Streaming Versus CD

[AD Audio]

Audio Al came round last Sunday to collect his repaired amp and I played him his favourite Tears for Fears track via Qobuz and it sounded complete shite-and I'm not talking about his musical taste either!

I tried some more random tracks and some sound great, others flat as pancakes.

I've read that Qobuz and others upsample MP3 tracks to CD quality and I guess this would explain things.

Anyone else experiencing this or care to comment?
David

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[struth]

Can't say I've heard that. Sounds pretty good in my system

[macspur]

Never had that problem with Spotify via my Sonos and DAC

[AD Audio]

There's something wrong. A lot of tracks are markedly inferior to Swiss Radio Jazz which is 128 aac

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[struth]

Sounds like it's set on a low stream rate. Check settings etc.

[AD Audio]

First thing I checked. It's only some tracks / albums.......,

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[struth]

Dunno then. Sounds like it's reducing quality at times. Maybe the Internet is struggling. You could try downloading the tracks in flac and replaying. It should be at cd level

[George47]

If the internet gets busy the data rate is reduced to avoid losing the signal which the companies think is better. Iy happens more at busy times. Tidal is worse than Qobuz in my experience.

[montesquieu]

Only answer: stick to viny. No variable bit rate there.

[AD Audio]

Only answer: stick to viny. No variable bit rate there.CDs work too!

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[Sherwood]

If the internet gets busy the data rate is reduced to avoid losing the signal which the companies think is better. Iy happens more at busy times. Tidal is worse than Qobuz in my experience.

I really doubt this is an issue, especially for those with fibre connections. Even with High Res digital streaming the bandwidth requirements are fairly modest. With typical download speeds of 30mb or more for fibre the bandwidth would have to be reduced massively to affect SQ.

[Sherwood]

First thing I checked. It's only some tracks / albums.......,

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Do you have an ethernet connection or are you using wifi?

[AD Audio]

It's not an internet issue. Netflix streams with amazing video and sound quality. No point paying £20 pm for worse SQ than I can get free from FIP, France Musique, and Radio Swiss Jazz. Better buying downloads with more dosh going to the artists!

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[AD Audio]

Do you have an ethernet connection or are you using wifi?Ethernet

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[Audio Al]

Only answer: stick to viny. No variable bit rate there.

:D

[Audio Al]

Must say when David asked if I would like a listen to his rather wonderfull :eyebrows: system I was expecting something rather special , After listening to The working hour by TFF via the internet I dreaded the track ending and being asked " Well what do you think " :eek:

And being a honest man :) I gave my opinion :( not favarable . David started telling why it souned somewhat lacking , This digital mumbo jumbo goes over my head so did not realy understand . Thats why 99% of my listening is good old fashond black vinyl :).

I was very envious of Davids system :eyebrows: with the lovely Canterbury Tannoys :eyebrows:

Since owning the Toshiba DVD/CD player SD-9500 , My views on streaming have changed slightly as the Toshiba has Tosser link :D I think thats what its called ( Or is that me ? :) ) Optical in and out , I decide to listen to TOTO Africa , I have this on vinyl and CD and the youtube version sounded bloody amazing :eek: Full bodied rich and luscious :eek:

[Edward]

David, which actual tracks did you find were sounding rubbish? Perhaps someone who has Qobuz can see if it is also rubbish on their system.

[AD Audio]

Tears for Fears the working hour is terrible in Qobuz a bit better in Tidal tried on two DACs

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[Macca]

I really doubt this is an issue, especially for those with fibre connections. Even with High Res digital streaming the bandwidth requirements are fairly modest. With typical download speeds of 30mb or more for fibre the bandwidth would have to be reduced massively to affect SQ.

Indeed. if you can stream video then a file of music is nothing by comparison.

This is one of the problems with streaming services, you are totally at the mercy of whatever they decide to send you. Could be good, could be bad but you have zero control over it.

[JohnG]

