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Mike_New
21-05-2010, 04:09
Hi Folks,
Rather than high jack the present thread in which I have posted some details of the new platter, I thought that it would be more appropriate to start another one which caters for those specific people who are interested in the new platter.

I have included an image of what is now the agreed production design. The black band around the periphery is the anti-resonance Neoprene ring. You can see the two holes for lifting bolts now included. These have been threaded 8mm and I would suggest that all is need is to fit two 8mm x 35mm socket head bolts. The holes are threaded 12mm deep for adequate lifting security. The top surface of the platter is 300mm in diameter.
The platter shown weighs 11.5lbs and sits 1mm higher than the standard one, although this will vary from deck to deck. This unit is destined for a Canadian customer.

The design assumes that the customer will need to swap out his magnet assembly into the new platter. This is very straight forward as an 8 pole pulse generator ring has been fitted to the platter and pre-aligned for correct rotation direction and phasing.

The new platter assumes the use of an external power supply as the existing transformer and power board will fowl it. Also you will require to increase the braking power by adjusting the pot. On my test rig the platter stops in ¾ of a turn from 45rpm, not bad eh!!

DSJR
21-05-2010, 07:07
Love the SL110/1100-esque profile..

Mike, can you not investigate the possibility of an SP10 style deck plate, to which the entire drive system can be transferred. A shame that Technics won't suply the motor unit as an OEM item.

Mike_New
21-05-2010, 08:42
DSJR,
I am currently in the process of designing a totally new plinth for the SL1200.
Into which all the bits will be transplanted. This will provide an upgrade path from the new bearing and platter to a completely new deck!! also Dave has sugested that I provide for 12" arms The exisitng drive board will just slot into place.

Marco
21-05-2010, 09:12
Hi Mike,

Excellent stuff, and good idea to start a new thread :)


The design assumes that the customer will need to swap out his magnet assembly into the new platter. This is very straight forward as an 8 pole pulse generator ring has been fitted to the platter and pre-aligned for correct rotation direction and phasing.

Also you will require to increase the braking power by adjusting the pot.


As I thought all that needed doing was to swap one platter for the other (presuming the use of a quality external PSU), you'll need to explain exactly how to do the above, as I've never ventured near the internals of my deck and don't have a scooby-doo what to do.

What is the "magnet assembly" and what does it look like? :scratch:

Could you possibly post some pictures with arrows pointing at the bits you're taking about and where this pot is that controls the braking speed, and how you access it all?

Remember you're talking to a complete 'dunce' as far as this sort of stuff is concerned so please make it entirely obvious and easy to understand!

I think it would also be good to supply some instructions of how to do this along with every platter supplied, if you haven't done so already :)

Marco.

Gdg
21-05-2010, 09:20
Hi Mike,

Excellent stuff, and good idea to start a new thread :)



As I thought all that needed doing was to swap one platter for the other (presuming the use of a quality external PSU), you'll need to explain exactly how to do the above, as I've never ventured near the internals of my deck and don't have a scooby-doo what to do.

What is the "magnet assembly" and what does it look like? :scratch:

Could you possibly post some pictures with arrows pointing at the bits you're taking about and where this pot is that controls the braking speed, and how you access it all?

Remember you're talking to a complete 'dunce' as far as this sort of stuff is concerned so please make it entirely obvious and easy to understand!

I think it would also be good to supply some instructions of how to do this along with every platter supplied, if you haven't done so already :)

Marco.

Very easy Marco, three screws under the platter, inside the magnet.
You can see here (1st pic)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=56374&postcount=48

The Vinyl Adventure
21-05-2010, 09:44
yeah even i can do that without messing it up marco, its very easy

Mike_New
21-05-2010, 10:10
Marco,
I would have liked to offer the complete platter assembly however the magnets are unobtainable. They are 16 radial pole isotropic magnets and are very expensive to manufacture in any quantity under 5,000.

Full instructions will be provided with every unit.
The braking control pot is well known about by most SL1200 gurus. and is described in the technical manual.

I have had to machine and supply the position pulse generator as this controls the motor rotation (incorrect positioning will make the platter rotate in reverse!!) A red dot on the inside of the magnet cavity serves to corectly position the magnet.

Marco
21-05-2010, 10:18
Hamish/Giovanni,

Mmm... Seems easy enough, but I think I'd rather watch someone else doing it first, so I can see it for myself. Sorry, that's just the way I am! :rolleyes:

:)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
21-05-2010, 10:22
Blimey marco grow some balls ;)
it's a lot more fun owning a techie if you know the thing inside out (even if that has meant you have broken it a couple of times :doh: :)

Marco
21-05-2010, 10:30
Hi Mike,


Marco,
I would have liked to offer the complete platter assembly however the magnets are unobtainable. They are 16 radial pole isotropic magnets and are very expensive to manufacture in any quantity under 5,000.

Full instructions will be provided with every unit.
The braking control pot is well known about by most SL1200 gurus. and is described in the technical manual.

I have had to machine and supply the position pulse generator as this controls the motor rotation (incorrect positioning will make the platter rotate in reverse!!) A red dot on the inside of the magnet cavity serves to corectly position the magnet.

Thanks for that, Mike - much appreciated :)

Marco.

Marco
21-05-2010, 12:44
Blimey marco grow some balls ;)


Lol! I know, I know....

But I'm always very nervous about tampering with things I don't understand - even when it's in a very minimal way. If I f*cked up anything I'd be SERIOUSLY pissed off (I wouldn't be able to take it on the chin like you do), so I always play it safe with these things!

I'm not at all interested in knowing the 'workings' of the deck (my mind just doesn't operate that way); merely in listening to improved sound from my favourite music :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
21-05-2010, 13:31
It is a refreshing change to see that horrid Techy platter gone for a plain platter but i feel the 11.5Lbs is very heavy compared to the original.

Marco
21-05-2010, 15:39
I've never liked it either, TBH... Mike's platter, apart from no doubt improving performance, will do away with the strobe markings and make it look less like a DJ deck :)

Marco.

DSJR
21-05-2010, 16:43
Not a 1200, but close enough I think...

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0460.jpg

Rare Bird
21-05-2010, 16:52
I've never liked it either, TBH... Mike's platter, apart from no doubt improving performance, will do away with the strobe markings and make it look less like a DJ deck :)

Marco.

I was thinking about the extra stress on start up.compared to the lighter techy platter

DSJR
21-05-2010, 16:56
You HAVE to fit the better bearing Andre, as far as I'm aware. By all reports, the bearing improves the standard platter, so should be done first. The superior engineering of the bearing should more than happily take an 11.5lb platter with ease - an LP12 platter assembly isn't hugely lighter IIRC. My Mentor platter was 80lb plus as I recall and the substantial bearing in that showed no wear at all after a few years daily use...

I doubt the electronics of the Techie motor would bother TBH. This motor unit was grafted into cutting lathes at one point, because they were so capable and, as far as I'm aware, a cutting lathe platter is *considerably* heavier than the Mike new platter :)

Rare Bird
21-05-2010, 17:11
Lol! I know, I know....

But I'm always very nervous about tampering with things I don't understand - even when it's in a very minimal way. If I f*cked up anything I'd be SERIOUSLY pissed off (I wouldn't be able to take it on the chin like you do), so I always play it safe with these things!

I'm not at all interested in knowing the 'workings' of the deck (my mind just doesn't operate that way); merely in listening to improved sound from my favourite music :cool:

Marco.

One thing to take into consideration that i learned in the past is you can easily sink serious big money into a deck that can vastly outprice it's used value, in which case you could also by a better deck for the same outlay you spent in the long run, also you can easily transform a deck into something it isnt anymore, it's a whole new turntable.

I'm being very very carefull this time in not going crazy.

DSJR
21-05-2010, 17:30
It looks as though Mike New will end up with a totally new turntable at least as good as the SP10 at its best and possibly better.

The thing is, the donor deck ain't bad in standard trim with original arm, but bit by bit, and finishing with the new deck-plate/plinth, you'll have a truly top class model.

In the meantime, I'll stay as a NAS fan.. :lol:

colinB
21-05-2010, 17:35
Interesting point. Jimmy hughes wrote in hi fi choice this month about the LP 12 mods available that change the deck into something that sounds completely differnt to the original deck.

MartinT
21-05-2010, 19:44
Now that I have a Copper mat on my 1210, which is pretty damned heavy too (1.7kg), the platter is completely dead. No ringing at all, even before the Herbies mat is placed on top. I have the Mike New bearing in place, too.

I will be very interested to compare my deck with one containing the new platter.

Tarzan
21-05-2010, 20:28
Interesting Matrin, did you have the Herbies mat before the copper mat, and do you have the external PSU to go with the copper mat?:)

leo
21-05-2010, 21:06
Hamish/Giovanni,

Mmm... Seems easy enough, but I think I'd rather watch someone else doing it first, so I can see it for myself. Sorry, that's just the way I am! :rolleyes:

:)

Marco.

I'm sure somebody could post pics and a few details with the fitting, it would be nice to see and helpful for others too

Having plenty of detailed pics attracts more interest anyway imo:)

The Grand Wazoo
21-05-2010, 21:07
A video on you Tube would do it

Rare Bird
21-05-2010, 21:34
Does anyone know the actual weight of an original Techy platter?

MartinT
21-05-2010, 21:39
Interesting Matrin, did you have the Herbies mat before the copper mat, and do you have the external PSU to go with the copper mat?:)

Yes, I had the Herbies mat first. It does a good job of damping the Techie platter, but the Copper mat makes it completely inert. I have the external Timestep PSU.

Mike_New
21-05-2010, 23:36
ANDRE,
Your concerns about over stressing the motor are ill founded. The motor is sufficiently capable of driving a 14lb platter. As I said earlier the motor can stop the new platter in 3/4 of a turn from 45rpm. (using Dave's older Power Supply) Starting may take a fraction of a second more but then we are not in the DJ business are we?

In fact I am talking to a number of folks from 'The Secret Society of Lathe Trolls' a web site dedicated to those people who directly cut Vynal.
Many of whom use the SL1200 model and require a much heavier platter.

DSJR,
The images you posted would appear to be of the SL1500, This TT has a different mechanical arrangment to the SL1200MKxx models. The coil assembly is separate from the motor drive board, and the bearing housing is different. Also the control cirduitry is somewhat less sofisticated in it's design for very fine speed control.
Remove the bearing/coil unit and check to see if the bearing housing is the same as the standard SL1200. The ring magnet on the platter also differs from the SL1200.

In fact the SL1200 represents a refinement in manufacturing methodology over the SL1500, in that savings were obtained by making the drive coil and main board all one piece component.

Marco
21-05-2010, 23:41
Hi Mike,


The motor is sufficiently capable of driving a 14lb platter.


I've no doubt you're right, but how did you come to this conclusion, i.e. based on what data? :)

Marco.

chris@panteg
22-05-2010, 00:17
Yes, I had the Herbies mat first. It does a good job of damping the Techie platter, but the Copper mat makes it completely inert. I have the external Timestep PSU.

Hi Martin

How would you describe the improvement , with the copper mat ?

Mike_New
22-05-2010, 00:50
Marco,
I stated 14lbs as a rough guide based on the fact that I ran one of the platter blanks, fitted with centre boss but withaout any other machining, This particular one weighed about 13.5lbs. There was no apparent motor drive problems and it held the usual rock solid speed control as viewed on a strobe disc.

MartinT
22-05-2010, 06:17
How would you describe the improvement , with the copper mat ?

Hi Chris

It's difficult for me to separate the Copper mat's performance because, without it, my arm won't quite go low enough to set accurate VTA. What I can say is that the arm + mat combination gave me a huge step up the 'realistic' ladder, portraying the soundstage and musicians in a very natural way with no tonal colouration and greatly expanded dynamic range.

If Mike's platter does the same thing then it's going to be a winner.

DSJR
22-05-2010, 08:50
Hi Mike,

I only posted the pics as a rough visual guide for Marco, who spends more time listening to music via his deck than taking it apart to see how it works.. :lol:

The 1500/150 mk1 motor unit was a much earlier simplification of the SL110/120 motor and has much lower torque, although there's no servo overshoot and with the stock platter and mat, no slowing under load as measured by HIFI Choice at the time on the SL1700.

TBH, I think the instant start and stop was seen as a bit of a gimick in the domestic market at the time, although it's comong into its own now.

Good luck with the platter.

chris@panteg
22-05-2010, 15:51
Hi Chris

It's difficult for me to separate the Copper mat's performance because, without it, my arm won't quite go low enough to set accurate VTA. What I can say is that the arm + mat combination gave me a huge step up the 'realistic' ladder, portraying the soundstage and musicians in a very natural way with no tonal colouration and greatly expanded dynamic range.

If Mike's platter does the same thing then it's going to be a winner.

Thanks Martin .

Hi Mike

As i understand it then there is no need to change the psu to the HE version ? .

Marco
22-05-2010, 16:06
I only posted the pics as a rough visual guide for Marco, who spends more time listening to music via his deck than taking it apart to see how it works.. :lol:


'Tis true, dafty-boy - I care not a jot about the latter. I let my 'chosen people' worry about that bollocks :)

Marco.

DSJR
22-05-2010, 16:27
The trouble with online shopping is that everyone has to pay the same price for these things. No trade-ex trade discounts here :(

Tell you something Marco. I've been practising my soldering muchly these last few weeks, "Dada" re-capping a Quad 33 (and learning which way round Zener diodes go :scratch:), and re-learning how to carefully solder those god-awful DIN plugs. I've done a pretty fair job I reckon and am wondering if this may lead to some proper DIY work......

It's only a confidence thing, when all's said and done - needs must when you have a low disposable income for whatever reason ;)

Mike_New
22-05-2010, 23:19
chris@Panteg,
You are correct there would be no pressing need to upgrade to the new version, and I must say that the KAB unit will also perform OK with the new platter as well, for those who have this unit. The new TimeStep power supply does have some distinct improvements which I approve of, such as a much sturdier DC power supply cabling, and I believe higher max current capability, among others.

Citation16
26-05-2010, 10:41
I am presently using 3 copper mats (just got a third one from Larry) for a total platter weight of some 15 pounds and driven by the switching KAB power supply with the Mike New bearing. On top, is the recent version of the Oracle mat.

Their is no problem at all turning 15 pounds of platter and Mike's bearing handles the weight without any apparent issues, as the platter continues to rotate with great ease.

I would use Mike's new platter with the 3 copper mats for a total weight of some 24 pounds or so. I do not expect any problems with that much weight. (Brinkman makes a DD drive turntable with a 10 kg platter for the price of a $20,000 + car if I am not mistaken; only thing missing is a 15 kg plinth....)

Presently, using some 15 pounds of platter renders a very solid deep bass, lots of air & detail and wide & deep soundstage. The flywheel effect no doubt contributes to the sound, as I get more information from the record.

Marco
26-05-2010, 10:45
Hi mate,

Nice one :)

Two questions, though... What's your name? Oh, and who is Larry? :scratch:

Marco.

chris@panteg
26-05-2010, 10:58
My very basic understanding of how DD works is that you don't want a flywheel effect ? or do you .

Is it not true that you want the mass concentrated around the magnet rotor , not at the periphery of the platter ? .

Perhaps Mike ' can enlighten me here .

Marco
26-05-2010, 11:37
Chris, any idea who the Larry was 'Citation 16' was referring to? He seems to have gone before answering the question I asked him....

'Citation 16', I need your proper first name, so please supply it and add it to your signature at your earliest convenicence - cheers! :cool:

Marco.

chris@panteg
26-05-2010, 11:56
Don't know who Larry is Marco but i should imagine the guy will be back when Canada wakes up .

Marco
26-05-2010, 12:01
Yup - I expect so :)

Marco.

P.S Not long until your 1000th post!

MartinT
26-05-2010, 12:05
P.S Not long until your 1000th post!

I'm still waiting for my strikingly designed AoS award to put on the mantlepiece.

Marco
26-05-2010, 12:19
Oh don't worry, it's extremely cunningly crafted... I'll bring it down when I visit in a couple of months :eyebrows:

Marco.

pure sound
26-05-2010, 12:27
Larry will be Larry Denham who has an engineering company based in Canada called TTWeights. They make a variety of mats & clamps in various materials for different turntables.

http://shop.ebay.com/ldenham123/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340

While there is some scope for changing the weight of a DD turntable's platter by adding a heavy mat, there will be a limit above which it'd be necessary to adjust the control electronics slightly to allow the motor to remain in control of the platter. The SP10 Mk3 has a significantly heavier platter than the Mk2 but will be set up quite differently to allow for it.

The other issue is that increasing the load on a turntable's bearing will increase the noise that bearing produces. I don't think there's anyway round that short of supporting all or some of the mass on a magnetic field.

Citation16
26-05-2010, 12:46
Larry is the owner of the company that makes the copper mat. His web site is at : www.ttweights.com He is located in Ontario, Canada.
At first he made TT legs and then copper mats - he now makes 2 turntables models ( a third model on the way).


My very basic understanding of how DD works is that you don't want a flywheel effect ? or do you

I also have a basic understanding of mass. However, the flywheel effect would be the momentum caused by a high mass platter turning. So this momemtum is greater, as the platter is heavier.
This creates a more stable speed, as often some high mass platters are turned by a very small motor because it can bring the mass up to speed and maintain the speed with very little torque.
Insofar as a DD turntable does not want a flywheel effect, I would refer readers/members to the Brinkman turntable web site about their DD turntable with a 10 kg platter :http://www.brinkmann-audio.de/main.php?prod=oasis&lang=en

Also look at their Balance turntable with the high mass platter and small motor; the flywheel effect of the platter is most prominent also.

Yves
will update my signature soon.

Marco
26-05-2010, 13:01
Cool - cheers.

So what's your first name, mate? We like to be on first name terms here :)

Marco.

Marco
26-05-2010, 13:12
Thanks Yves! A new thread in the Welcome area, introducing yourself to our members (outlining taste in music, etc) also wouldn't go amiss :cool:

Marco.

Marco
26-05-2010, 13:46
Hi Guy,


While there is some scope for changing the weight of a DD turntable's platter by adding a heavy mat, there will be a limit above which it'd be necessary to adjust the control electronics slightly to allow the motor to remain in control of the platter. The SP10 Mk3 has a significantly heavier platter than the Mk2 but will be set up quite differently to allow for it.

The other issue is that increasing the load on a turntable's bearing will increase the noise that bearing produces. I don't think there's anyway round that short of supporting all or some of the mass on a magnetic field.

Interesting... Do you suspect that the control electronics would need adjusting with the use of Mike's platter, or is the extra weight over the existing platter not significant enough to alter the way the motor behaves?

Feedback from Mike would also be good on this :)

I'd also like Mike's view here:


The other issue is that increasing the load on a turntable's bearing will increase the noise that bearing produces.


What's your opinion on that, Mike?

I guess it boils down to the old 'choose your compromises' thing. As long as the positives, sonically, significantly outweigh any minor negatives, I'm still very interested in adding the new platter to my SL-1210.

Marco.

pure sound
26-05-2010, 14:14
I don't know. I'm sure someone like Dave Cawley would be able to make any necessary adjustment though

Mike_New
26-05-2010, 23:31
chris@panteg,
Firstly the Larry that Citation is refering to, is Larry Denham of TTweights in canada.
The flywheel effect that Citation was refering to. In any control system one always has the effect of feedback, the amount to correct any error being proportional to the error in many ways. Instantaneous value, rate of change of error, (de/dt) etc. These corrections are the subject of some pretty involved maths, as indeed they are with audio amplifiers!!
I do not believe that the DD would be any different in this regard, it could be argued that if the platter were of very low mass then any friction or stylus/music effects would occur more quickly and require more frequent corrections. The much heavier mass of the new platter greatly reduces these variables from any instantaneous change, as any heavy platter on any good TT is designed to do.
The flywheel affect would naturally be present as a function of diameter and mass, and is what is required for absolutely smooth control with minimum feedback affects from external influences such as stylus friction. The reason that the DD system is so very excellent for TT application over the elastic band driven machines, is that the correction is immediately felt by the 'system'. In any belt drivem system the belt per se' has to transmit the correction to the platter which can result in all sorts of effects caused by instataneous belt stretch etc. (and this stretch would be proportinal to platter mass) remember in all of these equations we are talking of very small values because that is what recorded sound is all about.

