.

The way too low input impedances for the 103 offered by The Head explains exactly the sound I experienced, but of course in no way reflects on its performance in conjunction with suitable cartridges :)

It's that synergy thing again!

Marco.

You have to be careful with Japanese SUTs. When discussing impedance, they seem to follow the convention of quoting the source (cartridge) impedance (or resistance) not the loading impedance. That is why the figures are so low.

Following that convention, 40 Ohm ought to be fine for the DL103.

I think, Marco, you meant to write "The 103 needs between 100-250 Ohm. I find 100 Ohm ideal." Otherwise the impedance you quote is far too high. A 'typo' no doubt.

At the moment I am using a Nakamichi MCB-100 SUT between the EMT and a standard 47K mm 'disc' input. The blurb for the Nakamich states:
Input impedance 2-20 Ohm
Output impedance 50k Ohm.

The EMT has a coil resistance of 22 Ohm, and the SUT works just fine, apart from having too much gain (20:1 turns ratio). It loads the EMT with ~120 Ohm; about right.

Regards

Marco
01-06-2010, 00:34
Hi Barry,

Yes that was a typo - now rectified :)


You have to be careful with Japanese SUTs. When discussing impedance, they seem to follow the convention of quoting the source (cartridge) impedance (or resistance) not the loading impedance. That is why the figures are so low.


Ah, I was wondering.....!


Following that convention, 40 Ohm ought to be fine for the DL103.


Thing is though, to my ears it wasn't.... The 103, through The Head, sounded as flat as a witch's tit!

It was typical of what I hear when a cartridge is loaded at too low an impedance.

Marco.

Barry
01-06-2010, 00:47
Hi Marco

Crickey that was quick!

Does your DL103SA have a coil resistance of 40 Ohm? Or were you specifically referring to the 103?

Either way, as I have posted elsewhere on similar discussions, the final arbiter should always be your ears.

The Nakamichi MCB-100 got an indifferent review in the same Practical Hi-Fi group review that praised the Lentek. So far the Nak sounds OK to me, but I will have to give it more time. In fact whilst my 44 pre is down, I intend to do a bit of SUT 'rolling'. Will report in due course.

Regards

Barry
01-06-2010, 09:09
I should have added that the most important parameter to quote when discussing SUTs is, of course, the turns-ratio (or voltage multiplication factor).

I assume the various impedance inputs on 'The Head' SUT, are different tappings on the primary winding. However, to make proper sense of their impedance designation, I would need to know the various turn-ratios.

I should also like to correct a mistake I made. The input impedance of the 'disc' input of the Quad 33 preamp is 68k not the 47k I had assumed. With the Nakamichi SUT this presents a load of ~170 Ohm to the cartridge. Probably even better for the EMT and just as good for the Denon 103.

Regards

DSJR
01-06-2010, 09:52
I'd suggest the info on the back panel are the nominal output impedance of the cartridge, rather than the load presented - The AT's are around 15 Ohms and the denon 40 Ohms I believe...


MARCO - you're a VERY naughty boy - more later ;)

Marco
01-06-2010, 09:59
Why - wot av oi dun now, sweetheart? :scratch:

:lol:


The AT's are around 15 Ohms and the denon 40 Ohms I believe...


That makes sense, but at the time with the stock DL-103, The Head still sounded pants (somewhat warm and mushy) compared to what I'm getting now with the Lentek, let alone the A23!

Marco.

DSJR
01-06-2010, 10:10
Why - wot av oi dun now, sweetheart? :scratch:

:lol:

Marco.

I was going to order some Sowters and get my mate hifi dave - with fully sharpened chainsaw, drill press, soldering iron and decades of soldering skills - to help me stick 'em in a little project box. But now I have other ideas first.... :uhho:

Marco
01-06-2010, 10:25
Such as - trying a Lentek with a DL-103 on a non-wobbly T/T through a decent, post 1970s MM phono stage? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Flyfisher
06-07-2010, 16:40
Can some one please explain how to find out which mc cartridges would be a good match to the three different inputs 4/15/40ohm inputs on the back of the much maligned The Head TX4 moving coil transformer.

Marco
06-07-2010, 17:41
Hi 'Flyfisher',

Welcome to AOS! :)

Before you go any further could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographical location, system details and music tastes, as this is a requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Thermionic
02-08-2010, 09:10
Just briefly going back to the HA500.

I bought mine when it was new back in the early 80’s, costly yes but I don’t think it was super expensive. Bought to replace a home built head amp the figure of around £100 sticks in the mind, which I think in those days, was about the price of a budget integrated amplifier.

I still use it from time to time.

Colin151
01-09-2010, 20:07
Can some one please explain how to find out which mc cartridges would be a good match to the three different inputs 4/15/40ohm inputs on the back of the much maligned The Head TX4 moving coil transformer.

Hi there, I have a TX4 transformer. I am pretty sure these different inputs just access different windings on the secondary of the transformers. And I am 95% sure the 40 ohm one is 1:10 step up ratio and the 4 ohm input gives 1:20 step up ratio. Not sure exactly about the 15 ohm one but I would guess 1:15 possibly, or maybe 1:13. I have worked this out based on their gain using a low impedance cartridge (Linn Troika, 3 ohms) and comparing to the gain of other known step ups I have.

There are no hard an fast rules, but the particular input you should use depends on two things, - how it sounds in general and the output level of your cartridge.
The loading into a 47K MM stage for these inputs is:
1:10 ratio 470 ohms
1:15 ratio about 210 ohms
1:20 ratio 117 ohms

Obviously a cartridge like the Troika which has 0.2mV output would be best (in terms of optimising the gain level) put into the 1:20 ratio input to bring the MM input level up to 4mV. BUT I prefer the way it sounds on the 1:10 ratio input with the higher loading,- more airy/more treble extension despite less output.

If you had a MC cartridge with higher output than the Troika, - say one of the Ortofons with 0.5mV output you would be unwise to use anything but the 1:10 step up ratio input anyway, as the other two might overload the MM stage (partularly if its a solid state MM stage). If you wanted to lower the loading you could use parallel resistors in betweeten the TX4 and the MM phono stage.

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Colin

Marco
01-09-2010, 21:30
Hi Colin,

Welcome to AOS :)

Great first post, and thanks for that.

However, could you do me a favour and pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your basic geographical location, system details and music tastes, as this is a requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Once done, you can then carry on and enjoy the discussions.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Alex_UK
01-09-2010, 22:35
Seconded - sounds like you have a lot to offer Colin, and would be great if you stick around and get stuck in, so to speak. :)

Colin151
02-09-2010, 01:19
Thanks for the welcome guys,
will post my details on the welcome area tomorrow.
Cheers,
Colin

Hi Colin,

Welcome to AOS :)

Great first post, and thanks for that.

However, could you do me a favour and pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your basic geographical location, system details and music tastes, as this is a requirement for all new members joining AOS.

Once done, you can then carry on and enjoy the discussions.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Marco
02-09-2010, 09:11
No problem, Colin - I look forward to that :)

Marco.