View Full Version : Any experience with "full range" single drivers?
I want to add a near field system to the headphone system in my office. The speakers will be set up on my large desk, but I've been looking at small mini-monitor type speakers - 6, 6.5 inch woofers, that sort of thing. I have a few choices of amps, From a single-ended pentode 5-watter up to full digital, and far more power than will ever be needed for speakers just a few feet from my ears. The speakers are the question, and there are a ton of choices out there, and some absolutely great bargains in good-sounding small 2-way speakers.
The thing is, I'm a headphone geek and every time I listen to small two-ways in my price range (hundreds, not thousands), I miss the midrange purity and coherence of my Senns (I have some very well broken-in HD580s). I want that crossover-less purity floating out in the air in front of me, and that naturally leads to a lot of curiosity about full range drivers. I've been down this road before, and have even spoken to Eric Alexander, designer and builder of speakers called Tekton. But I've chickened out before, after thinking too much about the compromises inherent in such designs instead of the benefits.
Can anyone encourage or dissuade me? From direct personal experience? Or just tell me to shut up and buy the damn things and get it out of my system? This is almost a haunt. Or like a woman I can't get off my mind...well, until I sleep with her...
Tim
Ever thought about ADM9's ?
Sorry....
No really....I'm very sorry.
Hehe... :eyebrows:
Tim,
You need to talk to people like Lurcher, solid-state, SPS, and any of the hard-core D.I.Y guys, who will be able to help you with this one. I'm sure they'll be along soon to offer some advice :smoking:
Marco.
Lots of options, but many of the ones I know and like are not exactly small boxes you would have on your desk, but things like the frugals and the metronomes can give great results.
http://www.frugal-horn.com/
If you can use a larger box, I personally like Scotts MLQW design
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=286&start=0
SolidState
31-05-2008, 10:27
For desktop speakers these spring to mind:
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/fonken.html
Filterlab
31-05-2008, 12:43
I definitely like the Fonken standmounts, very cool looking and interesting ported design. When I first looked at the plans I thought they were sealed enclosures.
Oh do I need to get a shed with a bandsaw in it!
Thanks guys. I wasn't looking for plans our sources so much as some opinions on the sound and capabilities of this category of speaker. I followed on of your threads, through a link to "humble homead hifi," and found this description:
Listening impressions and remarks
I have a love and hate relationship with these speakers. When playing an intimate jazz trio, a Beethoven string quartet or solo vocals you nearly fall off your chair with amazement. Such openness, neutrality and an amazing sound stage with immense depth and width. Every thing can be pin-pointed in the virtual soundscape, every little sound, the turning of a page of sheet music, the breathing of the instrumentalists, its all there. But as soon as it gets a bit heavy (large orchestral works or complex jazz-rock) everything gets muddled up.
I keep running into the same basic description of various single-driver systems. The first half is what attracts me. The second half has stopped me dead in my tracks a couple of times. I suppose what I need is elaboration. Or a listening experience.
This is for a near-field configuration, so a lot of volume won't be needed. I would, in fact, prefer speakers that will develop their full sound at moderate volume.
The first half of the description appeals to me because I listen to a lot of music that is pretty simple, straightforward and built largely around acoustic instruments and vocals -- 50s/60s jazz, Americana. I don't listen to classical or metal or fusion, but if the addition of a few extra electric instruments, layering of background vocals, sweetening with a bit of strings -- the sort of thing that is very common in popular music -- is going to drive single-drivers into the mud, even at moderate volume just a few feet from my ears, then they're probably not for me.
I don't expect them to be all things. I can always pop on the headphones when I want to listen to my Bruford-Wetton era King Crimson collection (in fact, my wife insists upon it). But if they can really only handle voices, acoustic instruments and a lightly-played drum kit, they're probably too limited for me.
Any words of wisdom?
Tim
Filterlab
31-05-2008, 13:00
Well, I know it's still a bit of a DIY job, but you could purchase a used pair of mini monitors (say JBLs or something similar) from ebay and remove the main driver and crossover and replace it with a full range driver.
Mostly I think you'll find that full range driver speakers tend to be DIY. There's not a huge commercial demand for them although the likes of M&J Acoustics and Lowther make them but they're normally very large and very expensive.