Marco
27-05-2010, 08:07
Hi Mike,

Thanks for that - again most interesting.... What about the questions I asked in my previous post? :)

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
27-05-2010, 09:27
I'd be very surprised if there was any additional noise from Mike's bearing with a heavier platter, since it is so well engineered. Whether the motor controls need to be adjusted to take into account the additional mass is not important, since the essential parameters can be easily altered by someone who knows about these things.

The copper mat thing interests me, even though I no longer own a Technics deck. Does the copper mat work because it, in effect, provides the mass and rigidity that the standard platter patently lacks? Mike used to use a copper mat "stuck" down to the standard platter using silicone grease - does the new machined platter move things along significantly? I would venture an opinion is that the flimsy interface between the Technics' alloy chassis and the main bearing housing is a more fundamental issue than the limitations of the standard platter; also it is clear (to me at least) that one of the reasons why Mike's bearing works so well is that, because it is very strong and utterly rigid, it imparts strength to that part of the chassis that did not have it before. It's also a very fine bearing, of course!

It does look more and more like the motor from the Technics is the only bit worth shouting about!

chris@panteg
27-05-2010, 09:35
chris@panteg,
Firstly the Larry that Citation is refering to, is Larry Denham of TTweights in canada.
The flywheel effect that Citation was refering to. In any control system one always has the effect of feedback, the amount to correct any error being proportional to the error in many ways. Instantaneous value, rate of change of error, (de/dt) etc. These corrections are the subject of some pretty involved maths, as indeed they are with audio amplifiers!!
I do not believe that the DD would be any different in this regard, it could be argued that if the platter were of very low mass then any friction or stylus/music effects would occur more quickly and require more frequent corrections. The much heavier mass of the new platter greatly reduces these variables from any instantaneous change, as any heavy platter on any good TT is designed to do.
The flywheel affect would naturally be present as a function of diameter and mass, and is what is required for absolutely smooth control with minimum feedback affects from external influences such as stylus friction. The reason that the DD system is so very excellent for TT application over the elastic band driven machines, is that the correction is immediately felt by the 'system'. In any belt drivem system the belt per se' has to transmit the correction to the platter which can result in all sorts of effects caused by instataneous belt stretch etc. (and this stretch would be proportinal to platter mass) remember in all of these equations we are talking of very small values because that is what recorded sound is all about.

Hi Mike

Many thanks for that , with your new platter i would suggest a dealer fitment and adjustment (Dave) for best results .

chris@panteg
27-05-2010, 09:37
It does look more and more like the motor from the Technics is the only bit worth shouting about!

Shuggie ' its looking that way ' but i think the top plate is also very good and solid, but it may have to be replaced also if one wants to go the whole 9 yards.

pure sound
27-05-2010, 09:51
I'd be very surprised if there was any additional noise from Mike's bearing with a heavier platter, since it is so well engineered.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't. More load equals more friction & therefore more noise. It's really a question rather of whether the increase is significant & whether the benefit of a heavier platter being controlled by this particular motor (& drive electronics) outweighs the effect of an increase in the noise produced by the bearing.

I can well imagine Mike's bearing being quieter than the stock bearing, but loading it more may give some of that advantage away.

Marco
27-05-2010, 10:04
Hi Hugo,


It does look more and more like the motor from the Technics is the only bit worth shouting about!


Lol - it's always been that way (as I've said many times before) ;)

I've always seen my SL-1210 as a top quality motor unit with some 'free bits' included - nothing more.

The novel thing about the Techy is that you can take a fairly inexpensive turntable, still in current production, and upgrade it slowly in affordable steps, to become something truly world-class, and that every upgrade step and associated product is supported and guaranteed by a knowledgeable UK dealer. *That* for me is invaluable!

No other turntable in the world offers such in-built flexibility and peace of mind upgrading potential - and that makes it a dream come true for people who would like to own a genuinely hi-end brand new T/T, but who couldn't afford to buy one of the recognised models outright :)

Btw, I had the opportunity recently to hear an utterly superb Kenwood/Trio L07-D, fitted with a Linn Troika, which was by far the best D/D turntable I've heard (yes, notably better than any SP10 I've heard so far!) I'll therefore be taking my Techy round to see how close it gets, as IMO the L07-D will act as an ideal benchmark from which to judge just how good my SL-1210 is - and how much better it could become with a superior PSU, new platter and plinth....

The results will be reported in Strokes of Genius in due course, so look out for that!

We must also arrange to do our own little T/T bake-off sometime :cool:

I've also recently taken delivery of a Paul Hynes SR3-21 PSU, with very interesting results, and I'm awaiting delivery of an SR5 for similar evaluation purposes. The latter will be compared with an HE Timestep, in due course (with and without Mike's new platter).

Exciting times are ahead!!

Marco.

Marco
27-05-2010, 10:05
I'd be very surprised if there wasn't. More load equals more friction & therefore more noise. It's really a question rather of whether the increase is significant & whether the benefit of a heavier platter being controlled by this particular motor (& drive electronics) outweighs the effect of an increase in the noise produced by the bearing.

I can well imagine Mike's bearing being quieter than the stock bearing, but loading it more may give some of that advantage away.

That's also how I see it, and hence why I've asked Mike to offer his opinion on this. Before I drop £650 on a new platter, I need to be 100% sure I'm doing the right thing!

Over to you, Mike (and/or Dave) :)

Marco.

chris@panteg
27-05-2010, 10:06
Hi Guy

Do you think its a step too far ? are we going beyond what the deck is really capable of as some believe ! .

MartinT
27-05-2010, 10:27
Does the copper mat work because it, in effect, provides the mass and rigidity that the standard platter patently lacks?

It's interesting to rap the platter both with and without the copper mat. The former rings like a bell while the latter gives a completely dead thud. The extra mass slows the startup, which doesn't concern me, but probably doesn't bother the Mike New bearing in the least.

Citation16
27-05-2010, 10:41
More load equals more friction & therefore more noise :scratch:

Anything is possible vis a vis load noise, but many a TT have a very high mass platter with no transmission of noise.

With 3 copper mats totalling 12 pounds + the 3 pound regular platter, their is no noise whatsoever & no perceive added friction on my TT, as the platter turns quite freely with the Mike New bearing.

So, with only using the Mike New 11.5 pound platter, even with one added copper mat, their should be no problem since its the same load or less that I am presently using.

In any case, as people acquire the new heavy platter from Mike, we will eventually get more feedback opinions.

Yves

pure sound
27-05-2010, 10:50
No, not at all. I just think that the change in the demands made of the motor control do need to be accounted for. Once it's decided that a heavy platter can be controlled & won't generate excessive low level noise, there are then various ways that such a platter could be made ie from 1 homogenous lump of material or perhaps a lamination of layers. There's scope to do quite alot.

It is making the end result somewhat expensive though. It would be interesting to make the comparison between a fully modified 1200 and a similarly priced 'normal' deck. The advantage that the 1200 enjoys through being a mass produced item is somewhat diminished by the substitution of expensive precision parts made in small quantities.

One other point. People keep saying that the 1210 motor was used to drive cutting lathes. Actually I think a motor that worked along the same principles as the turntable motors was used to drive cutting lathes and was called the SP-02. Something similar to the SP-02 was used in the SP10 Mk3 but that motor is a very different animal, in performance terms (noise, torque, accuracy) to the one fitted to the 1200/1210.

Marco
27-05-2010, 11:04
Hi Yves,

Good point, but subjectively perceived noise is one thing - measured noise is another.

As a subjectivist, I'm all for using my ears, but it's impossible for our ears to accurately assess the noise floor generated by the equipment we use. All we can detect as being present is what we perceive exists, and unfortunately that's not enough.

I'm sure in the past you've upgraded equipment or cables and noticed a perceived lower noise floor as a result, as indeed we all have.... However, did you notice the noise before it was removed?

Well of course, no - and that's the thing....

Only when low-level noise is removed (which we likely didn't even realise was there), and we have something with which to compare the 'before & after', are we able to recognise the existence of any noise. When low-level noise is generated by equipment or ancillaries, we often don't notice it, particularly when our ears are seduced by a sonic effect we enjoy. There are, after all, limitations as to what our ears can do.

Therefore returning to what Guy wrote:


It's really a question rather of whether the increase is significant & whether the benefit of a heavier platter being controlled by this particular motor (& drive electronics) outweighs the effect of an increase in the noise produced by the bearing.


That remains the key issue, and in order to ascertain and judge the effect of both, objective analysis with suitable measurement apparatus is required. Dave Cawley I would suggest is best placed to do this. There is a time and place to obsess over measurements - and this is one of them!

Only then will we know for sure whether the new platter brings more to the party than it detracts.

Marco.

Marco
27-05-2010, 11:21
Hi Guy,


The advantage that the 1200 enjoys through being a mass produced item is somewhat diminished by the substitution of expensive precision parts made in small quantities.


I know where you're coming from, but all the "expensive precision parts made in small quantities" of which you speak, apart from being engineered and built to the highest standards, are fully supported and guaranteed similar to any stock Technics parts, which makes your point somewhat moot....

The fact that the SL-1200 remains in current production, and therefore completely serviceable at any time, regardless of whether some of its constituent parts are replaced or not, is its major advantage over, for example, the SP10, where you're dealing with largely obsolete mechanical parts and control circuitry which are over 30 years old, and more likely functioning at considerably less than their original capacity (subject to being serviced/rebuilt by trained personnel).

That is the main reason (amongst others) why I've rejected the SP10 option, and instead gone for maxing-out my (bought brand new) SL-1210. In the end I obtain SP10 performance (or perhaps even better, admittedly at considerable cost) without the ball-ache of finding a mint SP10 in a top-notch pinth that's functioning (guaranteed) at 100% of its original capacity, which is all I'd be interested in - and that for me is a win-win :cool:

Marco.

Clive
27-05-2010, 11:52
I can't help wondering how the electronics in the Techie respond to a heavier (11.5lb) platter vs the original 4.4lb one, even with a powerful motor. I would have thought the idea of a DD is to be able to extremely rapidly adjust speed to be correct. Doesn't extra weight cause problems? As ever theory is one thing, sound another!

Rare Bird
27-05-2010, 13:01
Doesn't extra weight cause problems? As ever theory is one thing, sound another!

:respect:

Marco
27-05-2010, 13:35
Indeed - that's why we need a platter for testing, A.S.A.P, so we can assess things properly :)

Let's face it, the only way any of us are going to buy one is when someone we trust reports that it's a MASSIVE sonic upgrade over the stock platter (which warrants the cost) and that the extra weight definitely doesn't cause any problems for the motor and/or generates more noise from the bearing....

My suggestion would be either for Mike or Dave to supply a test platter (it could be one of the early 'imperfect' looking ones - as long it does the job) for (only serious) potential customers to pass round and assess over a given period of time before purchase of a brand new one. Also any purchase of a new platter would have to carry a guarantee that the motor unit would not be damaged over a given amount of time in relation to its normal lifespan.

Otherwise I can't see anyone shelling out £650 for something that may only offer a slight sonic improvement (or a trade-off of such) and that could potentially cause damage to the T/T motor unit in the long term.

Marco.

REM
27-05-2010, 16:02
It might be useful to have some idea about the projected longevity of the bearing considering the job it would be asked to do. Has Mike done any work in this respect by any chance?

A straight comparison between the New platter and the stock platter+Rubato copper mat would be interesting.

DSJR
27-05-2010, 16:26
The only thing I think which will be subject to the extra mass is the bearing, and that should be changed first in any case....

colinB
27-05-2010, 16:51
I know little about TT bearings but i used to refit massive motors for the M.O.D some of which had armatures on a vertical plane and the bottom bearings would need a bit of grease and they would be up and running again after 10 years of constant running. Those bearings looked weak compared with the bronze bearing. It looks like it could take an elephant.

REM
27-05-2010, 17:24
Dave, Colin,

It's the New bearing I'm referring to, of course, as far as I know the new platter will only be supplied to those who already have the New bearing.

However, it would be prudent to ascertain if there had been any actual work done on the projected bearing life given the mass involved. The history of audio is littered with heroic failures that should have worked but didn't due mainly to lack of proper development and it would be pretty awful if this ended up as another case of hindsight being a wonderful thing.

Cheers.

DSJR
27-05-2010, 18:47
The NAS Mentor bearing was something to behold and the main platter was around 35 - 40Kg as I remember. Mine did many hundreds of hours and was second-hand when I bought it from Tom Fletcher. I can assure you that there was absolutely NO wear on the bearing, not even a running mark or dimple on the inverted spindle. Tom changed the bearing after mine as I remember, to enable the oil to be better retained where it mattered, but even so, 10Kg is nothing to a bearing such as Mike makes.

Mike_New
28-05-2010, 00:25
Re percieved increase in bearing 'noise'

I do not believe that there would be any measureable increase in noise from my bearing comensurate with an increase in weight. The actual 'bearing' consists of an 8mm diameter Precisiuon ground Silicone Nitride ball, resting on a precision ground Carbide Pad. These Nitride balls are use in very high tech bearings which run at in excess of 100,000 rpm. Additionally the cavity of my bearing is filled with Synthetic Oil added to which is a very Extreme Pressure additive.

The statement that more load equals more friction and therefore more noise might be theoretically valid, but one has to consider the design parameters of the componenent under reveiw.

The problem is, that we can all sometimes get carried away by perceived problems before exhaustively examining the relavent parameters and requirements dictated by the application in question. (recently in another place I had to field an observation that the position of the lifting holes in my new platter were incorrectly spaced according to the theory of levers. Unfortunately he was not considering what practical function the holes were to perform)

For instance by the term 'noise' presumedly we mean vibration transmitted through the bearing shaft and into the platter. Now if we consider that the ball/carbide interface represents surfaces that are very smooth to within fractions of a micron, any noise (vertical vibration) will I beleive be unmeasurable. Secondly regarding the 'Physics' of the problem, It is well accepted theoretically that a perfectly sphearical ball pressed against a perfectly flat surface represents a point contact. Now a point contact in free space has no area!!, therefore the pressure at the point, by simple maths must be infinite!!

In fact of course this cannot be, and in fact as hard as the two surfaces are, there exists a very small deformation at the contact point which absorbs the load. (Just like the wheels on rail carriages) The argument of course revolves around 'how flat' and how 'smooth' are the surfaces. The bearing that I have designed and manufacture is made from the best available materials consistent with the 'not low' price, and was done so, cognisant that users would want to use the heavy copper mats and the newly released heavier platter.

For sure, there is an upper limit to the weight that the bearing can withstand, but I do not think we will sensibly reach this.

Dave Hewitt
28-05-2010, 09:33
Hi,
I once worked at an engineering firm where they had the capability to machine turntable platters from solid billet with ease.I had at the time a connoisseur bd1 turntable.I got the guys there to machine me a solid platter as opposed to the cast machined one,this along with the new motor pulley looked superb,but the resulting sound was not as good as the original.Perhaps the guys at Sugden and Technics know a thing or two about their products.Also why does every mod made to existing designs 'improve' on the original? Regarding the ability of the new bearing to be capable ,it seems easily up to the job of supporting the new platter,its only a record player after all.
Regards Dave.

Mike_New
01-06-2010, 03:46
I was interested to read over the weekend, the "White Paper" describing the philosophy of Brinkman GmbH concerning direct drive turntables A lot of it make sense!!

However in their description of their new DD motor which they describe as a soft drive, they say that it takes aprox 12 seconds to run up to speed! I initially considered that this must be a misprint, however the specs on the last page restate this and also say that 45rpm takes 16seconds!!!!!!!!!!

So you see the Technics SL1200 DD is still far supeior after all this time. Try counting up to 12 sec after you put the vynal onto the platter before you can lower the aaaarm.

anthonyTD
01-06-2010, 13:24
hi all,
i have followed this development with interest and i too have a few concerns about how the extra weight of the new platter may affect the sonics of the 1210. i have played about with turntables from all three designs over the years ie; idler drive, belt, direct drive and know from experience that even subtle changes like oil to grease bearings, as found on the garrard 301 makes a sonic diffrence, so i would like to ask mike first of all what it is he thinks was fundamentaly wrong with the original platter that warranted the design of this new heavier model, also, how in his opinion he thinks it may affect the speed stability ie; the motor's ability to make the very subtle but essential changes to speed that are needed for maintaining platter speed accuracy.
A...

DSJR
01-06-2010, 13:33
I think the "soft drive" is a carry-over of thinking with regard to belt drives, which take ages to reach speed (or the platters have to be spun up in the deliberate case of NAS decks) Linn's own Lingo supply gives full power to enable the quickest start possible and then scales back to minimise vibration once running. I'm sure the brinkman could do the same - increasing power on startup for a few seconds and then scaling right back once running. perhaps the buyers of such a deck would leave it running for hours on end, in which case 12 - 16 seconds is neither here or there if the record is changed while the deck is running. I think my SL-150 takes 4 to 5 seconds to bring the platter up to speed, as does the Dual and that's quite long enough for me..

Marco
01-06-2010, 14:16
hi all,
i have followed this development with interest and i too have a few concerns about how the extra weight of the new platter may affect the sonics of the 1210. i have played about with turntables from all three designs over the years ie; idler drive, belt, direct drive and know from experience that even subtle changes like oil to grease bearings, as found on the garrard 301 makes a sonic diffrence, so i would like to ask mike first of all what it is he thinks was fundamentaly wrong with the original platter that warranted the design of this new heavier model, also, how in his opinion he thinks it may affect the speed stability ie; the motor's ability to make the very subtle but essential changes to speed that are needed for maintaining platter speed accuracy.


Good one, Anthony. I would also like to know this, as the answer will have a fundamental influence on whether I'll be buying a new platter or not.

Mike, over to you....

It would also be useful if Dave C chipped in on this. Come on, Dave, your expertise here is needed :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
01-06-2010, 15:37
i was chatting with Dave about the platter the other day, he has been doing some quite in depth measurements and he sounded very confident that the motor was up to the job.
he spoke of adding even greater mass and that not causing any issue - and was telling me about all the little bits of wire hanging out the bottom of the turntable from the various ic's to do these measurements.
i asked him how it sounded, he said... "yes better, really how you would expect.... more like an sp10 i suppose"(or something along those lines... you know what he is like, he likes people to make up thier own minds on what sounds better) the impression i got from what he was saying is, yes it does sound different, better if its what you are after, and no there is no issue with it causing any problems to the turntable!... i doubt he would release it as a product if it was going to cause any problems with the turntable as he would no doubt end up with loads of unhappy people with damaged tt's... or at very least not as good sounding ones... i would have thought he is likely to be pretty thorough in his testing to avoid those situations ... so why not just sit back wait until he has them available and try it yum selves.
i think the answer to the question of what is wrong with the original platter is probably "not much.... but why not try and make a better one if a better one can be made".
the whole philosophy of modding the techie is trying to get every inch of performance out of this motor ... creating something that reduces the performance of the motor would be bloody stupid ... im not sure dave or mike come under the category of bloody stupid really! i for one will be giving them both the benefit of the doubt until the highly unlikely event of me hearing my turntable tell me otherwise

Marco
01-06-2010, 16:10
Nice one, Hamish :)

That's all well and good, though, but I'd still like Mike and Dave C themselves to comment specifically on the question Anthony asked (especially the bit I highlighted), supported of course with appropriate rationale.

No offence, dude, but rather than you having cosy chats with Dave in private about this, I'd like such discussions to occur out in the public domain here, where the information is in full view and of benefit to everyone, and of course where it can be challenged if necessary.

We scrutinise subjects in detail on AOS; we don't just simply 'accept' things, as the in-depth, probing, nature of discussions is an intrinsic part of our ethos.

Anyway, for some reason, Dave appears to have gone a little 'shy' on the matter....... :scratch:

Marco.

leo
01-06-2010, 16:25
Good one, Anthony. I would also like to know this, as the answer will have a fundamental influence on whether I'll be buying a new platter or not.

Mike, over to you....

It would also be useful if Dave C chipped in on this. Come on, Dave, your expertise here is needed :)

Marco.

