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Mikeandvan
03-05-2019, 22:47
Couldn't resist the 401 that was advertised on here recently. I'm quite happy with my Notts analogue cheapie deck, but would love something as good with its own ON/OFF and speed change buttons!! No idea how the presentation will differ, or whether I will like it, but just thought I'd get a few pointers about plinths etc. I just bought the motor unit, I have a Jelco 750D on the NA so I'm gonna use that, my cart is a Nag MP 200. So, anyone know where I can get a decent plinth, not too expensive? I guess that rules out slate? What makes the more expensive plinths better? I see ones on Ebay from Eastern Europe, just plywood I think, for around a £100, what is the difference between those and a layers of beauty one for instance? I mean the cut out is so basic, the rest is just a lump of material for the TT to sit in. Of course if anybody's got a spare one lying around...…….

Bigman80
03-05-2019, 23:03
Couldn't resist the 401 that was advertised on here recently. I'm quite happy with my Notts analogue cheapie deck, but would love something as good with its own ON/OFF and speed change buttons!! No idea how the presentation will differ, or whether I will like it, but just thought I'd get a few pointers about plinths etc. I just bought the motor unit, I have a Jelco 750D on the NA so I'm gonna use that, my cart is a Nag MP 200. So, anyone know where I can get a decent plinth, not too expensive? I guess that rules out slate? What makes the more expensive plinths better? I see ones on Ebay from Eastern Europe, just plywood I think, for around a £100, what is the difference between those and a layers of beauty one for instance? I mean the cut out is so basic, the rest is just a lump of material for the TT to sit in. Of course if anybody's got a spare one lying around...…….I'd totally recommend a Panzerholtz plinth if you can find someone to make it. Angus did mine and it's just rock solid and sounds fantastic. I think Nick? At NWA has his in slate. That one sounded good.

Mikeandvan
03-05-2019, 23:20
I'd totally recommend a Panzerholtz plinth if you can find someone to make it. Angus did mine and it's just rock solid and sounds fantastic. I think Nick? At NWA has his in slate. That one sounded good.

The 401 was serviced at NWA actually. They don't put prices on their website for plinths though, you know its going to be reassuringly expensive!

WESTLOWER
03-05-2019, 23:45
Couldn't resist the 401 that was advertised on here recently. I'm quite happy with my Notts analogue cheapie deck, but would love something as good with its own ON/OFF and speed change buttons!! No idea how the presentation will differ, or whether I will like it, but just thought I'd get a few pointers about plinths etc. I just bought the motor unit, I have a Jelco 750D on the NA so I'm gonna use that, my cart is a Nag MP 200. So, anyone know where I can get a decent plinth, not too expensive? I guess that rules out slate? What makes the more expensive plinths better? I see ones on Ebay from Eastern Europe, just plywood I think, for around a £100, what is the difference between those and a layers of beauty one for instance? I mean the cut out is so basic, the rest is just a lump of material for the TT to sit in. Of course if anybody's got a spare one lying around...…….

Can vouch for Russ Collinson layers of beauty plinths . Excellent.
But if you want a freebie I have this in the shed
And can drop to Portslade (I see you are in Brighton)
I suppose the top plate can be cut for any other arm
Will just need some attention...

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?56511-Sme-2000-plinth-free-for-garrard-401-amp-sme-3012-arm&highlight=Sme+2000+plinth

oldius
04-05-2019, 04:57
Try Ebay. I had a slate plinthed 401 and loved it. At £100, you may pick up a used plinth if you are very lucky.

Enjoy the 401, they're a great deck.

Ali Tait
04-05-2019, 05:45
Mine is in a twin tier slate plinth. Try picking up some slabs of slate from a stonemason and either cut them out yourself or find a local place with CNC facilities that will do it for you. I’ve heard 401’s in various plinths and slate sounds best to my ears.

oldius
04-05-2019, 06:01
I agree that slate is a great option.

Mikeandvan
04-05-2019, 11:08
Can vouch for Russ Collinson layers of beauty plinths . Excellent.
But if you want a freebie I have this in the shed
And can drop to Portslade (I see you are in Brighton)
I suppose the top plate can be cut for any other arm
Will just need some attention...

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?56511-Sme-2000-plinth-free-for-garrard-401-amp-sme-3012-arm&highlight=Sme+2000+plinth

Hi Adam, that would be much appreciated!

Mikeandvan
04-05-2019, 11:21
Mine is in a twin tier slate plinth. Try picking up some slabs of slate from a stonemason and either cut them out yourself or find a local place with CNC facilities that will do it for you. I’ve heard 401’s in various plinths and slate sounds best to my ears.

How does one cut slate? I suppose stone age man must have done it!

JohnG
04-05-2019, 11:43
Slate is a relatively soft stone.
Diamond Tipped Stone Cutting Discs and Tungsten Carbide Jigsaw Blades will allow it to be worked as a DIY Job.
I would speak to a Stone Masons about surface polishing, as they have machines that can apply multi tonnes of pressure and produce a very high quality finish.
I did this with my 9 Stone in weight, Granite Monolith Plinth for my 401.
We are all getting older, so ones back is much more valued today, moving that Plinth was a worry.

