View Full Version : The One Show, revolutionary new speaker?
Did anybody happen to see The One Show on Monday night?
There was a film about how speaker design hasn't fundamentally changed in a hundred years and that a company has come up with a revolutionary new design that uses an electrically charged flat panel instead of a cone with a magnet!
Now I'm no expert but hasn't that been done before by a company whose name begins with a Q?
icehockeyboy
20-03-2019, 09:12
I think a few companies have tried it too, I recall Wharfedale doing them.
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AJSki2fly
20-03-2019, 09:13
Yep, they demonstrated simple electrostatics and made sweeping statements about ability to replicate accurately across audible frequency range. I think the headphones were a snip at several thousands of pounds, but hoped that would come down as more sold to to mass market.
walpurgis
20-03-2019, 09:18
Yes. A lot of nonsense is talked about audio technology.
Though it does seem odd that after all these years, the average speaker still consists of a piece of cardboard (or latterly plastic) being waggled about on the end of a bit of wound copper wire.
Bit like the internal combustion piston engine. We're only just getting past that now after over 100 years.
Firebottle
20-03-2019, 09:22
Yes I was swearing at the tellie!
If you go into the web site they do mention that electrostatics were 'invented' 60 years ago.
Q, now what could that be, Quintet? Query? Quintessential?
While it was on I pointed out to Mrs Gaz that her boss owns a 30+ year old pair of these revolutionary new speakers
This illustrates just what a ridiculous organisation the BBC has become; many years ago they used 57s in the Transcription unit before their loudspeaker design programme.
anthonyTD
20-03-2019, 11:47
Totaly agree!
This illustrates just what a ridiculous organisation the BBC has become;.
I might see if I can get a slot.
I've invented something that will revolutionise transport, I think I'm going to call it the wheel.
paulf-2007
20-03-2019, 17:44
I might see if I can get a slot.
I've invented something that will revolutionise transport, I think I'm going to call it the wheel.
Get on there 1st April
Pigmy Pony
20-03-2019, 19:41
Yes I was swearing at the tellie!
If you go into the web site they do mention that electrostatics were 'invented' 60 years ago.
Q, now what could that be, Quintet? Query? Quintessential?
I thinks it was the guy who made James Bond's gadgets.
Martyn Miles
22-03-2019, 17:48
This illustrates just what a ridiculous organisation the BBC has become; many years ago they used 57s in the Transcription unit before their loudspeaker design programme.
The One Show is trivial rubbish, along with many programmes on BBC1.
Ideas on electrostatic speakers were first discussed as far back as 1919. The first commercial electrostatic was the American JanZen tweeter, introduced in 1953. The Quad constant charge push pull design was introduced in 1955 and became commercially available (i.e. in sizable numbers) in 1957. So at least 62 years old.
The One Show is trivial rubbish, along with many programmes on BBC1.
True. I remember when the children's television programmes ended at 1800, now they go on all evening. BBC2 is going the same way.
The One Show is trivial rubbish, along with many programmes on BBC1.
Sure, but the level of trivial rubbish is directly proportional to which guests are featured that evening. I only watch it when the guests are of particular interest.
However, I agree in general with your views on BBC1, aside from often some good dramas, such as Shetland, Line of Duty, Baptiste, etc, and excellent nature programmes, such as Blue Planet, Dynasties, etc, it's not that wonderful.
Of the five main channels, I watch BBC2, C4 and 5 most.
Marco.
True. I remember when the children's television programmes ended at 1800, now they go on all evening. BBC2 is going the same way.
Only said the same the other night. The bloke off Masterchef was doing a programme about a brewery, showing the process in the factory. We commented that it was like the old Blue Peter film clips. Adult programmes only start now at nine. Incidentally, didn’t we learn a lot ‘accidentally’ from programmes like Magpie, How etc? Because there was no other choice of programmes for kids. Only two/three channels to choose from for me and from about 4 o’clock to 6 o’clock. That was your lot. These days if it gets a bit educational or boring kids can switch over to one of the billion other channels.
Pigmy Pony
23-03-2019, 16:35
If you could cough convincingly in front of your mum and get to skive off school, you had "Watch with Mother", with such gems like Andy Pandy, and Bill & Ben. All came to an end when I eventually had to get a job :(
Martyn Miles
23-03-2019, 17:51
Only said the same the other night. The bloke off Masterchef was doing a programme about a brewery, showing the process in the factory. We commented that it was like the old Blue Peter film clips. Adult programmes only start now at nine. Incidentally, didn’t we learn a lot ‘accidentally’ from programmes like Magpie, How etc? Because there was no other choice of programmes for kids. Only two/three channels to choose from for me and from about 4 o’clock to 6 o’clock. That was your lot. These days if it gets a bit educational or boring kids can switch over to one of the billion other channels.
That bald guy from Masterchef gets right up my nose!
walpurgis
23-03-2019, 18:55
That bald guy from Masterchef gets right up my nose!
That's Gregg Wallace. Forgotten the other one's name, might be Gromit. :D
That's Gregg Wallace. Forgotten the other one's name, might be Gromit. :D
The one who constantly grins! Actually both of them get up my nose.
I've never seen 'Masterchef'. Anything involving hospitals, dancing or cooking is right out for me. So that's about 90% of the BBC's output.
walpurgis
23-03-2019, 21:38
I've never seen 'Masterchef'. Anything involving hospitals, dancing or cooking is right out for me. So that's about 90% of the BBC's output.
The only hospital based thing I've ever voluntarily watched was 'House', which was bloody brilliant!
The only hospital based thing I've ever voluntarily watched was 'House', which was bloody brilliant!
There was 'Only When I Laugh' too. That was pretty good.
And the hospital-related Carry On films get a pass, too.
Thought you had a thing about nurses?;)
Marco.
Strippers dressed as nurses. Not the same thing.
Yeah, you like it sleazy!:eyebrows:
Marco.
It’s the normal now days. TV shows these days are about idiots! All the reality shows, like the one about a family living in Alaska, are purposely stupid! Instead of finding some real woodsman who is clever and resourceful, they pick this family who are lucky they don’t accidentally kill themselves every day! And have no clue what they are doing.
And everything is life and death! A show about building cabins off the grid, and every board that goes up is life threatening, and then they always do something stupid just for the camera. Break something, drop something, suffer a major setback, get in an argument, and the deadlines! Every show where they build anything, a bike, a car, a house, they’ve got to have it done by Friday! Some imaginary deadline that’s supposed to create suspense. Who wants a bike they had to build in 5 days? I sure don’t.
BBC America channels are rather good, better than most actually.
Russell
It’s the normal now days. TV shows these days are about idiots! All the reality shows, like the one about a family living in Alaska, are purposely stupid! Instead of finding some real woodsman who is clever and resourceful, they pick this family who are lucky they don’t accidentally kill themselves every day! And have no clue what they are doing.
And everything is life and death! A show about building cabins off the grid, and every board that goes up is life threatening, and then they always do something stupid just for the camera. Break something, drop something, suffer a major setback, get in an argument, and the deadlines! Every show where they build anything, a bike, a car, a house, they’ve got to have it done by Friday! Some imaginary deadline that’s supposed to create suspense. Who wants a bike they had to build in 5 days? I sure don’t.
BBC America channels are rather good, better than most actually.
Russell
I think that's because they can cherry-pick from the BBC output. An organisation the size of the BBC makes loads of television so occasionally they will come up with something good just by the law of averages. Like a thousand monkeys on a thousand typewriters.
I watch PBS America quite a lot. They have some intelligent documentaries, with lots of interesting footage and just a voiceover instead of some tosser presenter wandering about asking inane questions to pad out the lack of real content.
My TV gets switched on an maximum of 50 hrs a year. 18 of those are to watch the 1hr MotoGP highlights slot. The rest are reserved for occasional delights like Blue planet style programmes or Guy Martins Speed and one off special interest programmes I happen to spot.
The rest of the output across all channels is banal dross from my perspective and aimed at the nuckle daggers in society.
Minstrel SE
24-03-2019, 23:37
"Ive got 13 channels of shit on the TV to choose from" (213)
The only good channel is BBC 4 HD. Do yourselves a favour and delete channels from your menu. It makes life so much simpler and better.
BBC1 is like Radio 1 now..whats on it worth bothering with?
I think it was originally 21 channels of shit BTW.
The BBC is living on borrowed time IMO, until their current licence runs out. BBC1 and 2 are a waste of electron flow, and the only redeeming channel is BBC4, but there is a limit to how much supposed education one can sustain. Odd things on 2 can be OK.
How can such dross, which is also on radio, be generated by so many mediocre people who get paid so much money, and who are so egotistical and self important doing it?
I loathe Chris Evans, Graham Norton, Sara Cox and many others, radio $s Today is often unintelligible, and why are all they so 'up themselves'?
Pigmy Pony
25-03-2019, 06:59
It's actually 13 channels of shit on my TV to choose from. No doubt I'll get some stick later from Mrs. P for playing "Nobody Home" at 6.45 am.
"Ive got 13 channels of shit on the TV to choose from" (213)
The only good channel is BBC 4 HD. Do yourselves a favour and delete channels from your menu. It makes life so much simpler and better.
BBC1 is like Radio 1 now..whats on it worth bothering with?
I've narrowed mine down to about 70 channels using the 'Favourites' feature so I don't have to trawl through all the kid's channels, the god bothering and the Asian networks. Some evenings there's still nothing on that's worth watching. I never remember that being the case when we only had 3 channels. There was always at least one programme worth checking out at some point.
I've recently been watching old episodes of 'Yes Minister' on YouTube. Such great scripts and superb playing, you can watch them multiple times and still enjoy them. No-one is making anything like that anymore.
I think that's because they can cherry-pick from the BBC output. An organisation the size of the BBC makes loads of television so occasionally they will come up with something good just by the law of averages. Like a thousand monkeys on a thousand typewriters.
I watch PBS America quite a lot. They have some intelligent documentaries, with lots of interesting footage and just a voiceover instead of some tosser presenter wandering about asking inane questions to pad out the lack of real content.
I do enjoy all of those David Attenborough narrated shows. Very educational! He really knows his stuff, and whoever is taking those camera shots have got to be half crazy! And I do enjoy an underwater show from time to time. There is some really alien looking things living in the deep ocean. And those Planet shows are also some amazing photography. I tend to search first in History channel, Science, A&E, BBC-A, those types of channels. And if there is nothing on, I’ll watch Spongebob cartoons! Many good cartoons on these days, when all else fails!
Russell
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I bow to your more accurate knowledge Steve, but the point is valid, and now we have 100s of channels of shit to choose from.