Indeed, especially this for us fiddlers

how in his opinion he thinks it may affect the speed stability ie; the motor's ability to make the very subtle but essential changes to speed that are needed for maintaining platter speed accuracy.

Rare Bird
01-06-2010, 16:26
Anyway, for some reason, Dave appears to have gone a little 'shy' on the matter....... :scratch:



:lolsign:

Marco
01-06-2010, 16:31
Indeed, especially this for us fiddlers

how in his opinion he thinks it may affect the speed stability ie; the motor's ability to make the very subtle but essential changes to speed that are needed for maintaining platter speed accuracy.

Yep, Leo, that's *precisely* the bit I'd like a reasonably detailed technical explanation for, which the likes of Anthony and you could then 'decipher' for us mere mortals! ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
01-06-2010, 16:37
hi all,
i realy hope that mike accepts that my questions are real and genuine concerns on this, i understand fully and agree with the reasons for removing the power supply from under the deck ie; eddy currents produced from wound components like transformers are not good to have near pick ups etc, also i agree that supplying the best power supply posible for the motor and ancilaries to take full advantage of is an absolute must, but when it comes to altering the balance of the main 2 components that are a huge part of why this turntable performs as it does well...
anyway, i look forward to the comments on this.
A...

leo
01-06-2010, 16:47
I don't think anybody would take it the wrong way Anthony, its an important question, IMHO having some good details would put the minds at rest for all those interested in going for this particular upgrade

anthonyTD
01-06-2010, 16:56
I don't think anybody would take it the wrong way Anthony, its an important question,IMHO having some good details would put the minds at rest for all those interested in going for this particular upgrade

:)

DSJR
01-06-2010, 17:22
The original servo regulator, according to the Timestep site, is rather "rough" in the way it responds to slight changes in loading. From the evidence presented there, the improved regulator smooths the waveform no end.

I've mentioned before that this motor unit has been used to power incredibly heavy cutting-lathe platters with no problems at all as I understand. If Mr Cawley doesn't wish to post here, maybe Anthony could get hold of one and do some measurements?

The Vinyl Adventure
01-06-2010, 18:05
Cozy chat... Cheeky bugger!
Dave will no doubt produce his findings in his copy on his web site when he has finished his extensive testing, like any manufacturer he isn't oblidged to do anything more than that before he is ready... Peoples friendships here have given them the advantage to have the likes of mike to come on here and discus his ideas and concepts as he wishes... If dave doesn't wish to that it is his perogative.
My experience of dave has always been he is much more open when talking on the phone, if anyone want o know more, from the horses mouth as it were, just ring the guy... I'm sure he will be as forthcomeing as he has been with me..
Why would my chats with dave be any more "cozy" than anyone elses?

Marco
01-06-2010, 18:36
Lol.... Hamish, I wasn't having a dig at you! :)

...Although you seemed to be acting like his 'official spokesperson'.

All I'm wondering is why, when Dave once had no problem whatsoever waxing lyrical here about all things Techy, he's now all of a sudden developed 'Laryngitis' - particularly when things have become interesting in terms of the new platter and PSU! :confused: :scratch:

He's supposed to be a registered trade member here, someone who willingly provides information about his products when members/customers request it (witness for example how Paul Hynes, Stan Beresford, Anthony TD and Mike New respond to queries here about their products), but at the moment he's not behaving like we expect of an AOS trade member - and I'm finding that more than a little disappointing.

Message to Dave: There was no point in un-banning you after our little dispute, which as far as I'm aware we've resolved (no?), if you're not going to bother contributing anymore................ :(

Marco.

chris@panteg
01-06-2010, 21:54
Hi Marco

Can i suggest giving Dave just a wee bit more time ' i think he will want to test , test and test again before he will be happy with it , remember how long it took for the psu to develop .

Marco
01-06-2010, 22:01
Hi Chris,

I've got no problem with that whatsoever, and indeed I understand and appreciate what you're saying. But that's another matter altogether.

Dave's been on-line today and reading this thread (I know from the stats), obviously noticing the questions that were being asked, and yet hasn't had the courtesy to respond.......

I'm sorry, but I consider that rather rude. The very least he could've done was offered a comment on what Anthony asked Mike, as he's ideally positioned to respond. I think we deserve some feedback on the results of his experiments so far, don't you?

Dave's either a trade member in the full sense of what we expect here on AOS, or there's not much point in him being here at all! We don't facilitate the presence of 'silent' trade members who prefer to hide. Trade members here are expected to be proactive in our community, offering advice and assistance where required.

At the moment I don't see too many new platters being sold until we get the answers to our concerns we're looking for, so it'll ultimately be his (and Mike's) loss.............

Anyway, I shall say no more on the subject of Dave for now.

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
01-06-2010, 22:08
This is just exacerbating issues ...

The Grand Wazoo
01-06-2010, 23:01
Marco, I don't know what's transpired between Dave & yourself &, actually, I honestly don't care to know, but some of what you say here is, I think a little unfair.

There's obviously something still rubbing at Dave, or I'm sure he would have responded, but surely it is for him to choose whether or not to respond to comments addressed to him and also to time those to be whenever he sees fit?
I'm sure many of us often hold back from commenting on a thread until we feel we are best placed to do so. I can think of a couple occasions in the last week when I've done just that.

Regarding this bit:

Dave's either a trade member in the full sense of what we expect here on AOS, or there's not much point in him being here at all! We don't facilitate the presence of 'silent' trade members who prefer to hide. We expect trade members to be proactive in our community and to offer advice and assistance where required.

Well, that's just not correct, surely? The members list is stuffed full of trade members who have hardly, or never, posted here, yet they still enjoy the opportunity to have their details & web-links listed here.


At the moment I don't see too many new platters being sold until we get the answers to our concerns we're looking for, so it'll be his (and Mike's) loss.............

This is something I'm sure those concerned will be fully aware of, so I'd think there is good reason for Dave's silence.

............just my thoughts. Sorry to butt in.

Cheers

Marco
01-06-2010, 23:23
Hi Chris,


There's obviously something still rubbing at Dave, or I'm sure he would have responded...


Indeed, and I intend to find out what it is so I can (hopefully) resolve the issue.


...but surely it is for him to choose whether or not to respond to comments addressed to him and also to time those to be whenever he sees fit?


Normally yes, but Dave's been given plenty of time to return to his normal self since he was un-banned nearly SIX WEEKS ago, and apart from his solitary post in the Dartmouth thread in the off-topic area, he's been 'AWOL' in the main part of the forum.

He told me that everything was ok when we had (apparently) settled our differences last time and that he'd be posting again on the forum soon. That was about 4 weeks ago. Patently something is still wrong and I don't like being misled. He needs to be honest and upfront with me or he has no future here. It's as simple as that.

Given that the subject of this thread is directly related to a key part of his product portfolio (namely the Technics SL-1200, and modification thereof), he really should be contributing to the discussion where required.

It wouldn't hurt Dave to be as eager to oblige and as forthcoming about discussing his products and services as, say, Stan, Tony Sallis, Hi-fi Dave, Mark Grant and Anthony TD are, amongst others - and indeed this level of contribution is what we'll be asking from all our new and existing trade members in future.


I'm sure many of us often hold back from commenting on a thread until we feel we are best placed to do so. I can think of a couple occasions in the last week when I've done just that.


That's absolutely fine for normal members, but trade members here have a responsibility to their customers, so different rules apply in that respect.


Well, that's just not correct, surely? The members list is stuffed full of trade members who have hardly, or never, posted here, yet they still enjoy the opportunity to have their details & web-links listed here.


True, but some of those will be weeded out soon, as they're simply not an asset to our community. Changes will be made in that area in due course.


This is something I'm sure those concerned will be fully aware of, so I'd think there is good reason for Dave's silence.


Yes, and I will get to the bottom of it soon!


............just my thoughts. Sorry to butt in.


No problem. Your thoughts are always welcome :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
01-06-2010, 23:32
Thanks for your reply Marco.


Normally yes, but Dave's been given plenty of time to return to his normal self since he was un-banned nearly SIX WEEKS ago, and apart from his one post in the Dartmouth thread in the off-topic area, he's been 'AWOL' in the main part of the forum.

He told me that everything was ok and that he'd be posting again on the forum soon, and that was about 4 weeks ago. Patently something is wrong and I don't like being misled. He needs to be honest and upfront with me or he has no future here. It's as simple as that.


My thought is that maybe the very thing that makes Dave uncomfortable about returning as he was before is discussion such as this, so with that, I'm off the subject.
If you read this Dave, I apologise to you also for butting in.

Marco
01-06-2010, 23:38
No worries, Chris. The fact of course is that there would be no need for a discussion such as this if he'd just been honest and told me what the problem was in the first place.

What I don't like is being told one thing (everything is ok), when quite clearly it isn't. That really pisses me off!

Marco.

SteveW
02-06-2010, 06:25
Good grief Marco....
Are you really having a rant because someone is NOT posting?

MartinT
02-06-2010, 06:39
Marco, I think you need to leave Dave be for a while. I am sure he is reading this and continually goading him is not going to make him contribute. We know he has a lot to offer and can only hope that, in time, he will come back to us again.

twelvebears
02-06-2010, 06:55
Marco.

If you truly want AOS to be a completely open and honest forum, then people need to feel they have the right to express (or indeed not express in Dave's case) their views and thoughts (within reasonable limits) without the fear that they are going to always get 'the gospel according to Marco' if they say the wrong thing.

I like and respect Dave a great deal and like Martin, I think that if you do want him to keep being part of AOS (as I very much do), then you need to stop making comments which come across as provocative.

Marco
02-06-2010, 09:40
Guys,

I just don't like being told one thing when something else is patently the case. It's a pet hate of mine. That's the root of the problem here - not me ranting because someone's not posting.

Anyway, I'll sort things out with Dave in due course, so let's move on and get back to the original thread topic please.... Anthony has asked Mike this (fundamentally important) question regarding the platter, which I think deserves an answer:


i would like to ask mike first of all what it is he thinks was fundamentaly wrong with the original platter that warranted the design of this new heavier model, also, how in his opinion he thinks it may affect the speed stability ie; the motor's ability to make the very subtle but essential changes to speed that are needed for maintaining platter speed accuracy.


Marco.

Mike_New
02-06-2010, 10:57
Tony,
It is not necessarily a case of what I think, is fundamentally wrong with the existing platter. I have already posted an image of the standard SL platter cross-section showing very clearly what a flimsy shaped thing it is, there being more rubber than metal!

Indeed when I first mentioned that I was working on the design of a new platter, people posted comments stating that they wanted it to be as heavy as possible and that the new platter was going to be the best thing since sliced bread!!. Also that anything would be an advantage over the existing one, which rings like a bell and is indeed shaped like one! This is not to say that it does not play records. Obviously it does, there are a few hundred thousand in existence. I was of the opinion that most of you were, like myself of the opinion that the platter could be greatly improved on, given that you now have a decently designed bearing to use it with.

If I need to spell out to anyone at this point in time, what is fundamentally wrong with the platter then maybe those people have not been reading any of the previous posts or threads in this site or others; that have occurred over the past six months or so. There has after all, been countless threads and posts concerning the various designs of mats, all of which purport to overcome the limitations of the existing platter.

I have stated in previous posts that I do not believe the heavier platter will affect in any way the motor control system’s ability to maintain correct speed at all times.
‘Subtle and essential changes to speed’ are merely those changes required to maintain the speed as closely as possible to 331/3 and 45 rpm There is sufficient power available to the motor to maintain correct speed with the additional weight of platter under discussion. The additional power required is only that occasioned by the minutely increased friction on the bearing caused by the vertical downwards pressure. I have covered this aspect of bearing friction in an earlier post, which I suspect some have not read or adequately understood. The only area where a variation may be notice is in the run-up time, which is already very short! (not 12 seconds)

Dave has done considerable testing since he received the first platter from me about three weeks ago. I am privy to the results of these tests which I would consider are all positive, but I am not at liberty to discus them at this time as they are confidential to Dave.

I do hope that the forgoing serves to ally the concerns of those of you who are not in the least technically endowed, but appreciate quality sound when they hear it. I am not claiming that the new platter is all things to all people, after all we do not have any in the field yet.

Marco
02-06-2010, 11:33
Hi Mike,

I appreciate your feedback. I wasn't expecting definitive answers at this stage, as the product is still in its infancy; merely reasonable reassurance of the concerns that have been raised, which thankfully you have provided.

Silence (not on your part) only breeds anxiety and concern............ I like to be able to chat with the necessary people involved and thrash these things out in the open - that's all! :)

What was worrying me (and to an extent, Anthony) was if the extra weight of the new platter would affect the motor unit's ability to maintain its highly accurate speed stability (even very minutely), and if so, how this would impact on music reproduced by the T/T. *That* is the crux of the matter, as far as we're concerned, and merely listening to the results won't be enough to ascertain exactly what's going on.

Therefore some documented measurements, showing the speed stability of the drive system using the stock platter (powered by the standard Timestep PSU) before, and then after the new platter and HE PSU mods have been installed, would be useful - and that's where Dave comes in.

I've no doubt whatsoever that your superb bearing is more than capable of handling the new platter's extra mass, so have no real concerns in that area about any more noise being generated - certainly anything that our ears would notice.

However, if I'm honest, I still have some reservations as to how the increased mass of the new platter will impact on the motor unit's ability to perform within its design parameters, in terms of maintaining the drive system's highly accurate speed stability under load, and whether the increased stress on the motor unit in the long term would shorten its lifespan.

Marco.

DSJR
02-06-2010, 11:38
Marco mate, we discussed "things" a few weeks ago didn't we. Leave it be and all will be revealed I'm sure, when there's summat to shout from the rooftops about.

Ego? ME? - Nah..... I know my lowly place in the pecking order :D

Marco
02-06-2010, 12:06
Hi Dave,


Marco mate, we discussed "things" a few weeks ago didn't we. Leave it be and all will be revealed I'm sure, when there's summat to shout from the rooftops about.


That's fair enough, but there's nothing wrong with being inquisitive in the meantime :)

I'm afraid that I'm not one of these people who will simply just sit back and 'accept' what a manufacturer says a new product will do - I like to probe deeply into things and challenge what I feel are areas of concern.

I'm certainly not just going to sit back and wait until Dave says: 'Ok chaps, everything's hunky-dory now, platter and PSU-wise, so let's have your money', and then writes a few words on his website to that effect, and buy a new platter and an HE PSU without first being absolutely certain that what I'm doing is the right thing - and just as importantly, that I'm able to offer others here advice from a position of knowledge and experience when they ask me is the new platter and/or PSU worth buying, and why....

How do you think I got into the whole Techy thing in the first place? Well, it was after many months (more like years, actually) of continuous research, making sure that what I was going to invest thousands of pounds in was the right turntable for me. I always knew that it was an expensive project I was about to embark on, which of course has turned out to be the case.

I didn't just wake up one morning and on a whim decide to abandon belt-drive T/Ts forever and import a fully-modified SL-1210 from KAB in America, beginning the journey to where I am now..............

So I make no apologies for being thorough. I will not change. It's the reason why I own the type of system I do, and also how I've obtained such in-depth knowledge as to why all the components work together so well! ;)

Marco.

Alex Nikitin
02-06-2010, 12:08
how the increased mass of the new platter will impact on the motor unit's ability to perform within its design parameters, in terms of maintaining the drive system's highly accurate speed stability, and whether the increased stress on the motor unit in the long term would shorten its lifespan.

IMHO - the increased mass will only help to maintain speed, and if SL1200 motor survives years of abuse by DJs, an additional mass of the platter is highly unlikely to present a problem.

Alex

Marco
02-06-2010, 12:37
Hi Alex,

Point taken :)

However, I suspect that the motor unit would, presuming that others and my concerns are founded, be exposed to a different (and more constant) type of 'abuse' than that inflicted on it by DJs.

I listen on average to vinyl 5-6 hours a day, every day, (and sometimes much more), so I would suspect that over the course of a year this is more use (or abuse) than your average DJ gives his or her deck in pubs and clubs - and of course provides ample opportunity for wear on the motor due to excess platter mass, *should* this be a real issue of concern.

Marco.

Clive
02-06-2010, 12:41
I voiced similar concern to ATD a while back. I expect the motor can cope, what interests me is whether the electronics doing the speed controlling could need some tweaking in the event they don't work as well as expected due to the extra weight. Presumably there's a feedback mechanism the expects reactions in a particular time frame, this could be distorted due the heavy platter. All theory of course.

Ian Walker
02-06-2010, 12:53
I listen on average to vinyl 5-6 hours a day, every day, and sometimes much more...

He's not jokin lads he dosn't even bother avin a wash!:lol:

Marco
02-06-2010, 13:00
:lol: :lolsign:

Marco (typing this now in his gravy-stained vest and lightly-soiled PJs)

MartinT
02-06-2010, 13:46
A few pointers to potential benefits: firstly, I am using a Copper mat and this combination, although not as heavy as the Mike New platter, is pretty damned heavy compared with the Technics platter on its own.

The Techie platter rings like a bell when sitting on its bearing with no mat on top. With the copper mat, it gives a dull thud. The MN platter is likely to be just as dead, if not more so. This leaves the Herbies mat to do its thing as a vinyl coupler.

Start-up time is a little slower with the Timestep PSU, but only a bit. Stopping time, once the brake adjustment pot has been tweaked a little clockwise on the main PCB, is just as fast as before. The motor has plenty of torque to spare and is not going to see the additional mass as much of an impediment when locked at the correct rotational speed.

Finally, Alex's point about DJ abuse is a valid one. The load on the standard Technics bearing when a DJ is scratching with a slipmat must be huge compared with the normal weight of an LP or during start-up, and I can just imagine the motor current stepping up for hours of torment during a gig while the LPs are being slowed down and reversed. These motors and their drive circuit are no shrinking violets.

Based on what I can hear and sound engineering sense, I expect the MN platter to sound superb. I can't wait to try one out.

Marco
02-06-2010, 14:00
Me neither, Martin. Good post, btw - I concur with most of your observations :)

However, returning to what I wrote earlier:


Therefore some documented measurements, showing the speed stabilty of the drive system using the stock platter (powered by the standard Timestep PSU) before, and then after the new platter and HE PSU mods have been installed, would be useful - and that's where Dave comes in.


I presume that such a thing can be measured and documented for our perusal?

I'll require this information (or similar evidence which satisfies my concerns above) before I'd consider buying the new platter, as this is one modification the effects of which I'm unwilling to judge solely by subjective analysis.

There's a time and place to be anal about measurements, and this is one of them!

Marco.

Alex Nikitin
02-06-2010, 14:35
I presume that such a thing can be measured and documented for our perusal?

It would be quite difficult to measure the actual long-term speed stability differences on a crystal-controlled device. My feeling is that this particular measurement would be rather meaningless. It would be possible to measure the W&F however that measurement too has its limits as it depends on many variables, including the test record used.

Alex

Marco
02-06-2010, 15:15
W&F figures (before and after) using a series of chosen test records, played and analysed over and extended period of time, would be useful.

Basically, I'm looking for any objective evidence which proves beyond reasonable doubt that the extra mass of the new platter does not impact adversely on the speed stability of the SL-1200's drive system in the short, medium or long-term.

The reason I'm being so particular about this is quite simply because our ears would not immediately detect any minute variance in the speed stability of the drive system, but a stylus on a cartridge would.....

Therefore (if that were the case), through time this would manifest itself and translate to our ears as a blurring of the leading edges of notes, causing pitch and timing issues, and a perceived 'slowing down' of the music, even though objectively this may not show up on test apparatus, and through time, subsequent dissatisfaction of music reproduced - even if initially there were improvements sonically in other areas.

In effect, one could unconsciously succeed in eroding the very sonic characteristics which attracted us to the Technics in the first place.

It's a genuine serious concern of mine, and one which in the current absence of undisputable evidence to the contrary, I feel is entirely justified. I'm merely being as thorough as possible to ensure that every user experiences long-term satisfaction with this particular modification.

£650 is a not an inconsiderable sum to waste (not including the cost of a replacement motor unit, in the worst case scenario) should the new heavier platter cause more problems than it solves.

If Mike's platter works as well as his superb bearing does, and it's not a 'bridge too far', then trust me, no-one would be more pleased than me - and I'd be the first to praise it and promote its use amongst the many SL-1200/1210 aficionados here and elsewhere! :)

However, in the meantime, I feel that it's prudent to exercise caution.

