Guide to Improving Your System

[Macca]

Thought I'd start this to see what people's thoughts and or methods are. Is there even a method?

Here's mine:

1) The Different Strokes Rule -- simply put 'What might be right for you might not be right for some.' -there's no best component or cable or stand or whatever.

There's no league table or hierarchy. 'I had X component and I replaced it with Y component and I much prefer the sound so Y component will be better than X component in any system and for anyone.'

No it won't.

Brings us to

2) Have an idea of the sort of sound you want to get. Play Thin Lizzy's 'Live and Dangerous' on cd through some ATC active speakers now play the same album on vinyl through Avantgarde horns with single ended Kondo valve amps - pretty much chalk and cheese. Some will prefer one, some the other. Some might hate both presentations.

Personally I think my idea of how a hi-fi system should present music was formed by the infamous 'mate's dad's systems' when I was in my teens so I've been after that ever since. I only realised that a couple of years ago. But even now hearing lots of other systems can give you an idea of what you are after. Or refine it. Without any idea what to go after you're pissing in the wind.


3) Don't try to solve fundamental problems like hardness, harshness, distortion, with ancillaries like stands, cables, room treatment, conditioners, magic beans or any of that stuff. It won't work. Get the basics right first then you can muck about with all that stuff if you still feel the need. Which you might not.


4) If it isn't sounding like you want don't jump to conclusions about what the problem is. Harsh treble is probably not the speakers. Lack of bass is probably not the amplifier. Things are often not what they seem to be in hi-fi land, very easy to change or 'upgrade' the wrong thing and make a bigger and more expensive mess. Most of us must have done this at least once. I've done it loads.


5) The fancier it gets the harder it is to get it just right. Sort of the 'Peter Principle' of hi-fi. 'Given infinite upgrading every system will one day reach the point were it is unlistenable.'

There's no real solution to that one except to stop when you're happy.


6) Have fun. It's supposed to be a hobby. Or a pastime.

Whatever, it beats being at work.

[walpurgis]

Don't try to solve fundamental problems like hardness, harshness, distortion, with ancillaries like stands, cables, room treatment, conditioners, magic beans or any of that stuff. It won't work. Get the basics right first then you can muck about with all that stuff if you still feel the need. Which you might not.

Exactly!

[Pigmy Pony]

O wise man of The Potteries, we're not worthy! :)

All pretty obvious when you see it written down, but it's funny how easily we can lose sight of these fundamentals. Your post should be printed on the packaging of Hi fi components and accessories, like the health warnings on fag packets, to remind us.

[Macca]

Yeah - not saying it isn't obvious to anyone with a bit of experience but that's not everyone who is reading this. I'd have been a lot better off if I'd read that in a hi fi mag back when I was starting out.

[Pigmy Pony]

I'd made an assumption that it would be obvious to everyone else - if I'm honest it wasn't obvious to me until just now.

[Primalsea]

I would say go to events like bake-offs and Kegworth and listen to other peoples genuine honest systems in order to get some perpspective. You won’t get this from commercial shows unless you already really know what you want.

There is loads of good information available on the web and in publications but there is also a lot of information that is there to get you chasing someone else’s ideals, not your own. Beware!

Just sit back listen to some music and spend some time moving your speakers about and trying different tyes of mounting such as isolation, rubber feet, spikes, blu tac, etc. Chances are you can eek a bit more out of your system without spending any money.

Often what your are listening to is your room more than your hifi system. Try to get your room as right as it can be.

Don’t believe every opinion that you read online...

[Pharos]

I have settled on being unhappy with my sound, because I think that it is revealing nasties in the sources more than before, and my aspiration to 'get to reality' persists. But finding the source of the unpleasantness is not easy, an improvement in Hi-Fi can sound worse.

I do think that early in our lives as we develop, there are 'perfect moments' of revelation and ecstasy, and that these imprint us, we seeking to replicate that thereafter. The same applies to having lovely food for the fist time as a child; the best chocolate cake, or the best strawberries for example - you don't forget it.

Yes, as it gets better, the presentation is a major difference in the sound rather than any obvious 'this is better'.

[joolz]

+1

[joolz]

I would say go to events like bake-offs and Kegworth and listen to other peoples genuine honest systems in order to get some perpspective. You won’t get this from commercial shows unless you already really know what you want.

There is loads of good information available on the web and in publications but there is also a lot of information that is there to get you chasing someone else’s ideals, not your own. Beware!