Martin I agree, but the variables are; we are better educated now in many respects, and expect more because we do not accept unquestioningly what we are given, and, the dumbing down which we have seen in the last 25 years has made masses of ubiquitous crap.
I also include Alan Carr and John Humphreys in the above loathing post, as well as the other Carr with a ridiculous laugh. Fiona Bruce also causes me cognitive dissonance, as well as shrieking weather girls, although other aspects of them are very nice..
Pigmy Pony
25-03-2019, 19:24
I bow to your more accurate knowledge Steve, but the point is valid, and now we have 100s of channels of shit to choose from.
Martin I agree, but the variables are; we are better educated now in many respects, and expect more because we do not accept unquestioningly what we are given, and, the dumbing down which we have seen in the last 25 years has made masses of ubiquitous crap.
I also include Alan Carr and John Humphreys in the above loathing post, as well as the other Carr with a ridiculous laugh. Fiona Bruce also causes me cognitive dissonance, as well as shrieking weather girls, although other aspects of them are very nice..
Don't know if you get Lucy Verasamy down your way, but she is easy on the eye :)
I've started watching News at Ten, now that they've got Tom Bradby doing it -he has a conversational style which makes it all a bit less dull. Except when reporting on B___it, no one can make that shit interesting.
Don't know if you get Lucy Verasamy down your way, but she is easy on the eye :)
I've started watching News at Ten, now that they've got Tom Bradby doing it -he has a conversational style which makes it all a bit less dull. Except when reporting on B___it, no one can make that shit interesting.
Yeah, Tom s facial expression s often sum up best the news item he s describing. Wish Lucy V was going DOWN my way ;)
"
Don't know if you get Lucy Verasamy down your way, but she is easy on the eye "
Yes, wonderful shape at the top, but her voice is very samey.
Pigmy Pony
26-03-2019, 07:03
"
Don't know if you get Lucy Verasamy down your way, but she is easy on the eye "
Yes, wonderful shape at the top, but her voice is very samey.
:lol: I see what you did there
At least everyone s better than Michael Fishface and his famous non calling of the hurricane that nearly blasted everyone away !. Not sure what that s got to do with the price of fish though ( oh dear )
or the one show.
Martyn Miles
26-03-2019, 20:48
Time we got back to revolutionary new speakers...
Time we got back to revolutionary new speakers...
:clapclapclap:
Agreed! This thread had becomed :hijack:, by the 'frock wearers', as so often happens these days. :doh:
I've recently been watching old episodes of 'Yes Minister' on YouTube. Such great scripts and superb playing, you can watch them multiple times and still enjoy them. No-one is making anything like that anymore.
Thank fuck lol, as I couldn't stand it first time round! :doh::eyebrows:
I guess it was all right, if you were into politics, which I couldn't stand, so I hated it, and that also applies now. The humour was also rather too 'quintessentially English' for my tastes, as it was in the likes of Black Adder and Dad's Army ... Just not my thang.
I prefer Scottish comedies - much funnier, IMO!
Marco.
What, like "Rab C. Nesbitt"? :scratch:
Does that make Marco a frock wearer ?
Does that make Marco a frock wearer ?
Oh yes! :D
What, like "Rab C. Nesbitt"? :scratch:
Lol, nah, that's old hat! Like Still Game, or even better, Chewin' the Fat... Here's a classic clip:
https://youtu.be/oBRywUeiB6Y
Burnistoun is also pretty good... A classic clip:
https://youtu.be/sAz_UvnUeuU
That stuff just appeals to my sense of humour much more, than staid, pseudo-intellectual pish like Yes Minister [sorry, Macca].
Marco.
Oh yes! :D
Wot, moi? The contents of Tabatha's dungeon shall forever remain secret!:eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
26-03-2019, 21:43
Wot, moi? The contents of Tabatha's dungeon shall forever remain secret!:eyebrows:
Marco.
We already know about the branding irons. :D
Wot, moi? The contents of Tabatha's dungeon shall forever remain secret!:eyebrows:
Marco.
That reminds me - I must thank Tabatha for the 'relief massage' she gave me the other day.
(Now I'm being guilty of 'thread creep'! :doh:)
Time we got back to revolutionary new speakers...
That aren't new or that revolutionary. Got their own flaws, electrostatics, I couldn't have them long term. Some modern speakers get very close to the midrange transparency of a static now anyway.
Kii3 or Dutch And Dutch with the DSP and the bass cancelling are more revolutionary even if not by much. Wake me up when they invent the perfect speaker, until then I'll stick with big ones I like the sound of.
:clapclapclap:
Agreed! This thread had becomed :hijack:, by the 'frock wearers', as so often happens these days. :doh:
Frock wearers?
I thought it was the "I'm soooo intellectual I hardly ever watch TV and I'm going to make sure everyone knows it" brigade lol
The 'perfect speaker' will never be achieved IMO.
So I'll stick with my electrostatics with all their strengths and weakness.
Frock wearers?
I thought it was the "I'm soooo intellectual I hardly ever watch TV and I'm going to make sure everyone knows it" brigade lol
Oh - you meant the "I'm so interllectual, I hardly ever watch TV"? Well that's not me - I watch about 15 hours of TV a week (mostly BBC4), and thoroughly enjoy it.
I also watch a fair amount of DVDs - but they are are often black and white foreign language films, with subtitles. Maybe that does make me an 'interllectual'?
That reminds me - I must thank Tabatha for the 'relief massage' she gave me the other day.
Ha - what would Happy say about that?:D;)
Marco.
P.S Hope you remembered the tissues.
Frock wearers?
I thought it was the "I'm soooo intellectual I hardly ever watch TV and I'm going to make sure everyone knows it" brigade lol
I know lol, way too much snobbery being shown here... Let's bring things down to earth a bit. Ok, BBC1 was mentioned. so here's what I watch regularly on that channel:
Bargain Hunt [l have an interest in antiques, so I'll watch any programme along on those lines].
Money for Nothing [being a 'greeny', I love recycling/up-cycling things, and anything that involves artistic design].
Antiques Roadshow.
Blue Planet Live [love nature programmes, and this one is superbly done].
Baptiste [love pretty much all BBC dramas, especially crime-related ones].
Shetland [ditto].
The Sheriffs are Coming [love watching assholes, trying to shaft folk, get their comeuppance].
This Time with Alan Partridge [quite funny sometimes].
Saturday Kitchen [yes, I watch some cookery shows, as I'm a foodie]. Not into Masterchef, though.
Football Focus [I'm a big football fan].
Sportscene, on BBC1 Scotland [to catch highlights and chat of the SPL games].
There you go!:cool:
Marco.
Ha - what would Happy say about that?:D;)
Marco.
P.S Hope you remembered the tissues.
"A man has to have his secrets".
Apropos your post supra, thanks to Happy's interest in antiques, we also watch 'Antiques Roadshow', 'Antiques Road Trip', 'Flog it', and my favourite: 'The Repair Shop'.
And I'm also a sucker for any natural history programme, as well as some of the art history programmes (especially those presented by Jamie Fox).
Apropos your post supra, thanks to Happy's interest in antiques, we also watch 'Antiques Roadshow', 'Antiques Road Trip', 'Flog it', and my favourite: 'The Repair Shop'.
Yes, love all those too, especially The Repair Shop:)
Watching TV should also be a fun/lighthearted experience, not simply educational, so the occasional bit of 'disposable froth' can hit the spot. Some folks on forums though, don't seem to know how to let their hair down and have fun;)
Marco.
walpurgis
26-03-2019, 22:45
Yes, I thought 'The Repair Shop' was excellent too. Nice to see people with real skills at work.
My dislikes were not borne of intellectual snobbery, but more biased towards concerns about personal interaction issues of morality; the BBC, and many others are so patronising.
Watching BBC4 is for me a sort of 'Christian work ethic' way of looking at life, having had a childhood in which I was constantly castigated for not being good enough, and ordered to try harder.
To me Yes Minister was good because it showed subtle dishonestys of motivation.
If humour or theatre are banal to you, they are tedious to watch.
I love Car SOS, because it does so much in many ways; it is great to see such good refurbishment, and dedication, and also to see a person so delighted with the results that he is overcome wit joy.
Pigmy Pony
27-03-2019, 06:57
Oh - you meant the "I'm so interllectual, I hardly ever watch TV"? Well that's not me - I watch about 15 hours of TV a week (mostly BBC4), and thoroughly enjoy it.
I also watch a fair amount of DVDs - but they are are often black and white foreign language films, with subtitles. Maybe that does make me an 'interllectual'?
Not necessarily - you could be a colour blind foreigner using the subtitles to improve your English :D Probably more effective than Evelyn Woodhead, and dubbed versions are for plebs anyway.
No problem, Dennis. I understand where you're coming from, although I'm sorry to hear about that unfortunate aspect of your childhood.
Some stuff on BBC4 is great. We were watching this programme last night about Japanese art and culture, which was simply fascinating: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08tvzws and there are many other great shows on that channel.
Yup, Car SoS is fab, as are all other car shows of that ilk. At the other end of the scale, I also like Top Gear (even without the 'old guard'). Some other shows I've enjoyed recently, and in the past, on the Beeb, are:
Peaky Blinders
The Apprentice
White Gold
MotherFatherSon
Eggheads
Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
Great British Menu
James May's Cars of the People
Match of the Day
Dragons' Den
Marco.
I'll watch any old crap, it's better than talking to the wife.
You lot can be highbrow as you like, celebrity dancing on bake off get me out of here's got the voice talent factor is preferable to a discussion on what bedding matches the carpet
I'll watch any old crap, it's better than talking to the wife.
You lot can be highbrow as you like, celebrity dancing on bake off get me out of here's got the voice talent factor is preferable to a discussion on what bedding matches the carpet
That logic is pretty watertight I must admit.
I don't just watch high brow stuff. There's hardly any of it on anyway. Spent a chunk of last night watching 'Ancient Aliens' - great show, mostly total bollocks.
Pigmy Pony
27-03-2019, 19:08
I'll watch any old crap, it's better than talking to the wife.
You lot can be highbrow as you like, celebrity dancing on bake off get me out of here's got the voice talent factor is preferable to a discussion on what bedding matches the carpet
You really should spend some tome talking to your wife - how else will she know what you want for your tea
A set tea for every night? Fish on Fridays.
Pigmy Pony
27-03-2019, 19:34
I always have pizza on Fridays, if I suddenly changed to fish she would think I was having an affair. Same reason I would never buy flowers or chocolates for no good reason. Take it from a wise old man who has had only a modicum of success with the fairer sex. Women want to change their man, but are suspicious of any changes that are not of their doing.
