Triode or Ultralinear, again [Archive]

Haselsh1

11-04-2019, 08:58

Been listening a lot to my power amp in triode and ultralinear modes just to make my mind up as to which I prefer. Yesterday I was listening to Joshua Redman's 'Freedom In The Groove' from 1996 and started in ultralinear mode. Nice crisp, sharp sound with quite a lot of treble detail and plenty of sparkle. I then switched over to triode mode and it immediately lost a lot of its air and sparkle but sounded a whole lot more real and tangible.

I am using JJ EL34's at the moment so those familiar with them will know the 'sound' of that valve but, gotta say, love the triode sound for utter realism of that album. Of yeah, still using Spendors by the way.

The sound is just so dry, close and intimate. Way different to ultralinear. Bring it on..!

;)

mikeyb

11-04-2019, 09:10

I switch between them depending on the recording, sometimes it's better, sometimes not, still using stock PL valves, I own JJ EL34II's but took them out when I thought one of them was causing issues, didn't make any difference to the issue but I haven't put them back in yet.

anthonyTD

11-04-2019, 09:23

Hi Shaun,
First of all;
There are very few Audio tetrode/pentode valves that can be classed as a true triode and therefore those that maintain linearity when connected as one ie; Screen grid strapped to Anode etc, one of which is the KT66, so configuring an amplifier to work on both with most other tetrode/pentodes will almost always compromise on either the tetrode mode, or triode mode, or both!
In my opinion it is always better to optimise an amplifier for either, not both, however; you can get a good compromise much of the time.
Again, in my opinion, what your hearing with your amp in triode mode is the mid to high frequencies dropping off much sooner than in pentode mode, also the gain of the amp will change, almost always needing to be turned up to equal the same sound presure level.
A...

Haselsh1

11-04-2019, 09:35

Anthony you are indeed correct regarding the volume issue. The remainder of what you say I am in no position to comment on. Your knowledge is great against mine. Your comment about the high frequencies though is valid as it does sound as though those frequencies are quite severely rolled off. In ultralinear, the sound is vibrant and full of sparkle but saxophone for example sounds slightly edgy and unreal, however cymbals sound wonderful and the air of the recording is obvious. Vocals also get me in that often a voice has an unnatural edge to it that we simply do not have when we sing in a room but when in triode mode there is no such emphasis. I guess it really is a case of one mode for one sort of music and the other for everything else as stated by mikeyb.

anthonyTD

11-04-2019, 09:41

Hi Shaun, I get where your coming from,
My point being, if the amp was optimised for one or the other, those issues you describe with either mode could I am sure be mostly eliminated.
A...
Anthony you are indeed correct regarding the volume issue. The remainder of what you say I am in no position to comment on. Your knowledge is great against mine. Your comment about the high frequencies though is valid as it does sound as though those frequencies are quite severely rolled off. In ultralinear, the sound is vibrant and full of sparkle but saxophone for example sounds slightly edgy and unreal, however cymbals sound wonderful and the air of the recording is obvious. Vocals also get me in that often a voice has an unnatural edge to it that we simply do not have when we sing in a room but when in triode mode there is no such emphasis. I guess it really is a case of one mode for one sort of music and the other for everything else as stated by mikeyb.

Wakefield Turntables

11-04-2019, 18:35

Why make life complicated? How about simply listening to whatever sounds best for each recording?? :doh:

Lawrence001

11-04-2019, 20:39

Why make life complicated? How about simply listening to whatever sounds best for each recording?? :doh:Because you can get caught up in constantly fiddling around to decide which sounds better and forget to listen to the music. A trap I'm just starting to escape from with all my box swapping in recent years.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

Wakefield Turntables

12-04-2019, 08:32

Because you can get caught up in constantly fiddling around to decide which sounds better and forget to listen to the music. A trap I'm just starting to escape from with all my box swapping in recent years.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

Couldn't agree with you more. I've been selling boxes. I'm happy with my kit. Things in my system haven't changed in years.

