View Full Version : My Tannoys grew up
Or rather my Eatons found its father.
Father, by the name of Berkeleys, found a few days ago. Now settling in well to its new home. It is so pleased that it is singing like an angel demonstrating its ability to add scale, texture, weight and sheer unadulterated joy to well known music. No issue with its wide 15 inch HBDs over powering a medium size room with bass. It's baby, the Eatons, are similar in ability to convey detail, range and joy, but the Berkeleys add immense presence and immediacy. In a word - stunning.
The Berkeleys resided in the same room for nearly 30 years and collected a fair amount of dust and woodwork needs a small bit of TLC but the drivers look and sound mint. Grills seem to have been left on all the time.
Now on temp stands so drivers are at ear height. Need to sort out some plinths.
https://lwgkja.am.files.1drv.com/y4m9CYCzRDG9UI74NFI13uT9m5wfAr-0f7-QzsREFjlj0zubAuHCaIREsPbeh__oYLwmlmisMS3xDmGwaCDEi 67xWFyaNHgemSxHhItU516RlcfC11JKUVsWqs9_ACBxxjstSLt MdJvLsYTv6cavqmecciF42HgdzBJgcMVmUSEmev2f7xWs4iks9-x8bvW8nDgrpH69_8lp7hrOFnuSIIQJg?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none
Father and son showing off.
https://k2gjja.am.files.1drv.com/y4mq2zvS3c5PouKVswfatZj2Fan3yTUQLUcYNL_-4kHDvqI8b0uErT94u8ghnAkeke71iN9_ut2DRS5FALvpWg5BTz HTBUB-G3Ot1yJ1quUAjuj6MUVuMBxPvEhwQSAJMpp740IN-l6JCnww0QjAW5iMRIYV5E4VHrmKENhP00b2xDxSCv8GBcir-AAxoYMc-dJXeqC3ifNrBZfCHTMYpzmqQ?width=1024&height=578&cropmode=none
Berkeleys are the Mummies, Ardens are the Daddies :D
Oh dear, I'm obviously being gender fluid Roy. Woke is my middle name. :lol:
You are of course correct. Need to find some Ardens so it will be a family affair. :cool:
montesquieu
31-05-2019, 21:20
Absolultely classic in that room Edward and hardly take up any more space than standmounts :) They even match your mantelpiece.
Lawrence001
31-05-2019, 21:28
Absolultely classic in that room Edward and hardly take up any more space than standmounts :) They even match your mantelpiece.They certainly match their surroundings, no possible WAF issues there surely?
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montesquieu
31-05-2019, 21:29
They certainly match their surroundings, no possible WAF issues there surely?
I think they look great.
Make the Eatons look tiny, and they are pretty chunky speakers.
Lots of space for them to work in, must sound outstanding.
WESTLOWER
31-05-2019, 21:42
Top stuff Edward...sit back and enjoy!
Need to find some Ardens so it will be a family affair. :cool:
You could put together one of the best surround sound systems ever.
385mm of joy. And then double that.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/d500b3ae961864bf3ad78670c4408294.jpg
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Bloomin lovely Edward
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dantheman91
01-06-2019, 06:24
Takes me back to 2011 when my dad owned a pair of Berkeleys fond memories...
Hi Edward
It was great you could call in, only wish I had more time spare to have a listen on my system.
The Berkeleys look fantastic but I don't think youll like them, you need to drop them off here :lol: :)
Steve....
Here's what I did to mine if you ever get bored [emoji6]
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61592-My-Tannoy-Upgrade-as-recommended-by-Paul-Reference-Fidelity-Components
Huge.. Hugier than huge.. Lucky you
hornucopia
01-06-2019, 10:20
Weekend reading?
https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/review-system-1/
Lots of stuff about external X-overs, wires etc..
Berni217
01-06-2019, 10:36
Weekend reading?
https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/review-system-1/
Lots of stuff about external X-overs, wires etc..
.... and Vintage McIntosh= Yummy [emoji39]
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Very nice, Edward.
I once had a dream ... Tannoy surround-sound ... go on, you know it has to be done :D
Awesome!
Nice fireplace too :)
Been playing with the beasts for a few days to get a good sense of its sound. Wonderful.
Will play for a few more days with different amps. Then will take down and rip the speakers apart. With the generous help from Mike (mikey) here is the rough plan.
1. Remove drivers, xovers, damping etc
2. Bring the cabs up with a combination of oxalic acid (to remove aged black marks), sanding, restore'n'shine, finer sanding and feeding. May use Tung oil this time.
3. Recap crossovers (clarity caps probably). Hopefully the tweeter controls are still fine. They are a bit 'sticky' currently.
4. Install Silent Coat and acoustic foam.
5. Renew all internal wiring. Need to find new Tannoy 4 pin plugs possibly. Fit new speaker binding posts.
6. Refit everything and pray.
:cool:
Wakefield Turntables
02-06-2019, 17:43
" Need to find new Tannoy 4 pin plugs possibly. Fit new speaker binding posts."
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-new-build-quality-TANNOY-4-pin-speaker-plug-no-wires-Silver-Reds-Golds-HPD/152683403098
Here you go. I'll be using these on mine when I can be bothered to uprate my Tannoys X-O.
Wakefield Turntables
02-06-2019, 17:44
Great thread by the way. I love my 15" MG's. Always seem to surprise me in what they can do.
walpurgis
02-06-2019, 17:44
Or, if they are sounding wonderful, just leave them alone. Not every tweak is necessarily an improvement.
southall-1998_mk2
02-06-2019, 17:45
Or, if they are sounding wonderful, just leave them alone. Not every tweak is necessarily an improvement.
Agreed.
S.
" Need to find new Tannoy 4 pin plugs possibly. Fit new speaker binding posts."
