View Full Version : Pros and cons of Subs
Having moved to a much bigger space i find my self thinking about using a subwoofer . I previously used B&W 602s and when i changed them for AVI neutrons the one thing i missed was that extra octave of bass.
A certain magazine i bought back in my early days of HI FI encouraged the use of subwoofers when using monitor speakers but ive since heard thats a risky route for two channel music and if you do try it you should go for Rel but i have no idea why. I would be interested in any opinions from AOS members
magiccarpetride
10-05-2010, 23:38
Having moved to a much bigger space i find my self thinking about using a subwoofer . I previously used B&W 602s and when i changed them for AVI neutrons the one thing i missed was that extra octave of bass.
A certain magazine i bought back in my early days of HI FI encouraged the use of subwoofers when using monitor speakers but ive since heard thats a risky route for two channel music and if you do try it you should go for Rel but i have no idea why. I would be interested in any opinions from AOS members
I am using Magneplanar speakers which are probably the fastest speakers ever built. The only problem with these is that they tend to taper off in frequencies lower than 42 Hz. To remedy that, some people have tried throwing in a subwoofer or two. But that didn't really work, because there hasn't been built a subwoofer that could match Magneplanars' speed (not even close), and so you end up with a solution that is painfully out of phase.
Not sure what the subwoofer downsides are for other types of speakers, but looks like whatever speakers you're using, the subwoofers must be made to match their speed. Otherwise, you get things sounding kind of odd.
Tony Moore
11-05-2010, 07:34
Hi Colin,
The Rels have a fantastic filter circuit that allows you to tune the cutoff point very accurately to match in with your main speakers.
I have a Rel Q100E that I've had up for sale on here for a while. I used to use it with my old Ruark Talisman 2s to give extra depth (plus also for movies as it also has a low level input to take the LFE output from a DVD player) but since I built some IPL S5Tls I don't use it as they have bass enough! Plus I have limited room available now.
The Rel has a 100W mosfet amp and a 12" driver and it's pretty fast I have to say!
Cheers,
Tony
Why not build a dipole sub. Lots of speed very clean bass and easy to intergrate into the 2 channel music system it wouldl be more musical than any sub I can think off.
Beobloke
11-05-2010, 12:16
Subwoofer Pros
- You get more bass!
- You don't have to have two huge wardrobes in your room to obtain that bass
Subwoofer Cons
- Many subwoofers out there are truly hopeless with music and just boom and thump away to anything put through them.
- It's not just a case of plonk the sub in the corner, switch it on and forget about it. They need to be properly positioned (and don't EVER put one in a corner!) and this can negate the advantage of not needing the two huge boxes as invariably where the sub looks nicest and most visually acceptable ain't where it's going to sound best.
- Setup is more complex that you'd think. Generally people set their subwoofers too loud - if you can clearly hear it then it's turned up too much. A sub crossover point needs to be precisely set to avoid a bass hump or suckout and the volume should be set to a level such that it's just below the point where you can hear it doing its stuff. Many people then cry "What's the point of having it at all?" but if you run it like this for a week or so, then try the system with it switched off, you'll be surprised at the difference.
- The best way to implement a sub is to have one for each channel, thus doubling the cost and the box count.
All in all, I am certainly not anti-subwoofer and, with care, a decent model peoperly set up can work very well indeed. That said, I'd still take a full size pair of speakers every time, given the choice.
AVI Neutrons (all of them) have a great mid and treble region and it's worth persevering getting a decent sub (or two, as said above) to go with them..
As said above, many subs, including many REL's surprisingly, just thump and boom away in a totally tuneless manner. many years ago, I loved the little M&K ones, which just fleshed out the bottom octaves enough to increase realism IMO.
Maggies fast? I prefer good electrostatics myself as they're not as response-wayward or inefficient. I've not heard the very latest Maggies though.
Finally, don't write off the AVI sub for the ADM's. It's been designed for MUSIC, the box is imported so should be cheap and enable more of the budget to be spent on the driver, which is a 10" type with humongous magnet on the back. The amp pack is UK made IIRC.
