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View Full Version : Caiman preamp vs. DSP 200s preamp



magiccarpetride
17-05-2010, 16:24
I've spent some time yesterday comparing the Caiman preamp with my DSP 200s preamp. After fiddling around and setting up the volume of both preamps to be at the approximately same level, I've played familiar music through both preamps, and made comparative notes.

But first, the level matching: not sure why, but the Caiman preamp is much, much quieter than the DSP 200s preamp. If we imagine the volume knob to be the face of a clock, I typically listen to music at the levels between 9:00 o'clock and 9:30. Rarely do I ever go up to 10:00 o'clock (things get really loud at that point). In this experiment, I had my DSP 200s at approximately 9:30 o'clock.

Oddly enough, the Caiman preamp had to be set all the way up to between 2:30 and 3:00 o'clock to match that volume. For any louder music, the Caiman would have to be pretty much maxed out.

On to the sound quality: no spectacular differences to report here. On the first listen, it sounded to me like the Caiman had more openness in the highs, as well as more depth in the bass. As soon as I switched over to DSP 200s, however, that proved not to be the case. I think that both preamps operate at approximately same level of their ability to render faithful highs and lows.

Resolution: in a busier, more dynamic passage, I heard previously unnoticed details with the Caiman preamp. Playing back that same passage through DSP 200s I was surprised to hear different details that I couldn't catch through the Caiman. But the details I heard through the Caiman were absent in DSP 200s. Hmm, this is the point where I've started to scratch my head. Then, upon repeat listening, I kind of realized that the difference in the details boiled down to the difference in how two preamps played the phrase on the electric keyboard: The Caiman played it more staccato, while the DSP 200s played it more legato. But it was the same phrase, only played in somewhat different styles.

Interesting, eh? At this point, I wouldn't know which of the two styles I'd prefer. Both sound super musical to me, both are very pleasing. Just the fact that here we have two components rendering the exact same music material with slightly different styles is very intriguing. If I had to choose, I'd be hard pressed to go with one or the other.

As a matter of fact, if switching between these two preamps wasn't such a hassle, I wouldn't mind flip-flopping as the mood hits me, and listening to the Caiman on one day, and to the DSP 200s on another day. Or even switching back and forth in the midstream. If only that were doable from a remote control, I think it would actually be fun. Lot's of fun!

So basically it's a toss-off for me. But the deal breaker is the quietness of the Caiman preamp. I don't think I could live with that.

Now, I'm left wondering if there is any particular reason for such huge discrepancy between the two preamps in terms of loudness?

John
17-05-2010, 16:51
Is one passive and the other active

The Vinyl Adventure
17-05-2010, 16:56
Didn't chris mention something about these pre and power amps being quite specifically designed to work with each other? Maybe that's something to do with it?

The Vinyl Adventure
17-05-2010, 16:59
This is what he said... Might the be the reason?

I've been having a nose around on the DPA site - apparently their amps are DC coupled.
They also only give out 1v output from the pre to power.
Does this point to the possible cause of the noise issues that Alex is experiencing.

Codifus
17-05-2010, 17:20
...Now, I'm left wondering if there is any particular reason for such huge discrepancy between the two preamps in terms of loudness?

If your Caiman variable outputs are connected to your DPA 200 and you set the Caiman to max volume, the output is underwhelming? Is the music a bit less dynamic, less punchy?

My hunch is that there is an input sensitivity miss-match between your Caiman and the DPA 200. Does the manual for your DPA 200 specify input sensitivity specifications? Things such as an input impedance of 20K ohms, max voltage of 2V etc.

Also, I did quick search on Google. You have the Deltec DPA 200, correct? Not much info can be found on the net.

Hmmmmmmm.................

CD

EDIT: OK I found a review stating the specs here;

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/DPA/images/DPA200S_2.jpg

250mv sensitivity suggests that the Caiman should blow it away. Given the low output observations you made, I would then think that the input impedance on the DPA200 is too high, thus choking the Caiman, so to speak.

Solution? since your shopping for a better amp, let's just stick with that, then:) Actually, your situation sounds similar to my own. My 7520 could not drive my Behringer EP2000 amp adequetly. The problem was that the Behringer is expecting PRO level impedances/voltages and the 7520/Caiman are specified for consumer level impedances/voltage. I purchased a samson s-convert to bump up my 7520s output and match the impedance of the amplifier.

End result is that my amp now delivers music with plenty of gusto.

Ali Tait
17-05-2010, 17:27
Well not dissing the Beresford (I have one myself) but I did say the DPA stuff is pretty good...

magiccarpetride
17-05-2010, 17:41
Well not dissing the Beresford (I have one myself) but I did say the DPA stuff is pretty good...

Yes, at this point I must say I'm impressed with the DPA since it managed to match the Caiman in terms of musicality (did I mention that the Caiman is extremely musical?)

Still, the above discussion indicates that, with some adjustments (adding samson s-convert?), it may pull the Caiman out of its 'disadvantage' here.

The jury may be still out...

Codifus
17-05-2010, 17:47
Yes, at this point I must say I'm impressed with the DPA since it managed to match the Caiman in terms of musicality (did I mention that the Caiman is extremely musical?)

Still, the above discussion indicates that, with some adjustments (adding samson s-convert?), it may pull the Caiman out of its 'disadvantage' here.

The jury may be still out...

I hesititated to suggest the s-convert in my previous post because I get the strange feeling that the DPA200 has it's own unique input characteristics. Not quite consumer level, not quite pro level either. The s-convert matches a consumer level device to a pro level device with some wiggle room in its adjustable parameters. The DPA 200 and Caiman are both cosumer level devices, so :scratch:

CD

StanleyB
17-05-2010, 18:12
The Caiman gives out 2Vrms, whilst a lot of preamps can produce between 3Vrms and 6Vrms.
I'll see if I can increase the variable output, without affecting the fixed output.

Ali Tait
17-05-2010, 18:30
Alex,what are you using as sources?

magiccarpetride
17-05-2010, 18:35
Alex,what are you using as sources?

Logitech Squeezebox Duet.

Ali Tait
17-05-2010, 18:50
Can you try it direct into your amp using the digital volume to see if it can drive the power amp? Do you know what it's output is?

magiccarpetride
17-05-2010, 18:52
Can you try it direct into your amp using the digital volume to see if it can drive the power amp? Do you know what it's output is?

I've disabled the digital volume, because I've noticed that the sound is strikingly better and more focused when that feature is turned off. I'll try your suggestion...

Ali Tait
17-05-2010, 18:56
Just to eliminate stuff.I'm guessing the Duet will have an output close to 2v.

magiccarpetride
17-05-2010, 18:58
Just to eliminate stuff.I'm guessing the Duet will have an output close to 2v.

Don't know, will have to check it out.