Opti-cal

12-04-2019, 13:51

Just IME,

generally triode mode for acoustic/small arrangement/vocal pieces. Certainly sounds closer to how I presume the original recording sounded.

They sound amazing with acoustic wind and string instruments.

UL for larger scale dynamic and rock music. Has more slam, bass and sheer "mass" of sound.

As you have observed, things can get shrill if directly compared with the tracks you've just auditioned in triode mode.

But, what you lose in delicacy and charm you should gain in dynamics and scale, at least that is my experience.

As Anthony points out you are unlikely to get to experience the full merits of both until you have an amp designed for one or 'tother.

I've got a KT88 amp that puts out 35w in triode and around 50w in UL. I reckon it sounds best in triode 80% of the time but given the music I listen to that's not so surprising. Even taking into account what I said above, It's a good amp in general, so actually sounds better than a lot of dedicated triode/UL amps (under say £1000) simply due to being a better design (and slightly upgraded).

If you're going to "settle" on one or the other I think its horses for courses depending on your majority music preference.

Happy listening.

Haselsh1

12-04-2019, 14:05

Opti-cal

12-04-2019, 14:26

Chris, damn fine post and very true. I used to have an SE 300B with Audio Note speakers but found I needed two amps. I now have effectively two amps in one box and have been swapping between the two exactly as you have said. Triode mode is so damn sweet with a huge level of realism but ultralinear has loads of energy and punch. Also, ultralinear has a shedload of air and sparkle that really suits the likes of Ozric Tentacles with their everso reverby, atmospheric sound.

I still think though that my most perfect amp would be a 300B push pull.

OMG, that 300B sound.

;)

My favorite 300B amp got lost in the post from Italy after extensive modifications . . . . :(

No emoji sad enough to convey really . . .

The builder, who took responsibility for the loss, did send a "better" 2a3 replacement as compensation, but alas it aint no 300B. . .

anthonyTD

12-04-2019, 15:10

True triodes [300B, 2A3, PX4, PX25,PP5/400 etc, etc] when used in a circuit that impliments them properly do not suffer the drawbacks experienced with most Tetrodes, and pentodes, connected as triodes, as we see in amps that have the switching facility fitted to turn Tetrodes, or Pentodes into triode operation, therefore its not a fair comparison.
From what I have seen with many amps that have these switching facilities fitted, it has been added to make a sometimes unlistenable amp on some types of music, listenable, when switched to Triode mode, either way, IMHO both operating topologies are compromised in many of these designs.
A...

Haselsh1

13-04-2019, 08:31

OK, so just what is it about the 300B that makes it sound so incredibly..... whatever the word is, but definitely sublime...? And, how is it that even when the 300B is wired for push pull operation it is still so bloody pure and airey...?

Yes, my experience of the 300B was a WAD 300B PP back in the day by Nick Lucas but the sound was so damn spacey and airey. Yeah, bass was a bit elastic band but that midrange vocal and treble was sublime.

I also owned an Audion 300B SE amp which was excellent but maybe not quite as good as the WAD. The WAD seemed better suited to a larger range of music types.

Haselsh1

13-04-2019, 08:36

I'm guessing that the operation of amps like my current one is purely down to personal taste as it sounds extremely good in either mode unless of course you prefer less treble and a more intimate vocal for say jazz and then triode sounds better. I mean, would anyone listen to jazz with a 250 Watt per channel tranny amp...? Would there actually be any benefit...? It seems to me that once again this is displaying the hi-fi hobby and its quirks or maybe our quirks.

Haselsh1

13-04-2019, 08:37

My favorite 300B amp got lost in the post from Italy after extensive modifications . . . . :(

No emoji sad enough to convey really . . .

The builder, who took responsibility for the loss, did send a "better" 2a3 replacement as compensation, but alas it aint no 300B. . .

Amazingly sad loss Chris. I would cry for weeks

:(

Pharos

13-04-2019, 09:11

From Shaun;
"I mean, would anyone listen to jazz with a 250 Watt per channel tranny amp...? "

Well I was listening to everything on just such, and it was to me very good, (ATC SPA2).

