Quality of components used in recent Quad products

[Barry]

Not sure if it's the 'done thing' to refer to posts on other fora, but being an admirer of Quad products, I feel it ought to bring this to your attention:

http://uk.mg.bt.mail.yahoo.com/dc/launch?.partner=bt-1&.gx=1&.rand=2au2kngatp05d et seq..

It would seem that now that the Quad brand is in Chinese hands, they are 'value engineering' the 909 by replacing some of the capacitors with what appears to be inferior Chinese types.

Caveat emptor!

Regards

[The Grand Wazoo]

Is that link to a Yahoo Newsgroup Barry? I don't think you can get in if you're not a subscriber.

[Spectral Morn]

Is that link to a Yahoo Newsgroup Barry? I don't think you can get in if you're not a subscriber.

Chris is right you need to be registered to the group to see anything.


Regards D S D L

[Barry]

Is that link to a Yahoo Newsgroup Barry? I don't think you can get in if you're not a subscriber.

Yes it is, and I am a subscriber (though I have only made about half a dozen postings there). I thought anyone could read the posts, whereas to make posts you do have to be a subscriber. If you click on the url, Chris can you read the posts?

If anyone is interested in the details, I could 'copy and paste', provided this doesn't breach copyright. Marco, can I have some advice on this please?

Regards

[Beechwoods]

Just 'quote it' and attribute it Barry - shouldn't be a problem...

[The Grand Wazoo]

No, all I get is an invitation to enter my user name & password. Once I do this I can only get into the groups I'm subscribed to.
Doctor Copy & Mr Paste are your friends here I think!

[Barry]

Just 'quote it' and attribute it Barry - shouldn't be a problem...

Will do. Thanks

[Barry]

The following posts are taken from The Yahoo News group: quadhifi@yahoogroup.s.com.
The posts should of course be read in reverse order (sorry!) I have corrected the spelling, where necessary.


Hello Yui-ming,

Thanks for noticing the Black Gate Non-Polar, I did not expect a non polar in that place. I modelled the 909’s circuit in MultiSim. When the output is -48V (a peak to peak swing of this voltage will produce 140 Watts RMS in 8 Ohm) the voltage across C7 is +3.2V. When the output is +48V, the voltage across C7 is +51V. So no need for Non-Polar's and a voltage rating of 63VDC is ok. Only in situations of component failure the voltage across C7 can be negative or too high, but than you are in trouble anyway. Bias a Non Polar will not harm it as far as I know, but the disadvantages of Non Polar's as Stefaan explained will stay.

Joost Plugge
www.dadaelectronics .eu


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, "Yui-ming" <ymlee@...> wrote:

Hi all senior members,

Noticed that the expensive gold Cap (C7) is a 47uF 50v BlackGate Non-polar capacitor, would like to know the maximum voltage across C7 under dynamic condition, with zero input, the voltage across C7 is around 27.5 Vdc. In 405 & 405-2, Quad use 47uf 40V on C10, On 520, 606, 606-2 909, it uses 47uf 63V. All models use +57 and -57 power voltages. Also as there is correct bias voltage across C7, by using non-polar cap with constant bias voltage cross it, will it shorten the life hours of Non-polar cap there?
Thanks & best regards,

Yui-ming


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, Clemensà <diheor@> wrote:

Hello all

I happen to own a Quad 909 and compared it to my old version 606 mk1 before I sold the 606. They sounded very much alike in my humble opinion. Does anyone know from what serial numbers of the 909s the "china syndrome" of the components happened?
Kind regards

Henrik


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, "arupg" <arupg@> wrote:

Hello Joost

He-He!! Regarding the CapXon, I hope to see good results from Stefaan. Funnily, upon moving from them to good ole Aerovox ALP22 series, the 909 was so much better. EL34GUY a member here (Mark in the US) has also experienced this on his 909.
And many thanks for the components movement. I hope am able to close the lid after moving the C7 to the foil side. But as correctly advised, better would be to move the resistors. In my 606-II, it’s even worse for space with Mundorf 22k caps in place of 15k. Hence, am quite put off repeatedly opening/closing the amp.
Anyway - thanks once again!

