How much vinyl is too much vinyl for an upstairs room?

[nickbaba]

It's not a riddle, it's a genuine question lol

Recently recovered a whole load of my old vinyl from a storage unit where it had languished for several years while we looked for a bigger house with room for it! :eyebrows: (that's not to say I went without vinyl during that time, but WAF would only stretch to the essential 1000 or so LPs I couldn't be parted from)

Having finally found a house and moved earlier in the year, I now have a 2nd floor 'man-cave' where all the precious vinyl treasures can rest with no negative WAF. I'd like to install some floor-standing plywood vinyl storage boxes along one wall. Probably 3 rows of 4 boxes, with approx 100-150 LPs in each. Then I started to worry about the weight of all that vinyl bearing down on the floor and the ceiling below? At a rough estimate of 1500 LPs, av weight 150gm, that's approx a quarter ton of plastic all in one spot, plus storage boxes.

Now, the house is old (Edwardian) and very solidly built indeed. The floors have pine boards of 20 or 25mm thickness, and there's a void beneath them with solid joists running between the floor and the ceiling of the rooms below. The shelves will run alongside a load-bearing wall which is supporting 2 huge watertanks in the loft that must weigh in at a couple of tons when full of water. I would imagine that the joists are connected to that solid wall under the floorboards so I feel slightly more confident putting the shelves there than say in the middle of a room, not that I would do that anyway, but you see my point.

At the moment the boxes are spread out to spread the weight. Can any structural engineers out there tell me, do I need to worry about that kind of weight? I mean, in the 2nd floor room next door I have a huge old wooden desk loaded with stuff that must weigh more than 150kg and I don't see any bending or flex in the floorboards there.

Do I need to worry about reinforcing the floor first?

[Barry]

I wouldn't expect you to experience any problems if you have the record cases laying alongside the load-baring wall. 225Kg may seem a lot, but your two water tanks, if they have a capacity of 1 cu metre, will when full, present a load of 1,000Kg each

[AJSki2fly]

Hello, I’m not an engineer but my Dad was structural and civil, and always said don’t guess, work it out. You need to know the depth and width of the floor joists and the type of wood, you can then look up the breaking strain value. You need to know how far apart the centres are, and similarly the plank thickness. The load bearing wall thickness and what it’s made from (brick). You then need to put these figures into some applied maths calculations, with the distance along and out from the wall the records will be. This will tell you the max value you can have before it falls down, usually you keep at least 20% below that.

Try this https://www.hunker.com/12484662/how-to-calculate-load-bearing-beams

[Andy831]

Domestic properties are designed for 1.5kN/m2 which works out to be 153kg/m2.

So work out the total weight of your lps and divide that number by the area the boxes occupy as a footprint plan on the floor and provided it does not exceed 153 then you need not worry.

I am a SE.

[Macca]

Domestic properties are designed for 1.5kN/m2 which works out to be 153kg/m2.
.

Was that also true in the Edwardian era or is that the modern spec?

[p147]

My experience of Edwardian properties are that they are very well built, my only query would be (and this would apply to all properties), Have the floorboards been taken up and relaid correctly? as they often are taken up to rewire, re-plumb or for timber treatment. Have the floorboards been cut on the joist or to the side of the joists? in which case often than not poorly fitted battens are screwed to the side of the joist and board placed back on it instead of directly centred onto the joist could have a major effect on the integrity of the floor, Also if a number of boards have been cut and taken up on one joist in a line as opposed to staggering the floorboards on different joists could also have an effect on the integrity of the floor. Has it been checked for woodworm/Beetle ? and finally depending on which way the joists run try and place the storage centrally over the joists to take the weight and not between the joists.

[nickbaba]

I don't know about Edwardian breaking strain specs but this house is very solidly built indeed, much more so than more modern places I've lived in - not a piece of plasterboard in sight, the whole thing is built of brick and solid timber.

Andy: I'm pretty hopeless at maths but the dimensions of the record storage unit are 48cm x 33cm and the footprint will be 4 of them in a row. Total weight estimated 225kg.

