Transistors vs valves

[bumpy]

In people's opinion what transistor amp comes closest to sounding like a single ended triode amp. Output watts can be considered irrelevant.

[struth]

Maybe a first watt amp.

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

I think you'd be looking at something pure Class A, such a Sugden Masterclass, Luxman L-590A II, or if you want to go vintage, a Monarchy Audio SM70.

Marco

[Bigman80]

You want a Krell.

[Marco]

Yes, but a vintage one. The current stuff isn't a patch on what was produced 'back in the day', such as Macca's. His is 'propa'.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Yes, but a vintage one. The current stuff isn't a patch on what was produced 'back in the day', such as Macca's. His is 'propa'.

Marco.Yes, or mine!

I thought everyone knew that vintage was the way to go [emoji4]

[Ali Tait]

Pass labs, F5 or similar. Or, if you can afford them, Nick's Longdog Audio P6 monos, best SS I've ever heard.

[Marco]

Yes, or mine!

I thought everyone knew that vintage was the way to go [emoji4]

Forgot you had one, and yours works too, lol;)

Marco.

[Barry]

Obviously, a single-ended class A transistor amplifier.

[walpurgis]

I'll probably get some indignant responses, but my seventeen quid Chinese TPA3116 amp offers the same type of sound quality as the Monarchy Audio SM-70. The sound is very, very, similar! It also has about the same power and grip.

[Ninanina]

The 'closest' I've heard a transister amp sound to a valve amp was probably the Sugden A21 or, as Geoff mentioned, the Topping T amp I owned a long time ago...

I've owned loads of both transister and valve amps and I like both... they both bring 'something' to the table if that makes sense. If you asked me to pick I'd probably say a nice SET valve amp but only in certain conditions...

[southall-1998_mk2]

Sugden amps sound nothing like valves. They're just clean!

S.

[Ninanina]

Just my own experience Shane...

[Barry]

I used to use a Sugden A21 'clone' and it was very good, if a bit under-powered.

[Shovel_Knight]

Probably this one: http://www.pmillett.com/NuClassD.html

This is a Class-D amp with Korg NuTube in the buffer stage (and NuTube is basically a very low voltage direct heated triode :D)

(Haven't heard it personally, but seen some positive feedback)

[Bigman80]

Probably this one: http://www.pmillett.com/NuClassD.html

This is a Class-D amp with Korg NuTube in the buffer stage (and NuTube is basically a very low voltage direct heated triode :D)

(Haven't heard it personally, but seen some positive feedback)Why would anyone buy an amplifier that deliberately distorts?

" I should dial in a little more 2nd harmonic distortion.*That is easy to do by changing the bias point or the plate load resistor of the Nutube"

[Barry]

Why would anyone buy an amplifier that deliberately distorts?

" I should dial in a little more 2nd harmonic distortion.*That is easy to do by changing the bias point or the plate load resistor of the Nutube"

Because it can sound 'nice'! :lol:

The specification of the Nu Tube hybrid is nothing to write home about.

[Bigman80]

Because it can sound 'nice'! [emoji38]

The specification of the Nu Tube hybrid is nothing to write home about.Its definitely not on my radar lol

[Shovel_Knight]

Why would anyone buy an amplifier that deliberately distorts?

" I should dial in a little more 2nd harmonic distortion.*That is easy to do by changing the bias point or the plate load resistor of the Nutube"

Well, I wouldn't but apparently it suits some people's tastes.

(I wouldn't buy a "proper" valve amp either because my wife is scared stiff of electricity and glowing valves would most likely give her fits.)

[Pigmy Pony]

Because it can sound 'nice'! :lol:

The specification of the Nu Tube hybrid is nothing to write home about.

Goes back to the old argument: Do you want the last word in accuracy (whatever that is) or something that sounds good to you? I'm sure we all know what sound we like when we hear it and that sound may be found with s/s for some, valves for others.

Just curious - why, in a world that already contains valve amps, would someone want an s/s that sounds like a valve amp? Is it reliability? Or cost? Not trying to be a smartarse, I'm still learning about this stuff :)

[Shovel_Knight]

Reliability (although class A solid state amps are also known to have a lot of issues related to their thermals), costs (initial investment, regular valve replacement, electricity bills...), some people are just afraid because valve circuitry requires very high voltages, the valves are also a safety hazard if you have little children / pets etc.