Just sit back listen to some music and spend some time moving your speakers about and trying different tyes of mounting such as isolation, rubber feet, spikes, blu tac, etc. Chances are you can eek a bit more out of your system without spending any money.

Often what your are listening to is your room more than your hifi system. Try to get your room as right as it can be.

Don’t believe every opinion that you read online...


+1

[goraman]

Start buy listening to a lot of speakers, buy the ones you like even if it means getting a fat loan.
Then build your system to suit the sensitivity and need ability to drive them to levels that make you happy.
If they are 4 ,6 or 8 ohm, 84db at 1 meter or 105 db. 1 meter amp choice is important.
Then choose a really good source. When everything else is how you want it, then upgrade cables , dead last.
Upgrade every part inside every component till you have spent 3x more than its full retail price in upgrades alone.
After your happy.
Then change speakers and everything else up stream all over again, same order as before.

Repeat process till death.:lol:

[CliveG]

There's no real solution to that one except to stop when you're happy.




That's the hardest thing to do when you are addicted to this hobby.
I got a used vintage cartridge last week, (it came with a tonearm I'd bought) and I was astounded how good it sounded when I first tried it. I have since spent the last few days applying my years of experience and knowledge to getting the best out of it, by fiddling with alignment, headshell, leads, VTA, VTF etc. The result is it now sounds distinctly average. If only I could learn to leave things alone when I am happy.:doh:

[Macca]

That's the hardest thing to do when you are addicted to this hobby.
I got a used vintage cartridge last week, (it came with a tonearm I'd bought) and I was astounded how good it sounded when I first tried it. I have since spent the last few days applying my years of experience and knowledge to getting the best out of it, by fiddling with alignment, headshell, leads, VTA, VTF etc. The result is it now sounds distinctly average. If only I could learn to leave things alone when I am happy.:doh:

LOL thus demonstrating my proposition in the o/p 'Given infinite upgrading every system will one day reach the point were it is unlistenable.'

[Yomanze]

Agree that taste rules supreme, but there is a base level of “good” that most would appreciate.

Also agree that the money should be going into components, and not wires and tweaks. A £1000 pair of cables is never going to make as much of a difference as investing that money elsewhere in main components.

Floor types matter. If the room has suspended wooden flooring then decoupling speakers and components is a good idea, with clear benefits (especially to the neighbours). Concrete not as important.

Synergy is key, what will work great in one system might not in another.

Try a (well implemented) true multibit DAC and see if you hear or like a difference. Digital *can* sound analogue. :D

Back off a bit and don’t chase the last ounce, because really we want to:

Enjoy the music.

[Puffin]

I do think that early in our lives as we develop, there are 'perfect moments' of revelation and ecstasy, and that these imprint us, we seeking to replicate that.

I went to many Heathrow Hifi shows in the 90s. There were two rooms that left a permanent impression on me. One was a massive room with a vinyl system using Kef floorstanders. They were the ones with the large hole in the front and the two opposing bass units coupled with a rod down the middle (someone help me out with the model No!) They were playing Walk Between the Raindrops from the Donald Fagen Nightfly album. The speakers were sat in the middle of this vast room and Fagen and Co were right there, the music coming from anywhere but the speakers.

The second was a fairly small room with some PA lookalike speakers from ATC, hanging from the ceiling (they may have been active). Visceral slam and.... bass...Bass! as hard as a.....well very hard thing. I have had a system that used some Jamo Professional's with 15" bass units that I really liked....I got rid of the Jamo's as I kept thinking.....well...these aren't really Hifi. Dickhead:rolleyes:

[Barry]

That's the hardest thing to do when you are addicted to this hobby.
I got a used vintage cartridge last week, (it came with a tonearm I'd bought) and I was astounded how good it sounded when I first tried it. I have since spent the last few days applying my years of experience and knowledge to getting the best out of it, by fiddling with alignment, headshell, leads, VTA, VTF etc. The result is it now sounds distinctly average. If only I could learn to leave things alone when I am happy.:doh:

Are you not able to return to the status quo? That is arrange everything as it was when you first tried the cartridge. If it is the cartridge I think it is I would follow the manufacturere's recommendation for VTF, have the arm tube exactly parallel to the record, and don't faff about with heashell leads. When you have done that, then you can experiment with making only the very smallest of changes to VTA.

