View Full Version : Caiman+ vs other DAC's
I've seen a lot of positive opinions regarding Caiman, and have then looked at the new Caiman+ (don't need USB), but how does it perform against DAC's like Cambridge Dacmagic and Music Hall DAC 25.2? After burn-in of course...
dave2010
19-05-2010, 19:56
I've seen a lot of positive opinions regarding Caiman, and have then looked at the new Caiman+ (don't need USB), but how does it perform against DAC's like Cambridge Dacmagic and Music Hall DAC 25.2? After burn-in of course...
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DavidI think I'd recommend the USB anyway. I didn't expect to need it, and now use it quite a lot. There are two electrical coax inputs, and one optical, but it's easy to feed multiple optical feeds in using cheaply available optical switches. OK - if you're sure you don't need it ....
There was a thread which dealt with DACs here - http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257579&page=2.
I'd say the performance of the Caiman is as good or significantly better than the DACMagic - when burnt in, though I didn't have a DACMagic long enough to burn it in. It has the merits of having a decent headphone output as well.
The DACMagic is quite neat if you want to get better sound out of your computer kit, and don't want to pay the extra for the Caiman. Otherwise it may not sound much different from other inputs, such as moderately decent CD players. I think Stan's DAC does better than that.
If you want a cheapie, then I've heard that the new Musical Fidelity V-DAC is quite good, but I've not heard it. It's only got three inputs though.
Can't comment on the MH DAC 25.2, but isn't that a more expensive beast with valves? There may well be other DACs which sound different or better than the Caiman, but hardly any in its price range.
I'd be interested to know what's the price of the DAC 25.2. I suspect it's better than the DACMagic, but at a significant price hike.
Thanks for your quick reply
Because I live in Denmark, it is very limited which types of DAC's people have, but those most people have is the dacmagic, and some have MH DAC 25.2 and some have Musical Fidelity V-DAC, where as the dacmagic costs just around 230£, and the MH DAC costs around 500£.
Because I referred to those DAC's was because it was those which is most popular here, but the MH DAC 25.2 is just about the double of the others.
Then if the Caiman+ sounded just as good as the MH DAC i know what I would choose... :-)
I have a Musical Fidelity VDAC and am very please with it. It replaced an Arcam Black Box 5 which itself replaced a Mission DAC 5. I think the VDAC is the best of the three.
I can't comment on sound quality, but the Caiman does have 1 capability that the others lack: it is the only DAC in your group that can also be used as a pre-amp.
CD
All your Dacs are belong to us....
magiccarpetride
20-05-2010, 16:22
I can't comment on sound quality, but the Caiman does have 1 capability that the others lack: it is the only DAC in your group that can also be used as a pre-amp.
CD
Also, don't forget that the Caiman can be used for those occasions when you need two tiny blue lights shining in your room.
I ought to add that the components in your average DAC don't have to cost the earth these days, 'cos they don't. Obviously, adding a valve output stage is going to add to the cost (as well as the distortion and noise, but we don't go there do we :lol:), but for some companies to charge thousands for a modern DAC (the £2K Naim one looking cheap in their company) is preposterous IMO, Stan showing what can be done in tweaks for a £50 difference in retail price..
MF's cheaper stuff can be truly inspired IMO. The basic designs (by Tim de P?) do work very well and can respond favourably to better components here and there, the old X series being an excellent case in point (although the old preamp was pretty darned good as it was).
magiccarpetride
20-05-2010, 16:39
I've seen a lot of positive opinions regarding Caiman, and have then looked at the new Caiman+ (don't need USB), but how does it perform against DAC's like Cambridge Dacmagic and Music Hall DAC 25.2? After burn-in of course...
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David
After auditioning the Caiman with different audio systems, I'll make a bold statement here that one cannot truly appreciate this little gem of a DAC unless one plugs it into a very high-end, well balanced audio chain. It is with speakers such as Magneplanars, or good electrostatics, that this DAC truly comes to full bloom and shows you how much REAL music can actually get squeezed from the paltry Red Book CD.
Good god, I couldn't believe that so much musical information could be hiding inside the 16-bit, 44KHz 'grooves' until I paired the Caiman with my Maggies!
dave2010
20-05-2010, 17:31
David
Because I live in Denmark, it is very limited which types of DAC's people have, but those most people have is the dacmagic, and some have MH DAC 25.2 and some have Musical Fidelity V-DAC, where as the dacmagic costs just around 230£, and the MH DAC costs around 500£.