Ali Tait
11-05-2010, 13:50
I am using Magneplanar speakers which are probably the fastest speakers ever built. The only problem with these is that they tend to taper off in frequencies lower than 42 Hz. To remedy that, some people have tried throwing in a subwoofer or two. But that didn't really work, because there hasn't been built a subwoofer that could match Magneplanars' speed (not even close), and so you end up with a solution that is painfully out of phase.
Not sure what the subwoofer downsides are for other types of speakers, but looks like whatever speakers you're using, the subwoofers must be made to match their speed. Otherwise, you get things sounding kind of odd.
Hi Alex,
Are Maggies faster than statics? If so,how?
Subwoofer Pros
- You get more bass!
- You don't have to have two huge wardrobes in your room to obtain that bass
Subwoofer Cons
- Many subwoofers out there are truly hopeless with music and just boom and thump away to anything put through them.
- It's not just a case of plonk the sub in the corner, switch it on and forget about it. They need to be properly positioned (and don't EVER put one in a corner!) and this can negate the advantage of not needing the two huge boxes as invariably where the sub looks nicest and most visually acceptable ain't where it's going to sound best.
- Setup is more complex that you'd think. Generally people set their subwoofers too loud - if you can clearly hear it then it's turned up too much. A sub crossover point needs to be precisely set to avoid a bass hump or suckout and the volume should be set to a level such that it's just below the point where you can hear it doing its stuff. Many people then cry "What's the point of having it at all?" but if you run it like this for a week or so, then try the system with it switched off, you'll be surprised at the difference.
- The best way to implement a sub is to have one for each channel, thus doubling the cost and the box count.
All in all, I am certainly not anti-subwoofer and, with care, a decent model peoperly set up can work very well indeed. That said, I'd still take a full size pair of speakers every time, given the choice.
+100 Awesome advice!
I always knew that if I got into sub-woofers I would need 2 of them and they would need to be located in strategically in-convenient locations. So I stick with Towers. I love my Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs, but with the Behringer amp that I recently introduced to my system, My dual 8" with a bass port speakers are getting a serious hurting from the Behringer:)
CD
Covenant
11-05-2010, 15:11
In my AV system I use a Velodyne DD15 to supplement 5 Quad speakers and 2 Orb surrounds. I chose the Velodyne because you can plonk it where you want. It has a test microphone you put in the centre of your listening space and an on-screen display which you tune to your room/furniture. This means, in my case that the sub can be hidden away between a wall and settee.
magiccarpetride
11-05-2010, 16:45
Hi Alex,
Are Maggies faster than statics? If so,how?
Theoretically no, but it's just my subjective assessment, as I never get to hear the crossover in Maggies. Because these speakers are monolithic by design, all the frequency bands get served by the Maggies in a single breath, so to speak. And that's what so breathtaking about them. It's one giant surface vibrating and pushing air.
Ali Tait
11-05-2010, 17:15
Aye,same as my statics then.Except I guess the diaphragm in my statics is lighter and therefore faster than the Maggies? How are they constructed?
I think that if you chose carefully and spend time to integrate a sub properly they are indispensible. I have monster horns and use 3 subs in a fairly small room, each tuned to a specific frequency and the phase is crucial. Get it right and you will never want to get rid of them.
Wow lots of interesting different points of view. I would be very interested in a dedicated sub from AVI but as far as i know both the neutron sub and the ADM one come with built in amplifier and DAC which i dont need.
It all sounds a bit tricky to set up but theres always the room analyzer that a lot of people made a fuss about last year. You get a usb microphone and download the software and it helps you position the boxes. Dont know how good it is.
magiccarpetride
11-05-2010, 17:51
Aye,same as my statics then.Except I guess the diaphragm in my statics is lighter and therefore faster than the Maggies? How are they constructed?
No, statics are lighter and faster, no doubt, but what's with that bulge at the bottom?
Im not sure what a di pole sub is or a isobaric sub? Saw a picture on e bay of Neat petits sitting on isobaric Gravitas. They looked huge though!