[walpurgis]

Amplifiers that have a 'solid-state sound' or a 'valve sound' do so because there's something wrong with them. A properly designed amp of either sort should impart no character of its own to the sound.

[Barry]

Amplifiers that have a 'solid-state sound' or a 'valve sound' do so because there's something wrong with them. A properly designed amp of either sort should impart no character of its own to the sound.

Agreed.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Amplifiers that have a 'solid-state sound' or a 'valve sound' do so because there's something wrong with them. A properly designed amp of either sort should impart no character of its own to the sound.

Hi Geoff
I think you need to affirm which type of amplifier you refer to, rather than referring to each as valve sound or solid state sound, as there are fundamental differences in how loudspeakers then
attached will perform if the amplifier is valve or if its solid state. http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps_7.html

The last part of your post though, is quite correct "each type should impart no character to the sound" But that's a big "should" , as listening to each type
invariably finds there are indeed differences.

[walpurgis]

Perhaps I should re-state my first line as 'Amplifiers that are percieved to have a 'solid state sound' or 'valve sound' do so because there's something wrong with them'.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Perhaps I should re-state my first line as 'Amplifiers that are percieved to have a 'solid state sound' or 'valve sound' do so because there's something wrong with them'.

That's much better, neither type should impart any character of its own, rather should just accurately amplify. Sadly that does not quite happen, but we remain in hope.

[Ninanina]

These days I don't really care if an amp is ss or valve as long as it sounds good to me... I reckon that's all that matters...

I guess I've gone full circle with amps... I used SET's of about 8w for years but now have a SS giving maybe 200w... and I love them both as long as they are used within their correct environment

[bumpy]

Amplifiers that have a 'solid-state sound' or a 'valve sound' do so because there's something wrong with them. A properly designed amp of either sort should impart no character of its own to the sound.

I'm not sure I can go along with this theory.

Are you saying that if money or expertise was NO object and you built the best valve and solid state amps that have ever been built on this planet then they would sound identical?

[Bigman80]

I'm not sure I can go along with this theory.

Are you saying that if money or expertise was NO object and you built the best valve and solid state amps that have ever been built on this planet then they would sound identical?No, what Geoff is saying is that IF you were to build the best amplifiers you could, they wouldn't/shouldn't sound like a valve or a SS amplifier. Those sound types are characteristics of an amp. The better an amp is, the less of those stereotypical characteristics exists.

[Pepperamip]

How about the old marantz receivers 2215 2225 2245 (other 4 number variations available upon request) They had a valve type sound to them and still look good imo.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

How about the old marantz receivers 2215 2225 2245 (other 4 number variations available upon request) They had a valve type sound to them and still look good imo

It is impossible for a solid state device to have a 'valve sound' as it employs no valves.

Actually, I'd love to see somebody try to define 'valve sound'. It doesn't exist!

Variations in the presentation from different amplifier types are due to deviations from perfect reproduction. As nothing is perfect, amplifiers will vary.

[Pepperamip]

I don't think it is impossible at all.

There are without doubt ss amps that sound more like valve amps than others. They are achieving the same goal regardless of the method employed.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I'm not sure I can go along with this theory.

Are you saying that if money or expertise was NO object and you built the best valve and solid state amps that have ever been built on this planet then they would sound identical?

There is no getting around the physics involved with each type, Where valve amps come undone is driving low impedance loads, but on the other hand excel
where high impedance speaker loads are used. Solid state is the exact opposite. The proper answer is to current drive amplifiers so they are aware of the speaker load and in theory any
speaker can be driven as it is always being assessed by the amplifier. The traditional voltage amplifier only has control over the speaker lead it is driving, which is known as a Zobel network.
It is basically clue-less as to the actual speaker being used, but does its best to answer this by providing a reliable and some would say very reliable supply of voltage.