I calculate the footprint to be 0.63m2. 225 divided by 0.63 gives a result of 357.1kg/m2 or more than double the modern spec! :( Or have I made an error in my maths? (quite possible)

[Macca]

I calculate each storage box occupies 1/3rd of a square metre. so 3 boxes per square metre at a weight of approx 55 kilos each is 175 kilos per square metre. So over spec. Is each box really 55 kilos? Seems like a lot.

[Macca]

Reminds me of when I used to work at Gateway. There was an upstairs warehouse and a big sign across one of the beams said 'Caution: Maximum Load On This Floor Not To Exceed 250 Tonnes.'

Underneath it written in marker pen was 'Good luck!'

[struth]

don't see any issue. if it cant take 250kg it should be knocked down. hell thats just a little over 2 of me. so if 2 biggish folk stood upstairs, will the floor give way? i doubt it.

[nickbaba]

haha good point Grant - when you put it that way... it's also not more than something like an upright piano which I wouldn't worry about putting in there, I suppose.

[nickbaba]

Macca I calc the weight per box as more like 15-22kg. 100 LPs at 150gm each... 100x150= 15,000gms or 15kgs.
150 LPs per box would be approx 22kgs.

[Macca]

Macca I calc the weight per box as more like 15-22kg. 100 LPs at 150gm each... 100x150= 15,000gms or 15kgs.
150 LPs per box would be approx 22kgs.

22 Kgs full i.e weight of box and LPs? Then your fine as 3 of them in a square metre is only 66 kilo. If my maths was right.

Grant has a point as in two big blokes stood in the same square metre could easily collapse the floor if it could only take 150KG.


With the WW2 Tiger Tank the way to determine if the ground ahead could take it was for one crewman to get on the back of another and then he had to stand on one leg. If he didn't sink in then the ground was firm enough to take the vehicle. I don't think they compensated the crews for any resulting spinal injuries but then they had better things to worry about I suppose.

[AJSki2fly]

I don't know about Edwardian breaking strain specs but this house is very solidly built indeed, much more so than more modern places I've lived in - not a piece of plasterboard in sight, the whole thing is built of brick and solid timber.

Andy: I'm pretty hopeless at maths but the dimensions of the record storage unit are 48cm x 33cm and the footprint will be 4 of them in a row. Total weight estimated 225kg.

I calculate the footprint to be 0.63m2. 225 divided by 0.63 gives a result of 357.1kg/m2 or more than double the modern spec! :( Or have I made an error in my maths? (quite possible)

Based on Andy's data "Domestic properties are designed for 1.5kN/m2 which works out to be 153kg/m2.

So work out the total weight of your lps and divide that number by the area the boxes occupy as a footprint plan on the floor and provided it does not exceed 153 then you need not worry."

A box 48cm by 33cm should hold about 100 records each record will weigh about 200gm (vinyl & sleeve) so 5 records will be 1kg, therefore 100 records on one of your boxes will be 20kg.

The floor area that each box takes up is 0.48m *0.33m which is 0.1584m2. So 6.31313131 boxes fit in a 1.0m2 of floor space, so the weight on the records occupying 1.0m2 will be around 6.313131 * 20kg = 126.262626kg. You need to add on the weight of 6 boxes.

So if my calculations are correct and your joists/floor meet Andy's specifications you have around 25kg spare (some will be used up by the storage box weight), bear in mind some records may be 180gm vinyl, if you have lots of old 78's then they will be heavier.

I think I have this correct, if not shout someone.

[struth]

fatties better not kiss in the upstairs of house or the earth will move ;) only other thing to watch is that the floor wasnt originally a loft as joists are often not as thick. but they should have been replaced or strengthened if it had been

[Macca]

fatties better not kiss in the upstairs of house or the earth will move ;) only other thing to watch is that the floor wasnt originally a loft as joists are often not as thick. but they should have been replaced or strengthened if it had been

Loft joists are like matchsticks in my (1901) house. I daren't put anything up there.

[nickbaba]

eek don't scare me, I didn't think of that... will have to check if 2nd floor was converted from loft space

[AJSki2fly]

eek don't scare me, I didn't think of that... will have to check if 2nd floor was converted from loft space

You might find this helpful https://www.ehow.co.uk/how_7485788_calculate-floor-load-capacity.html or get and engineer to work it out>. If the joists are less than 8 by 2 timbers then you definitely need to get it worked out to be safe, IMO.