Like if I suddenly started watching The One Show - Mrs. P would assume I'm lusting after that female presenter, the one that looks like she could eat a whole banana sideways.
There, back on topic! (sort of) :)
Minstrel SE
27-03-2019, 20:26
No its not Im so intellectual I hardy watch tv.
Not that at all. TV is generally so bad I hardly watch TV.
Its the same repeats of police shows Ramsay, storage hunters and all that dross. All the disgusting fly on the wall stuff like cant pay or benefit scroungers are near you. Oh and dragons den is a disgusting exercise in cap doffing to the egos of the rich
Top gear has been an embarrassment The bbc casting office should be hung drawn and quartered...so bad I was even wishing Clarkson was back and thats saying something
I always have pizza on Fridays, if I suddenly changed to fish she would think I was having an affair. Same reason I would never buy flowers or chocolates for no good reason. Take it from a wise old man who has had only a modicum of success with the fairer sex. Women want to change their man, but are suspicious of any changes that are not of their doing.
Ha - there's definitely an element of truth in what you're saying, as far as the wider world is concerned, but if you recognise the above in your own relationship, then all I can say is you've married the wrong woman!;)
Marco.
No its not Im so intellectual I hardy watch tv.
Not that at all. TV is generally so bad I hardly watch TV.
Its the same repeats of police shows Ramsay, storage hunters and all that dross. All the disgusting fly on the wall stuff like cant pay or benefit scroungers are near you. Oh and dragons den is a disgusting exercise in cap doffing to the egos of the rich
Top gear has been an embarrassment The bbc casting office should be hung drawn and quartered...so bad I was even wishing Clarkson was back and thats saying something
Fair enough, but although I agree with some your points, I disagree with most of what you've written, or rather I don't tend to analyse TV programmes so deeply, so when I watch Dragon's Den, I enjoy it from the position of myself being a businessman/entrepreneur and for a bit of lighthearted entertainment, same as Top Gear (in terms of the latter, plus I love fast cars), or indeed anything else I watch and enjoy as a bit of harmless 'disposable froth':)
I never understand either how some folk get so 'uptight' about people on TV, presenters, etc, that they love or hate. I don't have any strong feelings, one way or another, towards anyone on TV, as they're simply not important enough, nor do they influence my life in any way; in fact I often like the folk that most people hate, simply because they're outspoken and have a personality (even if I disagree with their views): Piers Morgan springs to mind;)
Nothing worse than bland, boring bastards, who sit on the fence because they're too scared of offending anyone!
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
27-03-2019, 22:54
Fair enough, but although I agree with some your points, I disagree with most of what you've written, or rather I don't tend to analyse TV programmes so deeply, so when I watch Dragon's Den, I enjoy it from the position of myself being a businessman/entrepreneur and for a bit of lighthearted entertainment, same as Top Gear (in terms of the latter, plus I love fast cars), or indeed anything else I watch and enjoy as a bit of harmless 'disposable froth':)
I never understand either how some folk get so 'uptight' about people on TV, presenters, etc, that they love or hate. I don't have any strong feelings, one way or another, towards anyone on TV, as they're simply not important enough, nor do they influence my life in any way; in fact I often like the folk that most people hate, simply because they're outspoken and have a personality (even if I disagree with their views): Piers Morgan springs to mind;)
Nothing worse than bland, boring bastards, who sit on the fence because they're too scared of offending anyone!
Marco.
I wish I knew how to highlight part of a post, so my reply could be easier to follow, but hey-ho...
Re. your last sentence, that sounds rather like the presenters of The One Show! But the thing with TV presenters is that they are just that - they are paid to appear that way. Bit like those professional wrestlers from yesteryear, like Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks they cultivate an image which they then play up to for the benefit of their audience. For all I know, One Show's female presenter the one with a smile like a 60's Ford Anglia) may be a right screaming skull in real life :(
I like Dragon's den because I am intrigued by the powerful's attempts to suppress arrogance and contempt for the askers, and be polite. Seeing that struggle is interesting.
You may think it silly, but so many films are so boring and banal that I watch them as an exercise in scrutiny, trying to flaw them forensically as an attempt at self improvement.
I am upset that so many talentless twats get so much money; £50k to £800k ish.
Re. your last sentence, that sounds rather like the presenters of The One Show! But the thing with TV presenters is that they are just that - they are paid to appear that way.
Exactly, so why let it bother or influence you? That question, of course, is directed at those who get 'all uptight' about the behaviour of TV presenters or celebrities. Like you, I see their 'front' for what it is.
In terms of The One Show, as I've said before, I watch it (occasionally) for the guests featured, if there's an actor/actress or comedian on that I like, or whatever, not the presenters. And once I've seen what I want to see, I generally turn over to something else.
As for Charlotte Jones, who co-presents the show, I can't say that I've noticed her mouth, so that just shows how your mind works!:D
Marco.
I like Dragon's den because I am intrigued by the powerful's attempts to suppress arrogance and contempt for the askers, and be polite. Seeing that struggle is interesting.
You may think it silly, but so many films are so boring and banal that I watch them as an exercise in scrutiny, trying to flaw them forensically as an attempt at self improvement.
I am upset that so many talentless twats get so much money; £50k to £800k ish.
An interesting observation, Dennis; indeed all are, but particularly the bit I've highlighted. The battle of (planet-sized) egos, among the Dragons, as to who gets a deal, also amuses me! As for grossly overpaid talentless twats, hear, hear!:clap:
However, I guess you get what you deserve, as dictated by, in the main, the braindead viewing standards of the masses! Ultimately, the quality of the presenter reflects the quality of the viewer:rolleyes:
Marco.
Yes Marco, and that is my main gripe about democracy; the able's ability to affect things is limited by the mass of low quality people who can't bother to apply themselves to their lives, thinking being a large part of that.
So I am not getting what I deserve, but what the mass determines.
Despite the implied if not stated, at school, (Gold star for Marc for doing so well in maths for example), if anyone thinks that we live in a meritocracy, they are seriously deluded. I am not trying to be seen to be a smart arse, but I have come first in so many tests over the years that I have lost count, and have never got beyond the basic level in any job.
Despite the implied if not stated, at school, (Gold star for Marc for doing so well in maths for example), if anyone thinks that we live in a meritocracy, they are seriously deluded. .
Possibly quite a good thing that we do not live in a meritocracy given the origins of the term:
The Rise of the Meritocracy is a book by British sociologist and politician Michael Dunlop Young which was first published in 1958.[1] It describes a dystopian society in a future United Kingdom in which intelligence and merit have become the central tenet of society, replacing previous divisions of social class and creating a society stratified between a merited power-holding elite and a disenfranchised underclass of the less merited
The problem being that successful people will credit themselves with their success rather than more correctly ascribing it to luck - the good fortune to be born when and where they were, to be in the right place at the right time, and so forth.
Consequently the concept of 'noblesse oblige' in which the wealthy acknowledge the good fortune of their accident of birth and treat the less fortunate commensurately is swept aside for a society in which the successful consider that the disadvantaged get the lives they deserve and fuck them, they should have worked harder.
Probably a bit heavy for a Thursday lunchtime I know.
a good chunk of society is disenfranchised. Although some of that is their own fault it is mostly brought upon them. Being clever is not a guaranteed route to success, and stupidity isnt always a bar(think of all the bosses and politicians youve seen that fit the bill)nor should they be. An ability to blend in to your circumstances is much more important, as is knowing someone who is already someone.
It has always been this way to a greater or lesser extent at one time or another.
walpurgis
28-03-2019, 13:36
Being clever is not a guaranteed route to success
Very true. I should know. :)
a good chunk of society is disenfranchised..
And the beauty of is that most of them don't care. Although I've noticed that many middle-class social justice warriors just don't seem to get that.
Being "in the 'right place at the right time" is, IMO, often the reason why the mediocre get promoted. Nepotism or downright 'crawling' is another way the inept rise up the ladder.
Tall men tend to earn more and at a higher level than their shorter counterparts as tall men are subconsciously perceived as being more capable.
Martin, when you quote; "intelligence and merit ", this raises an important issue.
Intelligence is largely genetically determined, and should not IMO be rewarded, but merit is composed of personal effort.
I don't agree that a good chunk of the disenfranchised don't care, although that may have been much more so when drinking and smoking were socially acceptable.
Martin, when you quote; "intelligence and merit ", this raises an important issue.
Intelligence is largely genetically determined, and should not IMO be rewarded, but merit is composed of personal effort.
.
I think the thrust of Young's argument is that we are inclined to award ourselves far more merit for our achievements than we actually deserve. And this consequently affects how we view and treat other people. The 'If someone is poor it must be their own fault' way of thinking.
I don't see how a system where intelligence is not rewarded but effort is could work. It seems to me it would be very difficult to separate the contribution of each when assessing any endeavour.
I don't agree that a good chunk of the disenfranchised don't care, although that may have been much more so when drinking and smoking were socially acceptable.
I agree, based on the "disenfranchised" I know and have spoken to, who hardly have two pennies to rub together, live in poor conditions and have no real prospects. They're desperate to improve matters and better themselves!
Plus, my wife teaches disadvantaged kids everyday (who come from some very poor homes), and the vast majority want to learn and achieve a good education, so that they can hopefully get a decent job and subsequently enjoy a reasonable standard of living. That's certainly their aim, therefore I simply don't buy the 'don't care' angle.
Marco.
Minstrel SE
28-03-2019, 19:58
Come on Marco. You must watch Dragons Den and think its dross. :) Set up and edited dross pandering to the bloated egos of greedy people who just want more attention. They are not particularly nice people are they? As if they didnt have their hands in enough pies already...they want more and its televised. Yes when many people dont have enough in austerity Britain...the money doesnt really trickle down does it
Its just a power game and if the product was good they wouldnt care who was presenting it because they just see cash registers. Its the dragons I dont like especially Meaden...It doesnt make them superhuman accountants and essentially they are saying shut up and listen because Im considerably richer than yaauuuu.
I just find it distasteful just like giving that idiot from the callcentre any airtime.
Lol, you're entitled to your opinion, and I know where you're coming from, but as a whole I still find it entertaining. I also like and admire Peter Jones. He's got a great eye for a potential money-spinner, and likes a laugh.
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
28-03-2019, 21:17
Lol, you're entitled to your opinion, and I know where you're coming from, but as a whole I still find it entertaining. I also like and admire Peter Jones. He's got a great eye for a potential money-spinner, and likes a laugh.
Marco.