So the majority of amplifiers act as a voltage source amplifying a small input voltage to be a much larger output voltage. If we instead current drive amplifiers they can sense
the loudspeaker load, and in the process provide lower distortion audio

The concept of current drive is partially explained here http://jerryrutten.nl/why-current-drive/
and discussed with more detail here: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/250272-current-drive-loudspeakers.html

[bumpy]

No, what Geoff is saying is that IF you were to build the best amplifiers you could, they wouldn't/shouldn't sound like a valve or a SS amplifier. Those sound types are characteristics of an amp. The better an amp is, the less of those stereotypical characteristics exists.

Surely that's just another way of saying they will sound the same. :scratch:

[bumpy]

There is no getting around the physics involved with each type, Where valve amps come undone is driving low impedance loads, but on the other hand excel
where high impedance speaker loads are used. Solid state is the exact opposite. The proper answer is to current drive amplifiers so they are aware of the speaker load and in theory any
speaker can be driven as it is always being assessed by the amplifier. The traditional voltage amplifier only has control over the speaker lead it is driving, which is known as a Zobel network.
It is basically clue-less as to the actual speaker being used, but does its best to answer this by providing a reliable and some would say very reliable supply of voltage.

So the majority of amplifiers act as a voltage source amplifying a small input voltage to be a much larger output voltage. If we instead current drive amplifiers they can sense
the loudspeaker load, and in the process provide lower distortion audio

The concept of current drive is partially explained here http://jerryrutten.nl/why-current-drive/
and discussed with more detail here: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/250272-current-drive-loudspeakers.html

I like this sort of info and will read it later. Thanks

[chris@panteg]

Last year I went from a solid state system back to an all valve system, though PP not single ended but the point I would make is it doesn't have what I would call a valve type of sound, just very open clean and strong with excellent bass performance, not warm and cosy.

From what I can remember the Musical Fidelity A1 had a very obviously valvey type of sound if that's what you like, very warm and slightly rolled off, it's not for me though.

[hifinutt]

Amplifiers that have a 'solid-state sound' or a 'valve sound' do so because there's something wrong with them. A properly designed amp of either sort should impart no character of its own to the sound.

ha , very rare i disagree with you geoff but why bother trying different amps then ? i have 2 integrated here which both have their own sound . i like the character of one of them, it gives texture , musicality and is engaging . another class A amp arriving today to play with and be interesting to see what it sounds like

the nearest amps i have to be completely neutral are the schitt freya pre with the firebottle hybrid monoblocks which are extremely neutral

[Bigman80]

Surely that's just another way of saying they will sound the same. :scratch:No two amplifiers sound the same. Obviously my point has been missed.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

No two amplifiers sound the same. Obviously my point has been missed.

I think that needs amended or allowed wording as to permit, ... An amplifier built from the same schematic and parts as another.
As example 2 x Quad 306's will sound pretty well identical. As example I have two of these and can attest they sound the same.

So amended as No two different Brands/ models of amplifier sound the same, suggests as slightly wiser wording.

[Bigman80]

I think that needs amended or allowed wording as to permit, ... An amplifier built from the same schematic and parts as another.
As example 2 x Quad 306's will sound pretty well identical. As example I have two of these and can attest they sound the same.

So amended as No two different Brands/ models of amplifier sound the same, suggests as slightly wiser wording.What I find sometimes on forums is that people only read what the want to read. To any man and his dog, sticking two amplifiers of exactly the same spec together, should show that the sound is the exactly the same.

That's called quality control.

Any company throwing out identical amplifiers, that sound different to the exact same model next to it, is going to be in trouble. Hence my utter reluctance to chase a fabled "when you get a good one....." Decca cartridge etc.

My point was, when amplifiers get to a certain point in quality, it's almost impossible to say whether it's a valve amp or a SS amp. That's been my experience, and that's what I was trying to express but as I said, either it wasn't read that way or the point didn't convey.

If you HAVEN'T heard that first hand, you need to get out and have a listen to some amplifiers.

I still haven't looked up the spec of Nick Gorham's MFA Monoblocks. I don't know what the build is and I couldn't tell from listening to them. Anthony TD does amplifiers that reportedly do the same, as does my Krell.

The characteristics of valves or SS are what they are, when you get to that level of build quality, you wouldn't be able to tell from listening.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

What I find sometimes on forums is that people only read what the want to read. To any man and his dog, sticking two amplifiers of exactly the same spec together, should show that the sound is the exactly the same.