I think in reality you need to listen to a good full range setup. In reality, no, they are not at their best playing Wagner at loud volumn. But for just about everything else they can be wonderfull. Mo is using a pair of fruglehorns I built and he listen to a lot of trance and electronic music, and seems happy. And things like the Maravishnu Orchestra work just fine as long as you don't expect 110dB sound. For near field listening I think you should give it a try.
Ali Tait
31-05-2008, 13:32
I would agree with Nick on this.I've heard several full-range speakers and I think they would suit you down to the ground given the type of music you listen to.If you're looking for a commercial design,try looking for a pair of used Adire,maybe the HE10 would suit you.AFAIK the company no longer exists,others may know more.I've not heard a pair myself,but have read good things about them.Might be worth a punt.
Thanks guys, that's exactly what I needed to hear. If I can get the sweetness, coherence, imaging...all the stuff they're known for up to your basic rock/pop recording, I'm good. In fact, even if they got a bit wiggy with a big rock ensemble recording I'd be ok. I tend to listen to that stuff as background anyway. My serious, concentrated listening tends to circle around acoustic, voice and old jazz.
I have neither the skills nor the room to DIY, but I think I've found my supplier in Eric Alexander. His Tekton speakers (http://www.tektondesign.com/customdesignwork.htm can get as expensive as any of them, but he will also build me a pair of his 4.5s (which is what he recommends; he really doesn't seem to like his own 6.5s!) in basic black for $400. Basic black is fine on my desktop. Preferred, actually.
Tim
I want to add a near field system to the headphone system in my office. The speakers will be set up on my large desk, but I've been looking at small mini-monitor type speakers - 6, 6.5 inch woofers, that sort of thing. I have a few choices of amps, From a single-ended pentode 5-watter up to full digital, and far more power than will ever be needed for speakers just a few feet from my ears. The speakers are the question, and there are a ton of choices out there, and some absolutely great bargains in good-sounding small 2-way speakers.
The thing is, I'm a headphone geek and every time I listen to small two-ways in my price range (hundreds, not thousands), I miss the midrange purity and coherence of my Senns (I have some very well broken-in HD580s). I want that crossover-less purity floating out in the air in front of me, and that naturally leads to a lot of curiosity about full range drivers. I've been down this road before, and have even spoken to Eric Alexander, designer and builder of speakers called Tekton. But I've chickened out before, after thinking too much about the compromises inherent in such designs instead of the benefits.
Can anyone encourage or dissuade me? From direct personal experience? Or just tell me to shut up and buy the damn things and get it out of my system? This is almost a haunt. Or like a woman I can't get off my mind...well, until I sleep with her...
Tim
Good full range drivers are expensive by their very nature. And like all expressions full range is a relative term. I am in this very situation you have. I work in a fairy tight and close environment. I wish to listen to music when working at my computer and also at my workbench and I also need to test gear, so out of necessity I need near field as I cannot get more than 4 to 5 feet from the speakers. Well in my opinion and if cost is a relative factor then buy second hand - for top quality then small Royds - for very good and cost effective then JPW - these latter can be bought on ebay for as little as £20. I use JPW for this purpose and I am more than happy with them. I have looked at Fostex et al and though they may be better for all I know but with all that additional cost and work I cannot be arsed.
Good full range drivers are expensive by their very nature. And like all expressions full range is a relative term. I am in this very situation you have. I work in a fairy tight and close environment. I wish to listen to music when working at my computer and also at my workbench and I also need to test gear, so out of necessity I need near field as I cannot get more than 4 to 5 feet from the speakers. Well in my opinion and if cost is a relative factor then buy second hand - for top quality then small Royds - for very good and cost effective then JPW - these latter can be bought on ebay for as little as £20. I use JPW for this purpose and I am more than happy with them. I have looked at Fostex et al and though they may be better for all I know but with all that additional cost and work I cannot be arsed.
I'd rather buy used, to tell you the truth. Not because I don't have faith in Eric or the Fostex drivers, both get rave reviews, but because the Fostex drivers are reported to have very long break-in times and I'm not the most patient guy in the world ;). But most of these systems are tall, floor-standers and I need desktops. So I'm looking for the rare thing in the rare category. I never see them for sale. Any suggestions on where to look? On the US side of the pond?