[nickbaba]

OK well I had a loose floorboard up to take a look underneath - the joists look pretty solid to me, they are 3x9 inches more or less I would say, and heavy timber. They run across the room at right angles to the proposed shelves, which would therefore be supported over several joists.

26067

[nickbaba]

They look exactly the same as the joists in the 1st floor bedroom floors, so not loft joists I would think.

[AJSki2fly]

OK well I had a loose floorboard up to take a look underneath - the joists look pretty solid to me, they are 3x9 inches more or less I would say, and heavy timber. They run across the room at right angles to the proposed shelves, which would therefore be supported over several joists.

26067

The look pretty substantial. Most modern houses have 2 by 8 joists.

[Barry]

I don't understand the concern. Let's take Grant's example of a typical adult man, weighing 12 stone (that is 76Kg), and assume his 'footprint' is 0.02m2, then his load on the floor will be about 3,800 Kg/m2.

If the floor cannot support two such men having a conversation, then you have something to worry about; and had better cancel any proposed parties until you get the situation remedied! ;)



In my own house I have about 400 LPs stored in two reasonably substantial record storage cases, stacked one on top of the other in an upstairs room. Assuming each case weighs 10Kg and has footprint of 0.24m2, then the total weight of 100Kg (40 Kg for the records + 20 Kg for the cases) represents a load on the floor of 416Kg/m2. The cases are up against a load-bearing wall, in a house built in the 1960's, to a standard where "cost was very much an object"; that is built to the minimum standard!

[nickbaba]

Yes that all makes sense Barry - the original question came more from a feeling of 'should I be concerned about this?' - then I got worried by Andy's calculation of 153kg/m2 being some sort of breaking point, and Macca'a matchstick loft joists lol

but yes, looked at with common-sense it looks like I shouldn't need to worry.

[nickbaba]

but I still totally do not grasp the maths of this - I just don't see how a 76kg man can exert a load of 3,800kg/m2... that's nearly 4 tons, isn't it?

how can a 76kg object exert more than a maximum 76kg load on a surface?

[Audio Al]

Can't you bolt some shelvs onto the wall ? 50 / 50 split

[struth]

but I still totally do not grasp the maths of this - I just don't see how a 76kg man can exert a load of 3,800kg/m2... that's nearly 4 tons, isn't it?

how can a 76kg object exert more than a maximum 76kg load on a surface?

coz he is not standing on 1m sq. his feet are much smaller.

[Barry]

but I still totally do not grasp the maths of this - I just don't see how a 76kg man can exert a load of 3,800kg/m2... that's nearly 4 tons, isn't it?

how can a 76kg object exert more than a maximum 76kg load on a surface?

Someone quoted a 'load' of 153Kg/m2. By that I assume they meant 153Kg distributed evenly over a square metre. However the units are that of pressure, so no, a 76Kg man cannot exert a load of more than 76Kg, but the pressure on the floor will be 76Kg divided by the area of the footprint (that is his two feet, which I have taken to be 30.5cm x 22cm = 0.067m2 divided by 3, since the weight is supported by the front of the sole and the heel, not the entire foot, that is 0.022m2), hence 76Kg/0.022m2 = 3398Kg/m2. So yes, the equivalent of nearly 4 tons distributed evenly over 1 square metre.

To provide an appropriate record-playing analogy: a typical playing weight might be 2 gram, so the load on the record will be 2 gram. But since the area of contact with the walls of the record groove is very, very small, the pressure on the vinyl will be enormous (at least 30 tons per square inch).


It's a bit like a woman wearing two different types of shoes on a polished wooden floor. When wearing flat soled shoes no damage will occur, but if she wears 'stiletto' high heels, because these have a smaller area of contact with the floor (especially the heel, which will take the main thrust of her weight), the pressure is enormous and will damage the floor.

[Macca]

No normal wooden floor would support 3800 kilos even spread across a metre square so there's something not quite right there.

[bonus]

I think you should sell half your collection, you will save on wood and your house will still be standing. Take a holiday with the money you make :D

After all, based on 4 albums a week and allowing for holidays and repeat playing of your favourites you will take at least 10 years to play them.