Bass is so very room dependent that separating bass from mid/treble is often a good thing. You can optimise the position of the main speakers to give great mid and tune the subs to give good bass. Corner positioning can work with subs, indeed there are various papers that discuss this and show it to work well. Driving the room with at least two subs is tons better than one. Setting up subs well is not easy but it is vital. You can certainly get full range speakers to work well but this more depends on the room.
I dont have a problem with sticking a sub in the middle of the room if thats the best position as im a single man with no room aesthetic restrictions:)
Secondly do you have any idea if the XTZ room analyzer is a good tool for setting a sub?
Ali Tait
11-05-2010, 20:30
No, statics are lighter and faster, no doubt, but what's with that bulge at the bottom?
Que?
I dont have a problem with sticking a sub in the middle of the room if thats the best position as im a single man with no room aesthetic restrictions:)
Secondly do you have any idea if the XTZ room analyzer is a good tool for setting a sub?
I use the XTZ RA with their DSP amps. BTW 2 subs are much better than one because one sub will excite certain frequencies in the room, a 2nd one will work on different frequencies. Spreading the effect helps greatly.
magiccarpetride
11-05-2010, 20:45
Que?
http://www.martinlogan.com/images/trim/speaker/summit_x_nat_cherry_black_alu.jpg
Wow lots of interesting different points of view. I would be very interested in a dedicated sub from AVI but as far as i know both the neutron sub and the ADM one come with built in amplifier and DAC which i dont need.
It all sounds a bit tricky to set up but theres always the room analyzer that a lot of people made a fuss about last year. You get a usb microphone and download the software and it helps you position the boxes. Dont know how good it is.
The ADM sub can be used with anything and it's only the neutron sub that comes with DAC and amps (the ADM Dac's are in the speakers).
I've seen the ADM cabinet elsewhere, but AVI themselves choose the driver to go inside and they make the fully adjustable amp section too. Of all the cheaper subs about (under a grand each), I'd seriously consider a punt on this one, rolling it away above 70Hz or so and setting the level at a gentle level so it doesn't swamp the Neutrons..
Did I mention M&K? Even their cheapest one from a few years ago was great with music..
Look at the Zingalli sub useing 8 inch drivers there very fast so is the Yamaha YST150 if my memory is correct its a horn loaded dual 8 inch 150 watt sub. Not much there over 30hz. but it is very fast.It's strong then dumps of at 30 to 25hz. pretty fast but punchy WOW! I sometimes miss it even though the Epos goe's a bit lower.
I have the Epos sub but I'm not sure if it's fast enough for electrostates.
Here is a link about dipole bass
http://www.surfnetusa.com/sho/BBContent/BBBass.html
Here is a link about dipole bass
http://www.surfnetusa.com/sho/BBContent/BBBass.html
I use active dipole bass on my open baffles and really enjoy how drums and bass are portrayed
I agree with John's advice on dipole bass.
My thoughts are that your best chances for a fast bass are with dipole and sealed bass enclosures. My experience of various reflex subs is that they don't have the speed of the others.
I recently had subs both with sealed bass cabinets and modified dipoles. I had to decide which to keep and which to sell. The sealed units had more kick/impact but they did not have the texture and detail of the dipoles. The logic I apply to this is that dipole texture and detail negates the sealed bass kick, which is in effect a a bit one-note like. That kick or thump is lumping all the bass power into one single sound with the sealed bass enclosures, whereas with dipoles you get the bass laid out in its true detail. Where kick or thump is in the recording you still get this with dipoles, it's more that not all bass ends up sounding this way.
How much bass detail you can achieve in your room depends on your freedom to place the subs, how well you tune them and how good your room is at reproducing bass. If you have a big room mode colouring your bass you'll need to fix this before you can get good and consistent bass.
BTW, the dipoles I use are non-symmetrical w-frame types, sort of a folded dipole but they aren't speakers enclosures as such, event though they look a little like it.
What a good dipole bass system will give is not only drums but the bass underlinning this
Its a lot closer to what you hear with live music;on most sealed bass units this will sound a bit muddy. I could never go back to sealed bass units
Ali Tait
12-05-2010, 09:05
http://www.martinlogan.com/images/trim/speaker/summit_x_nat_cherry_black_alu.jpg
Oh I see,you were talking about ML's.