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-new-build-quality-TANNOY-4-pin-speaker-plug-no-wires-Silver-Reds-Golds-HPD/152683403098
Here you go. I'll be using these on mine when I can be bothered to uprate my Tannoys X-O.
Snap! Tom put me onto these earlier on. Have you decided yet on what internal wiring you will use Andrew? I see you will be using WBT silver binding posts. Nice - and expensive!
Or, if they are sounding wonderful, just leave them alone. Not every tweak is necessarily an improvement.
This is very true Geoff - but where is the fun in that? :lol:
The cabs need tidying up so may as well do things whilst the drivers are out.
walpurgis
02-06-2019, 21:15
" Need to find new Tannoy 4 pin plugs possibly. Fit new speaker binding posts."
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-new-build-quality-TANNOY-4-pin-speaker-plug-no-wires-Silver-Reds-Golds-HPD/152683403098
Here you go. I'll be using these on mine when I can be bothered to uprate my Tannoys X-O.
They look fine and fancy, but has anybody actually measured the resistance through them compared to the originals when plugged in? Or checked what material they are made from? Also, I would not be surprised if the contact area is reduced and what is the outer spring blade section made from, steel maybe?
Weekend reading?
https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/review-system-1/
Lots of stuff about external X-overs, wires etc..
Thanks V much Chris - pure audio porn!
I'm trying to do this on the cheap you know. You're not helping! :lol:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190531/d500b3ae961864bf3ad78670c4408294.jpg
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Original cone surrounds? Looks like the driver may have been out at some stage & caused the scrape in the paint when it was being wrestled back in.
Wakefield Turntables
03-06-2019, 06:45
They look fine and fancy, but has anybody actually measured the resistance through them compared to the originals when plugged in? Or checked what material they are made from? Also, I would not be surprised if the contact area is reduced and what is the outer spring blade section made from, steel maybe?
Yes Paul at RFC uses them, he's knows his onions.
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 06:53
Original cone surrounds?
I don't think so.
They need rotating through 180 degrees though by the look of them. The weight of the cone has caused them to sag. If you look at the top of the surround, it's wider than the bottom.
There's no excuse for the paint to be chewed up like that, it's just hamfistedness. I've removed and reinstalled dozens of Tannoy drivers without marking the baffles.
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 06:56
Yes Paul at RFC uses them, he's knows his onions.
I didn't ask who uses them. I wanted to know if they'd been tested properly. I know my onions too when it comes to Tannoys, I've owned and worked on them for over forty years.
thingfish
03-06-2019, 06:58
Cone sag ain't nice Geoff.
There is something to be said of Upward / Downward fireing drivers.
Lest the ware is uniform.
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 07:04
Cone sag ain't nice Geoff.
There is something to be said of Upward / Downward fireing drivers.
Lest the ware is uniform.
I've seen those sag too. inwards or outwards depending on orientation.
Yes I think some work has been done at some point. The seller had the speakers for ca. 25 years and did not do any work on them so the work is now quite old.
Scratches all automagically gone now. :)
I will, when placing the drivers back in, turn them around 180°
I don't think so.
.
Thought not. Mikey’s looked different before he had his replaced
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/d884f8d3c5990fb1a77b12c378ddfb36.jpg
Wakefield Turntables
03-06-2019, 08:50
I didn't ask who uses them. I wanted to know if they'd been tested properly. I know my onions too when it comes to Tannoys, I've owned and worked on them for over forty years.
Well why don't you ask him then?? :rolleyes:
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 08:50
That view is typical of aged original surrounds. The small bubbles in the Tannoplas foam cone surrounds become more visible and the surround roll starts inverting or flattening. They're normally pretty sticky by this stage too.
Here's me chopping through a bad surround :).
http://i67.tinypic.com/2zfs8at.jpg
I don't think it's cone sag. The HPD surrounds are (if done correctly)clamped to the frame not glued and if the clamp holes in the foam aren't lined up properly you can get dimpling in the surround edge as the clamp screws pinch slightly-easy to remedy at the reckoning/refoaming stage but once in place over time it tends to become pretty stuck.
I've heard many significantly 'improved' Tannoys and been pretty underwhelmed every single time.
Change the binding posts and lose the lighting flex to the crossover.
If you are brave, re-install the HF driver after cleaning the gap/voicecoil/inside dome of diaphragm, measure, using the number and position of the paper washers and tightness/lack of of the 4 screws adjust for smoothest response/most pleasing sound, then do the same to the other one-the most significant improvement to a Tannoy DC that cost nothing but time.
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 09:42
I've just rotated the drivers in mine because of slight visible sag. It happens!
I've just rotated the drivers in mine because of slight visible sag. It happens!
It's nothing I've ever obsessed over but yeah agree it's deffo a worthwhile precaution and takes all of 5 mins to execute
I don't think it's cone sag. The HPD surrounds are (if done correctly)clamped to the frame not glued and if the clamp holes in the foam aren't lined up properly you can get dimpling in the surround edge as the clamp screws pinch slightly-easy to remedy at the reckoning/refoaming stage but once in place over time it tends to become pretty stuck.
I've heard many significantly 'improved' Tannoys and been pretty underwhelmed every single time.
Change the binding posts and lose the lighting flex to the crossover.
If you are brave, re-install the HF driver after cleaning the gap/voicecoil/inside dome of diaphragm, measure, using the number and position of the paper washers and tightness/lack of of the 4 screws adjust for smoothest response/most pleasing sound, then do the same to the other one-the most significant improvement to a Tannoy DC that cost nothing but time.
It's nothing I've ever obsessed over but yeah agree it's deffo a worthwhile precaution and takes all of 5 mins to execute
Well I'm certainly brave Frank, but what you mention seems quite complex and prone to error. :eyebrows:
But first things first, what is the simplest/easiest way of getting the heavy drivers out of the cabs without damaging things such as the baffle? I could fashion hooks of some sort to insert though the screw holes and lift. Or alternatively have the cabs upright and with a helper ease the drivers out. With other speakers I've simply eased the drivers out with the cabs upright and with my other hand caught the driver.