[Primalsea]

I went to many Heathrow Hifi shows in the 90s. There were two rooms that left a permanent impression on me. One was a massive room with a vinyl system using Kef floorstanders. They were the ones with the large hole in the front and the two opposing bass units coupled with a rod down the middle (someone help me out with the model No!) They were playing Walk Between the Raindrops from the Donald Fagen Nightfly album. The speakers were sat in the middle of this vast room and Fagen and Co were right there, the music coming from anywhere but the speakers.

The second was a fairly small room with some PA lookalike speakers from ATC, hanging from the ceiling (they may have been active). Visceral slam and.... bass...Bass! as hard as a.....well very hard thing. I have had a system that used some Jamo Professional's with 15" bass units that I really liked....I got rid of the Jamo's as I kept thinking.....well...these aren't really Hifi. Dickhead:rolleyes:

The speakers sound like theu may have been the 104/2 Reference.

I was thinking the other day about the really high end systems where people have spent half a million quid or more. I wondered if the actual performance of these systems is mainly from the engineering of the equipment or if mostly because if you are that wealthy you are likely to have a huge house with a huge room. At that price point speakers tend to be huge and easily fill the space with music while still being away from any walls. The listening position will likely be away from any walls too. Also the volume levels are likely to be higher too.

[CliveG]

Are you not able to return to the status quo? That is arrange everything as it was when you first tried the cartridge. If it is the cartridge I think it is I would follow the manufacturere's recommendation for VTF, have the arm tube exactly parallel to the record, and don't faff about with heashell leads. When you have done that, then you can experiment with making only the very smallest of changes to VTA.
Yes it is the Ikeda and you are absolutely right. I realised I had to stop fiddling and take a break or frustration and impatience was going to lead to an accident. I have since discovered the headshell is defective and not parallel to the arm tube, which was not helping things. Now awaiting arrival of new headshell.

[mayebaza]

I'd think I would add decide wiether your a music or sound person. You will be able to choose which options you can live with much easier. In the end their is always something you have to comprimise.

[Haselsh1]

Really interesting you mention Thin Lizzy and active in the same sentence. Back around 1982 I heard a Crimson Electric active system into Mission speakers with the music of the day and at that point it was the most dynamic thing I had ever heard. Later I heard a Linn active system and it was breath taking. Later still I heard a Naim active system and it was truly bloody awful.

How I ever ended up with valve amps and mini monitors I'll never understand.

I still toy with the idea of active studio monitors.

Meat and poison it is then lol

[Haselsh1]

Paul, I used to use Samson Servo 600 power amps for the gutsy slam and punch but always ended up thinking it's not hi-fi. I now have a system that has the most incredible midrange and delicacy but guess what..? No slam, no real dynamism and no real spine tingling moments. But it is hi-fi.

;)

[Joe]

Thought I'd start this to see what people's thoughts and or methods are. Is there even a method?

Here's mine:

1) The Different Strokes Rule -- simply put 'What might be right for you might not be right for some.' -there's no best component or cable or stand or whatever.

There's no league table or hierarchy. 'I had X component and I replaced it with Y component and I much prefer the sound so Y component will be better than X component in any system and for anyone.'

No it won't.

Brings us to

2) Have an idea of the sort of sound you want to get. Play Thin Lizzy's 'Live and Dangerous' on cd through some ATC active speakers now play the same album on vinyl through Avantgarde horns with single ended Kondo valve amps - pretty much chalk and cheese. Some will prefer one, some the other. Some might hate both presentations.

Personally I think my idea of how a hi-fi system should present music was formed by the infamous 'mate's dad's systems' when I was in my teens so I've been after that ever since. I only realised that a couple of years ago. But even now hearing lots of other systems can give you an idea of what you are after. Or refine it. Without any idea what to go after you're pissing in the wind.


3) Don't try to solve fundamental problems like hardness, harshness, distortion, with ancillaries like stands, cables, room treatment, conditioners, magic beans or any of that stuff. It won't work. Get the basics right first then you can muck about with all that stuff if you still feel the need. Which you might not.


4) If it isn't sounding like you want don't jump to conclusions about what the problem is. Harsh treble is probably not the speakers. Lack of bass is probably not the amplifier. Things are often not what they seem to be in hi-fi land, very easy to change or 'upgrade' the wrong thing and make a bigger and more expensive mess. Most of us must have done this at least once. I've done it loads.


