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Opti-cal
24-05-2019, 12:39
Afternoon guys,

just wondering if anyone can give me some tips on the following.

I've upgraded my Linn LP12 with a Mose power supply and Mober bearing. I'm using a pre-cirkus spindle/subplatter (which I was told is fine).

Installation was really easy, much easier than I expected and is testament to the designer/supplier (Edmund Chan).

Anyway, after installation I can hear a small amount of grinding from the spindle in the new bearing if I put my ear a couple of inches away from it. I've used the correct amount of oil and it seems to be spinning freely enough, its just the sound wasn't there before with the old bearing in place.

Once the platter is on with the slip mat and its rotating the sound is certainly less audible but if you listen for it is still there.

I have only "loosely" set up the turntable regarding springs but I know its not far off and I don't think it would have any effect on this issue.

I've spoken to Bigbird (Karl) of this parish who has been super helpful in general to me but I just wondered if anyone has any tips/suggestions?

I can see you can secure the bearing in slightly different positions depending on where you secure the 3 retaining screws and I'm wondering if this would effect it?

Maybe due to the ball race design of the bearing there is a small amount of friction present as the bearing does hold the spindle slightly tighter than the old bearing.

I'm also wondering if a Cirkus or SSP12 platter upgrade would help.

All suggestions welcome!

Cheers,

Chris

Cyrus
24-05-2019, 12:54
Are you sure it's not the belt moving up to its optimum position? Have a look with the platter on upside down.

Light Dependant Resistor
24-05-2019, 12:59
Hi Chris
If you remove the outer platter, the inner platter despite raising up a bit can be examined for any point that is touching
It suggests the motor area, I seem to recall two screws that get close to moving parts near the motor. It should show up
where it is just touching, if you rotate the inner platter. Hope that helps.

Opti-cal
24-05-2019, 13:01
Are you sure it's not the belt moving up to its optimum position? Have a look with the platter on upside down.

Hi Joe, it makes the noise without belt attached - I wish it was as simple as that!

Thanks

Opti-cal
24-05-2019, 13:03
Hi Chris
If you remove the outer platter, the inner platter despite raising up a bit can be examined for any point that is touching
It suggests the motor area, I seem to recall two screws that get close to moving parts near the motor. It should show up
where it is just touching, if you rotate the inner platter. Hope that helps.

Hi Chris, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately?) it is not in contact with any part of the motor or the screws. (I'd imagine this would be caused by a lack of upward force from the springs?).

Again - wish it was a quick fix like this!!

Cheers anyway

Beobloke
24-05-2019, 13:45
A turntable bearing should not make any audible noise.

I’d put the original one back in if I were you.

Opti-cal
24-05-2019, 14:01
A turntable bearing should not make any audible noise.

I’d put the original one back in if I were you.

That's what I thought. I'm going to take it off, re-oil it and try it one more time.

Then I think the old one will be going back in. :thumbsup:

karma67
24-05-2019, 14:12
i may be wrong but shoudn't the spindle be replaced when changing the bearing,they are a mated pair are they not?

Opti-cal
24-05-2019, 14:24
i may be wrong but shoudn't the spindle be replaced when changing the bearing,they are a mated pair are they not?

I did pose the question to the designer, who said it was fine (backed up by a few happy users). . . .

You can buy all sorts of spindles/platters and bearings individually so not necessary a must, but probably good to do so if you can (afford it).

YNWaN
24-05-2019, 16:01
It’s a bit of a Linn myth that the two parts of the Linn bearing are a matched pair - I guarantee they are not. Also, the Cirkus inner platter is identical to the pre-Cirkus one, only the part of the bearing that fits to the chassis is different. However, the Mober bearing is a very odd design in that it has chosen to use twin ball races - frankly, this is entirely the wrong choice in a turntable bearing and will be very much noisier than the shaft and journal type Linn use (also the majority of all turntable manufacturers use a variant on this type of bearing). If you can hear a grinding with your ear then the actual noise being generated must be huge relative to the noise of the standard bearing.

scotty38
24-05-2019, 17:45
Isn't the point of changing them together not that they are initially matched but they have "worn" together? I'm not suggesting there's any real mileage in it just that was my understanding of the reasoning.