The Avi units look the buisness but pricey at the moment.
When i look for dipole subs lots of AV rear speakers come up.:scratch:
you find more in the diy community They are rarely made in a commercial sense but well worth the effort. If you not good a Diy you can always get a cabinet maker to help out
If you wish to hear dipole bass drop me a line
Like to take you up on that John. Always wanted to hear what a sub sounds like. Ive got a Sevenoaks literally a few doors down from me but they always look so sad when you dont buy any thing i cant go in there.
Theoretically no, but it's just my subjective assessment, as I never get to hear the crossover in Maggies. Because these speakers are monolithic by design, all the frequency bands get served by the Maggies in a single breath, so to speak. And that's what so breathtaking about them. It's one giant surface vibrating and pushing air.
But I've seen Maggies with separate treble panels.
Primalsea
13-05-2010, 11:48
The problem with seperate subs is unless you buy a high quality speaker and sub set the sub wont be optimised to integrate with the speakers well. You will need a high quality sub that does music well and has not only frequency adjustment but filter slope adjustment.
Which companies do filter slope adjustments? REL possibly?
This is what I use to drive my bass drivers on my baffles
http://www.bkelec.com/Modules/bsbpv300.htm This should work fine if you intend to go dipole I use one for each bass driver
THat looks like serious kit. Whats involved in the cabinet making ? Im guesing you dont use chipboard.
Which companies do filter slope adjustments? REL possibly?
I thought they all did. None of the active ones out there are fixed unless they're a part of a set like the 'orrible Bose boom/shreik acoustimass sets.
You can use the boxes they come in but a nice oak box would suit them well
dim_span
18-05-2010, 18:58
have never owned a sub, but something still puzzles me ...
you have 2 speakers .... you listen to a cd or vinyl ... you set up your speakers to get the 'sweet spot' with a decent soundstage ...
you add 1 sub in the centre of the 2 speakers ...
now, assuming the sound with the 2 speakers is very close to what it would sound in a live concert, does the sub in the centre not throw the balance out? ... i.e. assuming that the bass should be more prominent from one of the main speakers only (if that makes sense?)
most prob a stupid question, but am still learning
alfie2902
18-05-2010, 19:15
Bass is not directional so it's harder for the ear/brain to work out where bass is coming from. The hard part is setting up the sub/s to create this illusion with seamless integration.
Tony Moore
18-05-2010, 19:17
I believe the theory is that the bass wavelengths covered by the sub are so long that it is effectively directionless in a normal room size. So you can have one sub and it not matter. My opinion is that two subs are probably better in principle but I used one sub and yes, you can't tell where that 20-50 Hz is coming from! If you want your sub to cover upper bass too then you're going to get into the problems you suggest. Then you need bigger bass drivers on your main speakers, plus the sub for the earth shaking very low stuff.
At some point I think I'll start using my Rel again, when I get a bigger house! I miss the really deep stuff, although I've got 10" drivers on my main speakers so they go quite low already.
Cheers,
Tony
dim_span
18-05-2010, 19:27
Thanks Tony ... that explains it a bit better ... I have always used transmission line design speakers (IMF TLS 80) and now B&W DM2, so bass has never really been a major issue
but have learned something that I may need to know in the future
I asked a similar question when going to active bass for my open baffles
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2778&hilit=stereo+bass
I read a post today on a computer audio site where the guy tried a BK XLS200
sub with his AVI neutrons and found they integrated well. He found that with the low pass filter at 60 hz the timing was good and the bass did not intrude.
BK make parts for REL and MJ acoustics but also sell their own stuff at low prices from their Web site. The sub he tried was £300.
To good to be true? This is just about affordable for me and as long as i dont need room measuring instruments , i could have one of these. Dont know dont know:scratch:
I only use the sub plate but no grumbles with it I still think get something like the Augie dipole bass driver and build you own it work out a little bit more expensive but you then have something pretty special the omly limit will be your room and other half as they are 15" or 10"drivers I use the big ones Also Bastanis does a even bigger dipole bass driver
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/catalogs/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=19
I'm a big fan of active subs to accompany good 2 way speakers. However, there are a few things that I would bear in mind. They need very careful adjustment both in terms of physical position and level and X-over adjustment. Very, very tiny level adjustments can make a surprisingly big difference. You need quite a large and expensive sub. Don't put it in the corner of the room. How it is mounted makes quite a big difference. Room treatment may also be necessary. Not all speaker bass alignments work well. I wouldn't want to X-over above about 55Hz. Earthing can make quite a big difference. Less is often more.