I am intending on setting up a Digital replay device, mainly for the extension of a source in the system, and the convenience that is available through having access to it.
I would very much enjoy the house filled with music without having to contantly attend the system, the interactions can be kept for those special sessions, where the ritual of being tactile with the system and seeing the devices at work, adds to the moment.
After a year of reading and a few listening experiences, carried out at peoples homes and events, I have yet to discover a replay that has sent me to a 'must have one' place in relation to SQ, I always like the idea of one when I see the user interface and its ease.
I once remember enquiring how did you get that CD put onto your computer :mental:, things have evolved a bit in my IT Skills since then.
None of these experiences have deterred me from going this route, but they may have made me take my foot of the gas pedal, and be more enquiring.
I can relate to reports of disatisfaction when heaing a replay, as I have strong recollections
from a similar experience, where I have heard tracks I am familiar with played through streaming on a 'Convert Technologies Tempus' and I did not get the experience I was anticipating, especialy when the rest of the system, was getting close to a 100K retail.
I will say that there was a impression that did leave a good memory, and tha was when I heard it presenting CD's, I was very captured by this, that experience is about 16 months old now, and I can't recall how the CD and Tempus were hooked up.
Shortly after this experience, I was invited to listen to Stacked Quads, matched to 0.5db,rebuilt with OTA parts and OTEC 2 Treble Panels, being driven by Valve Amps.
I was much more confident I was in a familar place as I am a dyed in the wool Quad 57 user with Valve Amps.
This was a harder to absorb experience, as I felt the 57's really wanted to sing, but were in my mind on a leash, I was rightly or wrongly associating this with the Streamer, I can't recall the brand, but I recall it was about £600.
I am not in any way suggesting, that the modern Computer Bases Audio is inferior, over 30 years I have not been satisfied with many presentations from a variety of systems and devices.
At present I am hovering around the idea, that it will take time and committment to investigations of the Devices used as a Source for suplying the Media, to get to a position where a satisfactory replay, for my ears is to be discovered, I am very close with both Vinyl and CD, so I have great confidence Computer Based Audio will show itself and be included in the system as a source in the near future.
Seeing as 80-90% of my listening is done through a Laptop and Bluetooth Speaker, I think I am very much involved in Computer Audio at present.

[struth]

You wont get any better than an rpi and one of the allo devices(depends on if you own a dac as to which one) considering the outlay which isnt terribly expensive, and although stand alone this is very good, it gets better if used in conjunction with Audirvana on your pc/mac. A fastish pc is preferable here. But even using an rpi with just a tablet as a control device you will be happy. You will be able to use your own music/and or something like tidal too. volumio2 is imo the easiest and best system for rpi.

[struth]

Tears for Fears the working hour is terrible in Qobuz a bit better in Tidal tried on two DACs

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Listening on my cans I cant really hear any difference between tidal and qobuz on that track tbh. Not that I know how its supposed to sound but its not a very good recording to my ears.

[AD Audio]

Listening on my cans I cant really hear any difference between tidal and qobuz on that track tbh. Not that I know how its supposed to sound but its not a very good recording to my ears.

I did a direct comparison last night and agree. Both sound the same and are flat and lifeless compared to a decent 16/44 recording. My DAC which is not always reliable in this regard doesn't light up the 16/44 light which generally means a lower bit rate. But whatever it is, as Audio Al attests, it's nothing like the original CD quality

[struth]

most likely taken from cd so it may be pish too. anyone got it?

[Audio Al]

I did a direct comparison last night and agree. Both sound the same and are flat and lifeless compared to a decent 16/44 recording. My DAC which is not always reliable in this regard doesn't light up the 16/44 light which generally means a lower bit rate. But whatever it is, as Audio Al attests, it's nothing like the original CD quality

Or Vinyl :)

[Edward]

Prompted by this thread I tried out different versions. I don't have the vinyl version nor do I have Quboz.

Essentially what I found is that the original CD version released 1985 is better than the various versions floating around that are based on a remaster done in 2014. Locally I have the 1985 version and a 24/96 version based on the 2014 remaster. On Tidal there are 4 versions with 1 version based on 1985 cut and the remaining being different collections with 1 in MQA format based on the 24/96 2014 cut.

Whoever did the 2014 remaster should feel shame.

[Pigmy Pony]

I have the original vinyl pressing, and always thought it to be an excellent recording, although a little light in the bass.

[AD Audio]

Interesting. I think the answer is you don't really know what you're getting with streaming. When I used Qobuz for mainly jazz and classical I was happy with the SQ through my main system but totally hacked off with its App on phone or computer which never worked properly. But the Tears for Fears experience just showed me that there's a lot of stuff there of non CD quality.

I've been using Tidal for a few days now. Its functionality is much better, and the Apps and Web player work properly on everything and I love its suggested playlists. However, for general listening I don't think SQ is particularly good. I will try further on jazz and classics
David

[Bigman80]

I'm new to this digital malarky, mainly because it's never come closer to Vinyl. However, do as Grant said and buy an Allo Boss 1.2, Isolator 1.2 and RPI 3+. Stick Volumio on it and use your laptop/pc as a NAS.

I am being 100% honest when I say this, and it hurts to do so BUT......

It is beating my vinyl in all areas. I can't believe it and I hate that it does but, it does.

I'm just about to add a second linear PSU to mine and then it'll be an upgrade to either a PicanPi or Katana. The SP10 May even get sold.

Its a mad mad world and this Allo gear is taking the piss IMO.



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[Sherwood]

I am a late convert to digital. In the early days much if not most digital sounded dreadful (to me). I reluctantly adopted digital out of necessity: working overseas and travelling extensively, it was far easier to transport my music on a hard disc, and vinyl is not suited to hot, humid and dusty environments.

I have been interested in recent comments about the "variability" of digital sources and the perceived differences in the quality of different streaming sources. In recent years, I have switched from Spotify to Tidal, having briefly tried Qobuz. I am very pleased with the quality of Tidal and have had no real problems with any recordings.