Bigbird
24-05-2019, 23:39
Just had another thought which i have come across before. Sometimes the belt rides up and touches the belt guide which causes that light whirring nose so i had to adjust the motor tilt to make sure that the belt didnt ride too high and rub against the guide and speed stayed accurate. Try that mate

Bigbird
25-05-2019, 06:38
Forget that ive just read through all of the comments[emoji23]
If you cant find a solution then get a refund mate, or take it off the price of an SSP12 sub (which is better than the linn one by a cats knacker, and a lot cheaper) and save for a cirkus . Cant be having noise from the bearing. If its audible to your ears then the cartridge will have a field day when it makes its way through the platter


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phonomac
25-05-2019, 07:13
... the Mober bearing is a very odd design in that it has chosen to use twin ball races - frankly, this is entirely the wrong choice in a turntable bearing and will be very much noisier than the shaft and journal type Linn use (also the majority of all turntable manufacturers use a variant on this type of bearing). If you can hear a grinding with your ear then the actual noise being generated must be huge relative to the noise of the standard bearing.

Agree 100% with this. The only place that this design of platter bearing is fit for is on a record-changer, where you need to have the mechanism operate through the centre of the bearing. I assume that nobody is trying to convert an LP12 to a record-changer.

walpurgis
25-05-2019, 08:16
Agree 100% with this. The only place that this design of platter bearing is fit for is on a record-changer, where you need to have the mechanism operate through the centre of the bearing. I assume that nobody is trying to convert an LP12 to a record-changer.

I also agree. It's just being different for the sake of difference. Ball races can be excellent, but this application is not the place for them.

DSJR
25-05-2019, 08:46
FFS fellas - the whole point of the LP12 design WAS the single point bearing in an oil-bath design, the rest 'borrowed' a lot from the TD150 ime.

The two platters weren't ever matched pairs I agree, BUT, any bell modes were all but removed using a two-part platter. The fact they are all but the same size as the donor TD150 design is irrelevant here ;) - they had drifted slightly apart in dimensions so the Thorens originals don't quite interchange with Linn ones, but you can see the broad dimensional similarity side by side ;)

Linn had good long lasting bearings BUT ALSO others from the mid 80's sadly which are highly suspect today in terms of wear and were borderline when new, being 'saved' by the black oil Linn introduced (there was a bad batch in '85 or so and the worst ones failed in half an hour of use I remember, the spindle tip having a burn mark at the bottom rather than a polished 'running mark' on the very tip). One deck I set up recently from the early 80's (from memory, dark bearing sleeves) was absolutely perfect, with not even a running mark on the spindle tip. Other white sleeved pre-Cirkus bearings (and sadly, apparently one or two Cirkus ones as well!) can show pronounced wear after thirty odd years, the polished 'flat' on the spindle tip becoming 'dirty' looking despite the effectiveness of Linn's 'black' oil in bringing wear in borderline-hardened thrust plates down. This does seem to have an audible effect on a good system.

For the stock Linn bearing in good order, Tiger Paw do a magnetic arrangement which involves two opposing magnet 'rings,' one which fits around the bearing well on the sub-chassis (it seems to fit without stripping anything down) and the other a ceramic? ring attached to the underside of the sub-chassis. It works superbly to reduce loading on the spindle and bearing thrust plate (I was told by around 75% but can't be sure), is easily removed if necessary and I was told by 'ears' I trust it has definite sonic benefits too... I can't find it, but if you contact them, they can help and Roger knows how to set the deck up in stock form too so can advise if you find some Linn dealers a bit much ;)

Parting shot - old geriatric LP12 wrecks have MANY potential issues structurally and sonically, believe me, the current offering in a different sonic world to early 80's models fitted with Ittoks and similar (I've done the comparisons and have huge regard for the current issue LP12, if not the stupidly ott prices Linn want now for a 'blue printed' TD150). The main bearing in good order is one of the quietest out there and with good tolerances in the sleeving supporting all that mass and any noises in the deck at all are usually motor or old belt related (fifty quid for a belt is an absolute joke methinks). Go back to the stock bearing unless it's knackered and get the sodding thing properly set up. they don't drift so much these days and if the deck is years old as many are now, the wooden parts should have compressed in nicely, not needing such regular attention.

Sadly, Derek Jenkins is no longer with us, but he was an LP12 expert in southern England and worked around one or two London dealers (KJ and Infidelity at least). Surely he had trained acolytes to take over from him now he's sadly passed away.

I dunno, just chuck the bloody thing out and replace with a Spacedeck, Rega 8 or Technics or summat - :D They'd save many headaches and may well sound tons better too....:lol:

Bigbird
25-05-2019, 08:58
+1 for the tiger paw tranquility, it works an absolute treat. My platter/cirkus bearing spins freely and silently for around 4 minutes or so when given a good spin , i heard it takes up to 90% of the load off the bearing thrust plate . There was a couple on ebay recently. Not sure if theyre still there.


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YNWaN
25-05-2019, 08:58
Peter Swain of Cymbiosis does a very good LP12 set up.

There’s no ceramic in the TP Tranquility (I should know ;)), but it can indeed be fitted and removed without stripping the deck down - all you need to do is remove the inner platter.