Arup


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, "joost678" <joost456@> wrote:

Hello Arup,

If you Google on CapXon - shock and horror. Not only in switch mode supplies but also in computer main boards as smoothing capacitors (our application). There is too much negativity to ignore. I hope Stefaan will find some answers. A suggestion on your pictures, next time place the expensive goldcap (C7) on the copper side, the heat of the resistors will certainly shorten the life of C7, or even better, place R16,R17and R24 on the copper side and leaf all the caps were they are. As I did in the 520f rebuild, see the blog.

Joost Plugge
www.dadaelectronics .eu


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, "arupg" <arupg@> wrote:

Thank you! That would be a great insight...
Regards

Arup


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, "Stefaan" <stefaan.verdonckt@ > wrote:

I will buy a set of those CapXon to test the 4 important values and to compare them to the BHC Aerovox
- Internal resistance
- Leakage current
- Frequency-dependency of the capacity.

I'll keep you posted.

Stefaan
www.dadaelectronics .eu


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, "arupg" <arupg@> wrote:

Hello Joost & Stefaan

Just happened to receive a friend's 909 for some upgrades. Please take a look here:

http://i43.tinypic. com/14c5nkp. jpg
http://i41.tinypic. com/10z4tv9. jpg
http://i39.tinypic. com/30nkzkm. jpg

You will see CapXon at C9, C11 & C7. Also the main 15k caps.

After the upgrades, the amp sounds so much closer to the 606/606-II/707. What a relief I all I can say! Brings the music back alive...
http://i43.tinypic. com/21cecde. jpg

Regards

Arup

P.S. @EL34GUY - Mark, yes! Just another piece like yours here...


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, "joost678" <joost456@> wrote:

Hello,

Until now, we had no 909 or 99 on our workbench with Chinese capacitors. In a 909 there is no electrolyte cap directly in the signal line, the Psu caps are more or less in the signal line, they form a short circuit between the H+ an H- for AC signals, so the effect's (excluding component failure) are second order, but not zero. There is no reason why a Chinese company couldn't produce decent caps. Sending component's around the world instead of using good local products is a no-brainer from a cost point of view, or CO2. BHC is taken over, where will they produce in the next phase of cost cutting? In a 99 there are electrolytes in the signal line, those badly biased coupling capacitors between the OPA's and/or switching stages, this design "error" started in the 44. So if quality is an issue, it should be noticed more dominantly in the 99. We keep you posted.

Stefaan Verdonckt
Joost Plugge
www.dadaelectronics .eu


--- In quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com, "Thomas Loob" <thomas.loob@ > wrote:

Think you're jumping the conclusions here...


Paul Seydor of The Absolute Sound magazine has a follow-up review of the current 99/909 in the new issue. I'll be curious to read if he still raves about it as much as he did over the 99/909 combo he reviewed several years back. (If I recall correctly, he thought it was an improvement over all previous current dumpers).


---- Original Message -----
From: "arupg" <arupg@yahoo. com>
To: <quadhifi@yahoogroup s.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:29 PM
Subject: [quadhifi] Shocking quality of passive parts inside newer 909 amp

Happened to take a peek inside at a later build of 909 off IAG China manufacturing. The main 15,000uF caps are now CapXon a Chinese brand (never heard of 'em before!) Gone are the BHC Aerovox. Same CapXon are also used elsewhere on the PCBs.
Shocking & am thoroughly disgusted! Now wonder the amp sounds downright lousy compared to a 606 or a 606-II.

[DSJR]

Now we all know that all caps sound the same, so noone need worry....... ;)

I suspect the 909 was extremely slurpy-profitable before, but these caps may just be easier to obtain.

A real shame if the amp is being ruined by inferior components as the design is a very good one.

