GARRARD 401 - Restoration thread!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt I - Am I nuts...

I've always wanted a 401 and after restoring a 301 I thought I'd have a crack at one of these. The resto must be easier than my Goldring G99 which over 2 years to finish. This 401 (39432) does have some problem with the paint work but that's pretty easy to fix and I can see I'm going to have fun stripping this down and getting a decent finish. This project is going to be a complete nuts and bolts restoration with everything being stripped and re-assembled, I'll be plonking this in a nice plinth and then comparing against my 301. I've already got a Phoenix Engineering Tachometer and PSU system organised so this will be completely stable to within 0.001 RPM!


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The mat and metal disc are looking a bit worse for wear but these are easy fixes. The grey top plate is shot and so are switches and legends :eek:.


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The wiring is the typical rats nest of crap! I'll be rewiring all this. I do know that the thing turns on and spins!!

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The deck should be showing up sometime next week, so as ever stay tuned! :cool:

[Bigman80]

Sweet Christmas thats a right state.

I enjoy your threads. Looking forward to it!

[brian2957]

Aye looking forward to this thread too . You don't half like to give yourself some work Andy :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thanks Gentlemen, should be a fun ride.

[Columbo]

I was looking at that. Can I ask how much it went for?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I was looking at that. Can I ask how much it went for?

Peanuts and fair words!!

[Primalsea]

These are solid machines. I’ve had mine for quite a few years and bear in mind how old it is all I’ve had to replace is the neon strobe lamp, the spring on the idler wheel armature and the idler wheel bearing. Runs dead smooth as well.

[Chas B]

The 401 is a lovely thing, really enjoy mine!

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt II - It's landed.

The 401 is now sitting unpacked in my office. It arrived late last night, it was extremely well packed but boy does it need some work. It's also got that just stored in a barn for twenty years smell, lovely. I will be fetching the thing home tomorrow so with a little luck I should have some better photo's. It already looks like the mat is a complete bin job. So, it looks like I'll be looking over the web for bits and pieces. The spare parts market for the Garrard's seems to be very heavily biased towards the 301. Ah, well, until next time.

Stay tuned.... :cool:

[brian2957]

Good luck Andy , and remember the piccies :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt III - Lets begin...

A bumper update tonight. So lets start with the platter mat.

The platter mat is quite a flimsy thing compared to the beefy 301 offering. My example was encrusted with 20 years of barn storage crap. Warm soapy water only gets you so far!


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The central metal disc had lost it's mojo and had actually fallen off. Heavily corroded and generally not looking very good.

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6 hours, yes SIX hours of elbow grease, wet and dry paper 60 all the way to 2500 grit and we end up with this.

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It's still not perfect and it does have some small scratches and pits but I'm keeping all the original parts. A new mat would have an easier option but I preferred to save the £60 for other bits the deck may need.

The bearing needed quite a lot of work. I removed small nuts, bolts, screws and gave them an ultrasonic clean.

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I then needed to dismantle the bearing.

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See Part IV

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt IV - Bearing up...


The thrust pad is showing typical wear. The paper gasket is in good condition but the felt ring which protects the top of the spindle is knackered. I have ordered replacement parts for these.

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The base of the spindle is showing signs of wear. The spindle will be going to Martin for a shaft polish and the base reground.

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I've polished the spindle head and removed all the corrosion that can be seem in the pictures in part 1.

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And this is what the cleaning fluid looks like after cleaning the bearing.

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The bearing will ultimately be going to Martin Bastin for polish and assessment. There are still parts of the bearing which need cleaning but that's for another session. I'm currently working on the platter but that's for another update!

[TAD12]

Hi, just sent a PM. Please advise if you wish to take further. Thank you.
T.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt V - Naked.

Lots of progress today. The platter is now fully restored. Last night it received several coats of primer and eventually I settled for a matt black outer rim finish. I had to then file away (very gently) the strobe markings and this took all morning! The platter mat is also fully restored I fixed the central metal disc in place with double sided 3M stick tape. The bearing is also party refurbished but if still needs some work doing to the screw and case to make it more cosmetically presentable. I'm awaiting a new thrust pad and paper gasket before it goes for a diamond polish to Martin Bastin. The 401's faceplate has also been refurbished. The faceplate is held onto the outer chassis by 6 small grub screws, needless to say they had rusted into place but with a little WD40 they eased free. I ultrasonically cleaned them and ground away and remnants of rust. The three main selector switches on the 401 needed some attention. The outer faceplates are badly corroded so I have ordered 3 of these and they should arrive next week and should very easily provide a quick cosmetic fix. I also took the time to clean the three copper mounting washers and ultrasonically cleaned and polished the three mounting screws. The three selector switches look as good as new. The faceplate also needed cleaning and this was achieved with a little diluted surgical spirit to cut through the grime. Cotton buds were used so as not to scratch the delicate chrome finish. The faceplate has suffered badly from corrosion so I have had to wet and dry it down to remove excess corrosion. I have had to order a new faceplate to replace the speed selector, on/off, and break speed markings. The "Garrard 401" writing on the right of the faceplate was sanded and primed it will be sprayed the Garrard grey colour.


The 401 is now completely broken down. Here is a shot of the Chassis, completely naked :stalks:. Next week's job is to strip this down to bare metal and get ready for priming. I've put all loose screw, nuts, bolts etc into loads of envelopes with copious notes detailing the correct parts sequences this has also been backed up with over 200 pictures to act as assembly guides. Finally the linkages, wiring loom and motor, all are waiting for refurbishment.


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And here's a quick picture of 20 hours worth of work, not much to show!! These are the completed bits. The faceplate will be resprayed and lacquered tomorrow.

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Well that's it for tonight. I'll be spending the rest of this evening looking for new springs and bit's for the motor. As ever, stay tuned! :cool:

[TAD12]

Excellent work, Andrew. You may know already, but you can look up any colour in a Pantone chart to get just the right shade of Garrard grey. Literally hundreds of shades to choose from. Thanks for the pm.
Tad.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Excellent work, Andrew. You may know already, but you can look up any colour in a Pantone chart to get just the right shade of Garrard grey. Literally hundreds of shades to choose from. Thanks for the pm.
Tad.

Thanks TAD. I'll be updating the thread soon.

[sph]

Nice work Andrew.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice work Andrew.

Thanks Sien, I might try your Garrard bearing on it for a but of experimentation.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt VI - All scrubbed up!

Another boat load of work done on the 401 today. The first picture shows the 401 as it is now. The chassis has been completely stripped, primed, painted and lacquered. It will be another 24 hours before I started bolting things back onto the chassis. The faceplate has been completely restored and the three switches have three new scratch free face plates. The strove light is missing and none of the linkages have been attached yet to the underside of the chassis.


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A little more work today on the bearing. The pic shows some of the new replacement parts. As you can see a new thrust pad, paper gasket and wool oil ring for the top of the bearing. The bearing still need some work. I will be yellow zinc plating at some point. The bearing casing needs some cleaning but otherwise it's nearly finished.


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I started work on the motor today. I removed all the e-clips holding the motor suspension in place. I also replaced all the motors springs with new parts and I recycled the motor spring rubbers. I cleaned them up and they look as good as new. I have replaced all the e-clips with new and I'm in the process of cleaning all the spring clips. I also scrubbed and cleaned the motor cage, it's now looking very clean indeed.

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I've also restored part of the idler wheel mechanism, check out these two photo's. A before and after shot. This took several hours of hard graft. I've also cleaned down the magnet holder and resurfaced the magnet in the idler wheel mechanism.



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The motor is a complete wreck at this moment and it still need further breaking down and repainting. The wire loom needs cleaning and the spark suppressor case is looking quite manky! There are also many components from the motor which need cleaning and rust removal and then re-plating. All in all good progress is being made and I'm hoping to get the motor finished by this time next week.

As ever stay tuned....... :cool:

[Shovel_Knight]

Looks great!

How did you transfer new decals to the faceplate?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Looks great!

How did you transfer new decals to the faceplate?