Opti-cal
25-05-2019, 09:44
Hi guys, thanks for all the measured responses.

Truly appreciated. A serious amount of dedicated knowledgeable people which really come to the rescue at times like this.

I stuck the old bearing in there last night, back to silence and the deck sounds as good as it ever did. (Better with the Mose power supply and board of course).

I certainly will be sending it back for a refund and probably looking at the SSLP12 upgrade as well as the Tranquility upgrade.

Or if a Cirkus can be had for "reasonable" (not Linn reasonable) money I might plumb for that.

Also fully intend to get it setup professionally once and for all (okay a few years) but at least then I will know it is performing at its best.

Awesome info for the novice like me there David.

Peter Swain of Cymbiosis has come up on my radar before and seems like a great way to go now - cheers Mark.

As for trading it in and getting something less high maintenance, ship has slightly sailed there plus the old man would write me out of his will (assuming I'm in there anyway) as he donated it to me and also raised his eyebrows when I told him I might "freshen it up a bit" . . .

Like I say I'm really humbled by the informative and helpful responses, that's what this place is all about :youtheman:

Big thanks to all of you.

Cheers,

Chris

Bigbird
25-05-2019, 09:52
The cirkus is the cheaper part , its only 125 quid if I remember correctly??? Maybe youll get one in the classifieds a bit cheaper than that or ebay? Im sure somebody has one knocking around in a drawer somewhere. Its the subplatter thats the expensive bit, but the ssp12 is pretty affordable in comparison.

Glad youve narrowed down the issue to the bearing and can now get on to edmund about a refund to use elsewhere


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YNWaN
25-05-2019, 10:13
I’m afraid the Cirkus is nothing like £125 - more like £490

https://www.cymbiosis.com/product/linn-lp12-cirkus-kit/

Apologies, the outer bearing on its own is indeed £125

https://www.cymbiosis.com/product/linn-lp12-cirkus-bearing-housing/

ReggieB
25-05-2019, 10:33
plus the old man would write me out of his will (assuming I'm in there anyway) as he donated it to me

Ah! So I'm not the only one who has an LP12 passed down from their father. I'm sure I'd not have gone down the LP12 route if I wasn't given the deck by my dad. However, I've grown very fond of the bugger now (deck that it is - I've always adored the other cantankerous old bugger)

Pharos
25-05-2019, 12:23
I think it is utterly daft to use ball races for the main turntable support bearing. Inevitably there will be unevenesses in the surfaces on which the balls support the weight of the platter, and these may get worse with wear through adhesive and abrasive friction.

Many years ago, with a Garrard 0-100 which used a ball race running on washers as a support plate, the balls ground a messy groove in the plate, and Garrard sent me a replacement washer plate.

Later they introduced the 0-100 SB, using a spindle with a ball at the bottom, and much better.

Bigbird
25-05-2019, 12:28
I’m afraid the Cirkus is nothing like £125 - more like £490

https://www.cymbiosis.com/product/linn-lp12-cirkus-kit/

Apologies, the outer bearing on its own is indeed £125

https://www.cymbiosis.com/product/linn-lp12-cirkus-bearing-housing/

Yes and the inner platter around 400 on its own.. crazy money for what it is.


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walpurgis
25-05-2019, 12:37
Yes and the inner platter around 400 on its own.. crazy money for what it is.

Yes, there's probably as much engineering and materials in a £25 car water pump.

Bigbird
25-05-2019, 20:26
Yes, there's probably as much engineering and materials in a £25 car water pump.

I agree mate, and this is why people have become disillusioned with linn . The products are decent quality but the retail prices are a bit ‘out there’ shall we say, which is why i built mine myself from parts and saved myself a couple of grand on what the shop wanted for the same spec . Prices aside , i still dont know why so many knock the LP12, the modern spec versions are superb performers ,nothing like the old ones, and im yet to hear a TT that comes close for the couple of grand ive got in mine.


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chris@panteg
26-05-2019, 05:16
I agree mate, and this is why people have become disillusioned with linn . The products are decent quality but the retail prices are a bit ‘out there’ shall we say, which is why i built mine myself from parts and saved myself a couple of grand on what the shop wanted for the same spec . Prices aside , i still dont know why so many knock the LP12, the modern spec versions are superb performers ,nothing like the old ones, and im yet to hear a TT that comes close for the couple of grand ive got in mine.


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Your Linn is not standard though, and I have heard a version of your LP12 vs a standard LP12 and I was impressed, much more focused and dare I say it vivid, I think Linn frown on some of these aftermarket mods but to me it's great for the consumer to have so many options.

I much prefer the Voyd but that's my taste and opinion.