However, it strikes me that many people have forgotten about the variability of vinyl. Most of my vinyl was acquired in the 20 year period from the mid 70s onwards. I was born and raised in central London so in the early years, most of my records were purchased in the large HMV, Virgin and Tower Record stores in the West End. Even though these stores carried a lot of stock, it was often difficult to find a pristine copy of an album in the racks due to the heavy handed attention of "browsers". Even when a decent copy could be found, it was not uncommon for the pressing to be warped or to sound very poor. Fortunately, most "naff" pressings could be returned for a replacement, though often the replacement sounded as bad if not worse than the original copy. When my studies and job took me "Up North" I would often find great difficulties in finding a good pressing as the shops were much smaller and carried less stock. Some stores would only put the covers out on display which rendered them much more vulnerable to creasing and other mistreatment. More annoyingly, many stores would play the vinyl for sale on dreadful turntables with sales staff leaving greasy paw prints over the discs. These smaller stores were also much less inclined to replace a faulty disc.

Digital has come a long way since the mid 80's. I still find it difficult to reconcile myself how good modern DACs and streamers are and how affordable they have become.

Geoff

[AD Audio]

I'm new to this digital malarky, mainly because it's never come closer to Vinyl. However, do as Grant said and buy an Allo Boss 1.2, Isolator 1.2 and RPI 3+. Stick Volumio on it and use your laptop/pc as a NAS.

I am being 100% honest when I say this, and it hurts to do so BUT......

It is beating my vinyl in all areas. I can't believe it and I hate that it does but, it does.

I'm just about to add a second linear PSU to mine and then it'll be an upgrade to either a PicanPi or Katana. The SP10 May even get sold.

Its a mad mad world and this Allo gear is taking the piss IMO.



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Thanks but it's not a DAC issue, it's a streaming one. My own brand top of the range DAC does exactly what you say your set up does and and has been very favourably reviewed by those who've heard it. But that means I'm back to buying and ripping or downloading files not enjoying the modern browsing /functionality experience. My DAC actually uses the Allo Kali reclocker which is part of the secret of its outstanding SQ

[montesquieu]

I am a late convert to digital. In the early days much if not most digital sounded dreadful (to me). I reluctantly adopted digital out of necessity: working overseas and travelling extensively, it was far easier to transport my music on a hard disc, and vinyl is not suited to hot, humid and dusty environments.

I have been interested in recent comments about the "variability" of digital sources and the perceived differences in the quality of different streaming sources. In recent years, I have switched from Spotify to Tidal, having briefly tried Qobuz. I am very pleased with the quality of Tidal and have had no real problems with any recordings.

However, it strikes me that many people have forgotten about the variability of vinyl. Most of my vinyl was acquired in the 20 year period from the mid 70s onwards. I was born and raised in central London so in the early years, most of my records were purchased in the large HMV, Virgin and Tower Record stores in the West End. Even though these stores carried a lot of stock, it was often difficult to find a pristine copy of an album in the racks due to the heavy handed attention of "browsers". Even when a decent copy could be found, it was not uncommon for the pressing to be warped or to sound very poor. Fortunately, most "naff" pressings could be returned for a replacement, though often the replacement sounded as bad if not worse than the original copy. When my studies and job took me "Up North" I would often find great difficulties in finding a good pressing as the shops were much smaller and carried less stock. Some stores would only put the covers out on display which rendered them much more vulnerable to creasing and other mistreatment. More annoyingly, many stores would play the vinyl for sale on dreadful turntables with sales staff leaving greasy paw prints over the discs. These smaller stores were also much less inclined to replace a faulty disc.

Digital has come a long way since the mid 80's. I still find it difficult to reconcile myself how good modern DACs and streamers are and how affordable they have become.

Geoff

Unfortunately a lot of this grief with vinyl quality still exists, I've actually had more hassle in recent years with brand new reissues than with stuff bought from second hand vinyl stores. I've had the same record back from Amazon three times and given up.

Much of the problem back then could have been sorted if people had been equipped, as many more enthusiasts are now, with decent record cleaning equipment - the issue was sometimes pressing but more often the fingerprints and general bad handling you mention, plus dust acquired in the retail process.

But in the classical world, where the dynamic range tends to be higher than other genres, duff pressings make more of an impact in the quiet passages and it's unsurprising that it was the classical market that drove early digital. (Contrary to the experience in 1980s hifi stores where it sometimes seemed that Phil Collins, Sade and Dire Straits made the only CDs ever to be issued).

Having said that, it's long been my experience that good clean vinyl on a decent system still shows a clean pair of heels to - essentially - ANY digital for engagement and enjoyment, but only above a certain level of vinyl performance. There's no doubt that for the same money you can acquire a digital system that will outperform vinyl by quite a margin and the entry point for decent digital continues to plummet in price.

It's certainly not a given that vinyl sounds better, indeed I've had a couple of non-hifi mates decide to get back into vinyl from having been all digital after visiting my place, only to be disappointed. I haven't the heart to tell them what it costs to emulate what they just heard.