And he has an impressive collection of socks. He seems likeable enough, although I can't be doing with Dog-face Deborah. I certainly don't begrudge any of these dragons being financially successful, but I've no interest in watching them lord it over those who are trying to get their own ideas off the ground. Sounds like I watch this regularly, but I really don't - if there was nothing else on the other channels I'd go and wash up or something.
I'm not easily wound up, but it does bug me a bit when someone who is doing well financially comes with the old "No one handed me this, I've worked hard all my life".
It implies that those of us with less are lazy or just plain stupid.
I know I'm never going to be rich, and I'm fine with that - I'm certainly not going to waste my time and energy being upset about it. I suppose that makes me one of the "disenfranchised that don't care" :(
I'm not easily wound up, but it does bug me a bit when someone who is doing well financially comes with the old "No one handed me this, I've worked hard all my life".
It implies that those of us with less are lazy or just plain stupid.
Lol, how so? TBH, I'm surprised you think that way. Have you considered that they could simply be making a statement of fact?
I'm not rich, like the Dragons, but I've done reasonably well and am financially secure - and like those you're referring to who've done well financially, that situation wasn't handed to me on a plate. However, in saying that I'm certainly not implying that people with less are lazy or plain stupid.
It's just a simple statement of fact, usually made to stem the scorn of the jealous or resentful, who may think that you've had it all handed to you on a plate!;)
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
28-03-2019, 22:25
Lol, how so? I'm surprised you think that way, TBH. Have you considered that they could simply be making a statement of fact?
I'm not rich, like the Dragons, but I've done reasonably well and am financially secure - and like those you're referring to who've done well financially, that situation wasn't handed to me on a plate. However, in saying that I'm certainly not implying that people with less are lazy or plain stupid.
It's just a simple statement of fact, usually made to stem the scorn of the jealous or resentful, who may think that you've had it handed to you on a plate!;)
Marco.
Apologies if I appear to be bothered about it - You should know by now that I don't give a shiny shite about other people's wealth relative to my own, I'm more concerned with how they are with other people, me in particular :)
You've missed my point, which is that some folk make it sound like their success is simply a result of their hard work, and fail to acknowledge that much of it is down to pure luck (being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right people).
It's now 45 years since I left school, and have had a total of four weeks of unemployment in that time, have had about the same amount of days off sick too (lucky me), and I consider myself hard working. I just about make enough to pay the bills and have a week away somewhere each year. Clearly "hard work" isn't the sole reason for accrued wealth, there are other forces at play.
I suppose I could say that I enjoy good health because I eat well and lead a healthy lifestyle, but apart from being a lie, it might appear similarly smug to people who suffer ill health through no fault of their own.
Genetics-geographical location-upbringing-wealthy parents/relatives/quality of education-health-friends with influence-sheer luck-any combination of these.
I need to stop now, it's starting to look like I care.
Apologies if I appear to be bothered about it - You should know by now that I don't give a shiny shite about other people's wealth relative to my own, I'm more concerned with how they are with other people, me in particular :)
You've missed my point, which is that some folk make it sound like their success is simply a result of their hard work, and fail to acknowledge that much of it is down to pure luck (being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right people).
It's now 45 years since I left school, and have had a total of four weeks of unemployment in that time, have had about the same amount of days off sick too (lucky me), and I consider myself hard working. I just about make enough to pay the bills and have a week away somewhere each year. Clearly "hard work" isn't the sole reason for accrued wealth, there are other forces at play.
I suppose I could say that I enjoy good health because I eat well and lead a healthy lifestyle, but apart from being a lie, it might appear similarly smug to people who suffer ill health through no fault of their own.
Genetics-geographical location-upbringing-wealthy parents/relatives/quality of education-health-friends with influence-sheer luck-any combination of these.
I need to stop now, it's starting to look like I care.All true
"I don't see how a system where intelligence is not rewarded but effort is could work. It seems to me it would be very difficult to separate the contribution of each when assessing any endeavour. "
Nor do I, and there are many other confounding variables in the meritocratic ideal.
When I watch DD, I am also hoping that those who have had the guts to leave a 9-5 and go it on their own, actually get somewhere, rather than slaving for others.
I see you have covered this in a later post Steve, but I do believe that you care.
10 pages of navel gazing later,does anyone remember what happened to the flat panel speakers from the mid/late 90s,think they were called nxt or something similar?
Pigmy Pony
29-03-2019, 07:39
10 pages of navel gazing later,does anyone remember what happened to the flat panel speakers from the mid/late 90s,think they were called nxt or something similar?
Weren't they something to do with Yamaha? Expect them to make an appearance on the One Show, in the "What will they think of next?" section of the show.
Apologies if I appear to be bothered about it - You should know by now that I don't give a shiny shite about other people's wealth relative to my own, I'm more concerned with how they are with other people, me in particular :)
Lol - I was aware of that. Just really pulling your leg and making an important point at the same time, as I hate folk who resent and are jealous of the success and/or wealth of others, and I know that's not you. However, I do hope that any sneering disdain shown here for the Dragons on DD doesn't stem from that.
I'm all for supporting the underdog/downtrodden, and when I can, always help people who are struggling financially and in other ways, but sadly in the UK there still exists an ingrained aversion to celebrate success and applaud go-getters and achievers, and in that respect I wish we could take a leaf out of the book of the Americans!
You've missed my point, which is that some folk make it sound like their success is simply a result of their hard work, and fail to acknowledge that much of it is down to pure luck (being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right people).
I agree, but I'm also a believer in that you make your own luck, which derives from the attitude you adopt and how you apply yourself in life and treat others - and so often what goes around comes around....;)
It's now 45 years since I left school, and have had a total of four weeks of unemployment in that time, have had about the same amount of days off sick too (lucky me), and I consider myself hard working. I just about make enough to pay the bills and have a week away somewhere each year. Clearly "hard work" isn't the sole reason for accrued wealth, there are other forces at play.
Absolutely, but it's more about having a strong work ethic, and again that goes back to what I was saying about attitude. You obviously have that ethic ingrained in you, which reflects in your employment history.
When I left school (1983) I got a job immediately, working as an assistant in a local Esso service station, and remained employed thereafter (in sales of some description) until I started my own business in 1994. I was a good salesman, and in my view good salespeople should *never* be out of work or unable to earn money, even if they have to go cold calling, knocking doors and selling whatever to whomever!
You're right though, about "other forces" being at play, and the biggest one for me is education, and yes, whether or not you were fortunate to have had a good one.
Having a good education (at home and at school), being well spoken/well mannered, confident but not smug, and knowing how to present yourself in certain situations and get on with others, undoubtedly opens doors - and that doesn't necessarily mean having lots of paper qualifications, although I never struggled academically.
However, I've often succeeded in job interviews over candidates that, on paper, were more qualified than me, but got the job because I successfully identified what the employer was looking for, based on what I'd learned about people skills - and I learned those largely from how I'd been brought up by my parents. So yes, how much you're likely to succeed in life is directly proportional to the hand you were dealt with when you were born.
And after typing that rather deep missive, it's time for some breakfast!:cool:
Marco.
willbewill
29-03-2019, 08:24
10 pages of navel gazing later,does anyone remember what happened to the flat panel speakers from the mid/late 90s,think they were called nxt or something similar?Funnily enough I've just bought a pair of Wharfdale NXT panels, which need some restoration, to play with
walpurgis
29-03-2019, 08:34
I've been using a compact TDK made NXT system with my PC for years. It sounds remarkably decent.
From my reading in loudspeaker design books, the NXT's weakness is phasing and hence imaging.
willbewill
29-03-2019, 11:14
From my reading in loudspeaker design books, the NXT's weakness is phasing and hence imaging.Yes more 'room filling'
Minstrel SE
29-03-2019, 13:20
No I dont walk around eaten up by jealousy. Im after a bit of balance in a market that has polarised.
In large areas of the job market they are looking for the cheapest people and not the best people with a real work ethic. The pole is well greased at the bottom. Its too easy to say that the lower paid dont have the work ethic. I understand when plenty of people wonder what is the point of working hard.
I see that greedy chump running the retail firm and staff being treated disgracefully. Theres not even any point naming him as its going on all over the place and nothing gets done
That petrol station job just wouldnt be there now unless you looked a bit desperate and very cheap to employ. Dare I say a bit foreign! Oh but of course the propaganda is that "the british dont want the jobs" and I will be accused of being a racist now. Much of the reason for this brexit mess is people feel there is nothing down for them...so bluntly what jobs? leaving a lot of people needing some sort of super talent to get by.
I had a mate that started in plumbing and he had to pack it in as he just wasnt getting enough work.
The job I had when leaving school just doesnt exist now as its been largely replaced by cash machines, automisation and central processing. Heck the mini career I was blagged about doesnt exist now
Im shaped by my experiences. I am quite privileged by many standards but I got a wake up call. I was getting told I was overqualified for jobs that I needed at the time.
I have full respect for many people who build something up because its hard. However respect is earned by more than a wad of fifties. I also have an eye for any shady practices and treating employees like garbage.
So Im just saying that in the current climate its probably best to keep out of the limelight rather than flaunting power and wealth on television
I don't think it's anything to do with intelligence or effort, it's more a matter of attitude.
I know from experience that you can be as intelligent (not saying I'm a genius) and hardworking as you like but you'll get nowhere without lashings of "yes sir, no sir, what an excellent idea sir" to those above you on the ladder. I've seen plenty of stupid, lazy people promoted on the basis of sheer ass kissing ability and am fully aware that I'm where I am today because of my attitude, I refuse to play the game, if somebody is idiot or has a crap idea I tell them whoever they are, it's called honesty as far as I'm concerned. I've certainly been disadvantaged as a result of it but it's a matter of principle as far as I'm concerned.
I don't really disagree with anything you've written Martin, save to say I'm glad that I no longer have to worry about the job market, as the situation you mention of "looking for the cheapest people and not the best people with a real work ethic" would be very annoying for me, and go completely against the grain.
As an employee, I was always used to working hard, being loyal and committed to doing my best, and being respected and amply rewarded for it by my boss, and as a boss, when I started up my own company, that's what I demanded from my staff - and together we had a very good working relationship, and everyone came into work with a smile on their face. That's how things should be, but if that no longer reflects today's working world, then I'm very glad I'm not a part of it!
Your last sentence, however, almost comes across as if one should 'apologise' for being wealthy and successful, or that it is somehow vulgar or frowned upon to publicise it, and for me that's completely wrong. You should be proud of your achievements, celebrate them, and care not a jot who knows about it or what they think!! If the jealous want to be resentful, then let them be so. That's their problem, not yours.
However, in terms of Dragon's Den, if I were one of the Dragons, I'd donate all my appearance fees to charity, so that being there resulted in some genuine good, and participate simply on the basis of enjoying the experience and potentially profiting from securing a good business investment.