Tim
PS: I found a website for JPW, but no single driver speakers. I guess they're discontinued. Is there a particular model number I should search for online?
You may find this thread on Audio-Talk of interest. DTB is building pretty much the same thing you want.
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=730
anthonyTD
01-06-2008, 10:21
Thanks guys, that's exactly what I needed to hear. If I can get the sweetness, coherence, imaging...all the stuff they're known for up to your basic rock/pop recording, I'm good. In fact, even if they got a bit wiggy with a big rock ensemble recording I'd be ok. I tend to listen to that stuff as background anyway. My serious, concentrated listening tends to circle around acoustic, voice and old jazz.
I have neither the skills nor the room to DIY, but I think I've found my supplier in Eric Alexander. His Tekton speakers (http://www.tektondesign.com/customdesignwork.htm can get as expensive as any of them, but he will also build me a pair of his 4.5s (which is what he recommends; he really doesn't seem to like his own 6.5s!) in basic black for $400. Basic black is fine on my desktop. Preferred, actually.
Tim
hi tim,
one of the best small full range drivers i have heard are the ones made by TED JORDAN, they are quite expensive, but do a lot of what you require very well indeed.
regards,anthony.:)
aquapiranha
09-06-2008, 22:35
I will just add..(my first post here..) that since I heard my fist full ranger a year ago, a small RLH Fostex FE103 design, I was bitten, and since I have built the considerably larger Sachiko by Scottmoose, and to say I am happy would be an understatement. If anyone needs any info on them please ask.
Steve.
I use Audio Nirvana drivers from here.
http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/
Very similar to Fostex.
Quite long break in time as well, but very good after a few hours.
I will just add..(my first post here..) that since I heard my fist full ranger a year ago, a small RLH Fostex FE103 design, I was bitten, and since I have built the considerably larger Sachiko by Scottmoose, and to say I am happy would be an understatement. If anyone needs any info on them please ask.
Steve.
I would like to know more, Steve. I think perhaps that some really nice single drivers in a nearfield configuration, perhaps with a sub, perhps not, perhaps with some really good digital eq, perhaps not, might be my personal path to audio bliss..........
Tim
combwork
10-06-2008, 07:56
I want to add a near field system to the headphone system in my office. Tim
What about these? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pair-of-Lowther-PM7C-Drive-Units_W0QQitemZ160248072182QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m160248072182&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 They're usually set in big boxes, but that doesn't mean they have to be. As to full range, I think they're about the best you'll get. Not bass heavy in a small box, but a natural smooth sound. Also very sensitive; doesn't take a lot of watts to make them sing. I wouldn't worry too much about one being "open circuit". They really are efficient; if enough power was put in to fry a voice coil I'd expect the suspension plus surround to be trashed. Remember they're being sold by a shop so will have had a quick test. Could be an easy fix?.............:smoking:
but a natural smooth sound.
Hmm, we all hear differently, but I would not have described Lowthers as having a smooth sound, the upper mid rising response always gets my ears.
combwork
10-06-2008, 12:15
Hmm, we all hear differently, but I would not have described Lowthers as having a smooth sound, the upper mid rising response always gets my ears.
Possibly, I guess it depends to some extent on the amp or the 'sound' of the cabinet. The original poster mentioned the possibility of a valve amp; in my experience, valves and Lowthers go together beautifully:violin:
Possibly, I guess it depends to some extent on the amp or the 'sound' of the cabinet. The original poster mentioned the possibility of a valve amp; in my experience, valves and Lowthers go together beautifully:violin:
Yes, agreed, but I would still not describe the sound as smooth, that is unless the amp has a very curtailed and falling response above 8kHz
Agreed. I like Lowthers, but the last thing I'd call them is "smooth"! And I certainly wouldn't be using them with anything other than a valve amp (and an S.E.T one at that).
Marco.
Agreed. I like Lowthers, but the last thing I'd call them is "smooth"! And I certainly wouldn't be using them with anything other than a valve amp (and an S.E.T one at that).
Marco.