I was perhaps in a similar situation to you a few months ago. I didn't know whether I wanted a DAC or not. I tried the DACMagic, but took it back - didn't quite do it for me. I wasn't sure about the Caiman, and I toyed with the idea of getting one of the cheaper models, but in the end I figured that the Caiman would perhaps deliver the qualities I was looking for. Further, though the 7520s can be modded, they can't quite be brought up to the same level apparently, and the cost of modding is pretty much the same as buying a Caiman outright, unless you're a keen DIYer I think.
I also thought that if some of the 7520s and similar are fetching quite high prices on eBay, that if I didn't like the Caiman, there'd be a fairly ready market for selling on. So, after a day or two deliberating I took the plunge.
My initial reaction was mostly favourable, though the unit didn't seem to work quite so well on all music. Initially I thought large scale orchestral music sounded a bit hard. The unit does improve over time, and after a reasonable burn in period the quality shows itself and it seems sweet enough now. As a result I'm definitely not intending to put mine on eBay. Indeed I might later on buy another and start going the mod routes which some around here seem keen on. Again I figure that it's unlikely I'd be much out of pocket as long as any mods didn't screw a unit up completely.
Unless you are prepared to go straight for something much more expensive, I'd say give it a try.
HectorHughMunro
23-05-2010, 17:58
Something to bear in mind is Cambridge customer service isn't the best (or wasn't for me). A repair for a 840c for me took 13 months and half a dozen angry exchanges. When I first approached the shop (Richers), I was told 'couple of months' so I'm not sure that it's ever 'Quad' style service.
Beresford is very quick indeed. My experience of Musical Fidelity is also very good.
Luckily, modern consumer electronics rarely go wrong.
I had the chance to compare a DacMagic against Caiman, and was not impressed by the Caiman at all.
In my impression, the DacMagic delivers better stereo image and more detailed sound. The Caiman sounded a bit dull.
FuriousD
14-06-2010, 11:44
I know that there is a big price difference between the too but has anyone compared or can comment on the difference between the Caiman and the Lavry DA10?
Cheers
D
I had the chance to compare a DacMagic against Caiman, and was not impressed by the Caiman at all.
In my impression, the DacMagic delivers better stereo image and more detailed sound. The Caiman sounded a bit dull.
Just shows how opinions differ, last time I heard a DM I didn't rate it and preferred the Caiman although to be fair the one I have has been modded.
One thing I wouldn't call the Caiman and thats dull, anyway we all have our opinions eh :)
Because I live in Denmark.....
....
Then if the Caiman+ sounded just as good as the MH DAC i know what I would choose... :-)
David; if you are mobile then I have one of the first Caiman+ running in my main setup. Send me a PM if interested...
You may want to consider this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Matrix-mini-i-24-192-Balanced-DAC-Headphone-Amp-/350235725907
It's causing a bit of a stir on various forums and review sites.
Better than the Beresford and Cambridge and on a par with the Benchmark according to one review.
The Vinyl Adventure
17-06-2010, 11:13
I'd spotted that matrix thing. Thought it looked interesting... I wonder where they got the idea for that design from
http://hllyaudio.com/images/categories/6.jpg
http://www.belcantodesign.com/images/prod_DAC3_angled.jpg
Thats the Chinese for yer ;)
You may want to consider this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Matrix-mini-i-24-192-Balanced-DAC-Headphone-Amp-/350235725907
It's causing a bit of a stir on various forums and review sites.
Better than the Beresford and Cambridge and on a par with the Benchmark according to one review.
XLR Output, pre-amp, competitive price, and good reviews to boot. Boy am I salivating over this............Oops!! got to wipe my keyboard:)
CD
Looking a bit more into the reviews, the comments of lush and smooth are commonplace. The mini-matrix uses the OPA21** opamp, and those observations are similar to mine when I had the OPA2132 in my 7520. I may have to re-visit that.
The main reason I took out the OPA2132 was because the 36K and 100nf mod were meant for the LM4562NA and may not have worked to well with the OPA2132.
Hmmmm...........
A review here
http://www.headphonista.com/matrix-mini-i/
StanleyB
17-06-2010, 16:40
The reviewer compared it to the TC-7520, not the Caiman ;). I am surprised that it would be compared to the Benchmark. The latter is infamous for its brightness and subtle bass. Most buyers look for an analogue sounding DAC these days now that these are more widely available compared to just a few years ago.
How would you characterise "an analogue sounding DAC", Stan.
StanleyB
17-06-2010, 18:27
Ever heard a good turntable/phono preamp Brian?