[quadsugdenman]

Hi Guys
As my monicker suggests I was a huge fan of all things Quad / Sugden as they were solid British engineering and built in the UK. Certainly Sugden are continuing to soldier on in much the same way, however in the case of Quad I have become more disillusioned with the sound quality and especially the 909. :( I purchased a 909 recently and given it does need time to 'burn in' it struggled to come even close to my modified and upgraded 405 in terms of dynamics and bass resolution. Compared to my Croft, there is no comparison it is beaten in all areas apart from power output. I will be looking to compare with a friends 606II.
If IAG are meddling with the quality of Quad components they risk damaging their brand integrity, which from my commercial experience can NEVER be fully realised again.:mental:

Garry

[DSJR]

To be honest, Quad haven't done anything other than tinker with the established designs since the electrostatics were given a major makeover ten years or more ago. The valve amps are supposedly not as reliable as they should be (judging by posts here and there) and if the otherwise soundly designed 909 (itself a tweaked 606 unless I'm mistaken) has been cheapened further, I think it's a tragedy..

As for Sugden; a shame they price their goods so high. I'm told the current A21 has livened up a bit and is more neutral whilst keeping the "charm" it always had.

The old 405 circuit was perhaps a bit ambitious for the mid seventies. Dada amongst others, seem to have it well sorted now and they can supply replacement boards, as well as cap kits etc. The only real problem I had with both my 405-2's was a thermal one, the heatsinks not really able to control the heat when I was driving the inefficient but easy resistive load of the ATC SCM20's. You could fry eggs on the top plate..

If my crowns blew up, I'd be quite happy to have a tweaked 405-2 or 606mk2 again. very spacious and almost "valvey" in the best sense of the term. A clients 606mk1 stone cold made tonal mincemeat out of a Chord 1200 which was also cold and also a well warmed up Krell KAV500, this latter blowing its output stage very easily if provoked.

[quadsugdenman]

Hi David,

Having spoken to Patrick Miller TD at Sugden in the past, the reason for their higher prices are that their amps are still hand built built in the UK and therefore incur the higher associated labour costs. Unlike numerous others they have not scuttled off to China taking UK jobs with them. I agree regarding the sound of recent Sugden amps, but think things are changing on that front.
Yes the 405's do run very hot, but once correctly fettled are really rather good compared to other ss 'superamps', and £ for £ excellent value. They do 'exactly what it says on the tin'.
If what is being discussed here and elsewhere is true regarding the 909 and the use of cheaper/inferior components, then IAG are really 'playing with fire' and will really piss off yer traditional UK hifi punter :steam:. It would be interesting to hear what Mr P J Comeau has to say about this as he is the 'big cheese' with IAG in China now.

Garry

[Ali Tait]

It does beg the thought though,will they even care? In the grand scheme of things,how big is the UK market for them?

[quadsugdenman]

It does beg the thought though,will they even care? In the grand scheme of things,how big is the UK market for them?

Unfortunately Ali I think you maybe so right. My (or other UK enthusiasts) rather parochial view of their approach would not even raise a 'tinkers cuss' in the boardrooms of the IAG group.:(

[StanleyB]

the use of cheaper/inferior components,
'Cheaper' is not the same as 'inferior'. There is no price correlation to back up any such claim. A manufacturer can sell a component at whatever price he wants, irrespective of manufacturing cost. Similarly, a component reseller can re-sell the part at whatever markup he wishes. Some brand names printed on a component are not always genuine manufacturer parts.

If you travel to China and approach the 'right' people you can have any quantity of volume controls printed ALPS on them, or caps marked Black Gate etc. It's that simple. Of course you would never suspect anyone of selling you a fake brand of on electrical or electronic component, but I am sure you would think otherwise if you were offered a copy of Avatar or Windows7 in 'genuine' packaging from the same source.

So which would you trust more? A branded high quality component from China or a boxed set of Windows 7 bought in the same country?

[Ali Tait]

Good points Stan.

[quadsugdenman]

Maybe I should have just said inferior. I have a cynical view of multinationals as you well know Stanley. I wrongly equated cheaper with inferior, however knowing how most multinationals work, motive overoad substance.