Marco.

DSJR
02-06-2010, 16:10
This new platter is £650 right?????

Bloody 'eck fella's, it's as bad as SME apparently charging £225 or so for a couple of phono sockets, a bit of bent metal and a screening can which fits decades worth of tonearms, so no R&D charges there.....

Apologies, I've already made my feelings on this plain enough and still think a Spacedeck with heavy kit (a graphite platter this one, plus a new arm-pod) and Wave Mechanic supply will be a musically better (or at least equal) sounding machine..

Prices:

AceSpace - £1200
Heavy Kit - £450
Wave Mechanic - £540 approx - re-generates the 50Hz waveform and gives speed adjustment too.

Total - £2190 AND IT'S ALL UK MADE!!!!!

So there!!!

I'll return to my slimy stone now and leave the rest to your bank balances...

MartinT
02-06-2010, 16:26
Sounds interesting Dave, and I don't doubt that it sounds good, but have you heard one compared with a fully modded Techie?

DSJR
02-06-2010, 16:38
I haven't sadly :( I'm hoping one of you will bother to compare. I CAN say that Tom's designs come incredibly close to what I know was there at the session (I had tapes and a Linn-cut master lacquer when I first discovered the range at HiFi dave's) and although I don't think Tom had access to master lacquers and tapes/files, this wonderful "feel" he has for decent engineering has enabled him to design some genuine "transcription" quality turntables at very reasonable prices (the Dias is amazing IMO)

I do know a dealer who compared a half-way Techie last year to a standard AceSpace and the NAS was better apparently (I do trust his hearing and he may come along later to confirm what I've said). I don't know the details and I DO FULLY UNDERSTAND that you can buy a reasonable 12** deck for very little and then take it from there as funds allow. By the time you've got there, you'll be a couple of grand at least further down the road but you may be so happy, you won't worry in the slightest.

The Vinyl Adventure
02-06-2010, 16:44
Yeah, I wouldn't worry... Spending money on hifi stops me spending money on whores, smack and guns and stuff

DSJR
02-06-2010, 16:46
Yeah, I wouldn't worry... Spending money on hifi stops me spending money on whores, smack and guns and stuff

:eek:

REM
02-06-2010, 16:55
A couple of stats to ponder, from VE and Panasonics.

SP-10/2, platter 2.9kg, motor torque 6kg/cm.

SL-12xx, platter 1.7kg, motor torque 1.5kg/cm.

The SP-10/3 has a 10kg platter but they upped the motor torque to 16kg/cm to cope, obviously a couple of raw figures don't even begin to tell the story but I can't help thinking that the Technics designers probably had good reasons for doing things the way they did.

John
02-06-2010, 17:13
Dave I heard Marco TT at the weekend and like you been pretty much a sceptic about the 1210
I thought it was very good about on a similar par to a VPI Superscoutmaster with rim drive or a 401 well plinthed; but also think there is a lot more room for improvement in terms resolution to complete with the very best. I think the 1210 is a definate valid path to go down but as Marco knows I will choose another path.
For myself I would be more worried about the small fluctions the heavy platter might cause than wear, the bearing Mike makes looks a fantastic piece of kit.
Its a big investment and totally understand the concern people might have I can see perhaps Martin and Hamish going for this first and depending on reports Marco to purchase one.
I know Marco wants to take the 1210 to its ultimate performance and at this stage I do not think that has been reached.
Sorry I usually stay out of the 1210 threads just thought I add my two pence worth

Marco
02-06-2010, 17:43
Well, John, you've heard an extensively modified one now, so you're qualified to comment :)

Hi Ralph,


The SP-10/3 has a 10kg platter but they upped the motor torque to 16kg/cm to cope, obviously a couple of raw figures don't even begin to tell the story but I can't help thinking that the Technics designers probably had good reasons for doing things the way they did.


I would tend to agree......

Dave,

I'll get to the rest of what you've written later (some of your points are very valid), but no matter how good the Spacedeck is, it won't sound like a top-notch direct-drive T/T.

Once your ears have 'tuned into' the way both belt and direct-drive T/Ts present music, and highly favour one over the other, then nothing else will do.

There are fundamental issues, regarding the above, which I dislike about belt-drive T/Ts, so none, no matter how good they are, would likely ever satisfy my ears in the long-term.

David Price sums up the difference rather well between the two in this month's HFW, where he reviews the superb new Brinkmann Bardo direct-drive T/T. What he outlines almost exactly mirrors my own experiences in that respect.

I'm hopeful now that there are signs of the hi-end T/T audio industry embracing the clear advantages of D/D done well, which will hopefully continue to dissolve the ridiculous indoctrination we've been subjected to over many years that 'belt-drive is best', and that this will start to burst some important bubbles! ;)

I suggest that you pop out and buy a copy - the article makes for very interesting reading!

Ok, chaps, I'm going out for dinner now with Del to one of our favourite local wine bars, so (much) laterz! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR
02-06-2010, 21:22
I DO use a direct drive turntable myself you know, and the particular Papst derived motor used was designed to minimise if not remove the "cogging" and servo difficulties exhibited in many 70's direct drives.

As for the techie torque, surely the different ratings were for the instant start and stop boasted by these decks?????

Marco, don't forget the flywheel effect of heavy platters, which may well absorb the dynamic wow effects of many belt drives.

MartinT
03-06-2010, 05:38
As for the techie torque, surely the different ratings were for the instant start and stop boasted by these decks?????

Exactly. Radio stations would typically drop and cue up the stylus onto the stationary record just before the point that the music starts. When ready to broadcast, they would hit start and expect full speed in a fraction of a rotation.

REM
03-06-2010, 08:04
Agreed the hi-torque would be a quick start requirement but ISTR somewhere from the depths of time reading that one of the reasons for the superiority of the SP-10 over competing contemporary designs, was the hi-torque motor allied to the generally excellent engineering.

Marco
03-06-2010, 10:31
Indeed - and from what I've heard of SP10s, the greater torque doesn't necessarily translate into superior audio performance. In fact, in that respect, it may even be a hindrance. SP10s sound as they do (superb) mainly for other reasons.

Like Martin says, the SP10's massive level of torque was purely for super-quick start-up time in radio stations, which is not something we have to worry about at home :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
10-06-2010, 09:01
Tony,
It is not necessarily a case of what I think, is fundamentally wrong with the existing platter. I have already posted an image of the standard SL platter cross-section showing very clearly what a flimsy shaped thing it is, there being more rubber than metal!

Indeed when I first mentioned that I was working on the design of a new platter, people posted comments stating that they wanted it to be as heavy as possible and that the new platter was going to be the best thing since sliced bread!!. Also that anything would be an advantage over the existing one, which rings like a bell and is indeed shaped like one! This is not to say that it does not play records. Obviously it does, there are a few hundred thousand in existence. I was of the opinion that most of you were, like myself of the opinion that the platter could be greatly improved on, given that you now have a decently designed bearing to use it with.

If I need to spell out to anyone at this point in time, what is fundamentally wrong with the platter then maybe those people have not been reading any of the previous posts or threads in this site or others; that have occurred over the past six months or so. There has after all, been countless threads and posts concerning the various designs of mats, all of which purport to overcome the limitations of the existing platter.

I have stated in previous posts that I do not believe the heavier platter will affect in any way the motor control system’s ability to maintain correct speed at all times.
‘Subtle and essential changes to speed’ are merely those changes required to maintain the speed as closely as possible to 331/3 and 45 rpm There is sufficient power available to the motor to maintain correct speed with the additional weight of platter under discussion. The additional power required is only that occasioned by the minutely increased friction on the bearing caused by the vertical downwards pressure. I have covered this aspect of bearing friction in an earlier post, which I suspect some have not read or adequately understood. The only area where a variation may be notice is in the run-up time, which is already very short! (not 12 seconds)

Dave has done considerable testing since he received the first platter from me about three weeks ago. I am privy to the results of these tests which I would consider are all positive, but I am not at liberty to discus them at this time as they are confidential to Dave.

I do hope that the forgoing serves to ally the concerns of those of you who are not in the least technically endowed, but appreciate quality sound when they hear it. I am not claiming that the new platter is all things to all people, after all we do not have any in the field yet.

hi mike,
thanks for your reply, i agree with you on the ringing affects that flimsy light platters suffer from and this is indeed a problem on some decks mainly in my experience with idler drive systems, also a heavy platter on a belt drive deck is an added advantage when trying to maintain constant speed taking advantage of the flywheel affects etc. also i can see why a heavier platter would in some respects be advantageous on a direct drive deck when the motor is not a particularly good one and therefore suffers from the obvious and therefore undesirable "cogging affect", however my point was and still is this:

How will the new heavier platter affect the motor and therefore its control circuitry's ability to cope and still be able to adjust and change "INSTANTLY" to the very small but infinite changes needed to counteract the ever-varying different and complex loading that is a fact of needle and record groove contact?

regards,anthony,TD...

Marco
10-06-2010, 09:20
Yup, that's the one I'd like a definitive answer to as well :)

Mike?

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2010, 09:45
I think the simple answer for anyone wanting to know the answer to this is just to phone dave! As I said before he was more than forthcoming with the answers but doesn't really want to speak on forums any more!
The jist for anyone loosly interested (without wanting to be a spokesperson for dave as such) is that even with a mass far in excess of the new platter, the motor has no issue spinning up to speed in a very short amout of time. As well as that once spinning it provides no extra strain on the motor over the normal platter.... That's at least how I understood it anyway...

Gdg
10-06-2010, 10:20
Since I'm interested in MN platter, too, I'm trying hard to follow this thread, but there's somenthing I can't understand.
Let's suppose the MN platter is really too heavy for the SL 1200 engine, so what is going to happen?

My only 2 guess are:
1. melting of the engine or burning of something on the circuitry
2. instable rotation of the platter

If 1, well, 6 months or so of testing with some continuos running and some thermal sensor should be enough to know. BTW, this should be the total time Dave/Mike applyed to the combo before real sells ("...mid/late 2010...").

I'm sure neither Dave nor Mike want to fix angry customer's TT for free, just for the sake of doin' it.

if 2... oh well guys, if this happens I do believe each and everyone could tell that and I'm still confident Dave/Mike are no going to sell something they know is... downgrade.

Am I wrong or am I miss something in the above thought?
-

YNWaN
10-06-2010, 10:50
I think your summary of the situation is a bit simplistic to be honest Giovanni. I'm sure you are correct that Dave/Mike would support the customer through any issues and would not sell a product that would cause damage. On the other hand, defining 'unstable rotation of the platter' (as you put it) is altogether less easy to do. In fact, if there was a way of definitively describing this quality we would all be using the same drive technology for our turntables.

Marco
10-06-2010, 11:09
Hi Hamish,


I think the simple answer for anyone wanting to know the answer to this is just to phone dave! As I said before he was more than forthcoming with the answers but doesn't really want to speak on forums any more!


Remember what I wrote earlier:


Therefore some documented measurements, showing the speed stability of the drive system using the stock platter (powered by the standard Timestep PSU) before, and then after the new platter and HE PSU mods have been installed, would be useful - and that's where Dave comes in.

W&F figures (before and after) using a series of chosen test records, played and analysed over and extended period of time, would be useful.


How can I examine the above evidence in a phone call? ;)

Before I'd consider buying the new platter, I'll need to see some documented measurements, confirming the above, on a screen in front of me, so that Anthony, for example, can confirm that they irrefutably dismiss our concerns. Dave, apparently, has the necessary test equipment, and has been working on this, so therefore when he's finished there's nothing to stop him from supplying the relevant measurements either here or on his website.


The jist for anyone loosly interested (without wanting to be a spokesperson for dave as such) is that even with a mass far in excess of the new platter, the motor has no issue spinning up to speed in a very short amout of time. As well as that once spinning it provides no extra strain on the motor over the normal platter.... That's at least how I understood it anyway...

That's not what we're getting at, dude.... Read what Anthony wrote again:


How will the new heavier platter affect the motor and therefore its control circuitry's ability to cope and still be able to adjust and change "INSTANTLY" to the very small but infinite changes needed to counteract the ever-varying different and complex loading that is a fact of needle and record groove contact?


The key word there is "instantly".

If there's even the tiniest, minutest deviation in the drive system's ability to maintain correct speed during playback (causing it to 'hunt' as the control circuitry attempts to lock the correct the speed), this will immediately be detected by the stylus and translated to our ears as a perceived 'slowing down' of the music, leading to timing and pitch problems and the diluting of leading-edge definition.

In short, we'd eventually find ourselves disinterested when listening to music because the sound would be robbed of 'life'.

We need some objective evidence which shows that, when the new platter and HE PSU are fitted, the drive system will be able to maintain the correct speed as accurately as it currently does with the stock platter. When that's confirmed, we can then enjoy the sonic benefits of the new platter in terms of it being more rigid and less resonant.

Do you see what I'm getting at? :)

I don't want any compromises or trade-offs with this modification - only undisputable all-round improvements!

Marco.

P.S Giovanni, this reply is also directed at you.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2010, 11:39
I suspect we might end up going round in circles on this one again... I was just mentioning the convo I had with dave.
if he continues to avoid comment on the forum I expect dave will provide some info on his website in due course

my own personal untrained logic tells me that a greater massed platter would be less suseptable to minor changes in speed caused by the contact of the needle in the groove... But then what the eff do I know?! :)

Marco
10-06-2010, 11:51
Hamish,

The problem occurs much earlier than that as soon as the motor has to deal with the extra weight of the new platter.

You may be right though, and if you are, then it would be great news. However, I'm afraid that Dave's 'word of mouth' is simply not enough on this, at least not for me anyway.

And of course his current refusal to comment here is doing nothing whatsoever to clarify the situation and/or help matters :rolleyes:

Anyway, the least said about that the better!

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2010, 12:08
Yes as has been discussed al length, it's perhaps advisable for all partys if that particular angle on this subject is avoided!
Dare I once agian utter the words "it's his perogative" :)

Marco
10-06-2010, 12:31
Yes, and it's also our prerogative to challenge him and/or his assertions, even if he doesn't reply! ;)

Just to reiterate and make it absolutely clear: this is not about a squabble between Dave and me; it's about getting to the nitty-gritty of whether the new platter offers an all-round sonic improvement, with no trade-offs - or not, as the case may be. And I intend to be thorough and get to the bottom of it for everyone's benefit :)

One further thought I'd add regarding your assertion earlier:


my own personal untrained logic tells me that a greater massed platter would be less suseptable to minor changes in speed caused by the contact of the needle in the groove...


...Is that the ability of the high-mass platter to even-out stylus drag is a misunderstanding of the circuit, IMHO, as the torque does that.

The control circuitry and feedback loop do not exist to counter the drag of the stylus; they exist to counter the inherent speed inaccuracies within the drive system.

It's the new platter's effect on the ability of the control circuitry to do its job properly and maintain the drive system's speed accuracy that others and I here are concerned about.

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2010, 14:02
Make your mind up mate

Quote:
How will the new heavier platter affect the motor and therefore its control circuitry's ability to cope and still be able to adjust and change "INSTANTLY" to the very small but infinite changes needed to counteract the ever-varying different and complex loading that is a fact of needle and record groove contact?
or am I just very confused?

Marco
10-06-2010, 14:10
Lol - it was Anthony who wrote that, not me. I agree with him, although he's said what I'm getting at in a slightly different way.

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
10-06-2010, 14:21
Ok... Here is how I see it... This FYI is me speaking, not dave...
Tie a tenis ball to 3 foot of string and swing it round next to you, after it is up to speed, adjusting the speed it is spinning is easy, and if fact retaining the speed it is spinning is also easy it can be done with just a very slight flick of the rist.. In fact after a point you hardly realise it is you spinning it...
Now take a ball 5 times heavier and do the same... Getting it up to speed is gonna be hard work, but once it is up to speed it will still only take that slight flick of the rist to keep that momentum going and indeed to adjust the speed....
Does the same not apply?

dale kid
10-06-2010, 15:29
I have been involved in turntable design and motor control for very many years (far too many, enough in fact to remind me I am now old, retired and decrepit and with too few days left ahead of me!).

There seems (to me at least) after reading with much amusement that there is a load of nonsense being written about new bearings and platters available from third party sources for a certain model of turntable. I wonder what drives this sudden appearence of third party so-called upgrades (apart from commercial desire, my controversial opinion only of course)?

During the early days I was privelege to certain information and had contact with certain designers. Most if not all this information is still privileged and confidential. However some facts are in the open domain and therefore may I be so as to offer the following from ancient notes and thoughts that may (or may not!) be of possible assistance as to why certain components were chosen for production in the first place and have stood the test of time.

I have highlighted in bold some of the points I feel should be taken into consideration when thinking about messing about with a tried and tested design.


Principle Aims:

1) provide turntable drive by means of electronic commutation motor control

2) provide smooth rotation

3) provide very low levels of vibration

4) provide self-starting DC powered turntable

5) provide long-term operational reliability and function

6) provide electronic turntable speed control


Torque and noise:

Torque is produced between the rotor and the stator windings, this will vary periodically depending upon the relative rotational position of rotor and stator. This is due to the varying value of the inter linking magnetic flux in the stator windings induced by the changing relative angular rotor position. With the rotor rotating at constant speed the angle between rotor and stator winding varies at a constant rate and the resulting torque varies periodically with time.

With rotor of "P" poles, commutation rate of "Z" the dominant angular period is given by 2/PZ revolutions.

The resulting ripple frequency is given by PZ/2xN/Hz where "N" is the rotor speed in rpm.

It is this inherent ripple torque that produces periodical speed deviation in the turntable. This ripple torque manifests itself as noise. This may also be referred to as "flutter".

This turntable flutter may be reduced by increasing the number of motor poles resulting in a higher commutation rate and in inverse proportion a decrease in ripple torque frequency. An increase in the number of poles does not reduce the ripple torque amplitude.

Flutter may also be reduced by increasing the moment of inertia of the turntable. However any increase in moment of inertia will reach a practical limit due to the fact that the acceleration time to bring the turntable to a predetermined speed will be prolonged.

For example two turntables with the same style motor may be compared. Example one has the turntable moment of inertia increased by a factor of ten and results in a flutter level of 0.1%. Example two has the number of poles increased by a factor of three and results in a flutter level of 0.1%

Practical design balance may be reached by combining the reduction of moment of inertia in example one and the increase in number of poles in example two.

Further there is a relationship between the number of poles and the frequency of the voltage induced by leakage flux as a result of the rotor mechanism. Increasing the number of poles will result in increased amplitude of the induced voltages. The included voltage amplitude is in proportion to the frequency.

Further improvements in flutter and noise levels may be achieved by the correct balance of chassis moment of inertia, number of motor poles and turntable moment of inertia.


Motor and Chassis:

The main motor support frame when fixed solidly produces no twisting vibration. When the main motor support frame is incorporated into the chassis a torsional vibration will be produced around the axis of the turntable. This results in noise with a similar footprint to the record medium background noise.

Although the dominant ripple torque noise frequency is below the audible noise frequency region this noise contains a multitude of harmonic frequency components.

It has been shown that in an electronically commutated direct drive motor the twisting effect produced in the chassis due to the axial torsional vibration can be reduced to a low noise level by increasing the effective moment of inertia of the chassis not by increasing weight or hardness of the chassis material, turntable platter or spindle shaft.


Design Tests:

It has also been shown that it is more important to optimise chassis design and material than alter the previously defined design parameters of the platter. This follows on from previous flutter tests and is due to the practical limit for optimum platter inertia already being reached and incorporated in the final design of the turntable .

Further tests have shown that peak instantaneous dynamic motor load change demand resulting from increased drag due to demanding groove modulation/stylus interface is affected by final choice of platter moment of inertia.

During tests to determine final platter moment of inertia is has been shown that a heavier platter produced slower motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand whilst a lighter platter produced faster motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand.