E
Hmmm, I'm not getting email alerts on this thread.
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 12:42
Never try to remove Tannoy drivers with the cabinets upright. The drive units are heavy and awkward to handle this way, it would be all too easy for one to slip and a hand go through the cone trying to save it or it could end up getting broken on the floor.
I always lay the cabinets on their backs and use a bolt that just fits into the mounting holes to lever the driver up so it can be grasped.
Well I'm certainly brave Frank, but what you mention seems quite complex and prone to error. :eyebrows:
But first things first, what is the simplest/easiest way of getting the heavy drivers out of the cabs without damaging things such as the baffle? I could fashion hooks of some sort to insert though the screw holes and lift. Or alternatively have the cabs upright and with a helper ease the drivers out. With other speakers I've simply eased the drivers out with the cabs upright and with my other hand caught the driver.
E
Hmmm, I'm not getting email alerts on this thread.
As Geoff says cab flat on its back, someone to help helps, i use an allen key into one of the bolt holes to hook under the frame then covering the edge near the hole with your other hand to protect the cone incase you slip. Small towel to rest the driver on the baffle .Just be careful as the cut-outs are pretty east to chip chipboard.
Thanks guys. Yes I would feel uncomfortable with them upright for the risks mentioned.
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hornucopia
03-06-2019, 13:47
My wife has memories of being bored by a guys wife(WIFE!!) telling her in detail how Leak sandwich magnets drop over time, and how you had to turn the speakers at intervals to correct this.
As her interest in hi-fi is minimal......glazed eyes!
is the Tannoy problem the same (as you call it cone drop, rather than magnet?)
Must do mine-both original Sandwiches, and the 3090s!
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 14:27
Never heard of magnet drop, they have to be rigidly fixed. The Leaks use three beefy bolts if I recall.
I've heard of and seen bonded magnets fall off completely (NS-1000?), but there's no stage at which rotating would cure this.
hornucopia
03-06-2019, 15:11
You've just saved me lumping huge cabinets about!
One driver out.
I've never looked inside an HPD but this looks quite tidy. Anything I need to be aware of here please? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/79fc62d6d033dcb688e847560ea62cdb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/4f371e2c1c4299b61f4b1589cee3b1ab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/5f3d171123943296fb57073093d7a80f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/b400b1198c46bbc87eee699700343170.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/ea4739fa583f89a9b0adacd66311ecd8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/deda32da11a609a73ff3bebe91cba940.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/9c729d38357ebf7e41c044da39f597d1.jpg
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And now the crossover. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/513b0782b98b82d0471b225f5c30d3f5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/2521b428ae4a8de0e531c590367d05c6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/3ad38171253642a34e3227cb5a7a4b80.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/b18238d82a24a15d288b25da8eff0d4c.jpg
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graham67
03-06-2019, 15:59
Hi Edward,
If they havent been touched for 25 years, it is almost certain they will need refoaming.
I see you are in London, so I can highly recommend Wembley Loudspeakers who refoamed my 385 HPDs at a very reasonable cost a couple of years ago.
atb
The driver looks fine, foam looks good. I'd replace the crossover gasket foam and clean the pots with deoxit etc and maybe reflow all the solder joints on the crossover-10 minute job. Wembley and Lockwood do the 'quick and dirty' refoam ie they stick it to the front of the cone and in my opinion I wouldn't buy a pair done that way..
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 16:48
Wembley and Lockwood do the 'quick and dirty' refoam ie they stick it to the front of the cone and in my opinion I wouldn't buy a pair done that way..
Neither would I, unless they were cheap and I was planning to replace the surrounds and do it properly.
By the way, it could be that those are original surrounds, as the white glue holding them under the Girdacoustic cone ribs appears as new and undisturbed.
Neither would I, unless they were cheap and I was planning to replace the surrounds and do it properly.
By the way, it could be that those are original surrounds, as the white glue holding them under the Girdacoustic cone ribs appears as new and undisturbed.
Yeah I was going to suggest they may well have been re-coned at some point.
Geoff and Frank you both are agreeing with each other but appear to be saying the opposite. :) Not clear if these speakers have been reconed or had new surrounds now.
Anyway the reason I took the driver out for now was that I was getting partial sound from that one speaker which at some point was cured for a while by moving the treble energy pot. So the idea was to deox that pot. Putting it all together after the deox it worked fine for a while, but then I started getting hum from that speaker. So a rapid switch off and now have to have a think. Suspect that some rust or something has loosened in the pot creating a weak short. Is there an easy way of opening up the pot, replacing it or simply bypassing it?
walpurgis
03-06-2019, 18:09
Geoff and Frank you both are agreeing with each other but appear to be saying the opposite.
No. A recone would be as I described, showing intact glue on the bracing ribs.
The treble controls aren't pots, they're rotary switches and definitely do benefit from cleaning. Switch cleaner is fine, just keep away from the plastic of the crossover.
If you work the controls back and forth a few times, you should find any apparent faults start going away.
No. A recone would be as I described, showing intact glue on the bracing ribs.
The treble controls aren't pots, they're rotary switches and definitely do benefit from cleaning. Switch cleaner is fine, just keep away from the plastic of the crossover.
If you work the controls back and forth a few times, you should find any apparent faults start going away.
Thanks Geoff. Yes rotary switches (I used the terminology frank used). I have worked the controls back and forth a lot but that did not help. I'll try more.
What do you think may be causing the hum?
cheers
Edward
Geoff and Frank you both are agreeing with each other but appear to be saying the opposite. :) Not clear if these speakers have been reconed or had new surrounds now.