Mikeandvan
04-05-2019, 11:47
Slate is a relatively soft stone.
Diamond Tipped Stone Cutting Discs and Tungsten Carbide Jigsaw Blades will allow it to be worked as a DIY Job.
I would speak to a Stone Masons about surface polishing, as they have machines that can apply multi tonnes of pressure and produce a very high quality finish.
I did this with my 9 Stone in weight, Granite Monolith Plinth for my 401.
We are all getting older, so ones back is much more valued today, moving that Plinth was a worry.

Pics please! Think I'd likely make a pigs ear of it, so best save up the pennies ……...

DiveDeepDog
04-05-2019, 12:11
I've got 2 slate plinths here, 1 diy.
I drilled around the cutout, then jigsaw to join up the dots, finish off with battered router cutter and angle grinder.
Not a pleasant job, but we do daft things.

Be aware UK slate (Welsh and Cumbrian ) I'd still be drilling the holes, there's a wide range of slate available and certain slabs are as hard as granite.

FWIW, I use and prefer birch ply. If you're contemplating DIY start there and get a feel of the deck. Play around with dampening and try the Lorricroft design (top plate on squash balls) they all sound different, not necessarily better.
I think sometimes we associate high cost with better as we've already gone down the rabbit hole with nowhere to turn around. Look at the 2nd hand values quoted here and you'll understand why there aren't many 2nd hand slate plinths around.*

*Retail for a 2 tier slate plinth is £1000-1500, 2nd hand value is fek all.

Mikeandvan
04-05-2019, 12:39
I've got 2 slate plinths here, 1 diy.
I drilled around the cutout, then jigsaw to join up the dots, finish off with battered router cutter and angle grinder.
Not a pleasant job, but we do daft things.

Be aware UK slate (Welsh and Cumbrian ) I'd still be drilling the holes, there's a wide range of slate available and certain slabs are as hard as granite.

FWIW, I use and prefer birch ply. If you're contemplating DIY start there and get a feel of the deck. Play around with dampening and try the Lorricroft design (top plate on squash balls) they all sound different, not necessarily better.
I think sometimes we associate high cost with better as we've already gone down the rabbit hole with nowhere to turn around. Look at the 2nd hand values quoted here and you'll understand why there aren't many 2nd hand slate plinths around.*

*Retail for a 2 tier slate plinth is £1000-1500, 2nd hand value is fek all.

Thanks Mark, that's instructive. No way do I have that sort of money to spend on a slate plinth! Westflower has very kindly offered me his old plinth free, so will get a feel for the 401 firstly, then just lurk around the forums until someone gets too old to change records for a slate plinth!

Mikeandvan
06-05-2019, 12:06
Think I'll eventually try a different arm on the 401, something classic like a 3009, would that and a cart like a shure M55 or whatever they're called, be a good combo for classic 60s beat/rock'n'roll? Read on another thread here that the Mission 774 was a good choice for the 401 as well, which is good, cos they're cheap. Is it right that the 3009 and similar arms are lighter weight and more suited to classic carts, and hence music from that period, like jazz etc? Thinking of running 2 TTs, even though space is limited in my 1 bed flat.

Spectral Morn
06-05-2019, 13:10
God help you, there are more answers to this question than you might have expected. Everyone has the one true way etc and there is little consensus.

I am glad you got the 401 though.

I would like a more conventional looking plinth, than the one I ended up with.

By the way don't go with squash balls as they deflate unevenly and the deck won't be level. Not sure myself what to use to get round that. Sorbothane balls are a suggestion, but they to compress and with the weight of the motor unit being heavier than where the arm is, same issue as squash balls will occur I feel.

Ali Tait
06-05-2019, 13:37
Yes I have a 774 with my 401. Great combo.

Mikeandvan
17-05-2019, 00:20
Starting to look at plinths. Is there any difference in sq between a cheapo one like this https://www.bonanzamarket.co.uk/listings/Plinth-for-Garrard-401-Oak/595621607?goog_pla=1&gpid=318766196099&keyword=&goog_pla=1&pos=1o1&ad_type=pla&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6f-AyKOh4gIVq53tCh3BEQhVEAQYASABEgJHXfD_BwE and a 'full monty' Layers of beauty at £800? I mean its just a lump of ply right? What else is there? Apart from looks I see no difference, thoughts? I do like the piano black ones though http://www.dasacoustic.com/en/modell/garrard-401-9/ , sunken TT, they look great, but cost about £500.

mbic
17-05-2019, 20:37
Mine is made by Slateage https://www.slateage.com/ Superb looks and sound.

mbic
17-05-2019, 20:44
Mine is made by Slateage https://www.slateage.com/ Superb looks and sound.

Spectral Morn
17-05-2019, 21:08
Mine is made by Slateage https://www.slateage.com/ Superb looks and sound.

Roughly how much

Cycleallday
18-05-2019, 10:05
How does one cut slate? I suppose stone age man must have done it!