But, having never experienced the 300B ethos, I may really be missing something and be in a contracted and deluded world of my own. I used EL34 and 84 amps up until '70, and have been SS ever since.

If I were a multi, multi, millionaire, I would buy it all and with a vast mansion try everything, with 100 audiophiles having a long stay in the many spare bedrooms, and helping to evaluate it all and come to conclusions by consensus.
We could do lots of measurements and DB AB testing, and thrash out the state of play.
Think of the numerousness of the combinations.

This would for me be a better use of time than swanning around the world in a yacht and driving a Lamborghini.

anthonyTD

13-04-2019, 09:55

Hi Shaun,
True Triodes are very linear, and produce predominently low order even harmonics, which our ears like, therefore; it is not unusual to find on test that some of the well known, and therefore well loved triode amps have distortion levels as high as 10% or more, which would be intolerable with many solid state and pentode amps. And because of the distortion characteristics of triode amps, very little to no feedback is often required, which helps in allowing that ledgendary, magical mid range of Triodes to shine through. Unfortunetly though there are drawbacks; as stated bass frequencies are often compromised, or severely underdamped, also; triode amps are very inefficient when compared with Tetrode/Pentode amps.
A...
OK, so just what is it about the 300B that makes it sound so incredibly..... whatever the word is, but definitely sublime...? And, how is it that even when the 300B is wired for push pull operation it is still so bloody pure and airey...?

Yes, my experience of the 300B was a WAD 300B PP back in the day by Nick Lucas but the sound was so damn spacey and airey. Yeah, bass was a bit elastic band but that midrange vocal and treble was sublime.

I also owned an Audion 300B SE amp which was excellent but maybe not quite as good as the WAD. The WAD seemed better suited to a larger range of music types.

Haselsh1

13-04-2019, 12:19

Once again Anthony, many thanks for the reply. The WAD 300B amp I had back around 1997 did indeed have a feedback switch for on or off (obvious I guess) and with feedback did have a lot more guts and oomph but lost almost all of the magic. Once again I guess a case of meat and poison. If I only had the system I have now with that pre/power combo I think the sound would be my ultimate. It is not the case though as that was quite some years back. I still remember that classic air and midrange vocal though.

Haselsh1

13-04-2019, 12:24

Even with my present Prima Luna combination in triode mode the vocal sound on female jazz is bloody astonishing. The only problem though is that triode mode removes that extra air and sparkle thus leaving me here, not quite able to make up my mind. I guess it all depends on mood at the time. In the darkness of a winter evening triode wins through easily but listening to Deadmau5, maybe not.

;)

anthonyTD

13-04-2019, 14:41

I made a few amps earlier on in my career that had Tetrode/triode switches fitted, but I also fitted feedback switches, so that the feedback in either mode could be reduced, I also fitted a variable control that would only reduce the feedback at low frequencies, this tended to act in a similar way to a loudness control.
Anyway, glad my ramblings have been of some interest. :)
A...
Once again Anthony, many thanks for the reply. The WAD 300B amp I had back around 1997 did indeed have a feedback switch for on or off (obvious I guess) and with feedback did have a lot more guts and oomph but lost almost all of the magic. Once again I guess a case of meat and poison. If I only had the system I have now with that pre/power combo I think the sound would be my ultimate. It is not the case though as that was quite some years back. I still remember that classic air and midrange vocal though.

goraman

13-04-2019, 16:41

I found that while triode is great for vocalists and small acoustic sessions, for large scale orchestral recordings it sucks!
UL has far more body and slam and energizes both the room and soul .

anthonyTD

14-04-2019, 11:05

:)
I found that while triode is great for vocalists and small acoustic sessions, for large scale orchestral recordings it sucks!
UL has far more body and slam and energizes both the room and soul .

Opti-cal

15-04-2019, 09:44

Amazingly sad loss Chris. I would cry for weeks

:(

Twas a low point Shaun to put it mildly. However after I finished feeling sorry for myself (about 2 months . . .) I have found a nice synergy with my Quad 63's and a push-pull KT88 amplifier that I would not have happened across had I not been "unlucky" enough to find myself in this situation.