May your days be long and peaceful, Dale

John
10-06-2010, 15:49
I guess Dale hits the nail on the head with these 2 statements
1
"During tests to determine final platter moment of inertia is has been shown that a heavier platter produced slower motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand whilst a lighter platter produced faster motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand" Is the motor able to deal with these new demands
2
"It has been shown that in an electronically commutated direct drive motor the twisting effect produced in the chassis due to the axial torsional vibration can be reduced to a low noise level by increasing the effective moment of inertia of the chassis not by increasing weight or hardness of the chassis material, turntable platter or spindle shaft" This suggest that the bigger improvement in sound might come from the chassis

DSJR
10-06-2010, 15:53
So what we *could* assume then, is that the existing platter is fine with the regulator and external supply fitted and the MN bearing may improve things by being quieter and better engineered. Adding a heavier platter to this mix may upset the servo balance and make it worse, yet drastically improving the plinth system (making it more solid, massier and more inert) may make things better as a mass-sink for the motor system...

Perhaps all that's needed is a perspex or acrylic top platter of some sort, with the tonearm mounting plates increased in thickness accordingly (and adding mass as a by-product)..

Hypnotoad
10-06-2010, 16:17
I have been reading all this with great interest and if it were me considering buying one here is what I would do.

Listen to one with and one without, in other words take your regular platter along and swap it in and out on the same table that has the heavier one on it.

That's the only way to really decide, isn't it?

The price is pretty hefty so I would want to be sure before I parted with the money.

Marco
10-06-2010, 19:40
Hi John,


I guess Dale hits the nail on the head with these 2 statements
1
"During tests to determine final platter moment of inertia is has been shown that a heavier platter produced slower motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand whilst a lighter platter produced faster motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand"

2
"It has been shown that in an electronically commutated direct drive motor the twisting effect produced in the chassis due to the axial torsional vibration can be reduced to a low noise level by increasing the effective moment of inertia of the chassis not by increasing weight or hardness of the chassis material, turntable platter or spindle shaft"


Indeed. The first one is particularly relevant to this discussion and suggests a distinct problem with using a high-mass platter, which others and I had alluded to earlier.......

Therefore the jury is still out (big time) on this particular modification.

As for your comment:


This suggest that the bigger improvement in sound might come from the chassis


I've long suspected that far bigger sonic improvements than a new platter offers will come when Mike New (or someone else) designs a better chassis/plinth for the SL-1200/1210 than that which is currently used - something which provides even better isolation from the effects of the environment, so I look forward very much to that becoming available :)

Hey, what a breath of fresh air Dale is, though. Now why can't someone we know very well be as forthcoming with required technical information? ;)

Dale, you'll fit in here just fine, me old son.... :youtheman:

We look forward to reading more of your pearls of wisdom!

Marco.

Marco
10-06-2010, 19:52
Hi Phillip,


Listen to one with and one without, in other words take your regular platter along and swap it in and out on the same table that has the heavier one on it.

That's the only way to really decide, isn't it?


Erm, in a word: 'no'. Did you not read this I wrote earlier?


Basically, I'm looking for any objective evidence which proves beyond reasonable doubt that the extra mass of the new platter does not impact adversely on the speed stability of the SL-1200's drive system in the short, medium or long-term.

The reason I'm being so particular about this is quite simply because our ears would not immediately detect any minute variance in the speed stability of the drive system, but a stylus on a cartridge would.....

Therefore (if that were the case), through time this would manifest itself and translate to our ears as a blurring of the leading edges of notes, causing pitch and timing issues, and a perceived 'slowing down' of the music, even though objectively this may not show up on test apparatus, and through time, subsequent dissatisfaction of music reproduced - even if initially there were improvements sonically in other areas.

In effect, one could unconsciously succeed in eroding the very sonic characteristics which attracted us to the Technics in the first place.


Note in particular the bits in bold. In this instance, a subjective listening test is simply not enough! :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
10-06-2010, 21:25
This new platter is £650 right?????

Bloody 'eck fella's, it's as bad as SME apparently charging £225 or so for a couple of phono sockets, a bit of bent metal and a screening can which fits decades worth of tonearms, so no R&D charges there.....

Apologies, I've already made my feelings on this plain enough and still think a Spacedeck with heavy kit (a graphite platter this one, plus a new arm-pod) and Wave Mechanic supply will be a musically better (or at least equal) sounding machine..

Prices:

AceSpace - £1200
Heavy Kit - £450
Wave Mechanic - £540 approx - re-generates the 50Hz waveform and gives speed adjustment too.

Total - £2190 AND IT'S ALL UK MADE!!!!!

So there!!!

I'll return to my slimy stone now and leave the rest to your bank balances...

I could be wrong here but as far as I know Notingham Analogue no longer exists. After a long illness Tom Fletcher is back but not as NA but as Fletcher Audio.

I know no more than that, so as you were discussing Technics stuff :scratch:



Regards D S D L

hifi_dave
10-06-2010, 21:35
I could be wrong here but as far as I know Notingham Analogue no longer exists. After a long illness Tom Fletcher is back but not as NA but as Fletcher Audio.

I know no more than that, so as you were discussing Technics stuff :scratch:



Regards D S D L

Nottingham Analogue not only 'exists' but is doing better than ever, especially with their export markets. Today, I ordered an Ace Space turntable which will be with me early next week.

Don't believe all you read on forums.

Tom Fletcher is now doing his own thing and I will have samples of his new products very soon.

Marco
10-06-2010, 21:41
Hi Dave,


So what we *could* assume then, is that the existing platter is fine with the regulator and external supply fitted and the MN bearing may improve things by being quieter and better engineered. Adding a heavier platter to this mix may upset the servo balance and make it worse, yet drastically improving the plinth system (making it more solid, massier and more inert) may make things better as a mass-sink for the motor system...


That's kind of it in a nutshell, yeah!


Perhaps all that's needed is a perspex or acrylic top platter of some sort, with the tonearm mounting plates increased in thickness accordingly (and adding mass as a by-product)..

Someone actually suggested this to me the other day, and I think it's an excellent idea worthy of further investigation :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
10-06-2010, 21:50
Nottingham Analogue not only 'exists' but is doing better than ever, especially with their export markets. Today, I ordered an Ace Space turntable which will be with me early next week.

Don't believe all you read on forums.

Tom Fletcher is now doing his own thing and I will have samples of his new products very soon.


I did qualify what I said as "I could be wrong here", but without Tom is it still NA? Thanks for the clarification about NA still being in existence.

I like NA TTs :) One of those foundational analogue experiences for me, was a NA Mentor Reference in Vinyl Tube Audio (now sadly gone), many, years ago in Fortress Road London.


Regards D S D L

Marco
10-06-2010, 21:52
Ahem..... This is one thread I'd like to keep strictly on-topic ;)

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Spectral Morn
10-06-2010, 21:54
Ahem..... This is one thread I'd like to keep strictly on-topic ;)

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

:ner:

No problem ! I'll get my coat...........


Regards D S D L

Marco
10-06-2010, 21:57
Why thank you, Mr Dalek Daftee! :adminpower:

:lol:

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
10-06-2010, 22:41
I do think that many of you are overcomplicating matters. I don't own a Technics any more, but it's clear to me that the structural integrity of the thing is relatively poor. The MN bearing compensates for that not only by the quality of the bearing itself, but also by dint of the solidity and strength that it imparts to the central part of the alloy chassis (think sideways forces and the weakness of the standard bearing). But, even with the MN bearing, some flex in the chassis and the platter remains. As you all know, minute (spurious) movements in any part of a record player are undesirable: the new alloy platter will have the solidity to eliminate the spurious movements/resonances etc that the standard platter most probably suffers from, since it's a flimsy thing.

So, that's the easy part, but what about the motor? You all seem to be hung up on motor torque, as though everyone needs to slip records like DJs - this is patently not the case. If it was, then Brinkmann would have taken a high-torque route with their new DD 'table, but they did not. What is needed is enough torque to maintain rotational velocity, irrespective of the dynamic loading presented by the stylus, bearing etc. So, does the extra mass of the MN platter upset the motor system? Probably not, but a quick tweak of the control circuitry should turn down the torque so that the motor is not unduly compensating for the extra mass and calm equilibrium is restored. That's unlikely. though, for the simple reason that Hamish tried to explain above - the platter will get up to speed and the motor will not have to work very hard to keep it going correctly. Dave Cawley is perfectly qualified to make motor control adjustments if necessary, as he does already with the Motor Dynamics Mod. As I understand things, any of the motor parameters can be adjusted if necessary.

Many of you are looking for problems where they most probably do not exist. I am not interested in either the Technics or the new platter, but I can see the engineering logic behind it - eg providing a completely stable mechanical system for playing records (if you conveniently ignore the Technics' chassis). That the humble Technics ends up costing the same as a Hyperspace is disturbing, but not ultimately relevant to the arguments presented here.

Now, my Kenwood KD-770D has the structural integrity that the Technics lacks, together with a relatively low torque motor and a quality high mass oversize platter - a bit like the Brinkmann! If the Technics can be coaxed into producing music to the same standard as my Kenwood, then it will be doing well!

Marco
10-06-2010, 22:45
Hi Hugo,

Good post, I'll get to it in more detail later :)


Now, my Kenwood KD-770D has the structural integrity that the Technics lacks, together with a relatively low torque motor and a quality high mass oversize platter - a bit like the Brinkmann! If the Technics can be coaxed into producing music to the same standard as my Kenwood, then it will be doing well!


So when do you fancy a shoot-out between our two decks? I'd like to hear the Kenwood that you speak so highly of.

I also have a PR3 on loan at the moment, so the PSUs will be the same, and we have the same tonearm. It'll be dead easy swapping our respective cartridges onto each deck, using the same test system, so we should get a good handle on exactly what each T/T is doing on its own.......

This is too good a chance to miss! Shall we do it at mine or yours? :cool:

Marco.

Marco
10-06-2010, 23:18
However, just before I hit the sack, could you explain how your assertion here:


So, does the extra mass of the MN platter upset the motor system? Probably not, but a quick tweak of the control circuitry should turn down the torque so that the motor is not unduly compensating for the extra mass and calm equilibrium is restored.


...eliminates the validity of the statement Dale made here:


During tests to determine final platter moment of inertia is has been shown that a heavier platter produced slower motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand whilst a lighter platter produced faster motor loop feedback control response to motor load demand


And this, I find a most bizarre remark:


That the humble Technics ends up costing the same as a Hyperspace is disturbing...

Why is it disturbing? Surely all that matters is that both decks represent valid top-notch options for their respective users and don't cost a lunatic amount of money?

My own T/T was recently compared to a £6k VPI, even though it's cost me less than half of that amount so far. Should that also be considered as "disturbing", but in a somewhat different sense?

Personally, I consider it rather "disturbing" that a top-spec LP12 (with Keel subchassis, Trampolin base, Ekos SE arm, Akiva cartridge) now costs over £10k!!

Then on top of that you can add:

Radikal External Power supply - £2550.

(£4500 for the Klimax matching solid case version).

Urika on-board preamplifier (powered by Radikal) - £2300.

(£6200 for Klimax matching solid case version).

:mental: :mental:

*THAT* is what I call "disturbing"!!!

But each to his or her own, I guess ;)

Marco.

John
11-06-2010, 04:58
I still think there is a lot more to come from the 1210 Marco in terms of resolution and dynamics
I kind of think why not get something like a PHampton and put a really good cart it would take it several steps further

Marco
11-06-2010, 06:07
Hi John,

Undoubtedly, mate :)

It's by no means a finished project - things can always be improved.

Whether or not I'll go for the new platter remains to be seen, but I'd certainly look at improving the plinth in due course when suitable options become available, and then of course there's either the HE PSU, Paul Hynes PR5 or a bespoke Tube Distinctions PSU from Anthony to consider, not to mention the fitting of a Decca, SPU or EMT XSD-15 cartridge at some point - so lots to be done!

However, I think my deck is doing pretty well as it is comparing favourably with the £6k VPI you owned (considering it only has a Jelco arm and Denon cartridge on it), and of course the Garrard 401s, TD124s, SP10s, PL71s and such like I've put it against on many occasions, where it's more than held its own.

It'll be going up against a superb Kenwood L-07D (one of the best D/Ds ever made, and IMO superior to an SP10) and a rather nice Rubikon-fettled LP12 shortly, so no doubt that'll be another learning curve to add to my overall listening experiences :cool:

No, the fun and games, Techy-wise, are far from over! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Ammonite Audio
11-06-2010, 06:22
Marco

I would like to point to Martin's deck, which has the motor dynamics mod, the only example that I have heard; and it does sound very good. As I understand things, that mod alters and settles down the PLL response and (significantly in my view) reduces the motor torque. It works and I'm surprised that Sound HiFi don't make more of it. The standard motor system's PLL is always a bit on "the ragged edge" - Dale may well be right about a slower motor feedback loop response with a heavier platter, in which case all is fine and dandy. If he is not correct, then the Motor Dynamics mod tailored to the effect of the extra mass would undoubtedly settle things down. All I'm saying is that the motor control system can be tweaked to compliment the MN platter if necessary: I don't know how change the loop filter characteristics but Sound HiFi certainly do.

As for the total cost, very nearly £2000 for a fully hot-rodded Technics (without an arm) does pitch it against established value opposition such as the Hyperspace which is only a few hundred more. Yes they are different beasts, catering for different tastes perhaps, but the comparison is valid in the sense that they both punch above their natural weight. I don't think that you can necessarily say the same for VPI or Linn.

Sometime we will arrange for a session. Music is not particularly on my mind this week, but I will arrange something.

Mike_New
11-06-2010, 06:43
What confuses me about all this concern for motor torque and response times and infinite values is this. People are demanding that Dave who sells my platters in the UK and Europe, produce detailed evidence of performance. I would have thought that maybe some might think that these figures should be provided by others.

If Anthony has concerns about ‘INFINITE” values then perhaps he may know enough to provide us with the mathematical equations governing same.

Marco
11-06-2010, 07:19
Hi Hugo,


I would like to point to Martin's deck, which has the motor dynamics mod, the only example that I have heard; and it does sound very good. As I understand things, that mod alters and settles down the PLL response and (significantly in my view) reduces the motor torque. It works and I'm surprised that Sound HiFi don't make more of it.


I've also heard Martin's deck; it's excellent and clearly suffers no ill effects from having had the motor dynamics mod fitted (whether or not though Martin had the opportunity to analyse its effect in isolation, I'm unsure), but it certainly is a valid modification option for the Technics in certain circumstances.

I say "certain circumstances" because when I spoke with Dave about having it done on my deck, he advised against it, purely because he didn't consider it being compatible with the 'high-mass' route I had chosen with the Jelco SA-750 and bigger counterweight balance, and the heavy headshell I was using along with the DL-103SA (and it tracking at 2.6g).

He felt that the effects of stylus drag may have been an issue if the torque on my T/T was lowered with the motor dynamics mod, so therefore this is something I would certainly have to consider very carefully should reducing the motor torque be necessary to successfully accommodate the new platter.

It also raises concerns on a wider issue about how successfully the motor and control circuitry will deal with the inclusion of a high-mass platter, because if stylus drag is liable to exist simply with having in use a high-mass tonearm/headshell and a cartridge operating at higher than normal VTF, with the lightweight stock platter, then how will it cope with the much greater demands in that respect of maintaining speed accuracy (and preventing stylus drag) with a high-mass platter, when the motor torque has been reduced accordingly to facilitate its use?

I'd suggest that some people ponder that one quite carefully.....................


Dale may well be right about a slower motor feedback loop response with a heavier platter, in which case all is fine and dandy.


At the moment I suspect he is right, and the only thing which will change my mind is when I see undisputable evidence to the contrary in the form of relevant test measurements.

Dave's a self-confessed measurements freak (and very good at what he does), so now is the time to show what his multitude of test equipment is capable of and produce some objective data to confirm the efficacy of the new high-mass platter. He could start with carrying out some wow & flutter measurements of the motor unit before and after the heavier platter is used, and then submit them for our perusal.


As for the total cost, very nearly £2000 for a fully hot-rodded Technics (without an arm) does pitch it against established value opposition such as the Hyperspace which is only a few hundred more. Yes they are different beasts, catering for different tastes perhaps, but the comparison is valid in the sense that they both punch above their natural weight. I don't think that you can necessarily say the same for VPI or Linn.


No, but the fact that a £2k T/T (or thereabouts) is able to compete with a £6k one, or perhaps more, undoubtedly says something about the modified SL-1200/1210's SPPV, not to mention how much one pays for a 'desirable badge' in the hi-end T/T market! ;)

I think you'll agree though that your use of the word "disturbing" was somewhat melodramatic.

I agree with you regarding the Hyperspace, but then I've never directly compared one to a fully modified Technics, so I've no idea what the result would be in terms of which is better, sonically. Therefore it's impossible to come to a decision as to which one would offer the highest SPPV, so at the moment such comparisons are somewhat moot.


Sometime we will arrange for a session.


That would be great, as I'd love to hear what the Kenwood does in comparison with my deck, so I can relate to your eulogising it here.

I'm not 'precious' about my stuff and don't seek to remain within a comfort zone, so I enjoy submitting the equipment I use to scrutiny against other good gear because it's the only way you really know if what you've got is genuinely good, or if you're just kidding yourself on........... Present company excluded, there are plenty of people on forums guilty of doing precisely that! ;)


Music is not particularly on my mind this week, but I will arrange something.

I fully understand, mate. Just PM me when you're up for it :cool:

Marco.

Marco
11-06-2010, 07:45
Hi Mike,


What confuses me about all this concern for motor torque and response times and infinite values is this. People are demanding that Dave who sells my platters in the UK and Europe, produce detailed evidence of performance. I would have thought that maybe some might think that these figures should be provided by others.


Why exactly? Dave's the engineer and the one with all the relevant test equipment, and so therefore best placed to supply the necessary evidence with which to prove the merits of this modification, certainly from a technical point of view.

Normally when a manufacturer designs a new product some rationale is provided to explain its efficacy. They don't just say: 'here it is, folks, I think it's great, and I don't have to justify myself'. Where would that get us?

When you put a new product for sale onto the marketplace, then quite naturally it will be subjected to scrutiny, which is where forums such as AOS come in. Or do you have some other view?

This is not about scoring points, Mike; it's about putting into the public domain information which helps potential buyers of the new platter to come to an informed decision. Surely that can only be a good thing? :)


If Anthony has concerns about ‘INFINITE” values then perhaps he may know enough to provide us with the mathematical equations governing same.

I'm sure Anthony will be along later to add his thoughts.

Marco.

MartinT
11-06-2010, 08:42
I've also heard Martin's deck; it's excellent and clearly suffers no ill effects from having had the motor dynamics mod fitted (whether or not though Martin had the opportunity to analyse its effect in isolation, I'm unsure), but it certainly is a valid modification option for the Technics in certain circumstances.

Unfortunately not, I ordered the deck with the mod installed. All I will say is that it has no problems unearthing 'uber' bass, as Dave calls it, and is extremely pitch stable.


It also raises concerns on a wider issue about how successfully the motor and control circuitry will deal with the inclusion of a high-mass platter, because if stylus drag is liable to exist simply with having in use a high-mass tonearm/headshell and a cartridge operating at higher than normal VTF, with the lightweight stock platter, then how will it cope with the much greater demands in that respect of maintaining speed accuracy with a high-mass platter, when the motor torque has been reduced accordingly to facilitate its use?

This is interesting. If one assumes that in steady-state mode with no groove modulation the Technics can maintain correct speed (i.e. it compensates for stylus drag in the groove), then one can visualise modulation as transient additional drag. Since the inertia of a heavy platter is higher then that transient will have less slow-down effect than with a standard platter. Of course, the motor has more work to do to bring the heavy platter back up to speed but it's from a smaller error.

As the motor control is a closed loop analogue circuit, the compensation in reality is continuous and tiny. Like everyone, I want to hear the MN platter for myself but, based on my 'medium weight' current setup using the Copper mat, I can say that the sound quality is better than with the original platter in every way: pitch stability, dynamic swing and tonal neutrality.

anthonyTD
11-06-2010, 08:56
What confuses me about all this concern for motor torque and response times and infinite values is this. People are demanding that Dave who sells my platters in the UK and Europe, produce detailed evidence of performance. I would have thought that maybe some might think that these figures should be provided by others.