Water jet cnc will do it very quickly and neatly - many small engineering firms use these

REXTON
18-05-2019, 11:11
Type of wood supposedly determines the "tone" of your deck. I was VERY sceptical until I started playing around with ebony. I'll only impart two pieces of advice, firstly modify the deck one mod a time and carefully note positive/negative effects. Secondly, enjoy yourself. I have a SME 3009 with Shure v15 Mk3 with the JICO SAS/s stylus on mine and it rakes up tremendous amounts of details, my 3009 is also set up as a "real sound" tonearm with vintage tinned copper tonearm cable and IC's, again I was sceptical but it produces a fantastic sound to more more analytical SME 3012 setup. You picked a great deck, I think you'll have lots of fun. ��

Mikeandvan
20-05-2019, 14:07
Type of wood supposedly determines the "tone" of your deck. I was VERY sceptical until I started playing around with ebony. I'll only impart two pieces of advice, firstly modify the deck one mod a time and carefully note positive/negative effects. Secondly, enjoy yourself. I have a SME 3009 with Shure v15 Mk3 with the JICO SAS/s stylus on mine and it rakes up tremendous amounts of details, my 3009 is also set up as a "real sound" tonearm with vintage tinned copper tonearm cable and IC's, again I was sceptical but it produces a fantastic sound to more more analytical SME 3012 setup. You picked a great deck, I think you'll have lots of fun. ��

Thanks Andrew, I was also thinking of getting a 3009 or Mission 774 and a classic cart like one of the shures. What do you mean by 'real sound' tonearm? And what difference does copper tonearm cable make? I got a Jelco 750D I will try with it first though. I have a starter plinth kindly given to me by Westflower of this forum, but I've yet to set it up, just an old SME plinth, but with lead lining. Looks wise the nicest plinths I've seen are those compact slate ones with the TT sunk (flush with plinth), they look awesome with the 401, but of course we all know looks come second to SQ and I'm not sure whether I'll like slate or wood.

walpurgis
20-05-2019, 14:13
I was also thinking of getting a 3009 or Mission 774

No contest there. The 774 would wipe the floor with the 3009 for sound quality. I've had several of each and know what they sound like.

Bigman80
20-05-2019, 14:22
No contest there. The 774 would wipe the floor with the 3009 for sound quality. I've had several of each and know what they sound like.Agree with Geoff. Had both. The Mission is better

Stratmangler
20-05-2019, 14:58
How does one cut slate? I suppose stone age man must have done it!

What, making slate roofing tiles for their huts? :rfl:
There has been a slate industry in Wales since Roman times.

killie99
20-05-2019, 15:01
The Jelco 750 works a treat with the 401, and it doesn't look out of place

https://i.postimg.cc/HWrP7ZvR/401.jpg

Macca
20-05-2019, 15:04
What, making slate roofing tiles for their huts? :rfl:
.

No, kitchen worktops. And flags for their patios. Tiled rooves hadn't been invented back then.

Mikeandvan
20-05-2019, 18:03
What, making slate roofing tiles for their huts? :rfl:
There has been a slate industry in Wales since Roman times.

Weapons? Arrow heads etc?

Mikeandvan
20-05-2019, 18:04
Cheers guy, the Misson 774 appears to be quite cheap as well. Will keep an eye out for one. Any typical carts to match?

Mikeandvan
20-05-2019, 18:05
The Jelco 750 works a treat with the 401, and it doesn't look out of place

https://i.postimg.cc/HWrP7ZvR/401.jpg

That's a nice compact plinth.

walpurgis
20-05-2019, 18:22
Cheers guy, the Misson 774 appears to be quite cheap as well. Will keep an eye out for one. Any typical carts to match?

Take your pick. The 774 will work well with just about any cartridge, MM or MC, high compliance or low compliance, just vary the fluid damping to suit. I sometimes add a weight at the headshell with stiffer MC's, but that's only 'cos I'm too lazy to swap damping fluid or paddles.

REXTON
20-05-2019, 18:29
. What do you mean by 'real sound' tonearm? .

Real sound was a concept made popular by Jeff Day over on the now defunct jeffs place blog, it can now be found here https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/welcome-to-jeffs-place/ basically its one man's journey into using various vintage hifi, alongside tinned copper and duelund components. It's a bit obsessive but I enjoy reading it. For fun, I made up a small "real sound" system, compromising of The Garrard 301, the SME 3009 tonearm (wired with original tinned copper tonearm wiring and tonearm cable), a highly modded EAR 834 clone, and some IC's and speaker cable made up from Duelund components, and a pair of Celestion Ditton 15 speaker that I rewired with Duelund cable. It's basically a very relaxed sounding system which is great fun. I don't take it seriously but it does sound pretty good and works even better after a dose of single malt!!!

killie99
20-05-2019, 19:47
Just watch, there are 2 versions of the 774, you need this one:

https://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/mission_774.jpg

and not this one:

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/113222976850_/Mission-774LC-Tonearm-Linn-geometry-and-mounting-Ideal.jpg

Mikeandvan
20-05-2019, 19:49
Just watch, there are 2 versions of the 774, you need this one:

https://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/mission_774.jpg

Not any?

Macca
20-05-2019, 19:54
Weapons? Arrow heads etc?

They used flint for them. Not that you couldn't whack someone over the head with a slate thus inadvertently inventing an Eric Sykes comedy routine about 4000 years too early.

walpurgis
20-05-2019, 20:46
Just watch, there are 2 versions of the 774, you need this one:

https://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/mission_774.jpg

and not this one:

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/113222976850_/Mission-774LC-Tonearm-Linn-geometry-and-mounting-Ideal.jpg

First picture not working for me. The second image is the cheap 774LC, made by Jelco if I recall. Not worth considering really.