I'd do the same if I had a big win on the Lottery, and give most of it away to good causes I'm passionate about, and make sure friends and family were financially sorted for life, as I wouldn't really need the money, based on my premise of as long as I've got enough to do what I want, I'm happy, and which is the case. Ultimately, my personal relationships with the people I care about mean far more to me than any amount of money or material possessions.
Marco.
Tbh its mostly been like this since the start of the Thatcher years, with occasional periods of nearer full employment where it was an employee's market.. I went through a period after she changed the employment rules where getting a job and keeping it was difficult. ended up working in jobs i was well over qualified for by not telling them about said qualifications. labouring etc... better than nowt
Pigmy Pony
29-03-2019, 15:58
Marco - it's funny how we can have "disagreements" about things upon which we broadly agree! The nature of banter I suppose, and a bit of mischief thrown in. You know none of my gripes are actually directed towards you. I know you have integrity and a no-nonsense approach, and I'm always drawn towards people with those qualities...ooh, that sounds a bit gay, maybe we need to talk about power tools for a bit :)
Martin - one little thing you said in paragraph 4 caught my attention. No, I wouldn't ever call anyone racist (or sexist or whatever) for observing and reporting on things that are actually happening. All too often the racist card is waved, in order to stifle commentary on what I would consider to be the bleedin' obvious.
walpurgis
29-03-2019, 16:34
I wouldn't ever call anyone racist (or sexist or whatever) for observing and reporting on things that are actually happening. All too often the racist card is waved, in order to stifle commentary on what I would consider to be the bleedin' obvious.
Some people confuse 'racial' with 'racist'. Observations that relate to a racial matter need not be racist.
Tbh its mostly been like this since the start of the Thatcher years, with occasional periods of nearer full employment where it was an employee's market.. I went through a period after she changed the employment rules where getting a job and keeping it was difficult. ended up working in jobs i was well over qualified for by not telling them about said qualifications. labouring etc... better than nowt
Yeah, for sure. I liked to feel valued by an employer, for the right reasons, and earn the right to be so, not simply just a 'number'. That's what gave me most job satisfaction, and without job satisfaction, combined with a poor wage, you have little to work for and likely not much of a life!
Piggurs, I'll get to your post later:cool:
Marco.
Firebottle
29-03-2019, 19:41
No, I wouldn't ever call anyone racist (or sexist or whatever) for observing and reporting on things that are actually happening. All too often the racist card is waved, in order to stifle commentary on what I would consider to be the bleedin' obvious.
Oh this is so true. What is it with people that can't see 'the bleedin' obvious'.
Ninanina
29-03-2019, 19:55
"Revolutionary" ..... well not really
Quad have produced this type of speaker since 1957 ' ish
And other manufacturers have produced 'panel' speakers going back many years..
My Magneplanar speaker design goes back to about 1969, so certainly not a 'new' design
My source at the BBC tells me that next week they are having Edison's cylinder on: 'Check this out! Now you can make a recording in wax!.'
Ninanina
29-03-2019, 20:14
My source at the BBC tells me that next week they are having Edison's cylinder on: 'Check this out! Now you can make a recording in wax!.':stalks::stalks:
Nice one Martin.....;)
Minstrel SE
30-03-2019, 00:17
Yeah Im going on with myself....bit stressed at the moment to be honest
Back to speakers. What we need is a good hi fi show on the television.
Come to think of it...has there ever been an informative programme about hi fi equipment on television? Perhaps they could get James May to do a few half hour episodes :)
Is James May into hi-fi? I know he is a musician, piano player I think. Or they could get Prof Brian Cox to do it, he's a valves n vinyl man. Prefer James May though.
Marco - it's funny how we can have "disagreements" about things upon which we broadly agree! The nature of banter I suppose, and a bit of mischief thrown in. You know none of my gripes are actually directed towards you. I know you have integrity and a no-nonsense approach, and I'm always drawn towards people with those qualities...ooh, that sounds a bit gay, maybe we need to talk about power tools for a bit :)
Well, as they say, 'Happiness is a RiGID tool': https://ridgidtoolshop.co.uk/
Have you got one, shweety, and do you use it often?:bum:
Marco.
Yeah Im going on with myself....bit stressed at the moment to be honest...
What are you stressed about, Martin? Sometimes talking about it helps:)
Marco.
Well, as they say, 'Happiness is a RiGID tool': https://ridgidtoolshop.co.uk/
Have you got one, shweety, and do you use it often?:bum:
Marco.
thought happiness was a warm gun?:eyebrows:
Aye, as long as it doesn't fire blanks, and you keep the 'mechanism' well lubricated!:D
When was the last time you pulled your trigger?
Marco.
Aye, as long as it doesn't fire blanks, and you keep the 'mechanism' well lubricated!:D
When was the last time you pulled your trigger?
Marco.
sometime in the 20th century; or was it the nineteenth?:ner:
Minstrel SE
30-03-2019, 16:40
Episode 1 could be how to choose a Rega rather than a crosley cruiser :) By episode six it should be on to laying speaker cables over small wooden blocks. The BBC say they dont advertise products but they did a program about Hornby which was just a giant advertisment.
Im joking about James May but they seem to wheel him out for hobby or technical shows. He seems alright but Ive no idea if he is into hi fi equipment
I would watch it...probably just me then but I dont see why it should be considered too niche or geeky
So what were you feeling stressed about?:)
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
30-03-2019, 17:19
Oh this is so true. What is it with people that can't see 'the bleedin' obvious'.
I'm sure most people can see it Alan, but either they choose to ignore it, or are bullied (like most of us) into keeping quiet :( And those that do speak out feel the need to start with "I'm not racist, but..."
It's a shame that we can't remark on the differences in the customs of the many and diverse cultures we share the world with, I think we would be all the poorer without some diversity.
No one is perfect, and we all have our little "ways". I suppose it's only racist if we view these idiosyncrases in a negative light.
A bit of a hot topic, and I'm starting to feel uncomfortable talking about it. And that's because you can't seem to say anything about anything these days without upsetting someone. Perhaps I should make up my own language which no one else can understand - that way I can say what I like!
I'm sure most people can see it Alan, but either they choose to ignore it, or are bullied (like most of us) into keeping quiet :( And those that do speak out feel the need to start with "I'm not racist, but..."
It's a shame that we can't remark on the differences in the customs of the many and diverse cultures we share the world with, I think we would be all the poorer without some diversity.
No one is perfect, and we all have our little "ways". I suppose it's only racist if we view these idiosyncrases in a negative light.
A bit of a hot topic, and I'm starting to feel uncomfortable talking about it. And that's because you can't seem to say anything about anything these days without upsetting someone. Perhaps I should make up my own language which no one else can understand - that way I can say what I like!
toH bIlugh
Pigmy Pony
30-03-2019, 17:33
toH bIlugh
See, it works! Now in my phrase book that's Grantonese for Ooh Steve, you really are quite sexy :)
Pigmy Pony
30-03-2019, 17:34
Not in my latest avatar though - that's the last time I buy dentures off eBay :(
Pigmy Pony
30-03-2019, 17:37
I'll take that - I've reached an age where I'd rather be right than sexy.
you need to learn klingon young man :lol: tis very useful
Pigmy Pony
30-03-2019, 17:45
My next door neighbour called round yesterday, to ask if I could put up some fencing for him like the stuff I did for next door neighbour on the other side. Got chatting, and it turns out he owned Chorley's only hi fi shop for decades (Monitor Sound) and sold, amongst other brands, Technics, Quad and Monitor Audio. He also mentioned he has a shitload of vinyl up in his attic.
I think I need to get a bit more pally with him :) I may even ask him if he's heard about Quad's revolutionary new speaker, as seen on TV.
Pigmy Pony
30-03-2019, 17:49
you need to learn klingon young man :lol: tis very useful
Anita is well versed in klingon, after years of having to wash my underpants :D
toH bIlugh
Oi - I heard that!
I may even ask him if he's heard about Quad's revolutionary new speaker, as seen on TV.
Quad's revolutionary speaker, which one is that? Sounds interesting.
Oi - I heard that!SoHvaD qar
Minstrel SE
30-03-2019, 22:05
So what were you feeling stressed about?:)
Marco.
Its alright Marco I was trying to avoid that one. Forced out of a job and it seems meaningless on a cv like my whole career :)...gonna have to start something for myself but it all costs big time...would rather retire but my financial situation doesnt allow that yet. Limited work out there to tick over while thinking what to do
Its all pressure at the moment. Im trying to get some direction and inspiration from Philippe Petit :)
Im not a moaner :) I will get through to the end somehow
Sorry to hear that, Martin. What are you trained in, and what sort of jobs are you looking for?
Marco.
Minstrel SE
31-03-2019, 21:04
I'm trained in the art of laziness and pontificating...highly trained :) Seriously though there is no quick work to rush to at the moment. Age discrimination is rife.
Ive just walked out of a work trial for a couple of hours a day at a car dealership...only menial stuff but working with drongos. I have sales and admin experience but Im getting treated like an idiot. I needed the work to tick over and build on. Jobs available because everyone else is avoiding them. You cant get trained as a mechanic because they are only training kids and so on.....and on
Have you seen the costs of just putting a private hire taxi on the road. I did a free tiling course but dont want to do that :)
Seriously Marco its a catch 22 in that the money I could risk in setting up would tide me over until my first private pension kicks in.
No ultimate worries but you know how stress can build up
All the best
Martin
There is much wrong with the job market, and I spent years struggling living from '96 to '08 on what became £29 per week at the end.
This was not due to lack or qualifications or experience, and the JC said to me that employers were scared of me. (imagine how I would get on with Philip Green.)
There is massive waste of talent and ability, and also energy, which could increase the productivity of the country as well as feeding it. God knows how we are to be a wealthy nation after leaving the EU, with the massive reduction in the last 40 years in engineering output.
Ive just walked out of a work trial for a couple of hours a day at a car dealership...only menial stuff but working with drongos. I have sales and admin experience but Im getting treated like an idiot.
I've had dozens of jobs and that's pretty normal IME. Most places will assume you are an idiot when you start. The trick is to keep your head down and just do the job, they'll soon realise you are not an idiot and then other avenues may open up. Most employers are desperate to find people who are not idiots, or lazy, or who go off sick all the time. Possibly why all the eastern Europeans seem to have no trouble getting work.