If Anthony has concerns about ‘INFINITE” values then perhaps he may know enough to provide us with the mathematical equations governing same.
hi mike,
there are people here who are much more qualified than me to offer such information yourself and dave included, and i suspect that will be the case at some point when the platter becomes available to the genral public, please dont confuse me with someone who may have a vested interest in condemning you, dave, or any of the mods for the 1210 offered by you both, as stated when i first started contributing to this thread my concerns are genuine and IMHO all it would take to put minds at rest is some comparisons by yourselves on the before and after to show improvements or drawbacks, surely you can see that this would be the best opportunity to advertise and promote the new platter and therefore convince the good people here that it's the right way to go?
if my input here as a bystander is causing discomfort to either yourself or dave i will understand and will therefore contribute no more to this thread.
regards,anthony,TD...

Marco
11-06-2010, 09:07
Hi Martin,


Unfortunately not, I ordered the deck with the mod installed. All I will say is that it has no problems unearthing 'uber' bass, as Dave calls it, and is extremely pitch stable.


Having heard your deck, I can't argue with that. As you know, of course, mine does the same by using a slightly different approach.

I suspect that the motor dynamics mod is undoubtedly meritorious for people using 'normal' tonearms/headshells and cartridges. However, now you've got the copper mat and Dynavector fitted, you may wish to revisit things and ask Dave to return the torque of your T/T to normal, and compare the sonic effect both ways. I'd be interested to know the outcome.


As the motor control is a closed loop analogue circuit, the compensation in reality is continuous and tiny.


Perhaps, but the question is - is it enough to cause pitch and timing issues not immediately detectable by our ears in the short term, but manifesting itself in the long term in a way that’s detrimental to our enjoyment of the music reproduced - and worse, perhaps also causing long-term damage to the motor?

For me, this is not something with which I'm willing to speculate £650, without first the provision of measurable evidence which allays my concerns.

I think the problem is I feel that the electrical element of the circuit is not being considered enough in conjunction with the mechanical. Now whilst many turntables are largely mechanical, the Technics does, by design, have a significant electrical component, therefore I suspect that some more consideration in that area is needed before we'll get to the root of whether or not the new high-mass platter solves more problems than it creates......


Like everyone, I want to hear the MN platter for myself....


So are you going to be the guinea pig? This is what we all want to know, dude! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

MartinT
11-06-2010, 09:18
<shrink>
I'm still suffering from the cost of the Dynavector! I'll think about it...

Marco
11-06-2010, 09:26
Hi Anthony,


IMHO all it would take to put minds at rest is some comparisons by yourselves on the before and after to show improvements or drawbacks, surely you can see that this would be the best opportunity to advertise and promote the new platter and therefore convince the good people here that it's the right way to go?


Indeed! And the fact that certain key people are being rather reticent in that respect does not help matters, but hey ho, we will soldier on regardless..... :)

Marco.

Marco
11-06-2010, 09:32
<shrink>
I'm still suffering from the cost of the Dynavector! I'll think about it...

Hahahahaha..... :lol: And don't forget your tyres!

Hey, someone's gotta do it or how else are we gonna know what it does in the short term, sonically? Do you want to go halfers on one, then? ;)

Then we can arrange a sesh and whoever likes it the most on his deck can keep it and give the other person their money back to order one later, or not, as the case may be...... :)

Marco.

MartinT
11-06-2010, 09:42
And don't forget your tyres!

I almost had and now you've reminded me :(
Not to mention Roger Waters tickets for next year on top of F1 and Paul McCartney this year...

Ah well, you only live once.

I need to get summer out of the way (the cost of a holiday and paving my garden patio are looming) and will then review my funds.

Marco
11-06-2010, 09:47
No worries, matey - I have similar demands in that respect, so I suspect that this may be a winter project for us to do :)

Hey, at least it'll give Dave plenty of time to fine-tune things and optimise the results! ;)

Marco.

chris@panteg
11-06-2010, 09:48
Just got this from Dave

chris@panteg
11-06-2010, 09:50
And this one

Marco
11-06-2010, 10:01
LOL - love it! And how does it sound then, Chris? Spill! Are you using it with the HE PSU?

Oh, and is it on trial or have you paid for it? :) ;)

If it's the latter then Dave must now be completely satisfied with the results if he's selling them to people......

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
11-06-2010, 10:07
166 post around a subject based in reality on a fall out between two people... i might not be the most intelegent person here, nor am i that great at expressing my self through text... but one thing i do have his emotional intelegence and it suprises me that the following is not blindingly obvious -

this forum is like a house
marcos house if you will
we are all welcomed in to marcos house with a smile
many of us have got a great deal out of chatting to marco and other folk in marcos house
dave was once welcome in marcos house
dave never really fit in to well
he had his views but never really felt he could express them too well
marco made a request of dave that dave didnt like
dave said no
marco said yes
dave said NO!
marco said sod ya then get out of my house
dave said fine sod you
hamish and a few other people tried to help
hamish and a few others banged thier heads against the walls
dave said let me back in in 2 days or i wont post again
dave was not let in in 2 days
a week later a breakthough
dave and marco finaly speak
dave says he might post again
this thread is started
dave isnt happy about posting as he is still testing his product
marco gets pissed of with dave for not posting
dave says well sod him then im not posting again
more people get involved
dave doesnt feel he needs to justify him self
marco thinks he should
dave doesnt care
then marco says whatever i dont care either
some time later the thread is reignited
marco still demands dave post
dave doesnt post
dave doesnt care that marco wants him to post
dave doesnt feel he needs this forums aproval of his products
that winds up marco
marco makes comments on the forum that wind up dave
the situation is made worse
that winds up marco
marco makes comments on the forum that wind up dave
the situation is made worse
that winds up marco
marco makes comments on the forum that wind up dave
the situation is made worse

thats about the jist of it ... its a situation that is now unlikely to change...
by all means discus daves products like any other ... speculation is indeed part of this hobby... but goading a previous member to post when he does not want to is not... and i repeat NOT going to get you anywhere

The Vinyl Adventure
11-06-2010, 10:08
LOL - love it! And how does it sound then, Chris? Spill! Are you using it with the HE PSU?

Oh, and is it on trial or have you paid for it? :) ;)

If it's the latter then Dave must now be completely satisfied with the results if he's selling them to people......

Marco.

its just a photo of it not at chris's house

The Vinyl Adventure
11-06-2010, 10:18
as a side note my good mate joe who is here today says "dont you know there is a world cup?!" ;)

Marco
11-06-2010, 10:33
its just a photo of it not at chris's house

Haha....:doh: :lol:

Well, when Chris wrote:


Just got this from Dave...


It came across as if he'd just got the new platter delivered, particularly as Martin and I were discussing who was going to buy one first!

And yes, I'll be watching the World Cup later :)

Marco.

Marco
11-06-2010, 10:50
by all means discus daves products like any other ... speculation is indeed part of this hobby... but goading a previous member to post when he does not want to is not... and i repeat NOT going to get you anywhere


Hamish, it's got nothing to do with "goading" him to post - he can do what he wants. I'm past caring. I'm just making a valid observation (as was Anthony), as indeed we're entitled to do.

The fact is, if I feel it's pertinent to make that point during the discussion, then I'll make it.


but goading a previous member to post when he does not want to is not... and i repeat NOT going to get you anywhere


And you moaning about me mentioning it is not, I repeat NOT going to get you anywhere either! :eyebrows: ;)

So................... Let's not have any more posts like #171, please (although your summary therein was reasonably accurate). All I would say is that with regard to this:


dave doesnt feel he needs this forums aproval of his products
that winds up marco


...that's simply not the case. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with AOS 'approving' Dave's products. That's for individuals to decide for themselves. It's about his customers here who are considering buying a new platter being sufficiently informed of its expected efficacy in order for them to decide to buy one or not, unless he's planning on sending out test samples for evaluation purposes to potential customers first. I think not.

Quite simply, if Dave didn't want to be questioned about the new platter, then he should've kept it quiet until the design (and how it works in conjunction with the control circuitry/motor of the SL-1200) was finalised. Once you mention something interesting, people quite naturally want to know more.

At the moment such information is next to non-existent, particularly with regard to the concerns that people have raised on this thread.

In my view there is no excuse for this, and the fact that he patently doesn't care what people think, I consider as rather arrogant and unhelpful, not to mention a slap in the face to those of us who've supported his business financially and otherwise since he became a member here.

*That*, muchacho, is what "winds up Marco"!

Anyway, if you see me mentioning Mr Cawley's lack of contribution to this discussion again in future, for whatever reason, just ignore it :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
11-06-2010, 11:00
Righto
just puttin the facts out there ... Since this thread is requesting facts i felt it pertinent to point some of them out ;)

Marco
11-06-2010, 11:04
No problemo - time for lunch now, me thinks! http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1817/character0104.gif (http://img820.imageshack.us/i/character0104.gif/)

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1628/freepartysmileys789.gif (http://img820.imageshack.us/i/freepartysmileys789.gif/)

Marco.

DSJR
11-06-2010, 11:59
Marco, you remember what I said, and you said, and I replied...

At this moment in time, the platter doesn't exist in the market. Wanting answers NOW won't do any good, will it?

Sometimes the best way to deal with schoolboys exhibiting "behaviour" is to ignore them and that gets 'em really mad because they don't have an audience to strut in front of...

Marco
11-06-2010, 12:06
Hi Dave,


At this moment in time, the platter doesn't exist in the market. Wanting answers NOW won't do any good, will it?


We're not necessarily looking for "answers"; just some feedback or updates on developments and/or replies to concerns some customers of his have raised. I don't think that this is at all unreasonable.

It'll be interesting to see when the platter does exist on the market just how much information we receive with regard to the issues that have been discussed here........ ;)

Anyway, let's not dwell any further on this and return to discussing the product concerned :)

Marco.

hifi_dave
11-06-2010, 12:54
I did qualify what I said as "I could be wrong here", but without Tom is it still NA? Thanks for the clarification about NA still being in existence.

I like NA TTs :) One of those foundational analogue experiences for me, was a NA Mentor Reference in Vinyl Tube Audio (now sadly gone), many, years ago in Fortress Road London.


Regards D S D L

Tom hasn't been with Nottingham Analogue for around 6 years or more and they continue without him.

As for ' is it still NA ?', you could ask exactly the same of Michell Engineering, SME, Spendor, Sugden, Quad etc, etc, all companies carrying on very nicely without their founder.

Meanwhile, Tom is making his own range of products and I should have something to show in a few weeks. What this will be, I have no idea at this time.

Mike_New
11-06-2010, 23:51
I above all would like to resolve all the concerns people have. Indeed the platter could be made less heavy, or more so if required!! Unfortunately I only have a Tektronix 475 scope and am not set up with all the measuring equipment needed to produce the measurements required. David among others has. Perhaps in the future HFW will take on the challenge.

What I have done is to design and machine a totally new platter which I know has illiminated most of the shortcomings inherent in the existing one and which all of you were looking foward to since the release of my High Precision bearing. I guess what we need now are some listening evaluations. I honestly do not believe that a large mass of electronic data and measurments is really going to mean a great deal to anyone, as the numbers will be to small to be meaningful or even to be accurately and concisely measured. As Tony has suggested any differences may be infinitely small and therefore below the mean noise threshold of the masuring device.

There is a particular user in the US who is using my platter with two copper mats plus center weight!! That make the total weight about 10Kg!!!!! and his initial response to me is very impressive, however it is not my position to pre-empt any comments he may post in the near future. He is probably taking his time over doing a series of subjective listening tests.

In order to resolve this impass I have suggested to Dave that he provide the platter to someone like Martin or Chris or Marco so that real listening tests can be conducted, perhaps using a series of specificly chosen records from Jazz, vocal, through to classics and in particular Piano.

I can undestand the concerns of all, the platter is not an inexpensive addition to the SL. However Dave and I are looking at ways to get the price down.

John
12-06-2010, 05:07
Mike
I think this would really help those who are interested in your platter

Marco
12-06-2010, 09:27
Hi Mike,

Your kind gesture is very much appreciated and this now drastically changes the situation for the better! :)

The problem has never been with you, as you show the right kind of attitude and I've always found you very forthcoming and helpful.


In order to resolve this impass I have suggested to Dave that he provide the platter to someone like Martin or Chris or Marco so that real listening tests can be conducted, perhaps using a series of specificly chosen records from Jazz, vocal, through to classics and in particular Piano.


Dave should be thanked here, too. Look, this has always been about people interested in buying the platter being given as much information about how it works (and sounds) as possible - there is no other agenda!

So let's move things on positively now so we can all benefit. Let's face it, realistically, no-one's going to shell out £650 for a completely unknown quantity, so if you guys (Dave and you) want to sell platters, then lending out a test sample to potential buyers is the only way forward.

I'd still like to see Dave produce some sort of meaningful test results, if possible, as I suggested earlier, to back-up our subjective observations.

However in the meantime, what I'd suggest is that he sends a platter and an HE PSU to Martin, with full instructions on how to fit the former, and providing Martin is ok with this, we have a bake-off at his place to listen to the platter/HE PSU and carry out some comparisons, and that Chris and me (and also Hamish?) attend. We can thrash a date out between us that's mutually convenient and then report the results later on the forum.

Is everyone involved agreeable with this? :cool:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
12-06-2010, 10:30
erm ... yeah... not sure of the likely hood of


he sends a platter and an HE PSU to Martin

at your suggestion to be honest marco... perhaps you should wait for someone to buy one when dave and mike are ready for general release and have published some of there findings.... ....

Marco
12-06-2010, 11:26
Hamish,

Mike's already said that Dave will send one of us a platter (unless Dave refuses Mike's suggestion, which I'd like to think won't be the case):


In order to resolve this impass I have suggested to Dave that he provide the platter to someone like Martin or Chris or Marco...


:)

So I thought Dave (when he's happy with it) could also send an HE PSU for evaluation, along with the platter, as the latter apparently won't perform optimally without the former........

Anyway, let's see what happens. I just wanted to thank Mike for his gesture and see if Martin was ok for a bake-off at his when all the bits are in place :cool:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
12-06-2010, 13:47
Hmmm... I'm not sure some parties involved are being put in entierly comfortable positions by this marco.
If I were in your shoes I would concider bowing out of all of this at least for the time being. Mike might have suggested that dave send out a platter to someone... But let's face it the chance of that someone being you, or indeed being conected to you in the way you propose, is IMHO small.
I think your involment in any bakeoff is likely to put others involved in an uncomfortable situation concidering the circumstances.
I know you are interested in the platter and it's merits or otherwise, but it might be wise concidering your relationship with dave as it stands if you sit this one out... Just an observation of course... And I hope you can take it for it's good intentions!

Marco
12-06-2010, 13:56
Hamish,

Let's just see what happens. Mike's obviously mentioned it to Dave, otherwise he wouldn't have posted to that effect here.

Sorry, there's no way I'm 'bowing out' of anything, and nor should I be expected to! I'm shocked that you should even suggest that. Dave can do what he wants, and I'll do the same.

Now I appreciate your advice, mate, but it's not helping matters, so please, unless you have something to add regarding the proposed sonic effect of the platter, or anything else in relation to that, leave it there.

Mike,

Keep us posted on the platter loan sample situation :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
12-06-2010, 14:00
Hmmm.... I shall leave it there marco, but it is only honest well meaning advice I offer!
I have no motives other than to try and keep a level of peace!

Rare Bird
12-06-2010, 14:07
Hmmm.... I shall leave it there marco


A wise choice ;)

Marco
12-06-2010, 14:07
I shall leave it there marco, but it is only honest well meaning advice I offer!
I have no motives other than to try and keep a level of peace!


Thanks. Yes I know, but no disrespect, I don't need a personal advisor, so please no more pearls of wisdom.

Let's just see how the situation develops. Mike's obviously trying to help, so let's see what he comes up with :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
12-06-2010, 14:11
Hmmm....

DSJR
12-06-2010, 14:12
Hamish,

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the main core of Techie Tweakers in the UK tend to post on here. Indeed, I doubt that David Price would have been quite as interested financially (on his own turntable) without the likes of Marco waxing so vociferously about how good this deck can become.

When one admires a piece of hifi gear as much as Marco does his Techie deck and has the finances available to purchase these upgrades and post after post on how wonderful they are, thus helping sales of these upgrades, then I honestly think that he should be allowed to field test it. The same with power supplies. The Paul Hynes derived supply looks to be a genuine alternative to the Timestep - why should one person have the monopoly on this? - and if it gives a good performance, then Timestep should be able to test it and either condemn it because of genuine measurable shortcomings, or praise it as another excellent alternative (and update the Timestep accordingly ;)).
FFS people, a happy and delighted Marco would bring in LOADS of extra online business - and I'm sure that if he was loaned a prototype, he would treat it as such and report accordingly.

I remember when Linn were about to launch some lower cost speakers. They were then caught between the soggy, over bloated sound of the LP12 of the period and the "correct" balance of CD (playing badly mastered material which was often too brightly lit in balance). They acquired samples of all the best selling lower-cost speakers (I saw them all at the factory and all the usual suspects were there from Heybrook, Misiion, Mordaunt Short etc.. and probably Royd as well) to find out what Joe-Public liked to buy. I can't say I liked the first issue Index speaker, but later ones were better and the Helix rather good..

I just wish ego's didn't get put out of joint so easily, as improving the Techie is an important issue, especially as the deck with most mods still fits in so well to a domestic setting (much as I greatly admire the Terminator Tonearm, I don't think many lady music-lovers would give it house room :lol:)

That's my lot on this. Good luck and I sincerely hope the platter brings about an improvement to the table and also at a lower cost if this can be achieved.

Paul Hynes
12-06-2010, 14:50
Hello DaveR,

From historical experience I would be disinclined to expect an unbiased power supply comparison from Timestep.

An independent assessment would be good.

Regards
Paul

Marco
12-06-2010, 15:41
Hamish,

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the main core of Techie Tweakers in the UK tend to post on here. Indeed, I doubt that David Price would have been quite as interested financially (on his own turntable) without the likes of Marco waxing so vociferously about how good this deck can become.

When one admires a piece of hifi gear as much as Marco does his Techie deck and has the finances available to purchase these upgrades and post after post on how wonderful they are, thus helping sales of these upgrades, then I honestly think that he should be allowed to field test it. The same with power supplies. The Paul Hynes derived supply looks to be a genuine alternative to the Timestep - why should one person have the monopoly on this? - and if it gives a good performance, then Timestep should be able to test it and either condemn it because of genuine measurable shortcomings, or praise it as another excellent alternative (and update the Timestep accordingly ;)).
FFS people, a happy and delighted Marco would bring in LOADS of extra online business - and I'm sure that if he was loaned a prototype, he would treat it as such and report accordingly.

I remember when Linn were about to launch some lower cost speakers. They were then caught between the soggy, over bloated sound of the LP12 of the period and the "correct" balance of CD (playing badly mastered material which was often too brightly lit in balance). They acquired samples of all the best selling lower-cost speakers (I saw them all at the factory and all the usual suspects were there from Heybrook, Misiion, Mordaunt Short etc.. and probably Royd as well) to find out what Joe-Public liked to buy. I can't say I liked the first issue Index speaker, but later ones were better and the Helix rather good..

I just wish ego's didn't get put out of joint so easily, as improving the Techie is an important issue, especially as the deck with most mods still fits in so well to a domestic setting (much as I greatly admire the Terminator Tonearm, I don't think many lady music-lovers would give it house room :lol:)

That's my lot on this. Good luck and I sincerely hope the platter brings about an improvement to the table and also at a lower cost if this can be achieved.

Superb stuff, Dave. You've hit the nail on the head. There's nothing I can really add to that, other than to say let's hope it sinks in, particularly the bit in bold, which I hope Dave hasn't forgotten :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
12-06-2010, 15:45
Hamish,

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the main core of Techie Tweakers in the UK tend to post on here. Indeed, I doubt that David Price would have been quite as interested financially (on his own turntable) without the likes of Marco waxing so vociferously about how good this deck can become.