Does it have the addictive harmonic distortion of the 300b? Not really, certainly not to the extent that makes the 300b magical. However what it has done is give me depth, dynamics and slam that the 300b could only hint at.

With these speakers and a few other system tweaks I'm actually starting to prefer it . . .

I will get another worthy 300b one day but to be honest I'm having so much fun messing around with all types of other kit and bits and bobs, its been relegated on my list of priorities.

Back to the thread - most important is the circuit design that any specific tube is in, however I think the 300b more than most (possibly all) does seem to stamp its sound signature more forcefully than other tube types. I've heard amplifiers which seem to have a linear sound regardless of tubes used and others which sound markedly different when tube rolling. Main examples being a Musical Paradise MP-401 and a (cheaper) EL34 SET.
Tried different EL34's/6CA7's/KT88's in the Musical Paradise and could barely tell the difference (although all sounded excellent) then tried EL34's/6CA7's/6L6's in the SET and could instantly detect the signatures of all the different tubes.

Probably because it was comparing a push-pull design with a SET (although there was no lack of detail in the push-pull design). I'm sure Anthony can probably explain why this was the case.

Cheers,

Chris

anthonyTD

15-04-2019, 11:00

There is definately a diffrence in the way each design topology [push-pull, Single ended] portrays each valve, and the potential characteristics they may have. Single ended amps using All triodes produce low order even harmonics, which as stated in my earlier post are pleasing to our ears, and therefore reletively large amounts [within reason] are tolerable, however, using a pentode/Tetrode in a single ended design will not only produce low order even harmonics,[2nd] but also low order odd harmonics [3rd] too. in a push-pull All triode design, even harmonics are to a degree canceled out, depending on the matching of the devices, and the accuracy of the output transformer etc, in the same amp, using Pentodes/Tetrodes the same even order cancelation occurs, however; because pentodes/tetrodes also produce low order odd harmonics, these are mostly left intact, although can be reduced to a degree with the use of feedback etc, I hope this very brief explanation helps to explain what may be happening in each valve design, when placed in either topology.
A...
Twas a low point Shaun to put it mildly. However after I finished feeling sorry for myself (about 2 months . . .) I have found a nice synergy with my Quad 63's and a push-pull KT88 amplifier that I would not have happened across had I not been "unlucky" enough to find myself in this situation.

Does it have the addictive harmonic distortion of the 300b? Not really, certainly not to the extent that makes the 300b magical. However what it has done is give me depth, dynamics and slam that the 300b could only hint at.

With these speakers and a few other system tweaks I'm actually starting to prefer it . . .

I will get another worthy 300b one day but to be honest I'm having so much fun messing around with all types of other kit and bits and bobs, its been relegated on my list of priorities.

Back to the thread - most important is the circuit design that any specific tube is in, however I think the 300b more than most (possibly all) does seem to stamp its sound signature more forcefully than other tube types. I've heard amplifiers which seem to have a linear sound regardless of tubes used and others which sound markedly different when tube rolling. Main examples being a Musical Paradise MP-401 and a (cheaper) EL34 SET.
Tried different EL34's/6CA7's/KT88's in the Musical Paradise and could barely tell the difference (although all sounded excellent) then tried EL34's/6CA7's/6L6's in the SET and could instantly detect the signatures of all the different tubes.

Probably because it was comparing a push-pull design with a SET (although there was no lack of detail in the push-pull design). I'm sure Anthony can probably explain why this was the case.

Cheers,

Chris

Opti-cal

15-04-2019, 11:38

I hope this very brief explanation helps to explain what may be happening in each valve design, when placed in either topology.
A...

Indeed it does Anthony, thanks very much for your insight.

Nice one.

anthonyTD

15-04-2019, 12:04

Of course we also have the added complication of the type of class each valve is run in, for eg, conventional Single ended amps using Triodes, pentodes, and tetrodes are inherently class A, this means they draw all the current needed for a specific power output all of the time, where as push-pull amps using the same types of valves can be run anywhere between class B, class A,B, right into class A, depending on the goal required. :)
A...
Indeed it does Anthony, thanks very much for your insight.