This is the 'proper' 774 arm. I still have three.

http://i63.tinypic.com/adgfhj.png

Mikeandvan
20-05-2019, 22:06
First picture not working for me. The second image is the cheap 774LC, made by Jelco if I recall. Not worth considering really.

This is the 'proper' 774 arm. I still have three.

http://i63.tinypic.com/adgfhj.png

Aah, images working now so makes sense.

walpurgis
20-05-2019, 22:24
A few things to consider.

The 774 has a threaded 'headblock' rather than a headshell as such and only accepts cartridges that can be screwed to it from the underside. The armtube easily detaches for this, but it means cartridges with threaded holes don't fit unless the headblock is drilled through and long bolts used. My main armtube has been drilled through, although I have others that are not drilled.

It would originally have been supplied with two bias weights and three damping paddles of varying sizes. Often some are missing, substitutes can be made though.

Damping fluid can be a bit pricey, but STP (petrol) oil treatment works fine at a fraction of the cost. Fluid viscosity can be varied by mixing fine silicone oil into damping fluids.

Never overtighten the scew on the armtube clamp. You can strip the thread or break the clamp casting!

Very high compliance cartridges such as vintage ADC's, Shures, Empires and Ortofons can be used without damping.

Decca Mk.V Londons work extremely well in a damped 774, but the headblock needs drilling for these.

The 774 'sounds' different to any other arm!

Barry
20-05-2019, 22:53
A few things to consider.

The 774 has a threaded 'headblock' rather than a headshell as such and only accepts cartridges that can be screwed to it from the underside. The armtube easily detaches for this, but it means cartridges with threaded holes don't fit unless the headblock is drilled through and long bolts used. My main armtube has been drilled through, although I have others that are not drilled.

It would originally have been supplied with two bias weights and three damping paddles of varying sizes. Often some are missing, substitutes can be made though.

Damping fluid can be a bit pricey, but STP (petrol) oil treatment works fine at a fraction of the cost. Fluid viscosity can be varied by mixing fine silicone oil into damping fluids.

Never overtighten the scew on the armtube clamp. You can strip the thread or break the clamp casting!

Very high compliance cartridges such as vintage ADC's, Shures, Empires and Ortofons can be used without damping.

Decca Mk.V Londons work extremely well in a damped 774, but the headblock needs drilling for these.

The 774 'sounds' different to any other arm!

Or modification for this interesting combination: a 774 with the Decca H4E.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26102&d=1558260445

walpurgis
20-05-2019, 22:55
Note the counterweight wound right out to compensate for the heavy Decca. :)

Mikeandvan
20-05-2019, 23:25
Thanks for that Geoff.

Patrick Dixon
21-05-2019, 06:22
Note the counterweight wound right out to compensate for the heavy Decca. :)
Yeah, and two bits of lead hanging on the stub between it and the bearing. I must get Jonny 7 to make me another cw.

Mikeandvan
21-05-2019, 21:10
Real sound was a concept made popular by Jeff Day over on the now defunct jeffs place blog, it can now be found here https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/welcome-to-jeffs-place/ basically its one man's journey into using various vintage hifi, alongside tinned copper and duelund components. It's a bit obsessive but I enjoy reading it. For fun, I made up a small "real sound" system, compromising of The Garrard 301, the SME 3009 tonearm (wired with original tinned copper tonearm wiring and tonearm cable), a highly modded EAR 834 clone, and some IC's and speaker cable made up from Duelund components, and a pair of Celestion Ditton 15 speaker that I rewired with Duelund cable. It's basically a very relaxed sounding system which is great fun. I don't take it seriously but it does sound pretty good and works even better after a dose of single malt!!!

A fair amount of my listening is 60s scratchy beat/rock like the Kinks/Stones, sounds like that 'real sound' concept might work for that.

nutteronthebus
22-05-2019, 06:56
there a chap on facebook called Plinthology he has a wide range of plinths for sale or he will make one for you

2611826119

REXTON
22-05-2019, 11:12
there a chap on facebook called Plinthology he has a wide range of plinths for sale or he will make one for you

2611826119
He's ok but can't commit to a production time so I looked elsewhere.

speedracer
24-05-2019, 10:18
Mike I have a 401 & have been using a Jelco SA750D with it very successfully with a AT33PTG mkii, a lovely arm to use & looks to be very well made, for the money it is excellent.
However, I have just sold the Jelco in favour of a Mission 774; I haven't tried the AT33 on it yet but I will do shortly, I am currently using an old Highphonic MC-R5 cartridge & it sounds fantastic, whereas it was a bit flat & disappointing on the Jelco which was obviously too heavy for it.

Mikeandvan
24-05-2019, 19:30
Mike I have a 401 & have been using a Jelco SA750D with it very successfully with a AT33PTG mkii, a lovely arm to use & looks to be very well made, for the money it is excellent.
However, I have just sold the Jelco in favour of a Mission 774; I haven't tried the AT33 on it yet but I will do shortly, I am currently using an old Highphonic MC-R5 cartridge & it sounds fantastic, whereas it was a bit flat & disappointing on the Jelco which was obviously too heavy for it.