That's called quality control.

Any company throwing out identical amplifiers, that sound different to the exact same model next to it, is going to be in trouble. Hence my utter reluctance to chase a fabled "when you get a good one....." Decca cartridge etc.

My point was, when amplifiers get to a certain point in quality, it's almost impossible to say whether it's a valve amp or a SS amp. That's been my experience, and that's what I was trying to express but as I said, either it wasn't read that way or the point didn't convey.

If you HAVEN'T heard that first hand, you need to get out and have a listen to some amplifiers.

I still haven't looked up the spec of Nick Gorham's MFA Monoblocks. I don't know what the build is and I couldn't tell from listening to them. Anthony TD does amplifiers that reportedly do the same, as does my Krell.

The characteristics of valves or SS are what they are, when you get to that level of build quality, you wouldn't be able to tell from listening.

With a better attenuator the differences may become apparent:)

[Bigman80]

With a better attenuator the differences may become apparent:)Lol, I'm glad you stick a smiley on the end of that

[Beobloke]

In people's opinion what transistor amp comes closest to sounding like a single ended triode amp. Output watts can be considered irrelevant.

A broken one...

;) :D

[Pharos]

By definition, if amplifiers are perfect, regardless of the technologies used, they will sound the same.
But of course nothing is perfect, and each has its own idiosyncrasies, as do digital amps.

AFAICS valve amps get little better than 0.1% disortion at best, and have highish output impedances, but SS amps are considerqbly better, and there is one supreme example, the Benchmark which is from memory 0.00001%, and has a low O/P Z.

It is probably true that the best examples of all are under DB tests conditions indistinguishable IMO

[Macca]

A broken one...

;) :D

LOL

There's no 'valve' sound as valve amps can sound very different from each other, always makes me laugh when I see people asking 'should I move to valves' as though it was a sensible question. A good amplifier is a good amplifier regardless of what amplifying devices it uses, as Ollie says, once it is good enough then you won't be able to tell, or care, if it is valve or solid state.

But the question was specifically about single ended triode amps - I don't think there are any commercially available solid state amps that will mimic a SET amp, if there are they have passed me by. But it should be possible to make one, only a question of copying the distortion characteristics.

I had an amp designer come to my house once, I had some music on. He asked me what the amp was; he'd never heard of the make. Then he asks what valves it used. Told him it was solid state so he raised an eyebrow. 'Must be Class A then?' - Nope, guess again.

As usual with hi-fi most of it is fantasy, preconceived notions and wishful thinking.

[struth]

An amp can pretty much be what the maker deems it to be, either through design or on occasion incompetence .. Not sure i would go down the road of they will all sound the same if made properly, but it can be the case. Much depends on the design.
I might add a good amp doesn't NEED to be expensive, just well made, and used in the right system

[anthonyTD]

:eek:
A broken one...

;) :D

[Gazjam]

I think the lesser examples of each amp type have given rise to the stereotypes over the years, that and bad word of mouth and ill-informed opinion.
Both can sound great and just like music, not necessarily this type of sound or that.

Me?
I like hybrid amps:
SET power amp with solid state regulation, and a solid state pre with a valve input stage.

Best of both!

[Barry]

LOL

There's no 'valve' sound as valve amps can sound very different from each other, always makes me laugh when I see people asking 'should I move to valves' as though it was a sensible question. A good amplifier is a good amplifier regardless of what amplifying devices it uses, as Ollie says, once it is good enough then you won't be able to tell, or care, if it is valve or solid state.

But the question was specifically about single ended triode amps - I don't think there are any commercially available solid state amps that will mimic a SET amp, if there are they have passed me by. But it should be possible to make one, only a question of copying the distortion characteristics.

I had an amp designer come to my house once, I had some music on. He asked me what the amp was; he'd never heard of the make. Then he asks what valves it used. Told him it was solid state so he raised an eyebrow. 'Must be Class A then?' - Nope, guess again.

As usual with hi-fi most of it is fantasy, preconceived notions and wishful thinking.

Didn't Colin Wonfor (of this parish) sell SECA (Single Ended Class A) solid state amps?