Thanks for your kind words, Pavel. I used a brand new face plate and no decals.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt VII - The most boring post of all time!

I've been busy. Here's my diary of progress so far :-

18/6/2019
- Motor chasis stripped, cleaned and polished.
- All motor tension springs replaced with new, old motor dampeners refurbished.
- All motor tension springs remounted, with all the E-clips to replace corroded e-clips.
- All motor tension spring pins ultrasonically cleaned and polished, now corrosion free.
- Magnet break mount cleaned and magner resurfaced.
- The chassis mounted cable tie holder with dismantled, ultrasonically cleaned, polished and then mounted onto the chassis.

19/6/2019
- Cleaned wire loom.
- Replace x2 wire ties that had perished.
- Cleaned and degreased motor case.
- Spray motor case matt black and then clear laquered.
- Power lead mount on brown motor board stripped, ultrasonically cleaned and polished.
- Spark supressor components checked and cleaned.
- Spark supressor casing cleaned, old holding tape removed and replaced.
- Strobe light dismantled, cleaned and reassembled.

20/6/2019
- Cleaned all earthing spades
- Removed old power lead cable from power supply housing.
- Power supply housing board cleaned.
- Power supply housing nuts and bolts stripped out, ultrasonically cleaned, polished, and resprayed when needed.
- Removed corrosion from top of idler brake spindle.
- Motor bolts cleaned, nuts polished and black washers resprayed.
- Replacement Idler wheel bushings and bearings purchased.
- Replacement motor bushings and felt pad resorvoirs purchased.

21/6/2019
- Degreased all linkages and gave them a primary clean and lubrication.
- Polished bearing case.
- Soaked bearing spindle, new thrust pad and wool washer in Martin Bastin oil for 24 hours.
- Replaced bearing spindle E-Clip with new one.

22/7/2019
- Dismantled and cleaned the idler wheel housing mechanism.
- Removed idler wheel bushes and installed new replacements.
- Resprayed idler wheel thrust plate.
- Cleaned idler wheel edge and polished idler wheel spindle.
- Started to soak new motor bushes and felts in oil for 24 hours.
- Fresh oil in new idler wheel bushes.
- Assembled the bearing for postage to be polished.

23/7/2019
- Resprayed platter break assembly.
- Ultrasonically cleaned, and polished strobe screws.
- Attached unit label.
- Ultrasonically cleaned and polished spark supressor screws, resprayed washers.

24/7/2019
- Ordered M6 threaded rod to start to make new mounting bolts.
- Resprayed mounting bolt e-clips
- Ordered m2.5 hex bolts to finish motor restoration.
- Polished mounting screws for motor frame
- Resprayed washes to mounting screws.
- Bearing mounted onto Garrard 401 chassis.

25/7/2019
- Reassembled the magnetic break together.
- Reattached the speed selector linkages.

26/7/2019
- Polished and removed corrosion from magnetic break linkages.
- Replaced springs in the break linkage.
- Re-assembled part of the motor cage.
- Polished corrosion away from transport screws.
- Replaced new E-Clips into transport screws.
- Reattached the transit clamping plate.

No pictures today. I'm hoping to get all the linkages attached and maybe even the motor rebuilt before the end of the week. I will post some pictures towards the end of the week!

Stay tuned....:cool:

[Alex_UK]

OMG - I thought mine needed work! (It clearly didn't.) Bravo, Andrew!

(PS - You might want to change the dates on the last few, unless you've got a DeLorean. :) )

[RobbieGong]

Thorough or what Andy ! Impressive stuf :thumbsup:

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt VIII - Nearly finished already!!

The 401 has been very quick in getting finished. I've included some more pictures to show the progress.

The linkages have been bolted on except the eddy break linkage which has been dismantled and packed away (see later in the post)!


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The motor has been completely rebuilt, stripped, repainted. Every component has been polished and ultrasonically cleaned. All solder has been replaced with 10% silver content. The motor received new bushes and felt oil pads from Audiosilente in Italy. It's also received new motor springs and dampeners. The motor has had a fresh oil change.

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Photo 3 just shows the 401 as it stands with the bearing installed.

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I've decided to get this 401 hot rodded so it's going to Martin Bastin. He's going to be tweaking and fine tuning. I will also be getting a Bastin Plinth which should also decouple the motor. Martin does a number of other mods which should improve the cabling, spark supressor, the bearing and a few other bits. The 401 will also be running a Phoenix Engineering PSU and Tachometer which should be modified to decrease the number of IEC and jacks. I have no idea how long this lot is going to take but it should be pretty cool. Then the really stuff starts as I get to compare against my stock standard Garrard 301!!! :yay:





OMG - I thought mine needed work! (It clearly didn't.) Bravo, Andrew!

(PS - You might want to change the dates on the last few, unless you've got a DeLorean. :) )


Thorough or what Andy ! Impressive stuf :thumbsup:


Thanks guys!

As ever stay tuned!!!! :cool:

[Mikeandvan]

Restoration is very satisfying, I should do my van sometime!

[A.Grail]

"I get to compare against my stock standard Garrard 301"

More detail, less pace. One was designed for MONO and had to be constantly tweaked during the production timeline to meet the demands of STEREO transcription. The other was engineered with all that was learned from these efforts (Sadly they missed out on the aesthetic joy of the 301). The 401 was in many ways thwarted by a struggling market position and subsequent buy out by Plessey who cut back on all peripherals and cosmetics in cost saving exercises.

[Wakefield Turntables]

"I get to compare against my stock standard Garrard 301"

More detail, less pace. One was designed for MONO and had to be constantly tweaked during the production timeline to meet the demands of STEREO transcription. The other was engineered with all that was learned from these efforts (Sadly they missed out on the aesthetic joy of the 301). The 401 was in many ways thwarted by a struggling market position and subsequent buy out by Plessey who cut back on all peripherals and cosmetics in cost saving exercises.

Should be fun when both are sitting next to each other.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt IX - Going on holiday to Ludlow!

This is a list of what's been done since the last update :-

- Replaced old platter break with new felt break pad.
- Replaced old motor dampening rubbers with new.
- Replaced x3 isolation grommets on idler wheel platform
- Decided to replace all three pivot bushes on linkages.
- Removed further corrosion from the cable retention spring.
- All solder joints in the 401 have been redone but this time with 10% silver solder from Audionote.
- All corroded wshers replaced for new yellow zinc plated washers.
- Motor springs have recieved new damping rubbers.

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This first picture shows ~66 old replaced components, altogether I've replaced 82 components in this deck, I've not included the pivot bushes for the linkages, the new fascia on the 401 nameplate and the new chrome covers for the selector switches, or the rivets in the idler wheel housing or motor. The second pictures shows the deck as it is now and I can no longer go any further it will now be driven down to Martin Bastin to get my work checked over, fine tuned and then ultimately re-plinthed in one of his plinths. I've heard that these plinths are not in the same league as the Cushworth plinths but one above the standard birch ply fare which populates eScum.
You will see that this 401 will be graced with a full Phoenix Engineering PSU + Tachometer. Platter stability will be rock steady between +/- 0.001-2 RPM. I have a few other goodies to try out like the beefed up SPH bearing and the the SPH 2.4kg platter mat.

There are further upgrades which could be tried for the 401 including the Audiosilente (AS) Eddy brake disc and replacement idler wheel. AS also produce replacement motor coils for the Garrard 301 but I have seen nothing for the 401 and I have no idea what improvements (if any) they would have over older motor coils. There are several thrust-pad upgrades. The Kokomo which is now on Mk 3, some claim it's ok, some claim it ruins the bearing. Some thrust pad "upgrades" rip-off Martin Bastin's idea's although they don't fully implement his full design. The restoration has been one of love and not financial gain. I could have bought better for the money I've invested but it's mine now and will remain in the collection. I will never sell.

Don't expect any upgrades now for a while as the deck is going on holiday and I'm not sure how long it's goiung to be away. But as ever, stay tuned.. :cool:

[Alex_UK]

Another great update Andrew, really does look like a labour of love!