5) The fancier it gets the harder it is to get it just right. Sort of the 'Peter Principle' of hi-fi. 'Given infinite upgrading every system will one day reach the point were it is unlistenable.'

There's no real solution to that one except to stop when you're happy.


6) Have fun. It's supposed to be a hobby. Or a pastime.

Whatever, it beats being at work.

7) When you've got a system you're happy with, stop reading the mags, posting on forums, going to hifi shows. Or lose all your money betting on horses, so you won't be able to 'upgrade'.

[Macca]

Or lose all your money betting on horses, so you won't be able to 'upgrade'.

I can vouch from experience that does work. And quite quickly, too.

[Pigmy Pony]

Really interesting you mention Thin Lizzy and active in the same sentence. Back around 1982 I heard a Crimson Electric active system into Mission speakers with the music of the day and at that point it was the most dynamic thing I had ever heard. Later I heard a Linn active system and it was breath taking. Later still I heard a Naim active system and it was truly bloody awful.

How I ever ended up with valve amps and mini monitors I'll never understand.

I still toy with the idea of active studio monitors.

Meat and poison it is then lol

Didn't you end up with mini monitors because you moved to somewhere little? :D

Have you heard the Dutch+Dutch 8C speakers Shaun? Compact active speakers with DSP, inbuilt DAC's and subs, and have some proper clout. Really impressed me at Cranage last year, and I reckon you'd like 'em too. Pricey though.

[Mikeandvan]

I'm glad I got off the Naim bus, it amuses the hell out of me reading the Naim forum, no matter what your issue is, the answer is always to buy something else or get something serviced....My relatively humble system is the best its ever sounded, thanks mostly to a chance find of a pair of speakers I'd never even heard of sold by Jerry of this forum, the Chario Syntars, just goes to show how much stuff there is out there that people are unaware of. Before that I'd tried the usual suspects - Naim credo, Epos es11, and the weirdest speakers I'd ever heard Spendor mini monitors, I also tried Spendor floorstanders, and they were just slightly less bad than the monitors!! Like listening to a tinny little radio!! Though some people love them, so I guess its all system/room dependent. It can be difficult but ignore the hype, I can't believe how good my system now sounds with a £25 passive pre and a little Quad power amp!! My tastes in music have changed a bit, I used to listen to a lot of rock, where the finer details are less important, but now I get a real kick out of hearing a bass drum on a jazz record, or soul music sounding really sweet. I think its only when you start to get your system right, that you realise how much we actually love music, as I was starting to lose interest in it. Bought some new records today for the first time in a while, more 70s jazz, there's not much better than jazz to show what a decent hifi can do.

I haven't played much rock music at all since moving to the Charios, and I think my system has lost a bit of edge in that respect, but there we go, I've love to have 2 systems, but I live in a one bed flat, so that's never gonna happen!! Strangely after trying streaming I really can't be bothered with it, I find putting on a cd much easier.

Turntable wise I tried a few, I loved the Technics 1210 for its looks and ease of use, but my humble NAS Interspace was the first TT that actually showed me something proper, real dynamics, which it has to be said, can be slightly overwhelming on some of my livelier techno records. But again my tastes have mellowed. And I've found a cart that I'm happy with - the Nagaoka MP200, after much forum searching lead me to the Nags, so here at least the hype was deserved. I'm not one for super expensive carts as I had one once - a £400 AT (expensive by my standards), and I broke it within a few days, horrible. The Nags replacement carts are a massive bargain at £100 direct from Japan, so breaking them isn't that much of a downer!! I like my hifi simple and cannot be arsed with things like record weights and the like!!

[Firebottle]

Good post Mike :thumbsup:

[Hoffer]

I don't disagree with any of the comments, but I'll add a few more:

1. To the extent possible, get your room right first. I'm not suggesting you spend a ton a $$$ - but sometimes even small tweaks can make a difference. Move those speakers out a little, focus on your listening position, put some shades on those windows, etc., etc. It's not always the answer, but it can never hurt.

2. Give your ears time to adjust. To me, it's not much different to listening to a new album. I need a number of listening sessions before I can firmly judge anything.

3. Keep a core rotation of music that you like to sample. I always bring with me the same albums/discs whenever I want to audition something. Although it's not a perfect test (nothing is, of course), it at least gives me a baseline of music that I'm so familiar with I can rely more on what my ears are telling me.