Anyway the reason I took the driver out for now was that I was getting partial sound from that one speaker which at some point was cured for a while by moving the treble energy pot. So the idea was to deox that pot. Putting it all together after the deox it worked fine for a while, but then I started getting hum from that speaker. So a rapid switch off and now have to have a think. Suspect that some rust or something has loosened in the pot creating a weak short. Is there an easy way of opening up the pot, replacing it or simply bypassing it?
OK the foams look good so for a 40 year driver with a foam life expectancy of 20 years max and judging by the appearance of the strut glue line they dont look to have been re foamed so they've likely been reconed within the last 15 years or so..
'Hum' seems a weird speaker HF fault.
Swap L/R speakers over and see if the hum follows the speaker-if it doesn't, its your amp.
You can open the switches(rotary) up but its a pain to do-i'd flush the sh!t out of them and manipulate the switches .
It's possible to hard wire the tone controls(or should I say energy and level controls....), bypassing the switches but I've never done it.
And now the crossover. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190603/b18238d82a24a15d288b25da8eff0d4c.jpg
Hi Edward. Is there burning on the 2.2ohm resistor, bottom right of this crossover?
It looks scorched to me but photo is out of focus. Try re-flowing these solder joints.
It's the short resistor, about half the length of the others and is a known fail point, have a read at this website http://www.cma4ch.org/chemo/attivita/xover385a.html
Those do not look like the original foam surrounds. Mine were exactly the same as the those in the photo Roy posted of Mike's.
I have the gold plated speaker plugs. They measure the same resistance on my multimeter as the original Tannoy ones, 0.1 ohm, which is just the resolution of the meter. You'd need a milliohm meter to get a truer reading. The big plus is they're less prone to corrosion and most importantly the contacts are spring loaded so always stay tight.
I bypassed the switches on mine with soldered wire links. Certainly an improvement in clarity but cleaning the switches might be just as good.
Hi Edward. Is there burning on the 2.2ohm resistor, bottom right of this crossover?
It looks scorched to me but photo is out of focus. Try re-flowing these solder joints.
It's the short resistor, about half the length of the others and is a known fail point, have a read at this website http://www.cma4ch.org/chemo/attivita/xover385a.html
Those do not look like the original foam surrounds. Mine were exactly the same as the those in the photo Roy posted of Mike's.
I have the gold plated speaker plugs. They measure the same resistance on my multimeter as the original Tannoy ones, 0.1 ohm, which is just the resolution of the meter. You'd need a milliohm meter to get a truer reading. The big plus is they're less prone to corrosion and most importantly the contacts are spring loaded so always stay tight.
I bypassed the switches on mine with soldered wire links. Certainly an improvement in clarity but cleaning the switches might be just as good.
Hi John
Yes I did notice that scorching. I think I will have to get the xover out again and measure everything with the MM to detect cold joints or broken tracks and reflow as required. Hopefully that will sort things out. I'll also measure the standard 4 pin plug but like you my MM only goes to 0.1 ohm (+\- 0.8%). I assume I will also be able to measure the various continuities of the rotary switch.
If I found reflowing stuff does not work I may ask you which joints you hard wired to bypass the switches. Or perhaps you could let me know anyhow.
Failing all that I may just get Mark Pitcher's (mainlytannoy) drop in crossover boards and be done with that for now. Or perhaps Paul (RFC) can also do drop in boards. My project does not cost justify his external (rather wonderful) crossovers.
Mea culpa!
The hum was caused by interconnects being too near speaker cables. :o :rolleyes:
walpurgis
04-06-2019, 09:25
Mea culpa!
The hum was caused by interconnects being too near speaker cables. :o :rolleyes:
That shouldn't cause hum.
That shouldn't cause hum.
Perhaps a loose connection at rear of amp. I 'jiggled' (well known technical term :eyebrows: ) the wires at rear of amp, hum went and I assumed speakers cables lying too close to interconnects.
Anyway now switched over amps. This time to Tom's Valeb Nelson Pass inspired 20w amp. Beautiful textured liquidity with rich midband and open top. Slightly less bass slam but still palpable.
walpurgis
04-06-2019, 10:02
I 'jiggled' (well known technical term :eyebrows: ).
Yes. Jiggle is the correct technical description. Wiggle is reserved for suspect valves. :)
Yes. Jiggle is the correct technical description. Wiggle is reserved for suspect valves. :)
All my valves are in fine fettle I'll have you know Geoff. No wiggling needed here! :lol:
hornucopia
04-06-2019, 11:54
I once isolated a hum caused by a 2mm exposed wire picking up transformer hum. "Flying leads' solved this.
Hi Edward, here's the info on shorting out the treble energy and roll-off switches.
Something to note: this is only applicable to treble energy-1 setting (which I like best) and roll off setting at level. If you attempt this procedure you should set the switches to these positions before you start and not move them again while the links are in place as although shorted out the switches are still connected and moving them will create a parallel circuit which the crossovers or drivers were not designed for and may cause damage.
Three links are required per crossover (the ones with the red lines, ignore other grey cables)which relate to the three pairs of coloured dots on the schematic below. I've put a note to say that there's no connection to the track just above the left hand link as it looks very close on the photo.
P.S. I came up with this myself so do so at your own risk!! :D
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/8CDD181B-25A9-48DA-B648-EB304943E531.png
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/8944DBE6-D125-48EF-899E-B17E5FE82976.png
Hi Edward, here's the info on shorting out the treble energy and roll-off switches.
Something to note: this is only applicable to treble energy-1 setting (which I like best) and roll off setting at level. If you attempt this procedure you should set the switches to these positions before you start and not move them again while the links are in place as although shorted out the switches are still connected and moving them will create a parallel circuit which the crossovers or drivers were not designed for and may cause damage.
Three links are required per crossover (the ones with the red lines, ignore other grey cables)which relate to the three pairs of coloured dots on the schematic below. I've put a note to say that there's no connection to the track just above the left hand link as it looks very close on the photo.