Sent from my I3113 using Tapatalk

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another great update Andrew, really does look like a labour of love!

Sent from my I3113 using Tapatalk

Thanks Alex. The next update will be something special.

[Wakefield Turntables]

401 finished. Plinth being made. Nearly completed. Now excited. :eek:

[Wakefield Turntables]

One week and then the presentation of the restoration. Phew!!

[301]

Great thread, any update/photos on the finished 401?

[Made in 1968]

Hope its exciting & not like all the other same old same old we see, Been on a knife edge for nearly a year now

:D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Ok I will see what I can do tonight over a whiskey

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt X - Finally....

OK, so rather embarrassed I decided to take a few shots and write a little about the 401 project. So this is what it looks like.

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It has 2 arms. An Alphason HRS1000, silver rewired , this take care of MM cartridge duties. The second arm is the SME V-12 which takes care of MC cartridge duties. I've yet to order the Phasemation PP500, but I shall at the end of the month. Vinyl playing duties are being taken care of with either my Garrard 301 or Technics 1210. The plinth is a 25KG Martin Bastin birch ply construction. The Martin Bastin plinth enables 9" and 12" tonearm boards to be mounted quite easily. I've included a close up of the tonearm board for good reason.


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If you look closely you will see that the tonearm board design enables good coupling to the plinth. You'll also notice that you can add decoupling rubbers under the screws if you want and even bugger about with different tonearm board materials. I gave the 401 a new paint job. As you can see everything (and I mean everything) has been cleaned, polished, ultrasonically cleaned and re-assembled. The bearing is the original 401 but with Martin Bastin modifications (TOP SECRET)!!!


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If you look very carefully you'll notice that the screws holding the motor cage are missing. That's because we have decoupled the motor!


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Finally a quick shot showing complete speed stability at 33.3 RPM!

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The 401 is silent in operation. It sounds fantastic and has oodles more detail than the 301.

OK, that's it another resto complete!

[Made in 1968]

Andy why has it took a year to do that?

[RobbieGong]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt X - Finally....

OK, so rather embarrassed I decided to take a few shots and write a little about the 401 project. So this is what it looks like.

27476

It has 2 arms. An Alphason HRS1000, silver rewired , this take care of MM cartridge duties. The second arm is the SME V-12 which takes care of MC cartridge duties. I've yet to order the Phasemation PP500, but I shall at the end of the month. Vinyl playing duties are being taken care of with either my Garrard 301 or Technics 1210. The plinth is a 25KG Martin Bastin birch ply construction. The Martin Bastin plinth enables 9" and 12" tonearm boards to be mounted quite easily. I've included a close up of the tonearm board for good reason.


27477

If you look closely you will see that the tonearm board design enables good coupling to the plinth. You'll also notice that you can add decoupling rubbers under the screws if you want and even bugger about with different tonearm board materials. I gave the 401 a new paint job. As you can see everything (and I mean everything) has been cleaned, polished, ultrasonically cleaned and re-assembled. The bearing is the original 401 but with Martin Bastin modifications (TOP SECRET)!!!


27478


If you look very carefully you'll notice that the screws holding the motor cage are missing. That's because we have decoupled the motor!


27479


Finally a quick shot showing complete speed stability at 33.3 RPM!

27480

The 401 is silent in operation. It sounds fantastic and has oodles more detail than the 301.

OK, that's it another resto complete!

Well done that man ! :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andy why has it took a year to do that?

Apathy towards the hobby.

[Made in 1968]

Apathy towards the hobby.

That i can relate to.

[scotty38]

Nice plinth. Ant of BTE Designs built me something similar, including armboard, for my G99

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49080530282_50edc8ff28_h.jpg

[Marra]

I like the look of that.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well done that man ! :)

Thanks a lot.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice plinth. Ant of BTE Designs built me something similar, including armboard, for my G99

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49080530282_50edc8ff28_h.jpg

I've restored one of these as Well!

[Bigbird]

Just had a good old read through Andrew and it was fantastic to see the attention to detail and thoroughness you went to. I’m sure it’s paid dividends.

Did you end up using the SPH bearing at any point?

Ive got one here to compare with the new CTC brass offering but Ray seems to think that balls are a big no no in the bearing as they screw the spindle and pad over time? Any thoughts? Surely this would take years of normal usage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[struth]

Yeah lovely job

[Wakefield Turntables]

Just had a good old read through Andrew and it was fantastic to see the attention to detail and thoroughness you went to. I’m sure it’s paid dividends.

Did you end up using the SPH bearing at any point?

Ive got one here to compare with the new CTC brass offering but Ray seems to think that balls are a big no no in the bearing as they screw the spindle and pad over time? Any thoughts? Surely this would take years of normal usage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks very much Karl for your kind words. No I didn't use the SPH bearing although I still own one as a spare. The SPH is good but I think the modded Bastin Bearing bearing (to my ears) is better. I've not tried one of Ray's bearings even though he lives less than two miles from me!! I've heard conflicting opinions about each approach to Garrard bearings, but then you would wouldn't you. I suppose every party has an agenda and ultimately that's to sell a bearing. I have done a LOT of research into Garrard's probably too much! I've spoken to a lot of the current luminaries on the subject, these include Martin Bastin, Terry at Loricraft, Matt at Audiograil, and a few others. The overriding consent of opinion seems to be that the original Garrard bearing when fettled works best. I suppose you might need a larger bearing if your going for over sized platters but I doubt one man in a shed with a lathe will have spent as many man hours or pounds experimenting or listening than a paid laboratory full of staff and designers with infinitely more complex gear for the job. I suppose the big take away is trust your ears.


Yeah lovely job

Thanks Grant, appreciated.

[Bigbird]

Yeah that’s exactly what I thought to be honest.
I read that Ray said he’d done experiments with balls but after 1000-1500 hours or so they always damaged the spindle/thrust I’m sure my oversized platter and Tenuto would speed that up a touch as they are very heavy .
That amount of hours would equate to a few years worth of spinning for me so if I had to replace the bearing every few years I wouldn’t mind too much anyway.
What exactly does Martin do to the bearings to give such an improvement?

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yeah that’s exactly what I thought to be honest.
I read that Ray said he’d done experiments with balls but after 1000-1500 hours or so they always damaged the spindle/thrust I’m sure my oversized platter and Tenuto would speed that up a touch as they are very heavy .
That amount of hours would equate to a few years worth of spinning for me so if I had to replace the bearing every few years I wouldn’t mind too much anyway.
What exactly does Martin do to the bearings to give such an improvement?

Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Karl,

I'm not sure what Martin does with the bearing. Your bound to get some wear and tear on the thrust plate. I use my 401 2-3 hours every Sunday to listen to Jazz so thar's about 100-150 hours a year, so I'd be looking at taking 10 years to show some wear on my thrust plate if I went for the Kokomo design (the ball bearing mod). So, I'd buy three Kokono thrust plates and that would probably see me to my wooden box! :deceased:. I used a Tenuto and standard platter on my 301 for 5 years and never had any wear on the standard Garrard thrust plate. Thrust plate wear usually means scraping of the platter and a metallic sound when the platter is slowing down when you switch it off, so you could listen out for these noises if you do wear down your thrust plate.

[Bigbird]

Yes will do. All these thoughts are a long way off for me anyway . My deck is brand new and I have two bearings to see me through now but it’s just nice to speak to the men on the ground that have had experiences with such things to see if there is a general consensus . Cheers Andrew . I look forward to any more updates and thanks for the replies

Karl


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jimbo]

Another superb project completed Andy. I had a good read from start to finish this morning and I can see you have done a very thorough job again!

Well done and I am sure this deck will give you years of great analogue listening pleasure!

Could I ask how it compares to your Lenco GL75 and in terms of a restoration project was it easier to do?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another superb project completed Andy. I had a good read from start to finish this morning and I can see you have done a very thorough job again!

Well done and I am sure this deck will give you years of great analogue listening pleasure!