BTW I've never had a problem working with 'drongos' - in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king :)
Last two jobs I've had I just got sent down by the agency to cover absence. They've got no idea who I am or what I've done, you're just a 'temp' to them. So you get treated like you can't do anything and don't know anything by the management and other staff. Both times the contract has gone on much longer than it was supposed to and they ended up offering me a permanent job. Suck it up, don't make waves, don't get into conflicts, turn up every day, do a good job, the rest will take care of itself.
In the long run that's a much easier way to get work than filling in application forms, going to interviews and so on. I could never be bothered with all that hassle. Just join an agency and let them send you wherever.
Your suggestion is consistent with my recent experience of 'professionals' Martin.
In the last few months I have experienced complete incompetence by my local borough, plumbers installing a new boiler, my ISP, (and that has been so for 9 years), my energy supplier, and even the NHS's ability to deal with a wound. They badly redressed it three times over a four week period and it did not heal, I then did it myself and it healed in four days.
If there is incompetence everywhere, and I argue that that is so, how can ability or talent, (and I am not talking about genius), be recognised?
I am not seeking glory or virtue here, but when I was with the Beeb in '72, a fellow employee said to me;
"You are so far ahead, that they will not be able to understand you."
That many situations are populated by the mediocre, does not bode well for anyone with ability or drive, and politics will very often override other considerations.
True and I long since realised that and stopped caring. I just go in, do the work and pick up the money. I've no interest in progressing up the corporate ladder. I have my own agenda and work is just a means to an end as far as I'm concerned.
I worked at one place where they had put a bunch of silly girls in charge, the place was a disaster and they would spend all day in the office arguing about who could tell who what to do whilst I was trying to turn it around on my own. Eventually the parent company pulled the plug on the whole operation, made everyone redundant. These girls were crying their eyes out but it was entirely their own fault. You don't usually see such stupidity punished like that unfortunately or it would happen a lot less and the competent people would always be put in charge of the show. But it's the way of the world. My approach is to beat the system rather than try to change it.
The trick is to make them think your useful in aiding their rise to top without appearing a threat to them.
The trick is to make them think your useful in aiding their rise to top without appearing a threat to them.
Spot on, and it can often be a tricky balance to get right. Also, and I'm a firm believer in this, if you're *genuinely good* at what you do, and apply yourself correctly, you'll rise to the top and be successful, no matter how much of a "threat" anyone else is, simply because you have the self-confidence and belief in your own ability. That's what I've always found in life.
It's only the inferior/inadequates who worry about what others are doing, and try to put a spanner in their works, rather than simply getting on with doing what they do best. Therefore, if you're genuinely good in your chosen profession, and have a determined attitude to succeed, you'll always win more battles than you'll lose.
Trouble is, not everyone gets to find out what their real talents are, let alone the chance to exploit them...
Marco.
Spot on, and it can often be a tricky balance to get right. Also, and I'm a firm believer in this, if you're *genuinely good* at what you do, and apply yourself correctly, you'll rise to the top and be successful, no matter how much of a "threat" anyone else is, simply because you have the self-confidence and belief in your own ability. That's what I've always found in life.
It's only the inferior/inadequates who worry about what others are doing, and try to put a spanner in their works, rather than simply getting on with doing what they do best. Therefore, if you're genuinely good in your chosen profession, and have a determined attitude to succeed, you'll always win more battles than you'll lose.
Trouble is, not everyone gets to find out what their real talents are, let alone the chance to exploit them...
Marco.
well that does depend. If you are in a position where the folk your working with dont like you your chances are small. Alas many folk are just not especially "likable" instantly thus suffer accordingly. Ive both seen it and felt it.
Nowt queer as folk, as my gran used to say.
Sure, you can't do much about such fundamental personality clashes, although in general I find that whether an employer likes you or not, and considers you'll provide what they're after, is usually revealed at the interview stage - that is if the interview process has been thorough.
Plus, smart people, who are confident in their own ability, tend to realise quite quickly when things aren't working out, and will leave for pastures new before they're pushed. I did that a few times in my career, as it was patently obvious that no matter how good a job I did, I was never going to 'fit in'.
Marco.
Sure, you can't do much about such fundamental personality clashes, although in general I find that whether an employer likes you or not, and considers you'll provide what they're after, is usually revealed at the interview stage - that is if the interview process has been thorough.
Plus, smart people, who are confident in their own ability, tend to realise quite quickly when things aren't working out, and will leave for pastures new before they're pushed. I did that a few times in my career, as it was patently obvious that no matter how good a job I did, I was never going to 'fit in'.
Marco.
yup i ve done that too.. always easier to pick a decent job when your currently employed as the future employer sees you as above the dross. :)
Sure, you can't do much about such fundamental personality clashes, although in general I find that whether an employer likes you or not, and considers you'll provide what they're after, is usually revealed at the interview stage - that is if the interview process has been thorough.
Plus, smart people, who are confident in their own ability, tend to realise quite quickly when things aren't working out, and will leave for pastures new before they're pushed. I did that a few times in my career, as it was patently obvious that no matter how good a job I did, I was never going to 'fit in'.
Marco.
Don’t forget the law of devolution though,people only promote someone bigger and thicker than themselves,thus they’ve got someone who will have the “muscle” to back them up,but is never clever enough to leapfrog them in the company!
Don’t forget the law of devolution though,people only promote someone bigger and thicker than themselves,thus they’ve got someone who will have the “muscle” to back them up,but is never clever enough to leapfrog them in the company!
oh so true;)
Don’t forget the law of devolution though,people only promote someone bigger and thicker than themselves,thus they’ve got someone who will have the “muscle” to back them up,but is never clever enough to leapfrog them in the company!
Sure Lee, but like I said, the best people - those who are confident in their own ability - don't worry about stuff like that, or rather don't allow it to adversely affect their careers, in the long term.
They simply keep on doing what they do best, and in the right environment, the rewards will eventually come. Or as Grant says, if they've no chance of fitting in somewhere, no matter how good they are, then they have the gumption (a great word) to leave and seek pastures new, confident that they'll find something better:)
In my experience, winners [life's achievers] never lose in the long term, simply because they've got what it takes (a steely determination) to succeed and achieve their goals! However, not everyone has that level of determination, or mental toughness, to be able to handle life's knocks and turn negatives into positives, thus giving them the best chance to succeed.
Having a positive mental attitude [glass half-full, rather than half-empty mentality], and a willingness not to be beaten, can be a massive asset, not only in your career, but in life in general.
Marco.
Generally speaking:
Women will hire/promote other women unless they have no option - unless the woman in question is better looking than they are.
Men will hire attractive women as a priority over anything else but won't necessarily promote them.
Taller men move up faster.
Ugly women hire other ugly women.
If you are good at your job they'll leave you to do it forever rather than bump you up.
People who are big pals with the boss outside of work have more chance of being bumped up. Male or female.
Experience, business-sense, ability and achievements are rarely taken into account by any management. If you achieve something they will take the credit, they will never tell anyone higher up the food chain it was down to you.
The Peter Principle always applies.
Although yours is a somewhat cynical view, I broadly agree. However, the third one only applies if you're a neanderthal, and in that respect I'm glad to see more and more women getting into higher management positions now, and in general more positions of authority - and long may it continue!
Marco.
Sounds like something from one of those awful self-help books, Marco.
The reality is that too many factors can conspire against you no matter how positive your mental attitude. And none of them have anything to do with what you achieve or how capable you are, see the list above. The real world of 'business' is far more mundane and career success has nothing to do with ability, experience or results unless you are in the happy position of working for yourself.
example - one place I worked a supervisor role came up, 9 months maternity cover. Looked like an easy job and it was a fair few grand more so I applied. Turned out there were two other female candidates. Neither had anything like my experience or track record but the decision was to be made by 2 female managers so I realised I was on a hiding to nothing.
In the interview they asked me how I would cope with the extra workload. I told them my main worry was that the job was so easy I'd be bored*. 'Oh no, it's very hard and a lot of work' they say.
So I went and asked the bird who was leaving for maternity if this was true. She thought it was really funny and told me that in fact she had to do next to nothing.
Needless to say the position went to one of the female candidates who then immediately went off sick, came back for a few days, went on leave, came back for a few days, went of sick again. She was probably there for about 4 weeks of the nine months in total.
* this is another good tip, never come across as relaxed and confident. They want to hire worriers and they like to promote worriers. A lot of people are crap at their jobs and lie awake at night worrying that they will be found out and sacked. Especially managers. Relaxed and confident people to them are just people who don't care if they are sacked.
Although yours is a somewhat cynical view, I broadly agree. However, the third one only applies if you're a neanderthal, and in that respect I'm glad to see more and more women getting into higher management positions now, and in general more positions of authority - and long may it continue!
Marco.
I'm generalising but IME women tend to prioritise following rules and procedures even when they make no sense and are costing the company money. They don't focus on results. Their main concern is that if things go tits-up and questions are asked they can demonstrate that they have ticked all the boxes and therefore cannot be to blame.
Males in general have a more cavalier attitude, they don't care how you get the results providing you get the results. With the increase of women in positions of responsibility we have moved to a environment were the job is about ticking the boxes rather than getting results, and I think this is partly to blame for the general deterioration in standards of service across both public and private sectors that we have seen over the past twenty years.
I mean I've had some rubbish male managers and some good female ones so it is not an absolute thing. But in general women are more likely to be worriers and that does not make for
good outcomes.
Only had 2 Female bosses, although you would call them overseers probably as they were not that far up tree. Both were terrible at working with folk; as Martin says if the rules said 10 folk doing a job the 10 folk would de the job, even if none of them could actually do it, while the folk that could have done it were used to to do something they were not qualified to do.
But they had followed the check list:doh:
not saying they are all like that by any mens, just my small experience was so similar
Sounds like something from one of those awful self-help books, Marco.
Ha - well, that approach has worked for me and plenty of others I know!
Having a positive mental attitude in life, I believe is overall a massive asset, and nothing will convince me otherwise, simply because experience bears it out. However, that said, I don't dispute your own personal experiences to the contrary. For me, life is largely what you make of it, and that includes how successful your career is or otherwise, and in the end the genuinely good guys usually win:)
* this is another good tip, never come across as relaxed and confident. They want to hire worriers and they like to promote worriers. A lot of people are crap at their jobs and lie awake at night worrying that they will be found out and sacked. Especially managers. Relaxed and confident people to them are just people who don't care if they are sacked.
In general, I understand where you're coming from, but if you're in sales, like you are, and I was [certainly in jobs when the wage you take home relies solely on how many sales you've made], not being relaxed and confident is without doubt a recipe for failure. Therefore, what you're saying largely depends on the profession you're in.
Marco.
walpurgis
01-04-2019, 12:57
I really dislike being accountable to others, but I toyed with the idea of working again, as some extra money is always handy, but eventually decided against it.