P.S. I came up with this myself so do so at your own risk!! :D
Wow John, thanks very much for this. Looks simple enough. Yes running a parallel circuit is not ideal. If I were to do this I probably would disengage the switches from their spindles (somehow) to remove the risk.
I do hope you already had the pictures available and did not open up your cabs just for me. But if you did a double thanks!
Up to today I've driving the Berkeleys with other amps as my Radford STA25 was out on loan. But now back in and boy do the Berkeleys rock. :rock:
I'm gonna miss them when I do the cab restore and xover recap.
No problem Edward. My crossovers are in a state of flux (literally) at the moment as I am experimenting with different capacitors and are actually sitting on top of my cabs with massive Mundorf Supremes hanging from them so photos weren't a problem. There are definitely transparency gains to be had with new caps and the biggest difference you will notice is the stereo imaging will come into focus massively compared to the old caps. These drivers can do pinpoint placement of instruments in a big soundstage. It's now one of my favourite attributes of these great speakers.
They can sound dynamically flat with an amplifier with too high a damping factor. The Radford is probably ideal in this regard, not too high, not too low.
Could I ask you for a favour?
Would you measure the bass port diameter and length please and let me know?
Thanks
No problem Edward. My crossovers are in a state of flux (literally) at the moment as I am experimenting with different capacitors and are actually sitting on top of my cabs with massive Mundorf Supremes hanging from them so photos weren't a problem. There are definitely transparency gains to be had with new caps and the biggest difference you will notice is the stereo imaging will come into focus massively compared to the old caps. These drivers can do pinpoint placement of instruments in a big soundstage. It's now one of my favourite attributes of these great speakers.
They can sound dynamically flat with an amplifier with too high a damping factor. The Radford is probably ideal in this regard, not too high, not too low.
Could I ask you for a favour?
Would you measure the bass port diameter and length please and let me know?
Thanks
Diameter is 7cm and length is 12cm (which includes ~0.5cm baffle thickness).
Oh you are in the midst of a recap - how handy!
Yes instrument placement precision is up there in terms of what I listen out for. Makes for a very involving and 'there' sound.
Are you just doing caps or also looking at resistors? I've not done resistors in the past.
Would love to see your parts list. I had imagined going with the ClarityCap ESA range but perhaps your choice is better?
Feel free to take it to PM if you wish.
Thanks for the measurements.
I went with Mundorf Mcap (white ones) for the three bass caps and Clarity Cap ESA for the 1.5 and 4.7. The 3.3 I used Mundorf Evo oil as per Paul Coupe's (RFC) recommendation.
I've since changed them all to Mundorf Supremes (big black expensive ones) except the 3.3 which is a Supreme evo oil (black and red). I've a notion the ESA was nicer in 4.7 position. Slightly shut in but more dynamic and natural. Supremes are good in the bass though compared to the white ones. It's ongoing, I'll swap the ESAs back and keep you in the loop.
I haven't changed any resistors or inductors, yet! :)
This might be of interest
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?28770-Tannoy-Crossovers-Capacitor-testing-and-evaluation
Thanks John and also for the link. I'll have a good read. :)
Thanks for the measurements.
I went with Mundorf Mcap (white ones) for the three bass caps and Clarity Cap ESA for the 1.5 and 4.7. The 3.3 I used Mundorf Evo oil as per Paul Coupe's (RFC) recommendation.
I've since changed them all to Mundorf Supremes (big black expensive ones) except the 3.3 which is a Supreme evo oil (black and red). I've a notion the ESA was nicer in 4.7 position. Slightly shut in but more dynamic and natural. Supremes are good in the bass though compared to the white ones. It's ongoing, I'll swap the ESAs back and keep you in the loop
Just compared the ESA and Mundorf Supreme in the 4.7 position. The ESA is darker sounding which gives a sense of natural tonality. The Supreme is ever so slightly metallic or hifi sounding (tipped up in the treble) but is a lot more open and dynamic giving the music a sense of purpose and life. Hard to go back to the ESAs tbh.
Good resource here Edward. Ken is a member on AoS (Qwin) and his design work always looks excellent. These are 12" HPDs so crossover is slightly different.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/HPD_HTML/HPD_Thumbs.html
Thanks for that John. Yes Qwin (Ken) and I had some nice exchanges when I was doing some active crossovers with a set of 3 way speakers I have. (note to self: carry on with that project!). I'll have a dig around Ken's website.
So I am reasonably consistently getting an imbalance between the two speakers. So I tried various things changing cables, inputs etc. Imbalance, essentially lower output by about 20% on one speaker.
So I removed drivers and crossovers on both speakers (marking each as set a or b) and then swapped crossover a with crossover b. Imbalance now moved across to the other speaker meaning the drivers are fine (thank goodness) but something amiss with the crossovers. I also assume it is in the early stage of the crossover as the reduced output is on both LF and HF.
From the above is there anything obvious I can do on the mildly faulty crossover to remedy the issue?
tia
§
Only thing common is the -ve track I think. Corrosion of the track, bad joint(s)?
Lawrence001
06-06-2019, 23:07
Diameter is 7cm and length is 12cm (which includes ~0.5cm baffle thickness).
Oh you are in the midst of a recap - how handy!
Yes instrument placement precision is up there in terms of what I listen out for. Makes for a very involving and 'there' sound.
Are you just doing caps or also looking at resistors? I've not done resistors in the past.
Would love to see your parts list. I had imagined going with the ClarityCap ESA range but perhaps your choice is better?
Feel free to take it to PM if you wish.Didn't realise the baffles were so thin, I wonder if this adds to the classic Tannoy sound?
Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
Lawrence001
06-06-2019, 23:08
So I am reasonably consistently getting an imbalance between the two speakers. So I tried various things changing cables, inputs etc. Imbalance, essentially lower output by about 20% on one speaker.