[struth]

Didn't Colin Wonfor (of this parish) sell SECA (Single Ended Class A) solid state amps?

certainly made kits, dunno if he sold them ready made

[Macca]

Didn't Colin Wonfor (of this parish) sell SECA (Single Ended Class A) solid state amps?

As kits yes, but is a SECA the same thing as a SET (single ended triode)? I didn't think it was.

[bumpy]

But the question was specifically about single ended triode amps - I don't think there are any commercially available solid state amps that will mimic a SET amp, if there are they have passed me by. But it should be possible to make one, only a question of copying the distortion characteristics.

Thanks for re-stating that Martin, that was indeed my question. :)

[Macca]

Which I can't answer :)

[Barry]

As kits yes, but is a SECA the same thing as a SET (single ended triode)? I didn't think it was.

Single ended is single ended. Regardless of the amplifying device, valve or solidstate, both have to operate in Class A. I thought that was what Colin's SECA design did.

[Macca]

Single ended is single ended. Regardless of the amplifying device, valve or solidstate, both have to operate in Class A. I thought that was what Colin's SECA design did.

Right, but a SET amp is class A the same as a SECA is, it's the triode bit that is different. I have no idea why. I know you can get amps that can switch between triode and pentode operation so is it to do with the way the valves are driven? This is all out of my depth.

[Barry]

As kits yes, but is a SECA the same thing as a SET (single ended triode)? I didn't think it was.

Single ended is single ended. Regardless of the amplifying device, valve or solidstate, both have to operate in Class A. I thought that was what Colin's SECA design did, but oviously the best person who can confirm this is Colin himself.

For those out there who understand audio circuitry, this is Colin's SECA design:

https://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o580/colinwonfor1/Amp%20A%20Class%20Kit%20SECA%20_zpsxitiugcj.jpg

[ABCaudio]

I've got a set of Colin's SECA here, but he now concentrates more on developing his Push/Pull stuff. IME the difference can be very small.

The SECA stuff is available ready built, if you ask him directly. It is pretty amazing, and very robustly engineered. The last version I heard was very powerful, very warm and had ludicrous damping factor! However, it's never likely to be available from the webshop as a standard product.

The great thing about SS single ended class A is the stupendous bass. ��

[Gazjam]

These days I don't really care if an amp is ss or valve as long as it sounds good to me... I reckon that's all that matters...

I guess I've gone full circle with amps... I used SET's of about 8w for years but now have a SS giving maybe 200w... and I love them both as long as they are used within their correct environment

Wot She said...

[paulf-2007]

Amplifiers that have a 'solid-state sound' or a 'valve sound' do so because there's something wrong with them. A properly designed amp of either sort should impart no character of its own to the sound.
Nail head

[Ninanina]

Wot She said...


:yay:

So maybe I don't talk utter rubbish all the time ;)

[Marco]

Sugden amps sound nothing like valves. They're just clean!


So are valves when they're done right!;)

Marco.

[Jazid]

No, what Geoff is saying is that IF you were to build the best amplifiers you could, they wouldn't/shouldn't sound like a valve or a SS amplifier. Those sound types are characteristics of an amp. The better an amp is, the less of those stereotypical characteristics exists.This[emoji106]

Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

[bumpy]

Here is my crude attempt at an analogy.

You set out to buy a cake (amplifier) the aim is to eat it to satisfy your hunger (listen to your hi fi). There are two flavours available madeira and sponge (valve and SS). They both satisfy your aim but are different flavours.

Neither of them is quite as tasty as you wish, so you ask the baker to use the best ingredients money can buy and mix the ingredients in the best way he knows.

At the end, each of the cakes is optimised, but they still taste different to each other. One customer may prefer the madeira over the sponge or vice versa, but they certainly wont taste the same now.

[Macca]

You can't beat a good cake-related analogy.


I'm still none the wiser as to how a SECA is different from a SET though. Suppose I'll have to look it up on the internet.

[bumpy]

You can't beat a good cake-related analogy.



:rfl::rfl::rfl:

[anthonyTD]

SECA; Single Ended Class A, which means a single ended output stage consisting of one or more devices, all devices in the output stage whether it be one, or more in parallel are working soley on their own to produce all of the output power, which means the device or devices in the output stage, just like a single valve, have to draw all the necessary current, all of the time to produce a required output, hence class A.