I'd spotted that matrix thing. Thought it looked interesting... I wonder where they got the idea for that design from
http://hllyaudio.com/images/categories/6.jpg
http://www.belcantodesign.com/images/prod_DAC3_angled.jpg
Nice. Any more thoughts on this DAC?
Ever heard a good turntable/phono preamp Brian?
Me? I haven't owned a turntable in near on a quarter century. That's why I ask, "What is a good analogue sound?"
You mean a smooth digital sound that doesn't grate your teeth?
Now I will get pounced on. I'm used to it.
Me? I haven't owned a turntable in near on a quarter century. That's why I ask, "What is a good analogue sound?"
You mean a smooth digital sound that doesn't grate your teeth?
Now I will get pounced on. I'm used to it.If I may use an analogy; it is a bit like apples!
There are good apples, not so good apples and bad apples.
Good apples will taste better than not so good apples and bad apples.
Similarily,
There are good analogue sounds, not so good analogue sounds and bad analogue sounds.
"A good analogue sound" will sound better than not so good analogue sound and bad analogue sound.
The taste of an apple can only be experienced by chewing it in the mouth.
Similarily, an analogue sound can only be experienced by listening to it with the ears.
:cool:
AntonioJ
14-01-2013, 21:28
Good evening,
I don't know if this is the place, but wanting to put things in perspective maybe it is.
Today I received the Gator board Stan kindly help me get from him. Fast and safe. Thank you Stan for such a wonderful DAC and board!
Installed it in a breeze and plugged into the system. Even though I'll let it brew for some time, the sound pouring through was phenomenal. Better in all respects to what was before. Great upgrade indeed.
Now comparison will begin in the next days with a MSB Link DAC, a Meier Audio Corda StageDAC and a Wadia 121. :D
Cheers,
Antonio
AntonioJ
17-01-2013, 22:31
I don't cease to amaze at this little thing..., what clarity ! winning Wadia in terms of price/performance as of now.
The reviewer compared it to the TC-7520, not the Caiman ;). I am surprised that it would be compared to the Benchmark. The latter is infamous for its brightness and subtle bass. Most buyers look for an analogue sounding DAC these days now that these are more widely available compared to just a few years ago.
Hello Stan,
Do you think that Benchmark is bright in your opinion? I've not hear it, but there are plenty of good reviews on the net for it. I thought that maybe in the future Benchmark may be my upgrade from recent Caiman 7520SEG, but if it's bright I am not going to consider it, especially with Grado 325is right?
StanleyB
04-12-2013, 09:50
Right. There is also the option of the Caiman MKII when that is ready.
What information can you now release about Caiman MkII, Stan?
StanleyB
04-12-2013, 10:14
What information can you now release about Caiman MkII, Stan?
It is wider than the BM2, and has several USP features. The expansion option for future upgrades is also more thorough. The Raspberry Pi interface is the one that excites me most. But I am a lousy software writer so the Pi side of things I'll leave to 3rd party programmers.
Have you looked at what the Open Sourse Squeezebox community is up to, Stan?
That could be an interesting marriage.
Will the Caiman II be in a box big enough to house a Pi?
StanleyB
04-12-2013, 16:50
The Pi connects to it via an interface at the back of the DAC. But it's a lot more complicated than that. However, more info in good time. I have made the design a lot more open source to encourage third party items to be hooked up to it via the Pi. I am also working on a PC interface so that someone could write an app to control the DAC.
Coming back to the original title, anyone can say few words about how CMII compares to dacs like MF V90 or Cambridge Dac Magic Plus? Both have excellent measurements.
I have a MF V-90, and i much prefer The Caiman 2. To my ears it is much better. And make no mistake, The V-90 is actually very good.
I have a MF V-90, and i much prefer The Caiman 2. To my ears it is much better. And make no mistake, The V-90 is actually very good.
That is interesting. It is better in what specifically? Do you use its headphone out?
The C2 is a fair bit better than the DacMagic and the rDac. In fact even the C1 was better, as is the BM2.
The C2 is a fair bit better than the DacMagic and the rDac. In fact even the C1 was better, as is the BM2.
Thanks. Any thoughts about C2 headphone out? Guessing that is much better than in DacMagic Plus?
The headphone amp on the C2 is very usable, not sure the DacMagic had a headphone socket?
It's hardly worth comparing the two DACs at all, the C2 is a few classes above. Armed with battery power and a decent external USB/SPDIF converter it gives much more expensive DACs a run for their money.