Aah, well let me know how it sounds with the the AT33 then, to make a comparison, I'd like to try both arms, was thinking of putting a 774 on the 401 with a classic cart like a SHure to play rock n roll/60s beat/pink type stuff, and keeping the Jelco/Notts analogue for more hifi listening. I may be mistaken on the characteristics though.

Mikeandvan
28-05-2019, 12:21
So a member of this forum kindly gave an SME plinth, lead lined. I'm now getting around to fixing my arm on it, need a bit of help though!! Any tips on making a new hole for my tonearm, as this plinth seems to be set up for 12" sme arms. Jelco 750D is 229 mm. Does it matter where the tonearm is situated as long as its 229mm away from spindle? I mean slightly above the right hand corner of the motor unit rather than directly opposite the right hand corner as is the norm I understand. This is just to give me a taste of the 401 until I get a better and smaller plinth made!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46987059215_c3447d53fb.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2eA5XGB)IMG_20190521_202423149_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2eA5XGB) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47113759734_600f25355c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2eMhkmj)IMG_20190521_202441700_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2eMhkmj) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47113759354_4deed89b5b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2eMhkeL)IMG_20190521_202504425_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2eMhkeL) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr

WESTLOWER
28-05-2019, 12:27
just seen this...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-plinth/264339163099?hash=item3d8bd787db:g:2K4AAOSw7eFc692 o

Mikeandvan
28-05-2019, 12:54
just seen this...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-plinth/264339163099?hash=item3d8bd787db:g:2K4AAOSw7eFc692 o

Thanks think I'll just start afresh and get one made when I've got a few £ss spare. Meanwhile I can use your old one for starters!

Mikeandvan
31-05-2019, 21:23
Well, any advice on the above greatly appreciated. Apart form that just scored a Project speed-box seII off the bay, was gonna try it on my Notts analogue deck, will it make much difference? Someone also said an external power supply is a worthwhile upgrade for the 401, but how does it work with speed change? Do you do it via the speedbox or Garrard, I'm guessing the Garrard, or may'be either!

DiveDeepDog
31-05-2019, 22:10
It won't work on the Garrard, they'll suck juice till it stops working. Rough guess but they need 20x the power delivery of the small AC motors used in lots of belt drive decks.

There's a DIY option on Lenco Heaven, the LDA one and the Classic Turntable version.

They alter the speed by varying the frequency, 50hz for 33, 60hz for 45, fine tuning for accurate speed. There are versions that also drop voltage to reduce vibration, but that also affects drive and PRAT.

Mikeandvan
31-05-2019, 22:25
It won't work on the Garrard, they'll suck juice till it stops working. Rough guess but they need 20x the power delivery of the small AC motors used in lots of belt drive decks.

There's a DIY option on Lenco Heaven, the LDA one and the Classic Turntable version.

They alter the speed by varying the frequency, 50hz for 33, 60hz for 45, fine tuning for accurate speed. There are versions that also drop voltage to reduce vibration, but that also affects drive and PRAT.

Of course, that makes perfect sense! May'be have to use the 401 standard then.

DiveDeepDog
31-05-2019, 22:43
The old trick with the Garrard's was to put a lightbulb in series on the power cable. It drops the voltage and does change the character of the deck. You need the old fashioned filament bulbs though.

graham67
31-05-2019, 22:47
Hi mike,
Most of the Garrard spec PSUs output a standard 230v so you adjust the speed and brake on the 401 as normal. However once you find the correct brake setting, you shouldn't need to.adjust during or between sessions once bearing is upto speed.
You may need to adjust the speed screw under the platter to a quicker setting as dropping to 230v means you need to increase the speed dial on the front panel. I increased the speed screw to max so it runs correct with brake dial virtually at 12 o'clock.
This is using the long dog audio quartz power regenerator which is the best of 4 I have owned ��
.

Mikeandvan
01-06-2019, 08:29
Hi mike,
Most of the Garrard spec PSUs output a standard 230v so you adjust the speed and brake on the 401 as normal. However once you find the correct brake setting, you shouldn't need to.adjust during or between sessions once bearing is upto speed.
You may need to adjust the speed screw under the platter to a quicker setting as dropping to 230v means you need to increase the speed dial on the front panel. I increased the speed screw to max so it runs correct with brake dial virtually at 12 o'clock.
This is using the long dog audio quartz power regenerator which is the best of 4 I have owned ��
.

CHeers, be a while till I can afford the LDA, just have to stick with standard Garrard, or as Mark above said, stick a light bulb in the power cable!

REXTON
01-06-2019, 08:36
I've been down the Garrard PSU route. My solution was quite expensive and can be easily bettered. Seek out a Phoenix Engineering Eagle PSU and Tachometer Engineering, they are no- longer produced but do come up on eBay. You will have speed stability within 0.001 RPM. No need to bugger about with the Eddy break. My power regenerator solution was to use the PS Audio P10, all my components in my system have fully regenerated power, I could never understand why you would only have one custom made PSU for the deck and none for the other components. Correct voltage is supposed to improve speed stability and reduce vibrational interference. I messed around for months with a Nigel's Speed Controller (which I still own) on a Lenco and can "suggest" that correct voltage seems to impact speed stabilit although I can't comment on vibrational impact, these are subjects that you can forgot if you can find the Phoenix Engineering Eagle PSU and Tachometer. Don't spend stupid money on a external PSU for the Garrard, it might be worthwhile commissioning Alan (Fire Bottle) to make you a Nigels Speed Controller, you can then control speed and voltage to your hearts contents and probably have a few hundred quid left over. You then have the problem of the Tachometer, but that's another post!!!