[bonus]

Now, I am not an engineer but this thread has been fun to read and its got me thinking...

Surely, it does not matter what floor you are on if your joists are the same then they will have the same constraints on the first floor as well as the ground and second?

I am sure you would not have given any further thought to this if they were on the ground floor and if the joist are the same then it will be fine. Just don't sleep in the room below :)

i am sure n engineer will come along and put me right :)

[walpurgis]

Of course nobody has taken unseen dry rot or woodworm into account. It does happen and any calculations go out of the window then.

Just hoping to cover all bases here (and put the fear of God up you :eek:) :).

[Barry]

No normal wooden floor would support 3800 kilos even spread across a metre square so there's something not quite right there.

The operative word here is 'equivalent'.

I may have underestimated the size of a footprint: but if we assume a full square foot (0.093m2, and clearly an overestimate), the equivalent pressure is 817Kg/m2.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really know what the quoted figure of 153Kg/m2 means. But in terms of the 225Kg of record storage, being an excessive structural load or not, since this is equal to the weight of three human adults - if these adults can congregate in the room and not feel the floor flexing, then all will be well.

[MaccaAu]

i keep my vinyl some vintage cedar cabinet thingy, not sure what you call it:scratch:

here's a look at it
https://ibb.co/BPjkjR6

[legb4rsk]

Don't forget to take into account how many Heavy Metal albums you have.

[Barry]

Don't forget to take into account how many Heavy Metal albums you have.

:lol:

[Jazid]

As was mentioned before why not buy some brackets and rawlbolt them to the wall? Cost less than an engineer and no doubts about collapse.

Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

[willbewill]

As was mentioned before why not buy some brackets and rawlbolt them to the wall? Cost less than an engineer and no doubts about collapse.

Sent from my BLA-L09 using TapatalkJust take care that, given the age of the property, that the mortar between the bricks could be lime/ash which doesn't give good fixings and the bricks could loosen.

[Jazid]

Ok, use chemical bolts. Still cheaper than a structural engineer [emoji16]

Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

[alphaGT]

I’ve got about 200 records on a 3/4 inch shelving board about a meter long, and it doesn’t sag. I’m sure you’ve got nothing to worry about.

Russell

[Andy831]

Crickey you turn away for 5 minutes and the thread goes wild LOL

Ok to try and answer some of the questions raised

When designing the British Standard for domestic loading is 1.5kN/m2 superimposed load (does not include self weight) Remember this is 153kg on each and every m2 of the subject room. Chances are the actual load will be a lot less than this Locally higher loads are then shared by the construction ie boards span between joists spreading the load over several joists. So two two big fat blokes having a conversation may locally exceed 153kg/m2 but that load will spread across several joists and will likely be a fairly temporary load. No one ever mentioned overload causing collapse. The British Standard loading will include a factor of safety on those loads too.

So you treat the blanket imposed load as a guide to know whether you need to check the floor any further.

In my instance a quick check based on the blanket load shows that under my record storage 5 high Ikea units with say 60 albums per module so 300 albums (Albums generally weight about 2.8kg per 10 albums) over an area of 0.415m x 0.39m shows an imposed load of about 5kN/m2 which is 3.3 times more than the blanket allowance. However you then have to consider the actual stress in each floor joist under that loading condition which is a function of the joist size, its spacing and its span. In my case even under 5kN/m2 loading my floor joists are adequate.

So in essence use the 153kg/m2 allowance as a guide but if it is exceeded then it may need a bit of further checking.

Hope that explains it a little better

[mike1210]

Was looking at this myself recently as I was getting worried about my vinyl collection. For me 100 records was about 22KG. These were dance records mainly singles. I was placing a shelf worth (100) on scales and averaging them out.

My bedroom has about 2000 records on shelves 5 high. Joists are 2x8 on 16" spacing. Length of joist 12ft. Records are across a load bearing wall. They spread across 7 joists roughly. House was built in 1970.

I don't think you need to worry but I think your records may weigh a bit more than what you estimate. I recon 300-350Kg

I am currently selling some of mine I don't listen to, to lighten the load so to speak