When one admires a piece of hifi gear as much as Marco does his Techie deck and has the finances available to purchase these upgrades and post after post on how wonderful they are, thus helping sales of these upgrades, then I honestly think that he should be allowed to field test it. The same with power supplies. The Paul Hynes derived supply looks to be a genuine alternative to the Timestep - why should one person have the monopoly on this? - and if it gives a good performance, then Timestep should be able to test it and either condemn it because of genuine measurable shortcomings, or praise it as another excellent alternative (and update the Timestep accordingly ;)).
FFS people, a happy and delighted Marco would bring in LOADS of extra online business - and I'm sure that if he was loaned a prototype, he would treat it as such and report accordingly.



im just trying to help avoid a situation the ferther exacerbates this 'situation'
... anyway ... im out of all this now, it none of my business anyway....

Marco
12-06-2010, 16:49
I think it's best to just go with the flow now, matey, and see what happens from here.......

Hopefully Mike will let us know more about his suggestion in due course :cool:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
12-06-2010, 17:02
There's a bargepole that I'm going to try to avoid touching for not touching this whole subject from now on I think...
I have bette things to concern my self with - namely lying on my sofa with the window wide open and the sun pouring in whilst listening to my hifi, drinking icy cold guinness and smoking - It's much more a pleasant thing to be doing than worrying my self unnessarily about who might or might not be getting pissed off with who ... Footballs on soon to and despite not being a fan a such, I am very much a fan of going to the pub with a shit load of my mates and drinking even more icy cold Guinness!

Marco
12-06-2010, 17:10
Yay, now that sounds like a plan - enjoy! :cool:

We're just about to barbecue a rack of lamb and open up some vino before watching the England game, which I predict they'll win 2-1 :cheers:

Marco.

DSJR
12-06-2010, 17:17
Superb stuff, Dave. You've hit the nail on the head. There's nothing I can really add to that, other than to say let's hope it sinks in :)

Marco.

I thought I'd gone too far and dealt with it accordingly. But thanks anyway :)

Marco
12-06-2010, 18:38
No worries. Just one thing before I go off and watch the football...


The Paul Hynes derived supply looks to be a genuine alternative to the Timestep


Oh it most certainly is, trust me ;)


why should one person have the monopoly on this?


They won't on AOS. Products are judged here solely on their sonic merit, value for money and reliability, regardless of who designs them. There is, and never will be, any favouritism!

That's simply the way it's got to be.

Marco.

chris@panteg
13-06-2010, 00:13
Oh Gawd

So sorry to mislead you Marco ' the photo's were just that ' which Dave sent me in his Soundhifi email, i don't have the MK new platter .

Hope you enjoyed the footie and England's new Star Goalkeeper, all of Scotland must be so pleased:)

Citation16
13-06-2010, 02:36
[QUOTE=Mike_New;129101] There is a particular user in the US (Canada really) who is using my platter with two copper mats plus center weight!! That make the total weight about 10Kg!!!!! and his initial response to me is very impressive, however it is not my position to pre-empt any comments he may post in the near future. He is probably taking his time over doing a series of subjective listening tests. ./QUOTE]

I did get the new platter from Mike - after some small modifications to a high capacitor on the drive board, so that the platter turned freely, the platter was finally ready to play.

The turntable is now using Mike's bearing and his 12 pound aluminium platter
+ 2 copper platters ( 2X4 pounds) + the concave Oracle platter + the 3 pound brass center weight.

The TT is also on a maple hard wood piece and using the multi-element cones from Adona corp (http://www.adonacorporation.com/tweaks.html)

My findings are compared to the previous iteration with the standard Technics platter and the 3 copper platters & the Oracle mat.

Using the Mike New custom aluminium platter definitely brings far superior sonics still using the modified RB 250 and the clearaudio virtuoso cart. :

1) increased depth of field
2) better separation of instruments
3) more sonic and voice information & I hear the lyrics more clearly
4) more air and space
5) more layers of sound
6) much better precision of instruments placement
7) more bass

The technics with the custom bearing and custom platter makes the whole sound incredibly lush, stable and every note and voices are held to the right pitch,

But this time the pitch is not only dead on, but with much more body, depth and substance

Its a whole new & different turntable now - like a 4 cylinder car morphed into an 8 cylinder : does all with greater ease and oumf !

When I played the famous solo by Victoria de Los Angeles, in the Faure requiem, the voice is evermore stable, forcefull and full bodied -

I also like to play Peter Gabriel " Security " album for all its phenomenal bass and complex music layers & I was not disappointed
as the bass is more deep and clean instead of being bloated.

I suspect that the original platter with the rubber undercoating does not help matters at all, as it may very well dull the sonics when I used 3 copper platters;
The 12 pound custom aliminium platter + the two copper matts makes for a much much more improoved sound.

Interestingly, I first tried the small chrome Adona cones under the maple base and pointing down into the 1.25 inch granite piece held by the Target wall TT mount.

The difference with the larger muti-element cones made the sound more open and clearner - go figure...

Getting back to the Mike New platter and bearing, I am a very happy camper & will do more listening and tests in the near future,

Yves

Marco
13-06-2010, 06:48
Hi Yves,

Sounds fab! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the new platter.


after some small modifications to a high capacitor on the drive board, so that the platter turned freely, the platter was finally ready to play.


That sort of thing worries me, though, as I don't recall Mike mentioning in his original instructions that this would be necessary. Unfortunately it takes this modification yet further away from being 'fit & play' for the non-technically minded.

However, that aside, it certainly sounds as if the sonic results of using the new platter are very positive :)

All we need now on this side of the pond is a sample to listen to, so that people here can form some meaningful conclusions...............................

Marco.

Marco
13-06-2010, 06:52
Oh Gawd

So sorry to mislead you Marco ' the photo's were just that ' which Dave sent me in his Soundhifi email, i don't have the MK new platter .

Hope you enjoyed the footie and England's new Star Goalkeeper, all of Scotland must be so pleased

Lol - no worries, Chris! It was just the way you came in with your pics at that particular moment :eyebrows:

Regarding the match last night, I thought you guys were unlucky. On any other night you'd have won fairly comfortably. I'm sure Rob Green will recover to have a good tournament, as will the rest of the England team, and I still think they will get to the semis :)

Marco.

chris@panteg
13-06-2010, 09:49
Marco ' i would suggest a visit to Dave's , have a listen and then he can fit it for you .

You know you want it , just in time for that bake off :) .

Go on Go on .

YNWaN
13-06-2010, 10:47
The turntable is now using Mike's bearing and his 12 pound aluminium platter
+ 2 copper platters ( 2X4 pounds) + the concave Oracle platter + the 3 pound brass center weight.

And have you tried it without the plethora of extra platters, mats and weights?

chris@panteg
13-06-2010, 10:58
Yes it does seem a tad excessive , i would have thought 1 copper mat should suffice ?

chris@panteg
13-06-2010, 10:59
Or just the Herbies mat on top of the MN

DSJR
13-06-2010, 11:17
I was going to ask the same thing...

How much is each copper platter?

After this amount spent on the standard article, one would think a complete turntable upgrade would have been in order and there are some fascinating alternatives around out there that may not need several copper mats, an "orrible" concave platter and yet more mass plonked on top of the record...

Citation16
13-06-2010, 14:01
And have you tried it without the plethora of extra platters, mats and weights?

Yes, it has occurred to me to listen only to the new Mike New platter.

The fast answer is that I would have had to reconfigure the arm board height.
as I reversed the arm board depression so that its now level with the turntable plinth. The arm board comes from audiomods in the UK http://www.audiomods.co.uk/technicsarm.html
So I simply kept two copper mats, instead of 3, because the New platter is a little bit higher than the standard/original platter.

I am to soon get the micrometer arm from audiomods & it may have the adjustment range to just try the Mike New platter or with one copper platter.

Also, I made other modifications to the TT such as getting rid of the feet; using a hardwood support on its belly and binding the innards with removable silicone type weatherproofing (see previous posts)

As for the cost of the copper platter from http://www.ttweights.com/stcopmat.html
the matt is not cheap at around $300. US. - I never paid that kind of money since at one point they were selling slightly imperfect copper mats and the new copper mat was then way less expensive when the company started out.
The last one I just bought this June sold for $125. ; it had such a small defect I had to look for it... To get that deal, I simply wrote to them & asked if they had a less than perfect copper matt they would sell at a good price. (This is the fourth copper mat I got, since I will sell later my 3 motor 80 pound modified Oracle that also uses 2 copper mats & a 3 pound center weight.)

The small modification to the drive board to allow the New 12 pound platter to turn freely is not Mike’s fault ( as the platter was meant to readily install & play), as he is apparently using a different model. My turntable & power supply was bought in March 2010 from Kabusa http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/. That drive board has a high capacitor.
With the New heavy platter, the underside of the platter is rubbing against a 50 volt capacitor that his 16.3 mm above the motor board. Then the brake adjusting screw is 15 mm above the motor board, while the center round aluminum lip is 14 mm above the board. I had to fiddle a bit to find the offending part that rubbed against the underside of the New platter – so I used a felt marker to make a star under the platter & then turned the platter to see where the felt marking rubbed off…..and thus found the rubbing area…..

So I took out the 50V 480 mf on the motor drive board and replaced it with a 50V 680 mf capacitor connected out of the way & on its side making also longer leads. I also cut the top off the adjusting plastic screw but should have verified first if it cleared the platter by itself.

As for just testing the Mike New platter and bearing by itself with the standard TT – I am sure others will soon do this. But I would bet there is a 99.999 % (to infinity..) probability he/she will find similar improvements.

Citation16
13-06-2010, 14:38
The orrible concave platter is a clever idea from Oracle.

Originally, Oracle had a flat rubber platter and used a small middle high piece at he spindle, so that the screw down clamp would effectively make the record perimeter better touch the platter... This system somewhat worked but cracked many a record center hole in clamping down the record.

The slightly concave platter mat means that the record perimeter sits very well on the perimeter of the mat. The center of the mat is just a little lower, so that the record clamp can easily & better mate the record to the mat/platter. Also the mat is made of Delrin. Delrin is a very popular material used in turntables and is also used by Clearaudio.

The only other alternative to bond the record to the mat is a record ring sold by TT Weights and also VPI and others. I have a record ring and its sonic qualities are worderfull – but it’s just an extra procedure I seldom do.

Mind you, most platter mats are flat, and flat is far from ideal for the record to properly mate to the platter, unless we are mostly playing higher priced audiophile heavy records…

So a concave mat, while sounding orrible to some, may be worth consideration…

DSJR
13-06-2010, 14:46
" 'Orrible" was old school slang for "Oracle... ;)"

The original oracle bearing from a million years ago (well, 30 actually) had a "soft" ceramic pad which (deliberately) wore very quickly. I'm sure that was fixed a long time ago. Linn dealers back then very rarely looked at alternative decks and the Oracle changed distributership from Ab Sounds in the early eighties. the "Alexandria" turntable had more lengthy success in the UK IIRC. Anyway, the Gyrodeck took over much of the latent interest in this styling of turntable and was a good match to the SME V which came along a very few years later.

Citation16
13-06-2010, 15:10
Yes, a million years ago, the Oracle had some issues but was an interesting turntable with wich I made my first custom mass based turntable plinth & base, using Oracle platter, bearing & motor drive & the venerable SME V.

I would love to hear about interesting alternatives to the modded technics turntable, even using just one copper mat.

The cost of the SL1200 turntable + an outboard power supply + the Mike new bearing and platter + your favorite mat comes to about $2,200. US give or take...

Most turntable makers do not dare to have a strobe built in their turntables.

The strobe would show the TT cannot keep speed: due to stylus drag, belt wear, belt material, bearing, temperature change, humidity level, etc...

Even the Teres turntable, went to many pains to get the right speed. They had motor pods at some $1300. & used a battery for DC.
They are now selling a motor rim drive for almost $2,000. US and the speed is still not quite perfect. VPI has a similar rim drive unit ( not the turntable) also at a very high cost ..

So Teres is now selling a direct drive turntable – but their price is $10,000. for a basic unit ( without the tonearm) .

So even at $2,500 US a modded Technics seems to be a very serious contender. Later, a custom plinth will again change/level the playing field...

John
13-06-2010, 16:13
Yes, a million years ago, the Oracle had some issues but was an interesting turntable with wich I made my first custom mass based turntable plinth & base, using Oracle platter, bearing & motor drive & the venerable SME V.

I would love to hear about interesting alternatives to the modded technics turntable, even using just one copper mat.

The cost of the SL1200 turntable + an outboard power supply + the Mike new bearing and platter + your favorite mat comes to about $2,200. US give or take...

Most turntable makers do not dare to have a strobe built in their turntables.

The strobe would show the TT cannot keep speed: due to stylus drag, belt wear, belt material, bearing, temperature change, humidity level, etc...

Even the Teres turntable, went to many pains to get the right speed. They had motor pods at some $1300. & used a battery for DC.
They are now selling a motor rim drive for almost $2,000. US and the speed is still not quite perfect. VPI has a similar rim drive unit ( not the turntable) also at a very high cost ..

So Teres is now selling a direct drive turntable – but their price is $10,000. for a basic unit ( without the tonearm) .

So even at $2,500 US a modded Technics seems to be a very serious contender. Later, a custom plinth will again change/level the playing field...

The Verus drive (Teres) is a great addition to a TT but the VPI rim drive is not in the same league. For me the major issue is the reliabilty issues with the Verus drive There is another path but I leave that for another thread when I have the TT
But to sum it up DC rim drive works really well and need not be expensive like the Teres... sorry for hijacking the thread for a moment

Clive
13-06-2010, 18:48
The Verus drive (Teres) is a great addition to a TT but the VPI rim drive is not in the same league. For me the major issue is the reliabilty issues with the Verus drive There is another path but I leave that for another thread when I have the TT
But to sum it up DC rim drive works really well and need not be expensive like the Teres... sorry for hijacking the thread for a moment
I have a Verus here, it has some foibles, sounds torquey if you know what I mean, but it has some rumble issues due to the type of bearing the motor uses. Speed control is admirable but I'm not convinced the complexity involved is worth it though it does ensure the motor will work with a wide variety of decks.

DSJR
13-06-2010, 19:19
I'm still going to plug a Heavy'd AceSpace with Wave Mechanic supply. Full speed adjustment available, the graphite platter (in the heavy kit) doesn't need ANY copper mats as the vinyl is perfectly terminated and the bearing is very well conceived and made for long and utterly reliable life. The belt is a silicon-rubber composite which retains its "memory" almost indefinitely too and the inertia in the platter exhibits no flutter and wow is better than a Garrard and inaudible to me.

YNWaN
13-06-2010, 20:58
I'm not so sure about the graphite. As part of my deck development I had both graphite platters and graphite mats made. In the end I didn't like the effect of either.

pure sound
13-06-2010, 21:10
I'm still going to plug a Heavy'd AceSpace with Wave Mechanic supply.

...the inertia in the platter exhibits no flutter and wow is better than a Garrard and inaudible to me.

If the Wave Mechanic makes a difference, it does suggest to me that the inertia in the platter isn't actually ensuring no flutter.

Spectral Morn
13-06-2010, 22:02
The orrible concave platter is a clever idea from Oracle.

Originally, Oracle had a flat rubber platter and used a small middle high piece at he spindle, so that the screw down clamp would effectively make the record perimeter better touch the platter... This system somewhat worked but cracked many a record center hole in clamping down the record.

The slightly concave platter mat means that the record perimeter sits very well on the perimeter of the mat. The center of the mat is just a little lower, so that the record clamp can easily & better mate the record to the mat/platter. Also the mat is made of Delrin. Delrin is a very popular material used in turntables and is also used by Clearaudio.

The only other alternative to bond the record to the mat is a record ring sold by TT Weights and also VPI and others. I have a record ring and its sonic qualities are worderfull – but it’s just an extra procedure I seldom do.

Mind you, most platter mats are flat, and flat is far from ideal for the record to properly mate to the platter, unless we are mostly playing higher priced audiophile heavy records…

So a concave mat, while sounding orrible to some, may be worth consideration…


I use a little rubber O ring on my Oracle Delphi mk4, works a treat :) for the clamp to push the record label against.

Regards D S D L

Citation16
13-06-2010, 22:04
The Verus drive (Teres) is a great addition to a TT but the VPI rim drive is not in the same league. For me the major issue is the reliabilty issues with the Verus drive There is another path but I leave that for another thread when I have the TT
But to sum it up DC rim drive works really well and need not be expensive like the Teres... sorry for hijacking the thread for a moment

Possibly you refer to the new TT that Larry from TT Weights will put out (its a rim drive I beleive) at the $3,000. price range ??

In any case we are far from Mike's new platter discussion ; hope to read other people trying it...

As for extra copper mats on the Mike's new platter,

Consider the copper pieces as more weight to the platter,

The mat is something else to put on top...

Spectral Morn
13-06-2010, 22:04
" 'Orrible" was old school slang for "Oracle... ;)"

The original oracle bearing from a million years ago (well, 30 actually) had a "soft" ceramic pad which (deliberately) wore very quickly. I'm sure that was fixed a long time ago. Linn dealers back then very rarely looked at alternative decks and the Oracle changed distributership from Ab Sounds in the early eighties. the "Alexandria" turntable had more lengthy success in the UK IIRC. Anyway, the Gyrodeck took over much of the latent interest in this styling of turntable and was a good match to the SME V which came along a very few years later.


My Oracle Delphi mk4 got from Gamepath has never missed a beat. Keeps its set-up, works perfectly and sounds wonderful. Oh yes and spare parts are not a problem :)


Regards D S D L

Citation16
13-06-2010, 22:09
I use a little rubber O ring on my Oracle Delphi mk4, works a treat :) for the clamp to push the record label against.

Regards D S D L

That is a brilliant idea !

Try also adding a bit of removable silicone on the 3 extremities of the suspended chassi; changes everything you heard before...
Oracle now uses a similar idea with 3 vertical pieces dipped into silicone with their latest TT model.

Spectral Morn
13-06-2010, 22:31
That is a brilliant idea !

Try also adding a bit of removable silicone on the 3 extremities of the suspended chassi; changes everything you heard before...
Oracle now uses a similar idea with 3 vertical pieces dipped into silicone with their latest TT model.


The weird thing about this is that Oracle are now doing what Project did with their first turntable which was a copy of an Oracle Delphi but on the cheap, with no nice fit and finish or metal work. It had a little pot under it and adjustable paddle. Silicon sat in the pot.

Regards D S D L

pure sound
14-06-2010, 07:52
It will make a difference. It alters (reduces) the amount of isolation afforded by the suspension system. But it also reduces the amount that the motor is able to pull the suspended part around so that the platter's rotation actually follows the motor pulley's rotation more accurately.

YNWaN
14-06-2010, 09:53
If the Wave Mechanic makes a difference, it does suggest to me that the inertia in the platter isn't actually ensuring no flutter.

A fair point.

_____________________________________________


It will make a difference. It alters (reduces) the amount of isolation afforded by the suspension system. But it also reduces the amount that the motor is able to pull the suspended part around so that the platter's rotation actually follows the motor pulley's rotation more accurately.

Well, I've also experimented with this and I would say; yes you are right but only up to a point. In theory it does reduce isolation but this is very frequency dependent and, not surprisingly, partly depends on the specific implementation. I use a silicone damped suspension on my current deck and it has made it virtually immune to footfall whilst maintaining good rejection at higher frequencies. I'm still experimenting but, at present, I would say there are more pros than cons to such a design. Your second point regarding motor and platter stability I entirely agree with. The damping system I use has relatively low resistance in the vertical plane and increasingly greater resistance in the horizontal dependant on deflection.

pure sound
14-06-2010, 10:27
Keith Howard did an interesting piece on isolation/suspension systems a year or two back in HiFi News. While damping the resonance of a suspension did improve its behaviour in terms of the time taken to return to rest it did also compromise the attenuation afforded by the filter aswell. There's unfortunately no such thing as a free lunch. The effectiveness of filters is always frequency dependent.

I suppose the values you choose depend how much attenuation is enough at any particular frequency.

Max Townshend always posits an optimum Q but I can't recall the value he uses. For home use I'll tolerate a high Q suspension with a longer settling time for the better isolation it offers but it certainly wouldn't be very 'commercial' *

* NB. this only applies in turntables where the drive system doesn't have a significant role in the suspension system. A sloppy High Q suspension wouldn't be much use on an AR/Linn/Thorens type deck.