Could I ask how it compares to your Lenco GL75 and in terms of a restoration project was it easier to do?

Cheers Jim! I think I answered your question last night on the phone!!

[Jimbo]

Cheers Jim! I think I answered your question last night on the phone!!

You did indeed!

[dahdit]

Superb job Andrew and an excellent, informative and very generous thread. It has inspired me to get a 401 out of the loft and have a go at it myself. I bought it from a junk shop in the early 80's on a piece of plywood with a Neat tonearm. It hasn't been spun since apart from a half hearted attempt a few years ago to oil it in the right places more for preservation that anything else. It spins now though... after all those years!

When I can work out how to post pictures I'll start a thread. Thank you!

[RobbieGong]

Superb job Andrew and an excellent, informative and very generous thread. It has inspired me to get a 401 out of the loft and have a go at it myself. I bought it from a junk shop in the early 80's on a piece of plywood with a Neat tonearm. It hasn't been spun since apart from a half hearted attempt a few years ago to oil it in the right places more for preservation that anything else. It spins now though... after all those years!

When I can work out how to post pictures I'll start a thread. Thank you!


See post #14 here Steve https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?52863-Photobucket/page2

I was the same until Al provided this ever so useful and simple to follow post/guide:

(Btw - where it says sing, he means sign. Also when you copy the BBC code, only copy your name in that if you want your name to show, otherwise dont include your name in the copying)

[dahdit]

Thanks Robbie, does this work...

https://www.flickr.com/gp/88030672@N06/tJa3q7

[dahdit]

Hmmm... it looks from here that it doesn't. I'll keep trying!!

Sorry Andrew for trashing your most excellent thread. I'll experiment on my own thread!

[RobbieGong]

Thanks Robbie, does this work...

https://www.flickr.com/gp/88030672@N06/tJa3q7

I got a Flickr site link for logging in to Flickr ....

[dahdit]

Sorted now Robbie, thanks for your help.

[RobbieGong]

Sorted now Robbie, thanks for your help.

You're welcome, anytime

[Wakefield Turntables]

Superb job Andrew and an excellent, informative and very generous thread. It has inspired me to get a 401 out of the loft and have a go at it myself. I bought it from a junk shop in the early 80's on a piece of plywood with a Neat tonearm. It hasn't been spun since apart from a half hearted attempt a few years ago to oil it in the right places more for preservation that anything else. It spins now though... after all those years!

When I can work out how to post pictures I'll start a thread. Thank you!

Ah, that's pretty cool thanks, that's what the thread was about. Good luck with the resto.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XI - 3 Years and now we see some more updates..........

I've been tweaking my Garrard 301, again! And so I needed a TT to play my Jazz on Sundays, the 401 fitted the bill. It has been a long time since I did any work on the 401 and this post and a few others will hopefully update this thread and detail how my system sounds. I own three systems and currently I'm listening to System 3 (see my signature to see what's in it). I'm using system 3 because my SME 3012 is going on holiday upto Scotland for some surgery. Surgery is needed because the cartridge pins in the tonearm are stuck which is really common on these old SME's and as a consequence we have lost a channel which in this instance is the right channel. The 401 has replaced the Heybrook TT2 which I own and think is one of the best spring suspension TT's ever devised, it's good, but not as good as the 401. I'll post more tomorrow and some pictures......

Stay tuned...:cheers:

[Jimbo]

look forward to the pics and a continuation of this project Andy:cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thanks Jim, no-one seems to be posting anything like this anymore. A bit sad really!! :(

[Jimbo]

Thanks Jim, no-one seems to be posting anything like this anymore. A bit sad really!! :(

It is a bit thin on the ground for posts like this, but this is not the only forum that has gone a bit quiet. I think the great heyday of audio forum participation and enthusiasm is waning. Lots of folk now fall into the following categories.

1. Create interesting content and participate enthusiastically in forum content.
2. Occasionally add a comment.
3. Lurk and very rarely contribute anything.

I feel that the majority of folk on forums are now in category 3.

Maybe most folk are either very happy where they are or couldn't be bothered?:)

[Wakefield Turntables]

It is a bit thin on the ground for posts like this, but this is not the only forum that has gone a bit quiet. I think the great heyday of audio forum participation and enthusiasm is waning. Lots of folk now fall into the following categories.

1. Create interesting content and participate enthusiastically in forum content.
2. Occasionally add a comment.
3. Lurk and very rarely contribute anything.

I feel that the majority of folk on forums are now in category 3.

Maybe most folk are either very happy where they are or couldn't be bothered?:)

I try to be option one but admit to being too tired most nights to make any decent contributions!

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XII - System 3

I have added a few more photo's so that people can see what System 3 looks like. So, here it is in all it's glory.

https://i.ibb.co/7RbGvwd/IMG-0620.jpg

I really need to do more with the 401 as the Martin Bastin plinth is just sitting on top of the rack and not really being isolated from any of the vibration coming from any of the other components in the system. I do have some very thick Sorbothane in the garage, I'll be making some nice feet when I have a spare 30 minutes in the garage.

https://i.ibb.co/YTF2RJG/IMG-0621.jpg

The above picture shows a couple of upgrades. Firstly JICO SAS/S stylus for the SC35C and secondly a Panzerholz SME tonearm mount I made for the SME V-12, it's a bit rough and ready but fits perfectly and no-one see's the rough edges!!!

https://i.ibb.co/kDbdXXD/IMG-0623.jpg

Finally, not a very good shot but here's the JICO SAS/S fitted to the SC35C.

I have more things planned for this system so, as ever, stay tuned..... :cheers:

[Jimbo]

Great photos and update Andy:thumbsup:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Great photos and update Andy:thumbsup:

I thank-you very much.

[kirstysdad]

I very much regret selling mine...

[Wakefield Turntables]

I very much regret selling mine...

Find a knackered one like me and do it up!

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XIII - Not unlucky for some...

The 401 has been a mainstay of my collection for a good number of years now. Presently I'm having a kick-ass time experimenting with JICO stylii, this time it's the JICO SAS/B N447X stylus and it's a real stunner. I'm using this with my modded Shure M55E cartridge, this in itself will be going through a modification with a new Panzerholz body when it arrives from Germany. The new stylus has had about 5-7 hours usage and is nicely burning in, I'm having loads of fun trying different LP's which I haven't played for years. The 401 really is an amazing deck even though it's shunned by people who want an example of it's older brother the 301. Here's a quick picture of current 401 setup.

https://i.ibb.co/g4mVFB2/IMG-1117.jpg

And here is a close up of the JICO N447-X SAS/B stylus in the Shure M55E.

https://i.ibb.co/Jd8pFH6/IMG-1118.jpg

I'm still debating getting the SAS/R which would be the ultimate for the little Shure M55E, maybe one day! Stay tuned... :cool:

[mbic]

According to the Garrard Serial Number Decoder, it was made around June 1974. That makes it a late one.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thanks Michael, that's something I didn't know about my deck. I'm actually 9 months older than my deck! Talk about revisting your youth.

[mbic]

I have had my 401 since around 1970 when I was 20, I will be 74 this September! My 401 is in a Slateage skeletal plinth with a SME V and Denon DL 304.

[Jimbo]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XIII - Not unlucky for some...

The 401 has been a mainstay of my collection for a good number of years now. Presently I'm having a kick-ass time experimenting with JICO stylii, this time it's the JICO SAS/B N447X stylus and it's a real stunner. I'm using this with my modded Shure M55E cartridge, this in itself will be going through a modification with a new Panzerholz body when it arrives from Germany. The new stylus has had about 5-7 hours usage and is nicely burning in, I'm having loads of fun trying different LP's which I haven't played for years. The 401 really is an amazing deck even though it's shunned by people who want an example of it's older brother the 301. Here's a quick picture of current 401 setup.

https://i.ibb.co/g4mVFB2/IMG-1117.jpg

And here is a close up of the JICO N447-X SAS/B stylus in the Shure M55E.

https://i.ibb.co/Jd8pFH6/IMG-1118.jpg

I'm still debating getting the SAS/R which would be the ultimate for the little Shure M55E, maybe one day! Stay tuned... :cool:

Err what happened to your M55e Andy - is that a special edition!?:) SHURE would like to hear that combo and seriously considering the JICO N447-X SAS/B.