As for women, my experience of them in civil engineering is that they are pretty thorough and by the book. Unfortunately, when things go pear shaped and don't match their 'model' of what they've been taught, they don't cope well and panic, whereas blokes tend to 'fly by the seat of their pants' and use their instincts to sort a cock up or disaster.
Ha - well, that approach has worked for me and plenty of others I know!
Having a positive mental attitude in life, I believe is overall a massive asset, and nothing will convince me otherwise, simply because experience bears it out. However, that said, I don't dispute your own personal experiences to the contrary. For me, life is largely what you make of it, and that includes how successful your career is or otherwise, and in the end the genuinely good guys usually win:)
In general, I understand where you're coming from, but if you're in sales, like you are, and I was [certainly in jobs when the wage you take home relies solely on how many sales you've made], not being relaxed and confident is without doubt a recipe for failure. Therefore, what you're saying largely depends on the profession you're in.
Marco.
Yes I agree Sales is different and possibly the only arena left where results and not box ticking is still the primary metric and where being confident and relaxed is vital.
BTW I've not worked in Sales since 2006
Minstrel SE
01-04-2019, 15:02
Yes you have all made some great points. Macca hits the bullseye with this
"The reality is that too many factors can conspire against you no matter how positive your mental attitude. And none of them have anything to do with what you achieve or how capable you are, see the list above. The real world of 'business' is far more mundane and career success has nothing to do with ability, experience or results unless you are in the happy position of working for yourself "
A good post Martin. It is who you know and a face fits situation. Im talking about fall back positions while I think about the future.
Ive previously come out of a place where I was viciously bullied by a 4ft, elderly female owner. I never thought I could say that at my age but its true. Supposedly I was doing a good job in reports but she wanted me out for some personal reason she never informed me about
Im fed up with the politics and the games. Im fed up of arriving at places with a positive attitude and wondering how some of these people are even employed there. You know...what do they actually think of me if they are employing people like that. Theres very few of them I would have employed and it just seems to be so random...Then it quickly dawns that they dont give a stuff about me and dont even pretend to.
Im not bigging myself up because Im actually humble but I scare some of them because Im fairly well spoken and have worked in an office (as if that's a big deal!) I'm as thick as a brick but some of those people make me look like Einstein which is scary!
There is no fall back position in todays market. You have to be super qualified or working for yourself.
Everything else has just reverted back to dog eat dog
Yes I agree Sales is different and possibly the only arena left where results and not box ticking is still the primary metric and where being confident and relaxed is vital.
BTW I've not worked in Sales since 2006
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Thought you were still involved in sales.
Sales is definitely different, which is why a good salesman should never be out of work!
Marco.
Martin [Minstrel], you're no doubt better acquainted with the current climate in the job market than me, as I've not dabbled there for years, having been self-employed since 1994 and now semi-retired.
However, if what you say is true, and I don't doubt it, then all I can say is it's changed days since I went for job interviews, as back then the focus was definitely on one's relevant ability/experience, little else, although of course the 'who you know' angle was still relevant, as ever.
So one wonders what has caused such a sea-change in attitude among employers, in terms of what they're looking for now, from those whom they employ, and also what it takes to succeed in today's working environment, or maybe what I experienced years ago was just lucky, and not the norm even then (based on the fact that in those days I was living up in Scotland)?:hmm:
Marco.
These days they like to see 'professional qualifications' no matter how mickey mouse they are. That's so if you turn out to be terrible whoever hired you has the excuse of 'Well they had the qualifications.'
My line of work now they are especially keen on it. Despite the fact that the people who are qualified are usually clueless. I could never be bothered to do the exams, costs a bomb as well and you have to keep paying every year or it lapses.
jandl100
01-04-2019, 17:44
Martin [Minstrel], you're no doubt better acquainted with the current climate in the job market than me, as I've not dabbled there for years, having been self-employed since 1994 and now semi-retired.
However, if what you say is true, and I don't doubt it, then all I can say is it's changed days since I went for job interviews, as back then the focus was definitely on one's relevant ability/experience, little else, although of course the 'who you know' angle was still relevant, as ever.
So one wonders what has caused such a sea-change in attitude among employers, in terms of what they're looking for now, from those whom they employ, and also what it takes to succeed in today's working environment, or maybe what I experienced years ago was just lucky, and not the norm even then (based on the fact that in those days I was living up in Scotland)?:hmm:
Marco.
+1
I don't recognise any of this stuff from when I was at work, either == 1980-2001 ish.
Large IT services company, personal success / failure was largely dependent on ability to do all aspects of the job.
Job applicants were judged solely on their perceived ability to do the job and progress successfully.
And that was in the south east UK.
Minstrel SE
01-04-2019, 21:58
Well its crazy now. They lie to get you in and have no trouble marching you out within a week...and its basically F off and we may not be bothered to pay you for time served.
Everything that can be outsourced is so you get crazy situations where a telecoms provider is paying another (giant agency) company to run a callcentre Somebody is cashing in big time as employees are not seeing the allocated pay and can be fired on the spot.
This leads to giant outsourcing companies taking over the world...its all going pear shaped
Read the indeed reviews about Royal Mail (acme carriers)...its reported as slave labour by some...... part time creeping well into full time hours...favouritism, bullying and no union power......Its all disintegrated now into absolutely no work life balance and employers that expect the earth for little reward
If a company has a management stucture peaking at 22 years of age nobody else will get a look in. Not that you would want to because these kids are treated like garbage by other kids on 30p and hour more. These youngsters are more likely to put up with it than older workers and thats the main reason why. A certain pub chain springs to mind but there are plenty of others.
Macca is right in that they want mickey mouse qualifications to show you can pick up a phone/pen and speak politely. Then they mostly hire upstarts or chavs for want of a better word. So you come in with years of experience and you are surrounded by kids treating it all like a party down at the pub.
Eh but dont worry because dress down, pizza friday is coming and they have a cheap pool table by the drinks machine :)
Only youve failed from the start because nothing is ever right and the rules are changing everyday like hours and bonuses. Its now about keeping people scared and micromanaging everything.
As Gloria Gaynor said I will survive...What cant kill you makes you stronger. I have a pension coming soon but its not the pension pot that will take me to a villa in Marbella :)
You had a pool table and pizza on a Friday? Luxury!
From Marco;
"Spot on, and it can often be a tricky balance to get right. Also, and I'm a firm believer in this, if you're *genuinely good* at what you do, and apply yourself correctly, you'll rise to the top and be successful, no matter how much of a "threat" anyone else is, simply because you have the self-confidence and belief in your own ability. That's what I've always found in life.
It's only the inferior/inadequates who worry about what others are doing, and try to put a spanner in their works, rather than simply getting on with doing what they do best. Therefore, if you're genuinely good in your chosen profession, and have a determined attitude to succeed, you'll always win more battles than you'll lose.
Trouble is, not everyone gets to find out what their real talents are, let alone the chance to exploit them..."
I'm sorry Marco, but this is so fundamentally flawed that I have to respond.
The meritocratic principle used at least to be referred to, if not adhered to, to an extent, and that adherence is less so now IMO.
Hidden agendas, not so hidden, are always working, (personal politics), and this overrides meritocracy for the obvious reasons of survival.
I am not wishing to be self indulgent, but I cite the following of my many personal experiences.
Whilst with COI, a project was started called the "Protect Your Home Campaign" which required several short radio 'sketches' to be produced, they meant to alert the public to the threat of burglars. They involved recording actuality, and mixing this into the sound 'sketches' which were to be played on Radios 1, 2, 3, 4, Capital and LBC.
I was on probations at the time, and all the other sound recordists said when approached by the producer, Sarah Miles, the daughter of Michael Miles, that they were too difficult to do. I was asked to do them, which I did, and they went out successfully. I was then sacked with a letter saying that this was so for reasons which had already been explained to me, but no reasons were ever given to me. Sarah Miles said that the others were jealous of my ability.
I also fault found at the Treasury whilst we recorded press conferences from Heath and Whitelaw, whilst the others, not having a clue, were dithering and panicking, 'biting their nails'.
I would suggest that anther reason for failure, as is so in my case is the almost complete disbelief in one's ability, in my case conferred upon me by my Father's continuous disparagement, derision, denigration, and physical abuse and this became embedded into my nuclear personality. My lack of self belief in my ability sabotaged my career well into my late 20s, at which point, my then girlfriend paid for me to be assessed by Career Analysts Ltd in four hours of tests.
After these I was told by them that I had a very high I.Q. and could study anything.
What employers want is not a worrier so much, but that which this is often an index of, deferentiality.
I could write so much more about this, because my whole career has been dogged by this situation, and I should have believed in myself early on and pursued a non corporate career in which any talent I had, produced results with which I could be a success.
Those in corporations have little concern for them, and often seek to exploit them for all they can, they often having little ability, and this trait results in a corporate persona which if not adhered to, produces castigation and outcasting of the non adherent. They have in a sense, 'sold their souls'.
Macca has made many good and accurate points IMO.
Lastly, I remember hearing on Capital radio, in the 70s, a woman being interviewed about success, and she had a very high I.Q. and a PhD. She said that she used her looks to get on because the other factors got her nowhere.
This sentiment has also been echoed on the R4 political programme Any Questions, in which a speaker ridiculed the assertion that if you have talent it will eventually result in recognition.
anthonyTD
02-04-2019, 10:35
Hi Dennis,
Good post, and I can relate to some of what you refer to from my younger days of working for other companies, which is one of the main reasons I ended up doing what I do now, and never wanted to be a part of that system again!
From Marco;
"Spot on, and it can often be a tricky balance to get right. Also, and I'm a firm believer in this, if you're *genuinely good* at what you do, and apply yourself correctly, you'll rise to the top and be successful, no matter how much of a "threat" anyone else is, simply because you have the self-confidence and belief in your own ability. That's what I've always found in life.
It's only the inferior/inadequates who worry about what others are doing, and try to put a spanner in their works, rather than simply getting on with doing what they do best. Therefore, if you're genuinely good in your chosen profession, and have a determined attitude to succeed, you'll always win more battles than you'll lose.
Trouble is, not everyone gets to find out what their real talents are, let alone the chance to exploit them..."
I'm sorry Marco, but this is so fundamentally flawed that I have to respond.
The meritocratic principle used at least to be referred to, if not adhered to, to an extent, and that adherence is less so now IMO.
Hidden agendas, not so hidden, are always working, (personal politics), and this overrides meritocracy for the obvious reasons of survival.
I am not wishing to be self indulgent, but I cite the following of my many personal experiences.