Evidently the Fostex have an upper-mid peak as well. Most designers use a filter to flatten it out. I probably won't be using the Lowthers unless I run across a builder somewhere building a large desktop-size speaker utilizing them. The Tektons, which use various Fostex drivers, get great reports, and he builds a couple of them good nearfield sizes. The ones I'm most interested in use a 4.5 inch driver in a deep, narrow front-ported cab about 17" high. Perfect for my purposes.
Tim
The upper mid peak is hard to avoid with any high efficiency driver.
The upper mid peak is hard to avoid with any high efficiency driver.
Evidently. It seems that it is pretty easy to cure with a bit of passive filtering, though.
Tim
Does that not, at least to some extent, negate the point of using a full range driver? :confused:
Not really, Mike. If you like what they do well (and it is substantial) then the small downside is well worth it. It also depends what music you mostly listen to. Furthermore, not all high efficiency drivers exhibit the sonic characteristics of Lowthers, as I'm sure Nick will tell you.
I guess like anything else in hi-fi it's a compromise. Once you hear well-implemented examples of high efficiency full-range loudspeakers and become attuned to the way they present music (with a good SET amp) you can hear all too easily the colorations present in multi-driver box speakers - particularly the effect of the crossovers.
I'm not saying though it's necessarily what I would use in my own system. We all have different priorities ;)
Tim - keep up the good work. I must say you've become an excellent contributor since you've joined! So have Baja and the others guys, too, from the AK and SH forums :)
Marco.
aquapiranha
10-06-2008, 15:46
Does that not, at least to some extent, negate the point of using a full range driver? :confused:
I would agree with that statement to a degree, though i really would not know if a filter would introduce the same phase issues normally found with conventional crossovers. FWIW I find after using the fostex's that I do not bother listening for anomalies and instead I just enjoy the music.
:)
Correction filters do work to some extent, but some of us prefer the sound without filtering. There is an arguement, for and against.
I suppose if i hadn't heard the drivers before correction then i would have been happy enough.
Its difficult to describe the effect they have but its clearly audible.
high efficiency full-range loudspeakers
Marco.
Ah!... a full range loudspeaker can have many drivers Marco.
It's NOT the same thing as a full range driver, where the whole audio range is produced by a single driver. ;)
LOL. What I meant was loudspeakers using a single full-range driver. I have heard many examples of these :)
Marco.
Yeah, I thought that was what you meant. But I tought I'd take the piss a little anyway!
:lolsign:
You "tought"?
I tought I tought a putty cat... :lol:
;)
Marco.
Hehe... It's the arthritis setting in ;)
Marco.
Filterlab
10-06-2008, 20:37
Either that or the dementure. :)
Pah.... Marco's only 2 years younger than me. Zimmer's all round before too long! ;)
SolidState
10-06-2008, 21:09
Just my 0.0000002 pence (adjusted for inflation) Tread VERY carefully with FR speakers, they are so downright addictive. I've had Nick's frugal horns for a while now and I took delivery of some vintage open baffle german speakers today, and these are alnico magnets. The bottom line is i'm torn between the two:(
Guys, did you mean 'dementia' earlier? "Dementure" suggests a cross between dementia and dentures, which I suppose is about right! :lolsign:
Mo, I agree - FR speakers are addictive. I was very impressed with the ones I heard at Owston, and I presume the ones you're listening to are even better. The way they draw you into the music is uncanny.
Marco.
P.S Next time you speak to Ali can you ask him if he's finished his wee hissy fit yet (regarding the forum)? ;)
Tell him to stop acting like a big girl and come and say hello :)
Marco.
jandl100
11-06-2008, 07:57
Oops - I've only just noticed this thread. Sorry if it's done & dusted now!
If it were me, I'd give the Ferguson Hill FH007 'mini system' a serious look. This is a baby version of the (mostly) full range transparent horn system that usually sounds hugely impressive imho at Shows.
I heard this a year or so back at the Bristol Show and it sounded fantastic as a desk top system. Truly, jaw-droppingly holographic presentation - you're Senns will hide their heads in shame. ;)
OK, so it's not 'full range' - there are little sub-boxes too. But most of the range is covered by the little horns. Well worth seeking out, imho. They were selling some on eBay for a few £100 I think, but I can't find any current auctions.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/FHminisystem.jpg
Now that's what I call a mini system - seriously cool (and cute)! :smoking:
Marco.
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