[Wakefield Turntables]

That is the M55E! I debodied it years ago after a recognised that the outer casing was massively resonant. I bought the Cocobola wood body from a chap in Germany who's still trading on eBay and will send stuff to the UK. I have had a Panzerholz body especially made for the M55E in a bid to further shield the M55E. The magnesium arm in the SME V-12 removes a lot of resonance getting into the cartridge, but we have a birch ply plinth and a decoupled motor which should also help. The Panzerholz body is just another mod to try and further reduce resonance.

[Jimbo]

That is the M55E! I debodied it years ago after a recognised that the outer casing was massively resonant. I bought the Cocobola wood body from a chap in Germany who's still trading on eBay and will send stuff to the UK. I have had a Panzerholz body especially made for the M55E in a bid to further shield the M55E. The magnesium arm in the SME V-12 removes a lot of resonance getting into the cartridge, but we have a birch ply plinth and a decoupled motor which should also help. The Panzerholz body is just another mod to try and further reduce resonance.

Nice one.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Jim, the chaps called Stanley Engineering Shop on eBay if you ever fancy a punt. He does all sorts of weird and wonderful woods, a tweakers delight.

[brian2957]

Can't leave nowt alone :lol:

Just as well some of us like to muck around with things and create interesting threads :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Can't leave nowt alone :lol:

Just as well some of us like to muck around with things and create interesting threads :)

It's funny you should say that because I have decided to keep my recent Lenco purchase stock and do a sensative restoration. I'm aiming to emulate how the deck would have performed back in 1973, then I'm going to do my reference Lenco and compare them to see how each upgrade works and what it brings to the table. This little experiment should keep me going for a good while yet.

[brian2957]

I'm in :)

[Jimbo]

It's funny you should say that because I have decided to keep my recent Lenco purchase stock and do a sensative restoration. I'm aiming to emulate how the deck would have performed back in 1973, then I'm going to do my reference Lenco and compare them to see how each upgrade works and what it brings to the table. This little experiment should keep me going for a good while yet.

That will be very interesting. I would like to something similar but with a PTP project.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XIV - Going all German!

Stanley Engineering in Germany have come through again for me! Thanks guys! Here is a picture of the newly installed Panzerholz body for my beloved M55E.

https://i.ibb.co/jH2DnKD/IMG-1162.jpg

I'll be installing this soon and shall be presenting a few notes about how it sounds over the next few days.

Stay tuned. ..

[Jimbo]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XIV - Going all German!

Stanley Engineering in Germany have come through again for me! Thanks guys! Here is a picture of the newly installed Panzerholz body for my beloved M55E.

https://i.ibb.co/jH2DnKD/IMG-1162.jpg

I'll be installing this soon and shall be presenting a few notes about how it sounds over the next few days.

Stay tuned. ..

Can you do a few pics of the installation Andy?

[Wakefield Turntables]

The hardest bit is to remove the plastic body from the Shure cartridge, but, as luck would have it, watch this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyPxDnptPPk

[Barry]

What is so special about Panzerholz over, say, ebony? Come to think of it, the first Koetsu cartridge had a rosewood body, so that would be an alternative.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Barry, years ago I managed to buy some scraps of Panzerholz. I made a two SME spacers for my 3009 and 3012 on my 301. All I can say is that things improved markedly. Panzerholz has excellent damping properties and has been used by many people with positive effects. I think Linn made a 50th anniversary LP12 with a Panzerholz plinth. I use Panzerholz for its damping properties but only in very specific areas. All my experiments have been based around damping key areas of the tonearm such as the tonearm/plinth and cartridge/tonearm interfaces. I've yet to be disappointed. All I can say is that I have been VERY pleased with the Panzerholz cartridge body for my M55E and it's taken this cartridge to another level. It's extremely rare that you'll hear me say something like that on a forum.
You could ask with Luthiers choose specific woods for specific reasons, I'm sure they could give a far more insightful answer than my wafflings. ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XV - Coming in song

I finally managed to find time to properly install the Panzerholz cartridge body for my hot rodded Shure M55E, and here she is.

https://i.ibb.co/7b4GNw7/IMG-1267.jpg

The Panzerholz body has really transformed this M55E and I have to say that the new body is as equally important as the JICO SAS/B stylus in making this vintage cartridge a giant killer. I've not switeched on my Garrard 301 now for five weeks and it has a cartridge costing many times that of the M55E even taking into account the cost of the modifications. This cartridge now surpasses the performance of a Ortofon 2M black cartridge and without all the messing around associated with set up of these cartridges. Musical seperation bewteen instruments is staggering. Detail is staggering. I'm extremely happy with this cartridge and the argument for a JICO SAS/R is now more than justified. I'm hoping to buy one at some this year and this should push performance even further. Installing the new body has not been without problems. I did have to increase the diameter of the screw hole shafts in the body by several mm's to accomodate my mounting screws but that was no big deal. So, the M55E is now sitting parallel with the record surface, loaded with 500pF of capacitance, tracks at 1.25g with 1.1g of bias applied. I would say that I've put about 10-15 hours on the cart now so not quite broken in but each hour is a true joy!

Stay tuned..... :cool:

[Jimbo]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XV - Coming in song

I finally managed to find time to properly install the Panzerholz cartridge body for my hot rodded Shure M55E, and here she is.

https://i.ibb.co/7b4GNw7/IMG-1267.jpg

The Panzerholz body has really transformed this M55E and I have to say that the new body is as equally important as the JICO SAS/B stylus in making this vintage cartridge a giant killer. I've not switeched on my Garrard 301 now for five weeks and it has a cartridge costing many times that of the M55E even taking into account the cost of the modifications. This cartridge now surpasses the performance of a Ortofon 2M black cartridge and without all the messing around associated with set up of these cartridges. Musical seperation bewteen instruments is staggering. Detail is staggering. I'm extremely happy with this cartridge and the argument for a JICO SAS/R is now more than justified. I'm hoping to buy one at some this year and this should push performance even further. Installing the new body has not been without problems. I did have to increase the diameter of the screw hole shafts in the body by several mm's to accomodate my mounting screws but that was no big deal. So, the M55E is now sitting parallel with the record surface, loaded with 500pF of capacitance, tracks at 1.25g with 1.1g of bias applied. I would say that I've put about 10-15 hours on the cart now so not quite broken in but each hour is a true joy!

Stay tuned..... :cool:

Just got to find £500 down the back of the sofa for the JICO SAS/R N44-7!:eek: Still a new 2M Black stylus is about £370 so only £130 more for the SAS/R. Might take a punt.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Jim, I'm running the SAS/B the N44-7 SAS/R is one of the very few Ruby based cantilever products that you can purchase from JICO let alone from anyone else. It's $500 but this converts to £395, not including import taxes etc, so maybe £500. I've started research into buying and running my ultimate vintage reference MM, let's say Ruby cantilevers will be part of the brew!

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XV - Back to the Future

Perhaps the most unpopular of the three Idler threads I update on a regular bases, but still fun to carry on messing around with the 401. Some of you may remember my "thing" for 1970's vintage MM carts. My long term fave has been a hot-rodded Shure M55E with lots of bling bolted on! I developed a very strong urge to try something else on the SME V-12 arm and after some careful consideration and a load of research I decided to hunt down the ADC ZLM, Stanton 881-S, or Grace F9 cartridges. I decided very quickly against another Shure cartridge, I have several and need a change from the Shure "house" sound. I made a decision to rule out the Technics EPC carts due to suspension worries. I short listed either a Grace or Stanton. The ADC ZLM seems to pop up every so often but a Stanton 881-S came up for sale in the UK at the right price, so who was I to say no?