Whilst with COI, a project was started called the "Protect Your Home Campaign" which required several short radio 'sketches' to be produced, they meant to alert the public to the threat of burglars. They involved recording actuality, and mixing this into the sound 'sketches' which were to be played on Radios 1, 2, 3, 4, Capital and LBC.
I was on probations at the time, and all the other sound recordists said when approached by the producer, Sarah Miles, the daughter of Michael Miles, that they were too difficult to do. I was asked to do them, which I did, and they went out successfully. I was then sacked with a letter saying that this was so for reasons which had already been explained to me, but no reasons were ever given to me. Sarah Miles said that the others were jealous of my ability.
I also fault found at the Treasury whilst we recorded press conferences from Heath and Whitelaw, whilst the others, not having a clue, were dithering and panicking, 'biting their nails'.
I would suggest that anther reason for failure, as is so in my case is the almost complete disbelief in one's ability, in my case conferred upon me by my Father's continuous disparagement, derision, denigration, and physical abuse and this became embedded into my nuclear personality. My lack of self belief in my ability sabotaged my career well into my late 20s, at which point, my then girlfriend paid for me to be assessed by Career Analysts Ltd in four hours of tests.
After these I was told by them that I had a very high I.Q. and could study anything.
What employers want is not a worrier so much, but that which this is often an index of, deferentiality.
I could write so much more about this, because my whole career has been dogged by this situation, and I should have believed in myself early on and pursued a non corporate career in which any talent I had, produced results with which I could be a success.
Those in corporations have little concern for them, and often seek to exploit them for all they can, they often having little ability, and this trait results in a corporate persona which if not adhered to, produces castigation and outcasting of the non adherent. They have in a sense, 'sold their souls'.
Macca has made many good and accurate points IMO.
Lastly, I remember hearing on Capital radio, in the 70s, a woman being interviewed about success, and she had a very high I.Q. and a PhD. She said that she used her looks to get on because the other factors got her nowhere.
This sentiment has also been echoed on the R4 political programme Any Questions, in which a speaker ridiculed the assertion that if you have talent it will eventually result in recognition.
Hi Dennis,
Yes indeed, good post. I would disagree that what I wrote is fundamentally flawed, as it's what I practiced myself (and also others I know, who like me have enjoyed a relatively happy and successful career), so those combined experiences would tend to suggest that the approach I've outlined isn't fundamentally flawed, just different from what you've known. Ultimately, what's likely to work or otherwise in life, is simply down to the person concerned and their particular circumstances.
Therefore, you're entitled to your opinion and to disagree with me, which I respect, as the opposite has been the case in your experience. I had a very different upbringing from you [the complete opposite, really], and I'm saddened to hear of what you went through, so that's bound to have influenced and shaped our respective views of the world we've grown up in, and also know now:)
Marco.
Hi Dennis,
Yes indeed, good post. I would disagree that what I wrote is fundamentally flawed, as it's what I practiced myself (and also others I know, who like me have enjoyed a relatively happy and successful career), .
Not really. The fact remains you can have a positive attitude and work your arse off all your life and still get absolutely nowhere due entirely to bad fortune.
This was why 'meritocracy' was originally coined as a derogatory term. Because in a meritocracy the successful think that their success is entirely down to themselves and their abilities and has nothing to do with good fortune.
Whereas in fact it is probably 20% them and 80% luck. And they will also regard those who have not succeeded as useless and lazy as opposed to just people who are unluckier than they have been.
Your posts are illustrating Malcolm Young's argument against a meritocracy quite well.
Not really. The fact remains you can have a positive attitude and work your arse off all your life and still get absolutely nowhere due entirely to bad fortune.
This was why 'meritocracy' was originally coined as a derogatory term. Because in a meritocracy the successful think that their success is entirely down to themselves and their abilities and has nothing to do with good fortune.
Whereas in fact it is probably 20% them and 80% luck. And they will also regard those who have not succeeded as useless and lazy as opposed to just people who are unluckier than they have been.
Your posts are illustrating Malcolm Young's argument against a meritocracy quite well.
I'm not denying that, or disagreeing with anything else you've written, and certainly not disputing the role played of good fortune. However, that doesn't dismiss the validity, in some instances, of what I wrote earlier. I still fundamentally believe that, to an extent, you make your own luck in life, simply by having a positive attitude and applying yourself in the right way.
Marco.
wee tee cee
02-04-2019, 16:03
Im all for equality of opportunity(meritocracy in old speak).
Equality of opportunity is a reprehensible doctrine.....and i do mean doctrine, its nothing short of an ideology.
Group identity and targets are the virtue signalling poison of most modern organisations both private and public.
im saddened to have seen realy great people overlooked for years over those that tick diversity boxes.
It serves none of us well...it engenders resentment and mediocrity in those of positions of power.
I'm not denying that, or disagreeing with anything else you've written, and certainly not disputing the role played of good fortune. However, that doesn't dismiss the validity, in some instances, of what I wrote earlier. I still fundamentally believe that, to an extent, you make your own luck in life, simply by having a positive attitude and applying yourself in the right way.
Marco.
Hard to distinguish between luck you made yourself and the luck that just comes along though.
I agree that if you have a negative attitude and/or are afraid of hard work then you've pretty much got no chance of getting anywhere.
Im all for equality of opportunity(meritocracy in old speak).
Equality of opportunity is a reprehensible doctrine.....and i do mean doctrine, its nothing short of an ideology.
Group identity and targets are the virtue signalling poison of most modern organisations both private and public.
im saddened to have seen realy great people overlooked for years over those that tick diversity boxes.
It serves none of us well...it engenders resentment and mediocrity in those of positions of power.
Virtue signalling is probably the worst thing about our current society. And it's everywhere.
Hard to distinguish between luck you made yourself and the luck that just comes along though.
I agree that if you have a negative attitude and/or are afraid of hard work then you've pretty much got no chance of getting anywhere.
On that we're in full agreement:)
Btw, what is "virtue signalling" in plain English?
Marco.
On that we're in full agreement:)
Btw, what is "virtue signalling" in plain English?
Marco.
'The action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.'
Pigmy Pony
02-04-2019, 17:30
Hard to distinguish between luck you made yourself and the luck that just comes along though.
I agree that if you have a negative attitude and/or are afraid of hard work then you've pretty much got no chance of getting anywhere.
Yes, you need a 'can do' approach to have any chance. The really hard thing is to maintain a positive attitude throughout when life is constantly shitting on you - I know they managed it on "Little House on the Prairie", but they could put it down to "God's plan", not office politics or some such bullshit. Happy days!
'The action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.'
Thanks, I'm with you now:)
Marco.
The really hard thing is to maintain a positive attitude throughout when life is constantly shitting on you - I know they managed it on "Little House on the Prairie", but they could put it down to "God's plan", not office politics or some such bullshit. Happy days!
As a practising Christian (Catholic), who so far, overall, has enjoyed a healthy, happy and rewarding life, I'm saying nothing...;)
Marco.
Minstrel SE
02-04-2019, 23:25
Dennis has wriiten a great piece. I am just saying that jealousy and power games can outweigh hard work and any talent for the job.
Ive just faced a shitstorm and had to leave my job. I didnt realise my direct manger was after a promotion and he saw me as a threat. I started working alongside him doing the same job and he was my manager then so you can imagine I got all the mundane crap to do while he stood at the bar. Suddenly he got that promotion and I realised he was brown nosing all the time at my expense
It would never have worked for me and I realise they were two faced from the start. With hindsight its crystal clear but obviously Im trying to hold down a job at the time. It was like a Salem witch hunt and they would go to the owner and make up tall tales to keep the spotlight away from themselves
It didnt matter how good I was. I was not out to upset the apple cart but thats what they feared the most. If they have a cosy little number they will run others down to protect it.
There were people who got their rocks off purely by trying to get others the sack.
I think you can start making your own luck when you work hard at being self employed.
Pigmy Pony
03-04-2019, 06:15
If you have a marketable skill then self employed is the way to go, gets you away from the "office politics" and back biting, but it does come with its own issues, fluctuating income being the main one. But all things considered, I'm glad I did. It's taken a long time to go from a graphic artist/film planner who couldn.t knock a nail in to someone who can be trusted to fit windows, and doors, and undertake various other tasks. But I was lucky (there it is again) that my brother could take me on part time doing repairs and remedials in his double glazing firm, and then gradually build up my skill set.
When you are not directly competing with others for the work it's amazing just how helpful and accommodating folk can be. When I do work for a customer and they ask if I can for example fit a kitchen or build a wall, I will never say yes just to get the work - I have friends in the trade whom I like and trust, who I would recommend, and they do similarly for me. So there's the bit about "who you know" being important. I find that being honest and respectful in your dealings with others while still enjoying some banter, goes a long way.
Never going to get rich doing this, but through referrals from existing customers (never had to advertise) I can make a living, and I don't dread Mondays.
Minstrel SE
03-04-2019, 14:59
Its a question of what marketable skill will get my phone ringing often enough
When I was on a trade course there were people there who said thay would be helping their bother or dad out for a while. The rest of us could see that we were being taught nothing unique and would have to start marketing ourselves from scratch in a competitive market.
Then the first thing the customer wants to see is a portfolio and record of time served
I realised that I cant do joinery any better than 100 other guys in the local area so its all about how I would stand out.
Lets face it that nobody really wants my competition so they are not teaching me anything special but charging a pretty penny for it.
I know people who can build and veneer bespoke cabinets and they were struggling to make it work. The tooling up costs can be eye watering based on what can amount to a whim and a prayer.
The main man who does picture framing round here set up a shop with inheritance money. He is very skilled indeed and its been developed from a keen hobby......the next guy in the area sets up a very basic market stall on a friday while his wife sits in a £300 Vitara reading the paper...looks like a bit of a cowboy to be honest
Point is you have to get in at some sort of commited level or earn buttons from it. Luck does come into it unless you have the skills and exclusivity that people can just not do without
Pigmy Pony
03-04-2019, 15:38
Hi Martin,
As I've said before, luck plays a massive part, and knowing the right people too. I fact it's more than important, I'd say it's essential. You said in an earlier post that you did a tiling course, what led you to do that? And if you decided that you just don't like it fair enough. But most people know someone who is in a trade of some sort, including tiling.
One way into something is to labour for a tradesman, and although the pay might be piss poor, it's better than nothing, and if you show aptitude and willingness, your skills can gradually build up until you can do jobs for them unsupervised, and progress from there. I'm sorry if it sounds a bit condescending, that is not my intention, but it is broadly how things went for me. As I said before I don't make big money, £120 a day when on a day rate, but when on my own jobs obviously more.
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