Mikeandvan
01-06-2019, 09:27
I've been down the Garrard PSU route. My solution was quite expensive and can be easily bettered. Seek out a Phoenix Engineering Eagle PSU and Tachometer Engineering, they are no- longer produced but do come up on eBay. You will have speed stability within 0.001 RPM. No need to bugger about with the Eddy break. My power regenerator solution was to use the PS Audio P10, all my components in my system have fully regenerated power, I could never understand why you would only have one custom made PSU for the deck and none for the other components. Correct voltage is supposed to improve speed stability and reduce vibrational interference. I messed around for months with a Nigel's Speed Controller (which I still own) on a Lenco and can "suggest" that correct voltage seems to impact speed stabilit although I can't comment on vibrational impact, these are subjects that you can forgot if you can find the Phoenix Engineering Eagle PSU and Tachometer. Don't spend stupid money on a external PSU for the Garrard, it might be worthwhile commissioning Alan (Fire Bottle) to make you a Nigels Speed Controller, you can then control speed and voltage to your hearts contents and probably have a few hundred quid left over. You then have the problem of the Tachometer, but that's another post!!!

So a TT power supply is no different from a mains conditioner? The speed box has a tachometer btw, by that you mean led readout of speed?

REXTON
01-06-2019, 09:54
So a TT power supply is no different from a mains conditioner? The speed box has a tachometer btw, by that you mean led readout of speed?

A TT power supply is just that it supplied power to the TT, some TT power supplies also have mains filtration in built or rarely the power to regenerate the incoming power supply. A mains conditioner is a unit which sits between the incoming power from your house plugs and the hifi units that you own. It does what it says on the can, it filters and conditions the incoming power from the national grid into a cleaner power supply which supposedly improves your hifi sonics. There is a difference between mains conditioners and regenerators. I use a regenerator (the PS Audio P10) to good effect. Some claim mains conditioners suck out the life in music, so be careful. The speed box will not work on the Garrard it dosen't have enough voltage for the Garrard motor.

REXTON
01-06-2019, 10:14
Here's an interesting product I just found.

https://www.hanzehifi.nl/wat-we-doen/versterkers/hat-audio-team/cps-2-english/

Might explain things a little more.

Mikeandvan
01-06-2019, 10:21
A TT power supply is just that it supplied power to the TT, some TT power supplies also have mains filtration in built or rarely the power to regenerate the incoming power supply. A mains conditioner is a unit which sits between the incoming power from your house plugs and the hifi units that you own. It does what it says on the can, it filters and conditions the incoming power from the national grid into a cleaner power supply which supposedly improves your hifi sonics. There is a difference between mains conditioners and regenerators. I use a regenerator (the PS Audio P10) to good effect. Some claim mains conditioners suck out the life in music, so be careful. The speed box will not work on the Garrard it dosen't have enough voltage for the Garrard motor.
Ok thanks, so I need to look for a regenerator, the Speedbox I can use on my Notts analogue TT, see if it makes a difference. So what does a dedicated TT power supply do that is different from just using a wall socket?

REXTON
01-06-2019, 10:47
Ok thanks, so I need to look for a regenerator, the Speedbox I can use on my Notts analogue TT, see if it makes a difference. So what does a dedicated TT power supply do that is different from just using a wall socket?

Mike, I think you need to maybe have a look at the PS Audio and Isotek websites. You will find lots of advice, downloads, articles etc which should answer all your questions. But I'll answer your last question. Incoming wall socket power supply is basically full of crap. Power supply instability will generate (albeit minor) fluctuations in the spinning speed of your 401's idler wheel and therefore platter. You will notice pitch instability, piano music being a good example. A decent clean, stable power supply enables your 401's idler wheel to spin with less fluctuations and hopefully improved pitch stability. Hope this helps!

Marra
01-06-2019, 11:25
Have a read on Lenco Heaven about Nigel's Speed Controller. I built one and it made a very worthwhile improvement to my replinthed L75 and works well with Garrards apparently although I believe it stops the strobe light from working.

Spectral Morn
01-06-2019, 11:29
just seen this...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-401-plinth/264339163099?hash=item3d8bd787db:g:2K4AAOSw7eFc692 o

No posting to NI why? NI is part of the UK :steam:

I have asked why.

Mikeandvan
01-06-2019, 18:33
Have a read on Lenco Heaven about Nigel's Speed Controller. I built one and it made a very worthwhile improvement to my replinthed L75 and works well with Garrards apparently although I believe it stops the strobe light from working.

No lighty no likey.

Shovel_Knight
01-06-2019, 21:16
Well, the strobe still lights up, it just doesn't operate at the correct frequency.