The Grace F9 is something I can always try out and Soundsmith provide Ruby bases cantilevers, just like the originals. The Stanton just seemed to be the right choice, check out this table.

https://i.ibb.co/C1D3NqZ/STANTON-881-S-981-CS100.jpg

The Stanton 881-s has a history of being used in lots of mastering studios. It has >35db channel seperation and is specially checked due to it being in the upper ranks of the Stanton stables. I'm not that bothered about the 75u stereohydron stylii, I'll be getting this replaced with the FGS II which I think (if memory serves) is nearer to 100u, this will be mounted on a Ruby cantilever. I have also checked compatability with the SME V-12 and it looks like to be a very good match. The Stanton I purchased will be going on holiday to the US of A for a little "work" (no not plastic surgery). I have no idea what to expect, no idea how long it will take, in the mean time I have a Garrard 301 to keep my entertained.

Stay tuned....

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XVI - Stanton and deliver


My quest for the best MM cart for MY system continues and I have bolted the top of the range vintage Stanton 881-S carts to the SME V-12.




https://i.ibb.co/ZgmpGbY/IMG-1356.jpg

It's a bit Heath/Robinson but the thing has been bolted (Do you like my bolts?) to the SME V-12, I've had to mess around with VTA and add a few platter mats to get the things working so it looks like I'm going to have to fabricate a new base mount for the SME V-12 to lower the arm sufficiently to be able to correctly set VTA. I have paid very careful attention to cartridge/tonearm matching. The KORF blog compliance calculator is an excellent tool and I heartily recommend it. So, my acceleration at the headshell is 0.02g and the excursion at the headshell has given me a very small overshoot at under 5hz overall a very good match. The Shure M55E gave similar results but not quite as good as the Stanton. The stupid looking mounting screws were purely intentional as they happened to be the heaviest I own and as such helped lower the acceleration at the headshell more mass would have helped further.

The Stanton arrived last week a complete gamble, untested and I have no idea how many hours are on the stylus. All I can say is that this is a keeper and betters the M55E. I'm not going to write a review simply because the stylus status is an unknown variable. What I can say is that it produces thunderous bass, channel seperation is better than the old M55E, width and more importantly depth have markedly widened and deepened. This maybe down to the extra 13db of channel seperation. Output voltage is lower than the M55E but that does not seem to have much impact with this cart. I've loaded the Stanton with approx 200-250pf capacitance. I think the recommended is 275pf. I'm assuming the EAR 834 clone has about 100pf of Miller capaciatance and my cabling is another 100-125pf. I'm happy to have a little play around. VTF and VTA need some tweeking. I've set tracking force and bias at 1.1g. This thing is highly enjoyable and I recommend anyone with a thing for vintage MM's to try on out. It's the best MM I have heard and trumps my previous two faves, my hot rodded Shure M55E and the Ortofon 2MB. The Stanton will shortly be going on holiday to the US of A for some "work".

https://i.ibb.co/NLsP2DY/IMG-1354.jpg

This thing should sound stellar when I get it back. I'll then start my adventures with a Grace F9/Soundsmith combo, comparing the pair should be very much fun and probably take me into Xmas. As ever boys and girls stay tuned.

[Jimbo]

Wow that looks a piece of kit Andy, spectacular old school appearance but almost verging on hand made Japanese build!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep! Can't disagree with what your saying. I'm REALLY beginning to question just how far we've come with cart design. MM designs especially seem to have reached a pinnacle back in the 70's. MC designs seem to keep pushing boundries. I'm very happy with this on my deck.

[The Black Adder]

A friend of mine runs the 680hp I think. Sounds great in his system. Not sure what the difference is between his and yours but I can agree, they're still excellent carts even at today's standards

He has it on a 301, can't remember what arm though.

I'm looking into a classic MM for my deck at some point.

I remember the Goldring G820 which Marco recommend to me. That kicked ass.

Sent from my BBC Microcomputer 32K

[Wakefield Turntables]

A friend of mine runs the 680hp I think. Sounds great in his system. Not sure what the difference is between his and yours but I can agree, they're still excellent carts even at today's standards

He has it on a 301, can't remember what arm though.

I'm looking into a classic MM for my deck at some point.

I remember the Goldring G820 which Marco recommend to me. That kicked ass.

Sent from my BBC Microcomputer 32K

I'm not sure why but I seemed to have bypassed Goldring. It's not a snob thing, just not got around to trying one out yet. I very quickie excluded any of the Technics MM, especially the EPC range due to suspension problems. I've been informed that Stanton suspension are pretty bullet proof and to some extent is why I choose this. I would also like to try the ADC ZLM cart, forget the Starion which is of a very similar spec to the ZLM. The Grace F9 is next on the hit list, probably will start that adventure as a birthday pressie to myself. Need to send the 881-S away first for its holiday.

[The Black Adder]

Goldring do get over looked due to the hype of other carts. But they made some cracking carts. The g800 used Alinco magnets and were made to last. The only bother is the original stylus, for best results you need to have them retipped... NWA did mine. It was an excellent cart.

Sent from my BBC Microcomputer 32K

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes NWA! Differing results from differing people. Mines off to USA! Well known dude with a very very good reputation. I might do some research into goldring over the weekend

[Jimbo]

Yes NWA! Differing results from differing people. Mines off to USA! Well known dude with a very very good reputation. I might do some research into goldring over the weekend

Soundsmith?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Needlestein.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XVII - Clearing the attic out and lateral thinking....


I love the way that my systems develop, quite often by accident an idea pop's into my head, the seed roots and before you know it things sprout and grow. I decided that my audio collection needs to be thinned down and really only keep the stuff that I've lusted over, you only usually end up regretting selling something you covet and then spend years of fruitless searching to replace the thing you sold and pay more than the first time of purchase. So, I chucked an old plinth out and sorted out my Pheonix Engineering box of goodies, I own two Eagle and Roadrunner PSU/Tachometers, I understand that one may pack in so I bought a second set and keep it in storage for just such an occasion (hopefully will this never happen). My 401 has always taken a back seat to the 301, all my time an attention spent pushing the limits of the 301 and never really caring for the 401. The 401 was supposed to be the deck which superceded my 301 but never did.

The 301 has the benefit of tachometer speed control to to within 0.001 RPM, I can control voltage as well, but that's as far as things go. My 301 does not benefit from the Max Planck plinth installed on the 401 which means that it does not have the decoupled motor. Well, things have now changed. I've now plummed in my
Nigels Speed Controller NSC which I had built years ago for my Lenco 75 Reference project. OK, the NSC isn't as accurate as the Pheonix Engineering equipment and probably not as fancy as a Long Dog Audio PSU but it does work very well and makes the 401 work extremely well, especially when partnered with the Stanton 881S. The whole upgrade cost me NOTHING! I already had the NSC, I nicked the power lead from my Heybrook TT2 deck and found I had a long enough power cable to run from my PS Audio P10 into the NSC. The 401 used to be plugged straight into the National Grid and I would expect was prone to speed variations I've now got a steady 220V (+/- 0.1 to 0.2V) going into the 401 and a rock steady 51.89Hz controlling the speed of the 401. Things sound amazing. The weak link now with the 401 is the age and status of the Stanton 881S cartridge. It does sound amazing but I often wonder how far this could be pushed and will be sending this to USA soon for its "work". I'm now on the hunt for another Stanton cartridge and this is the Stanton 981HZ which tops the 881S :doh:. You can find a youtube video here comparing the two https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESASlB6lX4I&t=200s I would strongly subscribing to this channel if your an old MM geek like me. I will post some pictures up at some point of what the NSC looks like.

Stay tuned.....

[Jimbo]

I will take a look at that Youtube video as you have me very interested in these old Stantons.

Can I just ask what differences you heard with the 302/401 when you got better speed control?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Can I just ask what differences you heard with the 302/401 when you got better speed control?