So I removed drivers and crossovers on both speakers (marking each as set a or b) and then swapped crossover a with crossover b. Imbalance now moved across to the other speaker meaning the drivers are fine (thank goodness) but something amiss with the crossovers. I also assume it is in the early stage of the crossover as the reduced output is on both LF and HF.
From the above is there anything obvious I can do on the mildly faulty crossover to remedy the issue?
tia
§Do the switches move over with the crossovers? Could they both be gunky and need cleaning?
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Do the switches move over with the crossovers? Could they both be gunky and need cleaning?
Yes the switches are pretty much an integral part of the crossovers. I've deoxed them which helped a bit but have not actually dismantled the switches.
Well yes - kind of. Been in contact with Paul C. I'll be sending the crossovers to him which he will sort out and upgrade (new caps, copper on pcb tracks etc). He will also measure/calibrate things such that responses will be within 1%.
Given that the original crossovers are as rare as angel's poo this seems the best course of action.
Now onto the cabs .... Waiting for dry weather so I can sand the beasts in the garden.
atb
Edward
Good for you!
Well I really took the coward's route. I ought really have got stuck in with my soldering iron. :lol:
John
In a previous post I gave you the dimensions of the bass tube and also Lawrence questioned the width of the baffle board. I'm stripping things down so had another look.
The diameter is still 7cm but the length of the bass tube is more like 12 cm. This from the edge of the baffle board to the bottom of the tube. I think I mentioned 11.
The baffle board where the tube is measures 2cm in thickness, and as the glue line where the tube meets the baffle board is about 0. 75cm I guess there is some form of routing lip to hold the tube. However I can't see or feel such a lip.
The width of the baffle board where the driver sits is 4cm, the extra width being an extra layer from the top of the cabinet to about 2/3 down the cabinet.
Here is a picture of the glue line I mentioned.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190608/ad8d6f604621e18c39484a0bde55e9d9.jpg
§
While stripping down I found these badges. Magic!
I had wondered where they had gone. Now the drivers look complete. :)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190608/702522526af9904b1485557fc4b7d8e2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190608/1c6443e4124c1dfeb8108a05b7f5826f.jpg
§
For those of you who want to take on a HPD385 crossover full restore here is RFC's walk through (so far) of mine being done.
The attention to detail reflecting Paul's years of experience and expertise shines through. I have no doubt the crossovers will be a massive improvement.
Part 1 (https://www.facebook.com/290168707702900/photos/a.291913134195124/2211773138875771/?type=3&theater)
Part 2 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2213689872017431&id=290168707702900&__xts__[0]=68.ARBWfJliMPX6dMp5tog1cZ6MRF9pBBxreI9CA5y7kfzI8m dht9zYBcu0uJ46v7bMH4vYVeKFnwuTyqlleHwWzbd8KcQxh_I2 aZEY_VH9qunhjO04N5jtRFduxSC6KdDMtLNjHqU5Rr4JfdVUc9 MxgjS1nEhxbeZ9-gwpZAGB27aAg0oqWykUOsuXPGmc4URAL_vjoIgqvqiYj_YJzmG XoYJl-blTuZQIHwsZPCIJdzacPX-_t7k6b38j5kgTvQNztZqCNiDT865ElLTHc-O_NImWlANP-c2QlF9kbgOIANlevx5wjomxv1FmMmFFsNiznwiSMwhIltYWJW3 mltgZ1Hbl-Q&__tn__=-R)
Part 3 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2213727298680355&id=290168707702900&__xts__[0]=68.ARDvcGUc3yS-5Yon0FU81m5H9rCFDgyfWAUigLu9OWXapR0Hm8QiC91Pt3ClEc V-oNN5rNPpTcfdbreGTogXIDGWFjVzdQV_0vWeUlYk2P_5Bp-voPAQGp0nHC8zLJA-L5fwAKbUhwFlBhOi0Mf5YVN0OXVPK6mHYeFf55gqTG1ETr_GYA zaoieTvJY3HvStNOSG1CozhhEe5y7hbWzSKeukntc9c-EgC9HE5_vpubw5U6Ptb76lk_REFFrjc8Z_JuF3qEmO9zCcnvs7 Ey-SIdqwniRJRbix8my0X8If_UBfOJt2bluSA6237q0JNaUNO6iou WwEI8c1lUjiaAXAneME9Q&__tn__=-R)
Been watching the refurb on Facebook if those are your ones [emoji106]
Smashing job as usual from Paul!
Before and after.
Nice silver plated CMC posts.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190613/fbb66afb503c0b8a7a7397ac7b0dddb9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190613/ce390601b2e08a00b0286aea8192a9dc.jpg
§
graham67
13-06-2019, 21:02
Lovely work from Paul. He really takes the care and effort to produce an excellent job.
Crossovers on the way back to me ....
:cool:
Crossovers on the way back to me ....
:cool:
That was quick!
Crossovers on the way back to me ....
:cool:[emoji50] brilliant you better get those cabs done pronto [emoji23]
41 years of grunge, a few minutes of Brasso.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190614/93dde2337cb0a94a35613a3fb4d29ee7.jpg
§
Are the round badges just glued onto the grilles? I don't want to damage it when I take it off. Mine is almost black and need cleaning.
I say 'is' because I've only got one - the other one is missing so I've been on the lookout for a spare for ages :(. Anyone got one?
Are the round badges just glued onto the grilles? I don't want to damage it when I take it off. Mine is almost black and need cleaning.
I say 'is' because I've only got one - the other one is missing so I've been on the lookout for a spare for ages :(. Anyone got one?
Mine has a nut on the back as per picture here.
Eatons are the same.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190614/0e1fdbd3beaca89b05c88d7301952ca8.jpg
§
Well, I'd never had guessed that! I'll give mine a polish this weekend ;) Cheers.