It's hardly worth comparing the two DACs at all, the C2 is a few classes above. Armed with battery power and a decent external USB/SPDIF converter it gives much more expensive DACs a run for their money.
This is however additional cost. I am asking mostly about the DAC itself. I know that sometimes it's hard to compare two DACs, but if you own another one and bring new one to the home you may immediately notice the difference with spatiality, soundstage and details.
With some kit, dacs particularly in my experience, cost is not always a measure of sound quality.
Hearing them side by side is the only thing that matters imo.
Pride of ownership and having something "reassuringly expensive" can appeal to some though, and nothing wrong with that.
With some kit, dacs particularly in my experience, cost is not always a measure of sound quality.
Hearing them side by side is the only thing that matters imo.
Pride of ownership and having something "reassuringly expensive" can appeal to some though, and nothing wrong with that.
Completely agree, that's why I asked if you had a chance to own/audition another DACs and can compare them to the CMII to place it somewhere in between the concurrency usually available on the market.
Its a good question Krzysztof.
Cant help you though don't own a Caiman II! :)
Did have the original Caiman, as well as a few 7510's, and they stood up well against the competition at the same price level and above.
Its a good question Krzysztof.
Cant help you though don't own a Caiman II! :)
Did have the original Caiman, as well as a few 7510's, and they stood up well against the competition at the same price level and above.
I have 7520SEG CMI modded and indeed it is pretty good DAC, but I am trying to get as much information as I can before deciding to buy CMII.
The best way to answer might be to tell you my experience thus far.
First thing to mention is that most of my listening is vinyl, I wanted to expand into digital generally for classical listening.
The first DAC I bought was the DacMagik which is fine, has a nice tone but general performance is a little weak. I then tried an rDac which I thought performed a little better but perhaps lost something tonally.
I then bought a second-hand Caiman 1 with no mods or Gator, which I thought was a little better than both. I modded it to the max and added a Gator, after which I thought it was considerably better.
I then bought the BM2 which was, I thought, slightly better again. Adding battery power and a chip mod that Stan came up with earlier in the year then made it into a very pleasant sounding box indeed.
I then bought the Caiman 2 which initially I ran straight from optical out of my Mac with a battery pack which sounded a little better to me than the BM2. I then moved to external USB/SPDIF which raised it a notch or two again.
On the battery power, I think the C2 benefited less than the BM2, the difference being fairly marginal I thought.
So I guess if you can work your way through all that, what I'm saying is that the C2 out the box is a very decent sounding DAC, still way better than anything around that price.
The best way to answer might be to tell you my experience thus far.
First thing to mention is that most of my listening is vinyl, I wanted to expand into digital generally for classical listening.
The first DAC I bought was the DacMagik which is fine, has a nice tone but general performance is a little weak. I then tried an rDac which I thought performed a little better but perhaps lost something tonally.
I then bought a second-hand Caiman 1 with no mods or Gator, which I thought was a little better than both. I modded it to the max and added a Gator, after which I thought it was considerably better.
I then bought the BM2 which was, I thought, slightly better again. Adding battery power and a chip mod that Stan came up with earlier in the year then made it into a very pleasant sounding box indeed.
I then bought the Caiman 2 which initially I ran straight from optical out of my Mac with a battery pack which sounded a little better to me than the BM2. I then moved to external USB/SPDIF which raised it a notch or two again.
On the battery power, I think the C2 benefited less than the BM2, the difference being fairly marginal I thought.
So I guess if you can work your way through all that, what I'm saying is that the C2 out the box is a very decent sounding DAC, still way better than anything around that price.
Thank you. This is quite honest answer. If you are coming from the vinyl word, I suppose you're looking for more so called "warmly" sounding DACs with natural musicality. I found this flavor on CMI as well. Again, thanks a lot and I am pretty sold if CMII is two generation "better" than CMI.
Hello again,
After reading lots of posts and searching for a reviews I've finally purchased CMII directly from Stan and the item is on its way to my hands. I will compare it to my old modified CMI 7520 SEG and let you know how it sounds on my set up and over Grado SR325is as well.
bigmarty
03-10-2014, 20:58
Thank goodness for that !
:D
bigmarty
04-10-2014, 11:23
Please try and get a battery, as it really takes this dac up to another level. Looking forward to your views when it's had time to burn in.
All the best
Marty :D
maxrob200
14-11-2014, 00:38
Could someone help with a link to the Ankaka site for the correct battery product to use with Caiman 2. The site is not easy to navigate
I don't think this battery is on sale any more. I tried to look for one a few weeks ago but could not find it.
T12
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