You can't beat a good cake-related analogy.


I'm still none the wiser as to how a SECA is different from a SET though. Suppose I'll have to look it up on the internet.

[Macca]

SECA; Single Ended Class A, which means a single ended output stage consisting of one or more devices, all devices in the output stage whether it be one, or more in parallel are working soley on their own to produce all of the output power, which means the device or devices in the output stage, just like a single valve, have to draw all the necessary current, all of the time to produce a required output, hence class A.

But you've only explained what class A is and I already knew that! What is the difference between SECA and SET, they are both working in class A, I get that, but are they exactly the same thing?

[struth]

think all single ended amps are working in class a

[chris@panteg]

The only solid state single ended amplifier I've heard is the Alchemist from over 20 years ago now, does anyone remember it?
I believe that Arkless had something to do with the design, from what I can remember I didn't much care for the sound it made, thought it a bit flat and uninteresting, though tonally good.

[Macca]

Okay so I looked it up, a SECA and a SET are the same except that a SET uses a triode valve whereas a SECA can use triode, tetrode or pentode valves or transistors instead of valves.

[paulf-2007]

It is impossible for a solid state device to have a 'valve sound' as it employs no valves.

Actually, I'd love to see somebody try to define 'valve sound'. It doesn't exist!

Variations in the presentation from different amplifier types are due to deviations from perfect reproduction. As nothing is perfect, amplifiers will vary.i was about to ask you what a valve sound is

[anthonyTD]

SET is just a decription most folk refer to as; Single Ended Triode!!! As you say, SECA can and does refer to any amplifying device or devices working in conventional single ended mode, which is inherently Class A...
Okay so I looked it up, a SECA and a SET are the same except that a SET uses a triode valve whereas a SECA can use triode, tetrode or pentode valves or transistors instead of valves.

[Colin Wonfor]

Just a few photos of SECA Amps

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59295155_2281840292134039_3348031825908858880_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f70fffd2a923c6536f4fbdee71bb9aa5&oe=5D650DAA

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59623974_2281840188800716_6985843467486232576_n.jp g?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=a251b109519552ac7141e1e8feb6c507&oe=5D72014B

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/58978291_2281840172134051_2744869115897315328_n.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f541e3e59f0ca8ea659784a6395edd06&oe=5D2F2DB4

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59419579_2281840198800715_2315012304829153280_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=11497d129e57cd497c3505f2c4f9ad3e&oe=5D61AAFE

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59121108_2281840228800712_8097894690369568768_n.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=138a25aa144b68596fafdfd724d8cb73&oe=5D643EE9

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59389612_2281840265467375_4845724185160318976_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=9dc9a5412f3609ea0b0f64325343ddfd&oe=5D774DE4

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59708133_2281840242134044_4582152191212519424_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=3cac3f7e2d2d64d29013fb01b3e53f3d&oe=5D6E3499

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59496717_2281844695466932_4142029377514766336_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=b0886ae962309b9c043620bc74224162&oe=5D76A0A9

Above a 1993 version of the Wonfor guy.

[Colin Wonfor]

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/57425278_2281847932133275_4959315465865265152_n.pn g?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=062fd239806ea18aac221cc16fcea215&oe=5D687DB6

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59295476_2281848015466600_1121673001893363712_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=98129ddacad5a426d516a516fae05289&oe=5D321A06

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/57099078_2281847945466607_264598177598930944_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=e831522882c3e7dd9a755132fa7efc30&oe=5D6D0184

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/58381962_2281847938799941_7671980388696195072_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=389779a7acb8da8247a6b890eaf059a2&oe=5D2FB49A

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59384719_2281847985466603_4074487310228389888_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=2fb871cf8a60068e1a6c3a7a799a34ef&oe=5D67CBBA

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/59680213_2281847978799937_7944882507604819968_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=1428b5f141cc0ff1d8871988d660e3be&oe=5D2F96D5

A few more, the reviewer all thought the bass was good.

[anthonyTD]

Great bit of history there Colin! :)
A...

[JohnJo]

Great bit of history there Colin! :)
A...

+1. Impressive stuff.