Brass ones rub up well too.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48062944167_d8cddccc8f_z.jpg
Right, I'm getting jealous now. I NEED another badge :doh:
Right, I'm getting jealous now. I NEED another badge :doh:
Stick a wanted post in Private Exhibitions. You never know.
Alternatively contact the mainlytannoy (https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/mainlytannoy) guy on ebay to see if he has a spare. He does not have one currently listed but perhaps he can sort you out
41 years of grunge, a few minutes of Brasso.
Ooh might give mine a rub up (not that I use them). I have 2 sets of covers, 1 original & 1 someone's knocked up out of firewood (they're not that bad - just a black covered one piece cover with stick on later badges instead of the original 3 pieces per speaker).
Stick a wanted post in Private Exhibitions. You never know.
Alternatively contact the mainlytannoy (https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/mainlytannoy) guy on ebay to see if he has a spare. He does not have one currently listed but perhaps he can sort you out
Cheers Edward, I'll give him a try ;)
Hi Edward, here's the info on shorting out the treble energy and roll-off switches.
Something to note: this is only applicable to treble energy-1 setting (which I like best) and roll off setting at level. If you attempt this procedure you should set the switches to these positions before you start and not move them again while the links are in place as although shorted out the switches are still connected and moving them will create a parallel circuit which the crossovers or drivers were not designed for and may cause damage.
Three links are required per crossover (the ones with the red lines, ignore other grey cables)which relate to the three pairs of coloured dots on the schematic below. I've put a note to say that there's no connection to the track just above the left hand link as it looks very close on the photo.
P.S. I came up with this myself so do so at your own risk!! :D
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/8CDD181B-25A9-48DA-B648-EB304943E531.png
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/8944DBE6-D125-48EF-899E-B17E5FE82976.png
That top image is wrong, think this is correct. Was unable to edit original post.
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Mobile%20Uploads/83DAE992-DD78-4CC9-8DB5-FF67ADB22882.png
How are the crossovers Edward?
I'll guess the stereo image is much improved.
Only managed to plug the crossovers back in late today - but wow!
All I expected and more.
Gonna let things settle in for a few days and then come back here with more thoughts and observations. But I'd hazard a guess that the speakers sound even better than when they left Coatbridge back in 1978 - thanks to Paul's expertise and careful calibrating of the crossovers.
:cool:
Excellent. Glad to hear it.
Excellent. Glad to hear it.How are yours John?
§
WAF OK so far. :)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190618/ac90d1a9dd3e6362514de529302cf5cd.jpg
Lawrence001
18-06-2019, 21:27
WAF OK so far. :)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190618/ac90d1a9dd3e6362514de529302cf5cd.jpgThose stands look a little undersized!
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It's all I have for now mate ...:).
But they are pretty solid nevertheless. Partingdons.
Massive difference lifting them up this amount.
Looks like your sorted Ed. Great news your happy with them
Getting a proper job on the crossovers made sense. You've got a great set up there, something that really does justice to the music.
I've been lax in updating this thread.
Been using the RFC enhanced crossovers in the Berkeleys and what a difference they make. Music is 'just right'. Not only did it cure the problem I had before (one channel partly down due to blown resistor) the sound has been lifted so that the everything feels very fresh, massive amounts of detail, great full range sound with huge amount of 'air' around instruments. Same quality sound regardless of what volume level is employed. Mind you with 15 inch drivers and only a medium size room not a lot of volume is needed.
Mainly used the Radford amp to drive the Tannoys but also a Trilogy 968 (new purchase ) as well as the Baldwin 405 clone. All different but all excellent.
Currently the speakers are in pieces as I work on the cabs. Spent quite some time sanding and fixing up the veneer as much as possible. Used oxalic acid sparingly (Paul at RFC warned me about possibility of veneer lifting) so took it easy. That improved much of the dark water marks and gave the cabs a much more even finish. Finished off with a good quality carnauba and beeswax down to 400 grit paper. But the cabs still show signs of age so may look to have them re-veneered (been in discussion with knipster on that). But I may just stop on the external veneer for now. TBD.
Currently removing all the internal foam to get the cabs ready for the silent coat and foam wedge recipe that RFC recommends, same recipe that mikeyb used on his Berkeleys to great effect. Removing the foam is a sticky, sweaty and nasty job. :rolleyes: Tannoy used a good glue originally.
Need to find some gasket material for both the drivers and the crossovers when I put them back in. Any recommendations?
hornucopia
09-08-2019, 14:20
Surface aging? It's called 'Patina'!
Cork good for sound proofing-....and gasket.
Surface aging? It's called 'Patina'!
Cork good for sound proofing-....and gasket.
Patina. :) Yes indeed the cabs have a lovely patina. However the remaining marks are unfortunately water marks that penetrated the finish and blackened. The oxalic acid reduced this considerably and further polishing has helped a lot. But looking for perfection! What I need to do is to sell everything and negotiate a nice price with you for your Ocellia babies. :cool:
Just remembered I have some Wilmslow Audio sealing strip from a previous project. May have enough but cheap if I need more.
Moved this project on a lot. Done the Silent Coat and installed the acoustic foam.
Did additional bracing and reinstalled crossovers, drivers etc. Will do gaskets at a later stage - was eager to hear how things sound.
Brilliant. Sound is fast, bass does not roll of so soon, everything even more precise.
pasted below are some listening notes I did. Followed by some pictures of things.
Thanks to everyone who has helped me on this, but especially a big shout out to Paul C and Micky for being so patient with my questions.
Listening notes:
immediate impression
clear open detailed sound - essentially more of the same.
but after a few minutes was evident that something vital had occurred.
transients much faster - instruments start and more importantly decay more naturally.