Demoed a B&W 608 today hoping it might sound ok.
Oh dear what a disaster. Like you say i need an expensive sub. Tried to bid on a AVI sub on e bay but it got away. Think ill reconsider the whole thing.
Perhaps some medium sized standmounts with a nice midband like the neutrons,would be the answer. Spendors perhaps.
go for the WD speakers room friendly and good bass
Just to confirm John, are you talking about the Peter comeau stand mount kit?
nope floor standers if you have room Great bass for floor standers for reasonable bass on standmounts go for the My Clapton speakers they have a good sense of scale for such small speakers...but utimatly physics will catch up
Ali Tait
30-05-2010, 14:18
The standmounts have good bass for their size too.Sound very unbox-like for box speaker.
Since getting my Icon Audio phono stage i find myself looking longingly at their 40w integrated but ive doubted wether they can drive my 87.5db AVIs. How much valve power would the WDs take before they are happy?
The WD will love valves and their own amps would give you a great sound
AVI Neutrons (all of them) have a great mid and treble region and it's worth persevering getting a decent sub (or two, as said above) to go with them..
As said above, many subs, including many REL's surprisingly, just thump and boom away in a totally tuneless manner. many years ago, I loved the little M&K ones, which just fleshed out the bottom octaves enough to increase realism IMO.
Maggies fast? I prefer good electrostatics myself as they're not as response-wayward or inefficient. I've not heard the very latest Maggies though.
Finally, don't write off the AVI sub for the ADM's. It's been designed for MUSIC, the box is imported so should be cheap and enable more of the budget to be spent on the driver, which is a 10" type with humongous magnet on the back. The amp pack is UK made IIRC.
If you manage to scan this today Dave , id like your opinion on a M&K sub on e bay. Its an easy pick up for me and looks in nice nic.
The model is a k10 , an 8" driver with 75w amp. Im thinking its from there budget range.
Techno Commander
05-07-2010, 23:59
- Many subwoofers out there are truly hopeless with music and just boom and thump away to anything put through them.
I agree anything that booms and thumps isnt a sub. Its merely an additional bass radiator and is usually being overdriven and therefore providing too much of what you already have, rather than some of what you dont.
- The best way to implement a sub is to have one for each channel, thus doubling the cost and the box count.
I concur. I have 2 of these (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4647.pdf) (prepares for incoming flack;))
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Hi%20Fi/JBL.jpg
In my defence, I will state that these were designed for cinema use and have an incredibly flat respomse from 38 - 100 Hz. I used them with a 50Hz active crossover and a NAD 208 power amp. In use, most of the time you didnt actually notice them doing anything, but every so often, they reminded you of their presence.:eyebrows:
They are currently being used as speaker stands. I do miss them a little and they did make watching DVD's a completely satisfying experience.
No flak from me Andy -little beauty but must be 25 years old?
Techno Commander
09-07-2010, 00:23
Not quite. Probably closer to 18 years though. I got those when I was going through my JBL phase. I also had a pair of 4410 studio monitors sat on top of the subs.
Picture from web.
http://www.sthifi.com/bbs/pic09/200978154622412.jpg
In an ideal world, I would have prefered a pair of L-96's but being in the live music industry, I was able to get the pro kit at trade prices, where as the 96's being civvy boxes, I would have had to pay retail for them.;)
If I remember correctly, I think i got all 4 cabs for about a grand (possibly £1100) , which I thought to be terribly good value. They were driven by an Audiolab 8000C, a home made active crossover and 4 DIY 250 watt Mosfet amps.
I was in heavy metal heaven. :eek:
I did need to tame the trebble a bit though. JBL titanium tweeters are renown for being "explicit" and possibly a little too much for domestic use.
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