Sure. I'm afraid it's some of the old Cliche's. But, I would say that soundtstage coherence and instrument placement is the primary improvement. You can also hear spatial improvements with width and depth of soundstage. Steady voltage delivery to these old idlers is very important as well. It's not that difficult to get 2-3% speed variations if the voltage and Hz are incorrectly delivered to the motor. The Stanton is an amazing cartridge for sure but I think tomorrow will be spent
looking into the Grace F9 family of cartridges, I fear that these could top the 881S that I own, not sure if the F9's would see off the Stanton 918HZ, i've not heard a Grace or the 981HZ I do keep looking!

[Jimbo]

I can imagine a very stable voltage would be needed in those old idlers. Thanks for the explanation around speed control improvements. It is an area I have not investigated fully myself although I do set my TT with a speed platter test record and tone test app. Getting better speed control would take something like the Phoenix engineering kit you have which I believe has now stopped production?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep the Pheonix kit stop production ages ago I think one of the big companies bought his technology, it might have even been VPI altough I wouldn't quote me on that. A Nigels Speed Controller is probably the best way forward. It's a DIY solution which produces great results and can be configured to control various speeds without the need of a Tachometer/Magnet and seperate power supply like the Pheonix. You need to start haunting Lenco Heaven and see if someone is selling one or will make you one.

[Barry]

....

The Stanton is an amazing cartridge for sure but I think tomorrow will be spent
looking into the Grace F9 family of cartridges, I fear that these could top the 881S that I own, not sure if the F9's would see off the Stanton 918HZ, i've not heard a Grace or the 981HZ I do keep looking!
How are you getting on with your search Andrew? You might be interested in my experience with a Grace F14/F9 hybrid cartridge combination. I reported it under the uncharacteristically, for me, thread title: "Thoroughly pissed off". You will find out why if you read the thread and also follow the link to the article I wrote for AIHFA.

[Wakefield Turntables]

PLEASE SEND ME A LINK, sorry for the capitals.

[Wakefield Turntables]

http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/13/07/2012/living-with-a-chimera-the-grace-f-14brmr-cartridge/

Is this it?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Barry, I will bow out tonight it's been a very very long day, I'll have a look at this tomorrow and get back in contact.

[Patrick Dixon]

A Nigels Speed Controller is probably the best way forward. It's a DIY solution which produces great results and can be configured to control various speeds without the need of a Tachometer/Magnet and separate power supply like the Pheonix. You need to start haunting Lenco Heaven and see if someone is selling one or will make you one.

I've built a couple of NSCs. They use a chip to generate an accurate sine wave which is then amplified up to mains voltage levels using an amplifier chip and a transformer. They are quite easy to make although the box design is up to you. There are numerous examples of different builds on Lenco Heaven and Nigel gives excellent support on the forum should you require it. The chip seems to be widely faked (or possibly there are faulty batches out there) but I think you can buy the pcb and a 'verified' good chip as a package. Availability varies as batches are made and sold.

UK mains frequencies are pretty accurate so I guess the improvements would be in the stability of the motor supply voltage and that the supply is balanced (ie both live and neutral are opposing AC voltage waveforms rather than just an AC live and pseudo-ground neutral as you would have with a direct mains supply). You also have the ability to vary the frequency and the voltage level so you can tune the motor's speed and vibration levels a bit.

I doubt the Garrard motors are that responsive to supply frequency changes, so I'm not sure if the Phoenix feedback approach is a fundamental improvement, but since it's not available it's probably moot anyway.

I added a NSC to my grease bearing 301 and was surprised by how much difference it made, but I tried one on a friend's 401 at his house and felt the difference was slight - so it might depend on your mains supply, or deck, or numerous other factors.

[Barry]

Barry, I will bow out tonight it's been a very very long day, I'll have a look at this tomorrow and get back in contact.

Hi Andrew,

Here is the link to my thread on AoS:

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?13799-Thoroughly-%93pissed-off%94&highlight=pissed+off

If you look on the second page you will see the link to the version I wrote for Neil's AIHFA web site.

[Barry]

http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/13/07/2012/living-with-a-chimera-the-grace-f-14brmr-cartridge/

Is this it?

Yes, but sadly Photobucket have deleted some of the images.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XVIII - Bus!


Been a while since I updated the 401 thread. I did a small update on the 401 in the 301 thread (yep weired). Anyway, the 401 is now controlled with a Nigel's Speed Controller (NSC), it's the best but it has been tweaked to give better than stock speed control when using it with a 401, thanks the Arkless Electronics (remember Jez)?

https://i.ibb.co/z8yZv5T/IMG-1399.jpg

The 401 now has a decoupled motor and benefits from voltage and Voltage Hz control going into the motor. It sounds very good indeed but the whole point of this post was to discuss cartridges. So, I've been wanting a Grace F9 with Ruby Cantilever and super swanky diamond profile that
benefits such a beast. Well just like a bus you don't see one for ages and then several arrive all at once. So, I've been offered two, one for a very low double digit price in Euro's and another that's half way across the globe with only 100 hours usage, que big red flag. So, the second offer comes from someone who I've never heard from before, it's a very long way away and I have no idea of the exact status of the cantilever or stylus :wowzer:. The idea of being screwed over for my hard earned cash and never getting the cartridge is playing around in my head. So, I think I'll take a chance and maybe loose less than £100 with my first offer from a known forum member. My third option is to get one from Japan over the eBay, the cost would probably be pushed to over £500 once import duties, taxes and postage are included, so I will pass on that as well. I will be getting Stylus from SoundSmith over in the states, so I'm hoping for a Grace F9 with new stylus for <£400, maybe even less. It could be my birthday pressie and form a nice project to play around with over Xmas.

Now, vintage MM's are all well and good but you always learn about some mythical unicorn, I learned about two last week, mainly the Grace F19 and the Stanton 981HZ both of which offer better specs and further upgrades over my percieved top of the range MM's in the Stanton 881S and the Grace F9. So, I shall keep and eye out for both, it may be that I can't get new Stylii for these like I can for the 881 and the F9, so these two new unicorns may have to go on the rejects list. As ever, stay tuned.....

[Jimbo]

I will be watching this one closely Andy as I would definitely like to try something a bit different. The Stanton 881S vs Grace 9 could be an interesting bake off!?

[Barry]

My money would be on the Grace F9E, if fitted with an original stylus. With an aftermarket stylus from someone else it's anyone's guess.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XIX - Stacking Up!


Teeny, weeny update tonight. I managed to borrow some Stack Audio footers, I have nothing else to do this weekend so will probably try these under the 401 and see how they perform. Could be interesting!

Stay tuned!!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XX - Vintage MM shoot out

Thanks to a fellow forum member (CHEERS LURCH) I was given the oppotunity to strap the venerable A&R P77 onto the 401/SME V-12 combo. This is a cartridge that I'd been wanting to try for quite some time but never seemed to get around to buying one so when the oppotunity came along to try I jumped at the chance. This isn't the most expensive of cartridges that I have tried and it's by no means the most exotic either but it has pretty decent specs and was a decent match for the SME V-12. This is perhaps one of the most genre specific carts I have ever heard. I didn't like Jazz with this cart but weirdly it could do Bach! Bass on this cart is massive perhaps one of the best I've heard from a MM cart so it works very well playing heavy rock / metal. I'm listening to Helloween, ok not the most heavy of music but still quite bass heavy and the P77 is lapping it up! Very enjoyable. :fingers:. Soundstage is wide but not deep. This cart is not the most accurate with timbral decay or reproduction but I'm really nit picking here. I'm still playing around with the P77, I feel that I won't unlock it's true potential. It looks like it could be improved with a more modern stylus profile, maybe something from Garratt brothers or JICO, maybe that's for another day?


https://i.ibb.co/9Y7PCJB/IMG-1609.jpg

So just for a bit of fun I thought that I'd do a chart of the MM's I've listened to this year. Now, lets take things into contect here. The P77 is only in 5th place because I've been spoiled by some carts with amazing specs, cantilevers, and weird diamond profiles! This P77 has none of these but it does not disgrace itself.