Nice one.

karma67

15-04-2019, 12:10

When you checked over the John wood amp what was that? Class a or a/b
Mine makes 112 watts or so the engineer said.

anthonyTD

15-04-2019, 15:49

The amp in question was a grid biased amp, so its bias point was inbetween B and A, depending on what power output John wanted from it.
A...
When you checked over the John wood amp what was that? Class a or a/b
Mine makes 112 watts or so the engineer said.

karma67

15-04-2019, 16:11

ah,i was told mine (which i believe is the same design) was ultralinear,so does that mean you can control the class A or A/B by adjusting the tube bias?
if you dont mind me asking what bias would you run GEC kt88's at? i have them at 35

anthonyTD

16-04-2019, 08:17

The amp can still be ultra-linear output, it does not dictate the bias setting etc.
As for the bias setting of the GEC KT88's, well, again' it would depend on the HT Voltage, and what class of operation the amp is designed to work at.
ah,i was told mine (which i believe is the same design) was ultralinear,so does that mean you can control the class A or A/B by adjusting the tube bias?
if you dont mind me asking what bias would you run GEC kt88's at? i have them at 35

Haselsh1

16-04-2019, 13:36

One of the things I cannot find out about my power amp is whether it is class a or a.n.other. All I know is that it is EL34 push pull with an output of up to 40 Watts per channel in ultralinear or 20 Watts in triode. I was though listening yesterday to Museum Of Consciousness by Shpongle in ultralinear and it sounded bloody sublime (with the sub). As has already been stated here, my guess is that the modus operandi is largely dictated by the music. Bloody lovely sound, well impressed.

goraman

16-04-2019, 17:13

It is most likely class A for the first couple watts 1 to 1.5 then as the amp is pushed moves to class A/B. I am not a fan of pure class A amps that do high power.

anthonyTD

16-04-2019, 17:29

Its most likely to be class AB1.
One of the things I cannot find out about my power amp is whether it is class a or a.n.other. All I know is that it is EL34 push pull with an output of up to 40 Watts per channel in ultralinear or 20 Watts in triode. I was though listening yesterday to Museum Of Consciousness by Shpongle in ultralinear and it sounded bloody sublime (with the sub). As has already been stated here, my guess is that the modus operandi is largely dictated by the music. Bloody lovely sound, well impressed.

Haselsh1

17-04-2019, 08:16

So, apart from headroom, would anything be gained by moving to Temple Audio monoblocks with separate PSU's over a Class AB1 valve amp..? How do these amps sound when compared to EL34 valves...?

anthonyTD

23-04-2019, 15:25

Sorry Shaun, was this question aimed at me ?
If so, I can't really offer any useful opinion either way, again, sorry.
So, apart from headroom, would anything be gained by moving to Temple Audio monoblocks with separate PSU's over a Class AB1 valve amp..? How do these amps sound when compared to EL34 valves...?

Haselsh1

23-04-2019, 15:40

Sorry Shaun, was this question aimed at me ?
If so, I can't really offer any useful opinion either way, again, sorry.

Anthony, sorry for the confusion. The question was aimed at anyone who can help really as the Temple Audio monoblocks are apparently Class D and so have no crossover distortion..? I just wondered how this may compare to a Class AB valve amplifier...? Also, whilst talking about amplifier Class types, I know that my head is full of confusion on the subject. Class A, no crossover distortion, surely that is applicable to single ended...? If you are using one amplifying device per channel then there is no crossover between the positive and negative cycle..? Hence no crossover distortion...? So how the hell does single ended and Class A differ..? I understand that a Class A device is permanently 'switched on' or drawing from the mains supply...? It does my 'ead in ;)