YNWaN
14-06-2010, 10:44
. There's unfortunately no such thing as a free lunch. The effectiveness of filters is always frequency dependent.

I suppose the values you choose depend how much attenuation is enough at any particular frequency.

True, true and true.

DSJR
14-06-2010, 18:59
If the Wave Mechanic makes a difference, it does suggest to me that the inertia in the platter isn't actually ensuring no flutter.

Tom took great pains to ensure that his designs ran close to true speed, BUT, the motors are still synchronous I believe, and isolating the mains frequency with a re-generated one which is variable if necessary, must be a good thing for these motors.

YNWaN
14-06-2010, 19:18
Does the Wave Mechanic regenerate the 50Hz cycle then?

DSJR
14-06-2010, 19:23
I quote-

NOTTINGHAM ANALOGUE STUDIO
128 CORDY LANE, UNDERWOOD, NOTTINGHAM NG16 5FD
Design and Manufacture of Quality Audio Equipment
Telephone: +(44) (0) 1773 762947
Fax: +(44) (0) 1773 533566
V.A.T. REGISTRATION NO. 667 3729 92

WAVE MECHANIC POWER SUPPLY

Why a power supply? But first, why an AC turntable motor? Nottingham Analogue turntables excel by virtue of their almost elemental simplicity, relying as they do on the fact that a rotating platter will continue to do so at absolutely constant speed unless acted upon by outside forces. By coupling this steadily rotating mass to an arm base that is stable around the axis of
rotation of the platter, the result is a truly integrated unit.

By giving the platter adequate moment of inertia, the effects of any variability in outside forces are minimized. However, the most important force, bearing friction, should if the bearing is correctly made and lubricated remain essentially constant; hence, all that is required is to supply a small amount of energy to the platter at a constant rate – just sufficient to counter the friction and maintain a steady speed.

DC motors and their highly developed control systems may rightly dominate the small motor market for “movement and placement” applications such as robotics, but are they what we need in order to maintain this steady state? For this purpose, an AC synchronous motor backed by the “mass” of the National Grid should be the answer. Unfortunately, although the laws of mechanics show no sign of changing, electricity supplies are – and apparently always for the worse. There are four main areas of concern.

1. Voltage variations

As a case in point, since “harmonizing” with the rest of the EC, the nominal UK domestic supply voltage has fallen from 240V to 230V, but the permissible range of voltage has increased vastly, now being from –6% (216.2V) to +10% (253V). This whole range will not be seen in any one locality, but wide variations do occur between different areas.

For an AC synchronous motor, such voltage variations will not affect its overall speed, but will affect its torque: not what we need for constant energy input (torque x speed = power). In addition, the absolute voltage level has a very distinct effect on the dynamics and detail of the music, with a clearly audible optimum voltage range. We need, then, to be able to optimize the motor supply voltage and to hold it stable.

2. Frequency variations

These, by definition, will directly affect the speed of a synchronous motor. Supply frequency variations are generally slow, but are easily demonstrated using an independent precision strobe illuminator such as the “Zapper”.

Permissible variation in the UK is +/- 1% (6% equates to a semitone). Over 24 hours the frequency must average exactly 50Hz to satisfy users of synchronous clocks, so that if the frequency is slow at one point in the 24 hours, it must be fast at some other point as night follows day (sometimes literally!). For a power supply, some slight adjustment of frequency is desirable for pitch purposes but once set, it must remain stable.

3. Supply waveform

This is an aspect that has been becoming universally and insidiously more of a problem over the years largely as a result of the “switched mode” power supplies that have generally supplanted transformers in much modern electronic equipment.
The supply waveform does not now have a clean sinusoidal shape, but shows drastically clipped peaks – the equivalent of adding numerous high order harmonics to the fundamental 50 or 60 Hz. These can be shown to exist at significant levels far up into the audio frequency range, and even if attenuated by damping in the drive belt will still feed through to the platter. We need to synthesize a new clean waveform; “filtering” is not an answer.

4. Voltage spikes, and other “hash”

These are another part of the fallout from the volume and complexity of modern consumer demands, and are sufficiently worrying to have provoked restrictive regulations on equipment manufacturers. Our AC motor supply needs to be free of all such intrusions.

THE WAVE MECHANIC

The “Wave Mechanic” power supply addresses all of these issues, and provides a clean waveform, stable in voltage and frequency even when run off voltages well below the permissible level. The output voltage is pre-set internally to be in the optimum range, and there is a single control on the front panel to allow minor adjustment of the frequency for pitch control. Other than for this purpose it will probably remain untouched.

Both 50Hz and 60Hz version are available configured to suit local frequency and voltage. For a Turntable speed reference to partner the “Wave Mechanic” power supply, the “Zapper” hand-held battery-operated strobe illuminator is ideal. This is available in 50Hz and 60Hz version, either with the power supply or separately for more general use.

The audible benefits of the power supply are very clear. Detail, dynamics and sound stage are all much improved, but perhaps the most evident feature is the way that the whole pace and rhythm of the music sound natural and true. Pitch stability is impeccable, giving complete confidence and much deeper involvement in the musical performance. The benefits should not be expected to replace those from upgrading the turntable, but rather to complement them. Al of the Nottingham Analogue turntables will benefit, whether your current one or your next upgraded one!

Specifications:
Supply voltage/frequency: Version for 230V/50Hz, 115V/60Hz, 100V/50Hz, 100V60Hz
Power consumption: 6.5W
Fuse: Ceramic HRC 5mm x 20mm T250mA (230V), T500mA (115V and 100V)
Output frequency: 50Hz or 60Hz (depending on model) with control in center position.
Case Dimensions: (H x W x D) 2.55” x 4.13” x 11.22”
Weight: (w/ packaging) 5.6 lbs.

pure sound
14-06-2010, 20:08
I've no doubt that with the wave mechanic the platter rotates very smoothly, but if it is needed then evidently the platter does respond to unevenness in the drive and the rotating mass by itself isn't enough to ensure smooth rotation.

pure sound
15-06-2010, 06:47
Does the Wave Mechanic regenerate the 50Hz cycle then?

It must do, but I suspect not from a crystal oscillator if it is adjustable.

DSJR
15-06-2010, 13:40
Guy, I believe it's more to do with frequency and voltage stability, rather than an external bodge to correct platter-drive problems.

I have seen the mains frequency vary widely here (using an external battery 300Hz strobe as a reference to the SL-150 and Dual 701 neon lit strobes). The argument regarding lower voltage affecting torque makes sense too, as the Linn Lingo (for instance) takes the voltage down from 110 to 70V or so once started and running). NAS make the point that over the UK, the mean voltage can change from area to area, so the Wave mechanic should help minimise these differences. Is it worth £528? I don't know, but it seems to have a lot more in it than the Techie supplies (two transformers at least) and it's sold to supportive dealers, who take their cut out of the selling price.

I'm not having a go, but the NAS decks are all but ignored on here in the great Direct-Drive revolution and the Wave Mechanic was designed to enhance the consistency of performance from area to area, rather than being an essential item to the decks' performance.

pure sound
15-06-2010, 16:05
I've no problem with the NAS decks, I've heard them giving very good results. They aren't quite my thing but I can understand why people like them. The point I was making was that a turntable motor is a transducer just like a speaker driver. It will try to follow & reproduce whatever you feed it. If you feed it a waveform containing hash it will try to 'play' that hash as well as rotating and to some degree a platter, regardless of how heavy, will also end up trying to follow that motor. Of course the belt compliance and the mass of the platter provides a kind of filter but it isn't perfect.

The point being that the mass of the platter alone is not enough to smooth out fluctuations in how the motor pulls it round. The wave mechanic is an integral part of the design as far as I can see.

DSJR
15-06-2010, 16:51
With respect Guy, I see it as a way of giving constant voltage and frequency to a motor susceptable to changes in these, rather than specifically improving the smoothness of rotation, which it may do (as the Naim Armageddon did/does over a Lingo).

Anyway, it's a moot point on this site as few posters here know, let alone use/have used, one of these fine turntables and we're way off topic..

YNWaN
15-06-2010, 17:01
It must do, but I suspect not from a crystal oscillator if it is adjustable.

The info that DSJR supplied seems to imply that it does (though I admit I thought it did not).

pure sound
15-06-2010, 17:02
I believe its difficult to do a precise variable frequency output from a fixed frequency oscillator. You normally need two different crystals to divide down from to give 33 & 45 never mind any other speeds. Unless its some new fangled & dastardly digital trickery.



DSJR. That's true. It's the new platter information vacuum that's causing it! Must resist...

Alex Nikitin
16-06-2010, 22:38
I believe its difficult to do a precise variable frequency output from a fixed frequency oscillator. You normally need two different crystals to divide down from to give 33 & 45 never mind any other speeds. Unless its some new fangled & dastardly digital trickery.

That bit is actually very easy. For example Technics SP-15 had a variable crystal locked speed. Today one can use a digital frequency synthesizer chip to do that, however there is an even simpler way - a standard CMOS logic IC "4059" (http://ics.nxp.com/products/counters/4059/~HEF4059B/).

Alex

DSJR
17-06-2010, 07:04
DSJR. That's true. It's the new platter information vacuum that's causing it! Must resist...

:lol:

MartinT
17-06-2010, 07:48
Sorry I've been absent for a while, I was travelling around northern France and Belgium in a Z3 visiting mostly WW2 sites but also took a diversion to Agincourt for some 14th century gratification.

Anyway, now that I've caught up with posts here I'm glad to see that at least one member has had a listen to the platter. Dave has told me that he won't support me running a bake-off so I'm only going to be able to buy a platter as a customer when funds permit. That isn't likely until the end of the year. At that point, I shall try to review it with as many options as possible, certainly with/without the Copper mat and with at least the Timestep HE and possibly another PSU.

Marco
17-06-2010, 08:13
Hi Martin,

Glad yer back, matey. Hope you had a nice time! :)


Dave has told me that he won't support me running a bake-off so I'm only going to be able to buy a platter as a customer when funds permit.


Now why doesn't that surprise me! :rolleyes: ;)

I can't believe that he's expecting people to buy a completely unknown quantity like this which costs a not inconsiderable £650 without listening to it first in their own system.......

Note to Mike New: why did you mention here that this was a possibility?


That isn't likely until the end of the year. At that point, I shall try to review it with as many options as possible, certainly with/without the Copper mat and with at least the Timestep HE and possibly another PSU.


Well I can supply the other PSU (probably two, actually), so when you buy the platter, we can have the bake-off then, dude, (if you're up for it) and it'll have bugger all to do with Dave.

No disrespect to your reviewing abilities, but I must hear the effect of the platter with my own ears and with my own T/T before I'd entertain buying one, and we can do that together and report our findings on the forum for the benefit of other potential customers - that's the fairest and most sensible way to do it. It'd be good to hook up again, too :cool:

Marco.

leo
17-06-2010, 08:39
I'd have thought it made sense to have say one to use as a sample to send around various folks to evaluate and post feedback :scratch: Even if it was just sent to customers he knew well it would be worth it imo, they can have the bake off etc , surely he'd trust it to get sent back .

Marco
17-06-2010, 08:46
Indeed, Leo, in normal circumstances, yes that makes perfect sense, but where Dave's concerned nothing is ever as simple or as straightforward as that due to his various agendas. He's hardly endearing himself to future customers with his defensive and unhelpful behaviour. It's bloody ridiculous :rolleyes:

I could say plenty here, but I'l refrain from losing the plot...!

Marco.

chris@panteg
17-06-2010, 12:03
Marco ' i think your being very unfair , i don't sense any hidden agenda's , just caution! its still very early days with this new platter.

Marco
17-06-2010, 12:22
I'm being unfair? Oh come off it, Chris, it's not me behaving utterly unreasonably. Even Leo thinks it's riduculous, and so do many other people I've spoken to about it but who won't comment here. The agenda is there for all to see if people take off the blinkers: he can't handle competition or constructive criticism! Those are not endearing traits, in my opinion.

Caution? Where's the harm in allowing a product, once you're finished and are happy with it, to be demonstrated to a small group of trusted potential buyers prior to purchase? That's quite a normal thing to do, no? If you're confident in the efficacy of your products, then exposing them to scrutiny in order to make a sale is part and parcel of being in business. At least in my world it is.

If Dave wants to behave like a petulant primadonna and shoot himself in the foot in the process, in terms of selling platters, then that's his prerogative, but I'll certainly not be holding back in my criticism of his decision, as I think it's entirely justified.

Anyway, I really don't think we need any more discussion on that side of the matter, as I can't see it turning into anything remotely constructive. I merely wanted to express my disdain at what he's told Martin, and now I've done that, I think we should leave it there and return to discussing specifics about the platter itself, so please, let's do that :)

AudiOH!
17-06-2010, 17:28
[QUOTE=Mike_New;129101]

I did get the new platter from Mike - after some small modifications to a high capacitor on the drive board, so that the platter turned freely, the platter was finally ready to play.

Yves

I believe Mike has modified the platter so that the Cap is no longer a problem on the Mk5 decks. Dave appears to have 10 platters on order.

Les

Mike_New
18-06-2010, 00:19
I can confirm that David has ordered ten platters from me last week. I understand that he has orders for five of them!! Plus I am shipping to the US and Canada.

I believe Marco you should carefully read the review of Yves and then form an opinion.

All this rather shrill talk and argument about motor dynamics is just that, its the listening experience that counts in the final yards. and I am no authority on sonics, rather a precision engineer.

If David does not want to loan any platters out for evaluation, then I guess I cannot do much about it. He does have the right to handle his sales territory the way he wants to. That does not mean I always agree with his approach.

The large capacitor that Yves mentioned, and that Marco seemed to think would negate anyone being able to fit the new platter themselves has been corrected. In fact this cap situation was highlighted by a helpful contributor to theses pages some months ago, who sent me an image and measurements of the latest PCB. In fact, in making some other design changes in an attemp to get the centre of gravity as low as possible, I miscalculated the distances. This has now been corrected.

Although as always when one is designing a product to piggyback an established design and production variations, there will always be the need for design reviews.

Marco
18-06-2010, 00:59
Hi Mike,


I can confirm that David has ordered ten platters from me last week. I understand that he has orders for five of them!! Plus I am shipping to the US and Canada.


Nice one - and may you sell plenty more, my friend! Everyone has different criteria before deciding to buy something, so good luck to those who've ordered platters. I hope for them that it proves to be an excellent upgrade :)


I believe Marco you should carefully read the review of Yves and then form an opinion.


I have done, and don't doubt that what Yves says is true, however, I cannot form a definitive opinion on something which I've not heard for myself, and/or where there is (so far) no measurement data with which to allay the concerns I have expressed for this modifcation.

I just like to be thorough, Mike, that's all!


All this rather shrill talk and argument about motor dynamics is just that, its the listening experience that counts in the final yards. and I am no authority on sonics, rather a precision engineer.


Fair enough, and I respect that, but I've already said that this is one modification of the SL-1200 I would not trust my ears solely to judge, and I will stick by that. If others don't wish to do this then that is their prerogative.


If David does not want to loan any platters out for evaluation, then I guess I cannot do much about it. He does have the right to handle his sales territory the way he wants to. That does not mean I always agree with his approach.


Indeed so, however reading between the lines of your last sentence, I'm glad that we share a degree of similar thinking in that respect ;)


The large capacitor that Yves mentioned, and that Marco seemed to think would negate anyone being able to fit the new platter themselves has been corrected. In fact this cap situation was highlighted by a helpful contributor to theses pages some months ago, who sent me an image and measurements of the latest PCB.


Don't worry, that was my fault. I didn't realise that Yves had a KAB PSU.


In fact, in making some other design changes in an attemp to get the centre of gravity as low as possible, I miscalculated the distances. This has now been corrected.

Although as always when one is designing a product to piggyback an established design and production variations, there will always be the need for design reviews.

I applaud your honesty, Mike, and your willingness to be so forthcoming about these things. If only some other people could take a leaf out of your book!

I very much agree with your last paragraph, which is why I would wait until all the 'teething troubles' have been ironed out before I'd consider taking the plunge with one of your platters.

We therefore await future developments with interest.

Mike, be under no illusions that my scrutinising things is done with the best of intentions, and if the sonic effect of the new platter is unquestionably as good as Yves says, AOS will promote its use to all SL-1200/1210 aficionados as a viable and effective upgrade, and in turn I'm sure you will have lots of success with it! Don't underestimate the influence AOS has in that respect ;)

The platter being an unquestionably successful and effective upgrade is what I would like to be the case, just the same as all the other Techie fans here would, too. It's just a pity that on this side of the pond one has to negotiate with such an awkward and intransigent character as Mr Cawley (judging by his behaviour here, not how he is in person).

However, onwards and upwards.... When you have any more interesting news, please be sure to share it with us! :cool:

Take care.

Marco.

Alex Nikitin
18-06-2010, 10:48
It's just a pity that on this side of the pond one has to negotiate with such an awkward and intransigent character as Mr Cawley (judging by his behaviour here, not how he is in person).

Marco, may I say that these words can be easily addressed to you on this matter. I am only an outside observer here, however I understand Dave's position very well and in this case I am rather on his side. What you're demanding on the measurements side is not sensible. To measure the platter influence on the performance or indeed changes in the dynamics is not a trivial task and involves a lot of work and specialized equipment. Moreover, the release of the information from this kind of measurements may be not in the interest of either Mike or Dave as it may give some ideas to potential competitors. I think it is up to Dave how he handles the measurements and the sales (as Mike said) and your behaviour on this matter does look childish and unreasonable to me as I am following this thread :( - sorry!

Alex

Marco
18-06-2010, 11:09
Hi Alex,

No problem. You're entitled to your opinion, but although I see where you're coming from, I happen to (mostly) disagree.


What you're demanding on the measurements side is not sensible. To measure the platter influence on the performance or indeed changes in the dynamics is not a trivial task and involves a lot of work and specialized equipment.


Fair enough, I don't doubt it, but I was under the impression that measurements were Dave's 'thing', and that he had plenty of the relevant apparatus (and the knowledge to use it) to supply at least a credible analysis of the effects outlined.


Moreover, the release of the information from this kind of measurements may be not in the interest of either Mike or Dave as it may give some ideas to potential competitors.


Fair point, however I still maintain that Dave could offer some kind of feedback as to what he's discovered when measuring the behaviour of the new platter and its effect on the drive system of the SL-1200; he doesn't have to go into such detail that any secrets are given away.

All I was looking for, Alex, from Dave was something along the lines of:

'Hi guys, I've been playing with the new platter today and have discovered X, Y, Z, which clearly shows to me that the new platter doesn't in any way negatively impact on the speed stabilty of the drive system, so worry not! Oh, and it sounds fantastic and makes a significant improvement to the performance of the SL-1200...'

Had he done something that, instead of creating a shroud of silence on the matter, I can assure you that we wouldn't be in this unfortunate position now!

All others and I would like is some form of reassurance of the concerns we've raised here. Instead we get indignant silence and a rather arrogant and dismissive air of 'I don't have to justify my products to anyone' from Dave, which I'm sorry, I find completely unacceptable. Look how helpful and forthcoming people like Stan Beresford and Paul Hynes are with enquires about their products. Why can't Dave be more like them?? It certainly wouldn't do him any harm!

I can also ASSURE you that his attitude in this matter is not reflecting well on him, despite him putting a favourable spin on it. I've had discussions in private with numerous people and they are all telling me that he's doing himself no favours whatsoever. However, if he wants to put his ego ahead of his best business interests, then of course that's entirely his decision!

I do however fully understand that things are still under development with the platter, so I'm not looking for definitive answers at this stage; merely some basic feedback as to what he has learned so far. Surely to God that's not too much to ask???


I think it is up to Dave how he handles the measurements and the sales (as Mike said) and your behaviour on this matter does look childish and unreasonable to me as I am following this thread - sorry!


No need to apologise. Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion. However, for "childish and unreasonable" see Dave's refusal to loan a test platter to Martin for serious potential buyers to evaluate prior to possible purchase :rolleyes: - even when, quite clearly, Mike himself and eveyone else thinks this is a sensible idea!!

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Alex. Let's not forget too that you're a personal friend and business partner of Dave's, so I wouldn't expect you to take any other stance on this matter than what you're currently doing, which is fine by me and entirely understandable :)

Marco.