But this problem can be solved as well... For a price... :D

https://keystrobe.co.uk/product-category/turntable-upgrade-kits/

Mikeandvan
02-06-2019, 09:15
Well, the strobe still lights up, it just doesn't operate at the correct frequency.

But this problem can be solved as well... For a price... :D

https://keystrobe.co.uk/product-category/turntable-upgrade-kits/

Wow, may'be best just not start messing around with these things in the first place?

Mikeandvan
02-06-2019, 09:18
Mike, I think you need to maybe have a look at the PS Audio and Isotek websites. You will find lots of advice, downloads, articles etc which should answer all your questions. But I'll answer your last question. Incoming wall socket power supply is basically full of crap. Power supply instability will generate (albeit minor) fluctuations in the spinning speed of your 401's idler wheel and therefore platter. You will notice pitch instability, piano music being a good example. A decent clean, stable power supply enables your 401's idler wheel to spin with less fluctuations and hopefully improved pitch stability. Hope this helps!

Thanks Andrew, yeh sort of helps, so a TT power supply is just a mains conditioner? Like you say just buy a mains conditioner or regenerator for the whole system. I always thought that what TT power supplies did was specific to turntables, but it seems not. Think I'll keep an eye out for a mains regenerator then, just missed one on here that was the same price as the Pro-ject speedbox I just bought!

Patrick Dixon
02-06-2019, 09:48
No lighty no likey.

It doesn't stop the strobe light from working, but the strobe markings are calibrated for a 50Hz supply (UK) and if you adjust the speed from the controller then you change the frequency of the supply to the 401. There is nothing to stop you from setting the controller output to 50Hz and selecting speed as normal on the 401 if you want.

Patrick Dixon
02-06-2019, 09:53
I always thought that what TT power supplies did was specific to turntables, but it seems not.

No, it is. For a mains voltage motor like on a 401, it is essentially a mains regenerator, but it also allows you to make small frequency adjustments to trim the speed, and larger frequency changes to change speed electronically rather than mechanically on the deck. In addition it's generally 'sized' to drive a turntable rather than, say, a power amplifier.

A TT supply for a DC motor (eg LP12 etc) is a completely different thing.

REXTON
02-06-2019, 10:39
Thanks Andrew.

No problems, glad to help. It's a big learning curve, the more you read the more you can get confused. :lol: Just keep asking away and people on here usually have an answer for you.

mbic
02-06-2019, 11:03
Around£ 400

Mikeandvan
02-06-2019, 11:08
OK one last question! So, plugging your TT into a mains regenerator - for multiple use, so you plug your amps and stuff in there as well, this is the same as plugging your TT into a dedicated TT power supply?

struth
02-06-2019, 11:27
mains regen will give you a constant voltage and a constant hz cycle. both help tt's if the use the mains cycle to keep time. Ac motors. most are 230v 50hz and are handy , but if your mains is good then you probably wont notice any difference.
Excellent for pcs as they have a battery fall back and your work hopefully can be saved before it runs out, and mains can be switched on again. Also great for Chinese stuff that uses 220v stuff, as its only 10v up, so wont damage them.

REXTON
02-06-2019, 16:57
OK one last question! So, plugging your TT into a mains regenerator - for multiple use, so you plug your amps and stuff in there as well, this is the same as plugging your TT into a dedicated TT power supply?

You can plug your WHOLE system into one of them. Your TT gets it dedicated power supply from its motor which is supplied via the electricity into your house via the National Grid, this can then be conditioned or regenerated via an appropriate piece of equipment.

Mikeandvan
02-06-2019, 20:00
You can plug your WHOLE system into one of them. Your TT gets it dedicated power supply from its motor which is supplied via the electricity into your house via the National Grid, this can then be conditioned or regenerated via an appropriate piece of equipment.

Yes I realise you can plug your whole system into a regenerator, TT included. So doesn't make TT power supplies entirely redundant?

REXTON
02-06-2019, 20:16
So doesn't make TT power supplies entirely redundant?

No it's not redundant it's still very much needed. You theoretically get even more performance by putting the extrinsic TT PSU into the regenerator and it's the purified power supply to the extrinsic TT PSU that's supposed to give improved performance.

graham67
02-06-2019, 20:33
edited to avoid possible confusion.

I ran my 401 off a power inspired 1500ag regenerator for years and the LDA quartz generator is better. Presentation is more open and less busy while losing none of the pace. For sure, the 1500ag provides 80% of the improvement and solves the constant speed drift which is a real weakness of the early 401 motor on 21st century mains.
But in a resolving system, the LDA is noticeably better. Compared to the 1500ag intended for more general office equipment usage, the design of the LDA is optimised for the 401 so it is perhaps not a surprise it does the job very well.
I cheat a bit and run.my low consumption ss phono stage amp from the LDA too as it confers a benefit. But that's about it, it is not as flexible as the power inspired.
However I would advise against running your amp or power amp from a mains regenerator (unless it has serious muscle). Every time I have tried it sounds flat and robbed of energy. Maybe on yawnsville audiophile music such as Patricia barber it will sound a bit cleaner but up the tempo and you will wonder where the pace has gone.

Btw, I wouldnt assume it was OK to run a TT generator from another generator. It is also very wasteful of power!