This is esp. true of Way Down Deep by Jennifer Warnes. Bass much much tighter. More 'punch' and like before decay much more natural - no 'tail'. Bass seems less rolled off the deeper it goes (not measured in room response).
'Right Off' track on 'A Tribute to Jack Johnson' by Miles Davis. Instruments more defined in their own space yet holding overall cohesiveness.
Still all the pin point sharpness and 'naturalness' but less speaker bound. Music gains more height and depth. This is without even placing speakers accurately and indeed without lifting them where drivers are at ear height.
Now some acoustic guitar. Michael Hedges 'Rickover's Dream'. Once again fast, precise, natural. Speakers effectively taking a back seat and letting the music flow.
Soft, ill defined, vague - no way.
Some midrange test. Andreas Scholl (countertenor) in a Gluck piece 'Orfeo er Euridice - Che Faro senza Euridice?'
Great clarity and precision. Once again attack and decay just delicious.
and on it goes ..
Before - grubby and tired.
https://lwghja.am.files.1drv.com/y4mcpI-rFByuDlbUxKcx4S4cv_UopFzXqBaNkQWVP4bEBNDYLkJ16RJay Nd6eTP4HP84TWIUcSu3EWivUhFPDjhzV05W_CrRweO6psN3Ng_ rpbSSBgT6yu0ZhrUZdEYhVbAg6sPrzuIHGJ1tBw8HfVxIges02 fUOjT043heavJpWfvCxlSLvpLCgS_ZAlDaOroONlpGoAX6O6uc BZlXBXxnRg?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none
After
https://mpwlja.am.files.1drv.com/y4mQhvQx6oCCiqGq0J3fA75Pg8RZBkje2ozlO5WIU9umGLc4uZ vLw7B_YjpkPNNPz4eSXtpr3lIcc7CAT9mny4KXB2ox3VLel88b KSLKz340xNNyZfeLnuQqrKqpZl2BBuxrsGR7O6DR7q5zSfANg-BLKCgiuss7fjLaAQ78x_XMnIV5Dwv2sXWT8VHmAk63544AEBL1 sz0mr_QShXy_s2oFQ?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none
Silent Coat in, before acoustic foam
https://kpzggq.am.files.1drv.com/y4mxNKtD8IjLUNM1Cfe26lkJ8Mzfs6zdPD9nf4jofkc2-Hw1S-q5QAUiwxmlooT99whu3LMP3njSisxOLA-L8xIS0pEIwnHKw-4DcIAHkLNtuA0owQTgZTz94a31g8FUBVoRrzzhK_7WFSCBbdTT EccsQ8wDtn9kezib2KwyX6Krbf4pFYSOtoZZpAxpJE7IsUzCyq uIURRYsONr5jG8iyzVA?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none
Acoustic foam.
https://lozegq.am.files.1drv.com/y4mxlRHDzBy1_YizapUgXU-jZnQT-R3F7SWl3zYzCmGCuGy75uac5ZtTeI96l1r_gaojEhwhtzRLAlq uBP_kGLVvdjPsM-cZadaRAYPgnKrNoq_5e7liqxkYSmgUupKCd3cjVRNoqzvbIrTD vrl48Oo-ojhL4OVlyWE3fURE_C-ek93C6XrmDqIYcLXIoYW685laNlxetdcgTcIhvhBkX6-Iw?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none
Completed speaker.
https://mpwnja.am.files.1drv.com/y4m6qIUA5SC7VFhRV36jIu5-GOOprjZa5a4cSNy43J28oH-l3bsU_6yCyCtiMoVN-4l0iVcT11UZcpjIC02Wczd0TF3OM6Z2UtSuFo4OE_bUUd5i3lw ppKsXcPyP57lmX95kG8kWGmrZK1hZ-VNljILm0OftLxuVxD9Ad5Rq_f-4t8dLBUgJ3-BchMiiMuQ5rbGZNeuWZYuji23XIcas0FkWw?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none
WESTLOWER
15-08-2019, 19:35
Super stuff and very rewarding..
They look toptastic Ed :clapclapclap:
graham67
15-08-2019, 22:02
Lovely, I bet they sound just as gorgeous. Great job ��
Well done, great to see them done. I'm still delighted with mine and glad to have helped.
Thanks guys. Got some more mileage on them. Blooming marvelous. The texture, clarity, speed and detail are to die for. Well not literally!
Even SWMBO asked for the volume to be turned up and said how the singer felt like being in the room.
Looking very good Edward. well done on the refurb. When I refurbed my smaller Telefunkens, I dis same and left their war wounds there but just repaired the bad bits and freshened them up. Took longer than just re veneering them but they have more character.
Looking very good Edward. well done on the refurb. When I refurbed my smaller Telefunkens, I dis same and left their war wounds there but just repaired the bad bits and freshened them up. Took longer than just re veneering them but they have more character.
I did think of having them re veneered (well strictly speaking over veneered) but the quotes I got took it into the expensive territory. Paul said he thought I would be able to do it myself (by taking my time) but I'm not sure I would be up for that. An alternative I thought of was to have them professionally painted by a car finisher. Gloss piano black! :)
Did you do the silent coat and new acoustic foam on your Telefunkens? This, in my case, adds the 'magic' to the set up.
I did think of having them re veneered (well strictly speaking over veneered) but the quotes I got took it into the expensive territory. Paul said he thought I would be able to do it myself (by taking my time) but I'm not sure I would be up for that. An alternative I thought of was to have them professionally painted by a car finisher. Gloss piano black! :)
Did you do the silent coat and new acoustic foam on your Telefunkens? This, in my case, adds the 'magic' to the set up.
yup, although different foam ... There are pics of the build around. The cabs were all smashed when i got them. drivers held in with nails. no foam. port all wrong etc. so took a while.. used cabinet repair wax in many places... they came out fairly well. I will post some pics on my thread when I find them. My bigger Telefunkens were a different matter tho.
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