FAVE MM'S
----------------
1. Grace F9E - Original Ruby cantilever
2. Ortofon 2M Black
2. Shure M55 + JICO SAS/S stylus
3. Stanton 881S
4. Shure SC35C + JICO SAS/B Stylus
5. A&R P77

[Jimbo]

The Garrard 401 (39432) Restoration Pt XX - Vintage MM shoot out

Thanks to a fellow forum member (CHEERS LURCH) I was given the oppotunity to strap the venerable A&R P77 onto the 401/SME V-12 combo. This is a cartridge that I'd been wanting to try for quite some time but never seemed to get around to buying one so when the oppotunity came along to try I jumped at the chance. This isn't the most expensive of cartridges that I have tried and it's by no means the most exotic either but it has pretty decent specs and was a decent match for the SME V-12. This is perhaps one of the most genre specific carts I have ever heard. I didn't like Jazz with this cart but weirdly it could do Bach! Bass on this cart is massive perhaps one of the best I've heard from a MM cart so it works very well playing heavy rock / metal. I'm listening to Helloween, ok not the most heavy of music but still quite bass heavy and the P77 is lapping it up! Very enjoyable. :fingers:. Soundstage is wide but not deep. This cart is not the most accurate with timbral decay or reproduction but I'm really nit picking here. I'm still playing around with the P77, I feel that I won't unlock it's true potential. It looks like it could be improved with a more modern stylus profile, maybe something from Garratt brothers or JICO, maybe that's for another day?


https://i.ibb.co/9Y7PCJB/IMG-1609.jpg

So just for a bit of fun I thought that I'd do a chart of the MM's I've listened to this year. Now, lets take things into contect here. The P77 is only in 5th place because I've been spoiled by some carts with amazing specs, cantilevers, and weird diamond profiles! This P77 has none of these but it does not disgrace itself.

FAVE MM'S
----------------
1. Grace F9E - Original Ruby cantilever
2. Ortofon 2M Black
2. Shure M55 + JICO SAS/S stylus
3. Stanton 881S
4. Shure SC35C + JICO SAS/B Stylus
5. A&R P77

Very impressive list Andy and I can certainly agree with a couple on there.

What differences are there between the Grace 9E and Stanton 881S in sound?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I will answer this in greater detail tonight, but, this might prove interesting. It's a shoot out between two of stantons top vintage MM's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESASlB6lX4I&t=205s


(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESASlB6lX4I&t=205s)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Very impressive list Andy and I can certainly agree with a couple on there.

What differences are there between the Grace 9E and Stanton 881S in sound?

Hi Jim, the differences are quite subtle. Both carts are excellent. The Stanton 881S is slightly below the 981HZS which is a slightly fine tuned version for the low mass arms of the time, the SME 3009 being a good match for this one. You can compare the two Stantons here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESASlB6lX4I&t=205s The Grace (to my ears) is the better cart, wider and deeper soundstage, it's great at timbral detail, it has a fine outout of 5mv which is better than the two Stanton's. I've always preferred carts which verge on the slightly high 5-7mv range, I remember trying the Shure M44 with I think ?9mV? which was simply too much in my system. Too much mV output swamps my system and not enough mV output from the cartridge lessen detail retrieval. I'm a big fan of Sapphire or Ruby cantilevers and I like a diamond profile which covers as much surface area as possible in the grooves. Good tonearm compliance matching and the cartridge being able to see the right amount of impedance also helps. The Grace has all these characteristics and works very well with my kit. Both the 881S and the Grace F9E are excellent top range cartridges, the Grace surpassing the Ortofon 2M Black. Imagine all the characteristics of the 2M and then add greater width and depth of soundstage, something which is far easier to setup and then the real kicker VERY LITTLE SURFACE NOISE! I love Ortofon carts, God knows I have enough of them (6 at last count) but I do not like the horrid setup routine associated with the "Black" range or the Black's Achilles heel, the dreaded surface noise. I now own a cartridge where I don't have to compromise surface noise for excellent data retrieval, the irony of all this is that the Grace F9E has a blacker background than the 2M Black :lol:. I'll not be buying a 2M black in the future, it's that good. The Grace F9E is not as optimally setup as I woud like on my SME V-12. The SME 3009 is the better arm for this cart but I just can't be bothered unhooking something which already sounds excellent on the V12 to then fiddle around with on the 3009. Maybe one day when I'm bored I'll give it a good, presently it can stay on the V-12 and work as my reference MM.

PS I thought you might like this graphic for your M55E

https://i.ibb.co/0mwHm2z/shurem44m55.jpg

[Chas B]

Another question Andy re. the Jico on your SC35C. Is it worth doing? I have the cart but wonder if adding the Jico is sensible, after all it's not cheap and one can buy a nice MM for that sort of money.

[Jimbo]

Excellent info there Andy, I agree the output of the M55e can be a bit too much especially when used with the Croft!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi Charlie, thanks for the question. I'll give you a complete honest answer. The answer is NO. I did the SC35C thing some time back and to be honest it was partly because I thought the SC35C would be better due it's broadcast heritage and also a bit of FOMO as quite a few people were going down that route at the time. Now, a lot of time has passed and water under the bridge (you get the idea ;)) and I look at MM's differently now compared to then. I now do a lot of research into potential MM purchases, I think the best piece of advice I can give to you is for you to learn and define the characteristics you like in vintage MM's and then seek a cartridge with these characteristics. Have you ever tried a Shure M55? I'd personally give one a whirl with a new wooden body. You will then have a very versatile MM which can play any manor of vinyl, MONO, 78'S, Stereo. Loads of people produce excellent quality aftermarket styli for these carts. You could then progress onto a JICO stylus for the M55 if you like what you hear. The SC35C, in my opinion was a fine cartridge but just didn't have the fun or boogie factor compared to a well sorted M55. I worship my M55E and would never ever sell it. In fact here's a picture on mine. It's the far right cartridge, it's slightly pimped :eyebrows: with a Panzerholz body and a MONO stylus. You can even buy a stylii to match your tonearm mass and to some extent control mV output to your phonostage. Check out my graphic in my last post. I would probably not go above 7mV if I were you!! As you can see the SC35C is nowhere to be seen. My M55E does have a fancy SAS/B stylus with top of the line diamond profile from JICO and it has this because my M55E is a keeper whilst the SC35C is a backup-backup-backup-backup cartridge at best. I'm sorry if this has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons. :goodluck:

https://i.ibb.co/kcK9wd2/IMG-1573.jpg

[Jimbo]

I really need to try a Grace but don’t think they are easily available :scratch:

[Wakefield Turntables]

I really need to try a Grace but don’t think they are easily available :scratch:

They are easily found. Just ask around the various Forum, I got lucky on Lenco Heaven. You can also do an ebay search from some of the Japanese sellers on eBay 2Juki springs to mind, he has an excellent track record. There are 29 results on eBay right now for Grace F9. Ruby cantilever and correct diamond profile stylus is available from Soundsmith.

[Jimbo]

They are easily found. Just ask around the various Forum, I got lucky on Lenco Heaven. You can also do an ebay search from some of the Japanese sellers on eBay 2Juki springs to mind, he has an excellent track record. There are 29 results on eBay right now for Grace F9. Ruby cantilever and correct diamond profile stylus is available from Soundsmith.

Cheers Andy I will take a look. Sorry it was the Stanton that was difficult to get hold of.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep Stanton's are pretty hard to find. Mine's in need of a new stylii otherwise I would have sent it to you, mine had an accident a couple of weeks ago :doh: As an aside Australia is a good hunting ground for anything Japanese, I've bought a few things from Oz with respects to Japanese exotica.

[Jimbo]

Yep Stanton's are pretty hard to find. Mine's in need of a new stylii otherwise I would have sent it to you, mine had an accident a couple of weeks ago :doh: As an aside Australia is a good hunting ground for anything Japanese, I've bought a few things from Oz with respects to Japanese exotica.

Funny I sold my Jico SAS stylus to a chap in Oz.

[Chas B]

Andy, thank you for taking the time to give such a full answer to my question. Very helpful.