REXTON
02-06-2019, 20:38
I cheat a bit and run.my low consumption ss phono stage amp from the LDA too as it confers a benefit. But that's about it, it is not as flexible as the power inspired.
However I would advise against running your amp or power amp from a mains regenerator (unless it has serious muscle). Every time I have tried it sounds flat and robbed of energy. Maybe on yawnsville audiophile music such as Patricia barber it will sound a bit cleaner but up the tempo and you will wonder where the pace has gone.

No! Simply not true, have you tried a PS10?

Mikeandvan
02-06-2019, 20:47
Emm, interesting. May'be the thing with power conditioners/regenerators is that some peoples mains are better than others? So some will say amazing, love it!, others are like, waste of money mate.

Spectral Morn
03-06-2019, 11:13
No posting to NI why? NI is part of the UK :steam:

I have asked why.

I spoke with this seller on Ebay, the convo didn't bode well. So they ballsed up at some point in the past regarding under charging re postage to NI. I have done that on here and took the hit, annoying but something you can avoid by not assuming the cost, but going and getting a proper quote. I told them no problem, quote me whatever it will cost and if I think it ok, happy to pay. They seem to lack comprehension regarding my being happy to pay whatever the postage might cost. Not expect them to foot any extra. Anyway no reply to my last message, so I am blocked from bidding. Very irritating but there you go.

anthonyTD
03-06-2019, 11:37
Mine's in a concrete plinth!
Its painted piano gloss black, so you can't really tell what it is.
However, i wouldnt recomend anyone else going down this route, unless you fully understand the implications, ie; the weight, and ease of being able to move it when needed!
What ever you decide to go with, i wish you well with it, the 401 has the potential to be a great turntable when done right. :)
A...

Mikeandvan
26-09-2019, 21:07
The 401 sits under my coffee table for monthssss now, just got a Target TT1 turntable shelf off ebay after bidding on them for months, minty and only £60 with post, wooden shelf measures 355x465mm, is that generally big enough for a 401 plinth? Suppose could always put a slightly larger isolation board on top of the wooden shelf? Now what do I do to get a plinth? Wanna try one with my Jelco 750 arm first to make a good comparison with my NAS TT then want the ability to change arm board cos I will probably want to try another arm as well, not sure which yet, was thinking 774, but then heard somewhere they can be a bit hard sounding, the last thing I need.

anubisgrau
26-09-2019, 22:44
What are the available options for 401 plinth made of exotic African wood - panzerholz, wenge or similar? Solid boards, not laminate.

montesquieu
26-09-2019, 23:47
Panzerholz - literally 'tank-wood' (it is bullet proof) is actually resin-impregnated plywood that has been tightly compressed to be very very dense, far more dense than any solid wood you can purchase.

I'm about to take delivery of a panzerholz plinth for my TD124 from Russ Collinson, wrapped in solid wood as are the Artisan Fidelity plinths, with panzerholz armboads. Shoud be interesting.

My 401 plinth is CNC'd ply, finished and painted, I think it looks fine and doesn't particularly hold the deck back. I had a layered solid cherry plinth for a previous 401 and enjoyed that equally.

anubisgrau
27-09-2019, 12:31
not the best pics but my new babe

https://www.hi-files.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2019_07/IMG_20190730_53922.thumb.jpg.e913f0baded6e74e1b751 059604d6132.jpg

https://www.hi-files.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2019_07/IMG_20190730_5966.thumb.jpg.c3c094357da6c9e6791bbd 6975a1faf4.jpg

https://www.hi-files.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2019_07/IMG_20190730_9557.thumb.jpg.b2f1937dda710930faa60a 81ede79a96.jpg

https://www.hi-files.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2019_08/IMG_20190817_2316.thumb.jpg.4a56a5ab6f38909c2ca8d4 67d934166f.jpg

not yet with me but as soon as i sort out a shelf for a 30kg beast it will be

made locally here by ferenc lazar from solid wenge boards plus sandwich boards for critical parts, including balls decoupling :eyebrows:

anubisgrau
27-09-2019, 12:36
it's big but can't be smaller if you want to properly engineer decoupling of boards for motor and for 12" arm.

https://www.hi-files.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2019_07/IMG_20190730_51861.thumb.jpg.fb4ee7b21146159ca9be9 cd5c1a542e4.jpg

struth
27-09-2019, 12:42
looks very good... nice colour

montesquieu
27-09-2019, 12:42
Looks like a lovely job Gordan. You planning to do anything with power supplies/variacs/ fancy bearings etc?

Out of curiosity I recently picked up an SPH grease bearing on the Lenco forum, curious to see the impact of that when it arrives.

Mine says hi:

https://i.imgur.com/snnsqoZ.jpg

Arm is an AT-1503 Mk1 and the cartridge a Tonar Diabolic modded and fitted in an ebony body. The combo sounds excellent.

Ali Tait
27-09-2019, 12:44
I’ve used a 774 with my 401 and it sounded superb, a real bargain arm if you get one in good fettle imo.

anubisgrau
27-09-2019, 13:23
thanks, i haven't looked yet at the bearings/etc.... this sounds as good as it gets now that the plinth is ultimate, i fear the differences with elsewhere mods will be cosmetic

PSU is a different story, it's planned long time ago but i have no time.... one day