High live music sound levels - legality of.

[jandl100]

This legal ruling could have a significant impact in many live music venues.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47965734

'The Royal Opera House has lost its appeal over the life-changing hearing damage caused to a viola player at a rehearsal of Wagner's Die Walkure.

The Court of Appeal ruled unanimously that the ROH failed to take reasonable steps to protect Christopher Goldscheider during the 2012 rehearsal.'

'The bell of a trumpet was immediately behind his right ear during the rehearsal and noise levels reached 132 decibels - roughly equivalent to that of a jet engine.
His hearing was irreversibly damaged. Mr Goldscheider, from Bedfordshire, now has to wear ear defenders to carry out everyday household tasks such as preparing food.'

132dB :eek:

[Macca]

In rehearsal would you not think 'that trumpet behind me is a bit loud, I'll nip out and buy some hearing protection'?


Seems to me he did nothing himself to sort the problem even though it is an intrinsic part of his job, which no-one forced him into, and now relying on the nanny state for compensation and draconian action.


And how can you make a trumpet quieter? Tell them not to blow so hard? How is that going to work in the context of an orchestra?

[Primalsea]

If you look at HSE in other sectors the employers have to supply appropriate PPE and ensure that employees are aware of safety issues and stop work and mitigate any potential issues. So it would seem that the ROH were responsible in part. But yes, I do agree that individuals should use some common sense and the individual concerned could have easily just asked to be moved away.

[Macca]

The whole health and safety thing is upside down IMO

Employers pay attention to it because they don't want to get sued, not because they give a toss if Jimmy in the warehouse gets hit by a forklift. Plenty more Jimmys where he came from. So it is a box-ticking exercise, not a safety exercise. As long as the boxes are ticked then they can demonstrate it is Jimmy's own stupid fault he got hit and they don't have to pay out.


Secondly they assume that people are idiots and so drag everything down to the lowest common denominator. So you have these training videos - don't climb wobbly ladders, don't leave boxes in the aisle for people to trip over and so on. If you don't already have a grasp of that you are too stupid to leave the house, let alone have a job. And if you do leave a box in the aisle and someone trips on it then it's their own stupid fault for walking around in a dream world instead of watching where they put their feet.


I've sat and watched the idiot video along with my colleagues on many occasions and then later in the same day I guarantee there will be a trip hazard which I will then pretend to fall over. So what did that achieve in practical terms? Nothing but a box ticked and as the law stands you can still sue the company even if they did show you the video. There's no application of common sense. Box ticking has replaced common sense.

[Pigmy Pony]

The whole health and safety thing is upside down IMO

Employers pay attention to it because they don't want to get sued, not because they give a toss if Jimmy in the warehouse gets hit by a forklift. Plenty more Jimmys where he came from. So it is a box-ticking exercise, not a safety exercise. As long as the boxes are ticked then they can demonstrate it is Jimmy's own stupid fault he got hit and they don't have to pay out.


Secondly they assume that people are idiots and so drag everything down to the lowest common denominator. So you have these training videos - don't climb wobbly ladders, don't leave boxes in the aisle for people to trip over and so on. If you don't already have a grasp of that you are too stupid to leave the house, let alone have a job. And if you do leave a box in the aisle and someone trips on it then it's their own stupid fault for walking around in a dream world instead of watching where they put their feet.


I've sat and watched the idiot video along with my colleagues on many occasions and then later in the same day I guarantee there will be a trip hazard which I will then pretend to fall over. So what did that achieve in practical terms? Nothing but a box ticked and as the law stands you can still sue the company even if they did show you the video. There's no application of common sense. Box ticking has replaced common sense.

Agree 100% - Is the whole health & safety thing driven by insurance companies who saw things going the same way as USA? Because non of them give a shiny shite about our welfare.

If I were ever in charge of the country (you never know) this would be one of the first things on my hit list. I would commission an advert saying "Had a trip or fall? Then watch where you're going, dickhead! And don't even think about suing - there's a new sheriff in town and he's not putting up with all that crap".

I don't know what we'd do with all the HSE paperclips then, but I suspect their favourite hobby is standing on train platforms with their bobble hats and little books of numbers. With Hi-Viz vests so the approaching train can see them, and a hard hat just in case it doesn't.

[hifinutt]

sadly there will be many with damaged hearing due to excessive high noise levels for many from rock concerts etc. only this week i was reminding some workers using some very high powered saws with no ear protection or any ppe at all that 2 pounds spent on disposable ear protectors is worthwhile .

[Pigmy Pony]

sadly there will be many with damaged hearing due to excessive high noise levels for many from rock concerts etc. only this week i was reminding some workers using some very high powered saws with no ear protection or any ppe at all that 2 pounds spent on disposable ear protectors is worthwhile .

In the words of the one Billy-no-mates who never went to a live concert, and never worked in a noisy environment: I hear what you're saying.

My hearing is half-knackered, presumably from years of gigs and raves, but then I wasn't really aware of the hazard. These days everyone is aware, and if they choose to ignore it, I feel that is their own look out, and I don't see that their employers (or concert promoters or whoever) should be penalised for not baby sitting these idiots thoroughly enough. Although failing to provide satisfactory PPE is another matter, and those offenders should be nailed to the wall.

[Primalsea]

The whole health and safety thing is upside down IMO

Employers pay attention to it because they don't want to get sued, not because they give a toss if Jimmy in the warehouse gets hit by a forklift. Plenty more Jimmys where he came from. So it is a box-ticking exercise, not a safety exercise. As long as the boxes are ticked then they can demonstrate it is Jimmy's own stupid fault he got hit and they don't have to pay out.


Secondly they assume that people are idiots and so drag everything down to the lowest common denominator. So you have these training videos - don't climb wobbly ladders, don't leave boxes in the aisle for people to trip over and so on. If you don't already have a grasp of that you are too stupid to leave the house, let alone have a job. And if you do leave a box in the aisle and someone trips on it then it's their own stupid fault for walking around in a dream world instead of watching where they put their feet.


I've sat and watched the idiot video along with my colleagues on many occasions and then later in the same day I guarantee there will be a trip hazard which I will then pretend to fall over. So what did that achieve in practical terms? Nothing but a box ticked and as the law stands you can still sue the company even if they did show you the video. There's no application of common sense. Box ticking has replaced common sense.

I agree, it’s not about people’s lives it’s about avoiding the legal consequences. But unfortunately what maybe reasonable and what is law are not always the same.

[Ali Tait]

If you look at HSE in other sectors the employers have to supply appropriate PPE and ensure that employees are aware of safety issues and stop work and mitigate any potential issues. So it would seem that the ROH were responsible in part. But yes, I do agree that individuals should use some common sense and the individual concerned could have easily just asked to be moved away.

Yes that’s true, but the individual is also legally responsible for their own safety and that of others. Both at fault here from what I can see- from a legal standpoint.

[Primalsea]

Well until I start seeing Strings players wearing safety googles, gloves and dust masks when they put rosin on their bows and the whole orchestra wearing ear defenders we can’t really say that things are all good and safe! No doubt the conductors will have to have training and risk assessments done cause they get to wave a pointy stick about.