anthonyTD

23-04-2019, 18:24

Hi Shaun,
Understood. As for class A, in theory; if the amplifier in question is true class A then as you quite rightly say,,,it shouldnt matter whether it was Single ended, or Push-pull, it will have no cross-over distortion, because each valve will be conducting 100% of the time, however; most conventional class A push-pull power amplifiers will often draw a little more current when pushed to their maximum power output.
Hope this helps.
A...
Anthony, sorry for the confusion. The question was aimed at anyone who can help really as the Temple Audio monoblocks are apparently Class D and so have no crossover distortion..? I just wondered how this may compare to a Class AB valve amplifier...? Also, whilst talking about amplifier Class types, I know that my head is full of confusion on the subject. Class A, no crossover distortion, surely that is applicable to single ended...? If you are using one amplifying device per channel then there is no crossover between the positive and negative cycle..? Hence no crossover distortion...? So how the hell does single ended and Class A differ..? I understand that a Class A device is permanently 'switched on' or drawing from the mains supply...? It does my 'ead in ;)

Haselsh1

27-04-2019, 18:35

So I take it that crossover distortion is caused by the devices switching between the positive and negative cycles..? So from that, if the amp is single ended there will be no switching and hence no crossover distortion due to there being only one device per channel..? So class A and AB can be single ended..? However only Class A is permanently 'switched on' and amplifying..? Still does my 'ead in ;)

walpurgis

27-04-2019, 18:43

Sussed out Class D yet Shaun? :)

Haselsh1

27-04-2019, 18:45

Sussed out Class D yet Shaun? :)

:steam:

Who the hell would have thought electrons could be so sodding annoying

;)

Haselsh1

27-04-2019, 18:46

Sussed out Class D yet Shaun? :)

Geoff I have only just found out that it has nothing at all to do with 'digital'

Haselsh1

27-04-2019, 18:50

Just been checking it out on Wikipedia. May as well have been bloody Chinese.

walpurgis

27-04-2019, 18:51

If you can understand how AM radio works, you'll understand Class D amps, there are similarities.

Haselsh1

28-04-2019, 07:42

I got the impression that it may be something to do with PWM but all I know about that is from analogue synths and square waves.

anthonyTD

29-04-2019, 09:08

Cross over distortion is caused by two halves of the signal being reproduced by two or more devices in a push-pull arrangment not joining, or coming together properly at the cross-over point, [how bad will depend on how hard each output device in each half of the push-pull is switched on] if you take an example of a sign wave in a class B output stage, you would likely see a misalignment half way down where the two halves of each half of the signal come together, this sometimes looks like a kink. its a bit like cutting two eggs in roughly half, and trying to put each half of the diffrent egg together, they will look ok, until you look really close, The variation of how bad this miss-alignment is will depend on how far into class B the amp is biased, eg; CLASS A, CLASS AB1, CLASS AB, CLASS B. As for single ended, as stated, conventional single ended is inherently Class A, due to the single device having to draw all the necessary current needed for a specific power output ALL of the time.
again hope this helps.

A...
So I take it that crossover distortion is caused by the devices switching between the positive and negative cycles..? So from that, if the amp is single ended there will be no switching and hence no crossover distortion due to there being only one device per channel..? So class A and AB can be single ended..? However only Class A is permanently 'switched on' and amplifying..? Still does my 'ead in ;)

Haselsh1

03-05-2019, 07:35

OK, so why does a directly heated triode win out over so many others in terms of sound quality..? And why, even in push pull mode, does it still sound superior..?

I'm guessing but I reckon my perfect amplifier would probably be a single ended 300B in parallel for a bit more power.

anthonyTD

03-05-2019, 08:55

Hi Shaun,
There is a lot to be said for simplicity, especialy when simplicity works! with directly heated triodes, they are the simplest in terms of parts count per valve, ie; Anode, or Plate, Control grid, and Heater which doubles as Cathode too! As for them having superior sound quality,. well that is a very subjective, but I supose if your describing them from a simplisitic view, then I agree, to a point.
Horses for courses, I don't paticularly like that saying, but in this case it is very apt.
OK, so why does a directly heated triode win out over so many others in terms of sound quality..? And why, even in push pull mode, does it still sound superior..?

I'm guessing but I reckon my perfect amplifier would probably be a single ended 300B in parallel for a bit more power.