View Full Version : The vagaries of vinyl
Hi
The last few weeks of my (re) introduction to vinyl have been very interesting and not without their twists and turns. One of which is the wide variation in the quality of pressings. In many ways this was expected but certain surprises have also been thrown up. For example, I have two- mint to the eye- 1st UK pressings of Don McClean's 'American Pie', identical issue numbers etc and while one is clear, dynamic and well balanced the other is veiled, dull and very one- dimensional. Both have been carefully cleaned and are visibly immaculate. The same goes for a mint 1st pressing of the Smith's 'Strangeways Here We Come'- playing, it sounds like a blanket has been thrown over the speakers, while another tattier version of the same recording is much more listenable. Why such variation? Given they are second-hand and relatively 'old' perhaps they've been cleaned with bleach or god knows what, but could it be the pressings themselves?
Furthermore, there is the lottery of the secondhand market. 'Mint' advertised copies may appear so to the eye but many I've purchased come with assorted clicks and pops that would suggest otherwise. That's the chance we take of course but I'm beginning to think I'd be better investing in new copies that are recognised as being high quality pressings. Is anyone aware of decent sites online specialising in quality pressings and re-releases? Scott Nagle's site is one but any other suggestions would be appreciated...
Vinyl pressings even of the same record can vary tremendously depending on where and when they were pressed.
I bought a new copy of Dark side of the Moon recently and it sounded like the pressing plates had worn out. It was flat and lifeless. I have an original but it is massively scratched so risky to play but I did listen to a snippet and it was worlds apart.
Can be the pressings, can also be wear. If it's been played a lot of times on some old clunker you'll lose all the top end. I've got an Elton John record like that. But there's nowt else wrong with it. Not a pop or a click. It was only a quid thankfully.
Pierre De Grenoble
18-03-2019, 09:19
I suspect that wear on the stampers that press the record has more to do with "lifeless" sounding mint looking vinyl.
I'd love to know how many records were pressed on average per stamper. (it's the nerd in me :D)
Pure pleasure records ltd, s site is very good. They are a label who also do Speakers corner but sell too.
http://www.purepleasurerecords.com/pure_pleasure_store.html#!/Nina-Simone-Little-Girl-Blue/p/31004248/category=6792756
Crackles
18-03-2019, 15:08
Pure pleasure records ltd, s site is very good. They are a label who also do Speakers corner but sell too.
http://www.purepleasurerecords.com/pure_pleasure_store.html#!/Nina-Simone-Little-Girl-Blue/p/31004248/category=6792756Not heard of that site before. Funny enough I've been meaning to get a new copy of Little Girl Blue to replace my crappy DOL copy. Not familiar with the Bethlehem label though?
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Bethlehem was the original label it was on. It will be good.
WESTLOWER
18-03-2019, 15:50
Pure pleasure records ltd, s site is very good. They are a label who also do Speakers corner but sell too.
http://www.purepleasurerecords.com/pure_pleasure_store.html#!/Nina-Simone-Little-Girl-Blue/p/31004248/category=6792756
Same site does a great reissue of Clifford Jordon's Classic, ...Glass Bead Games. for me one of the top 5 records ever made!.
Original is ££ so this is a real treat reissue!
Same site does a great reissue of Clifford Jordon's Classic, ...Glass Bead Games. for me one of the top 5 records ever made!.
Original is ££ so this is a real treat reissue!
great call, its in my basket for next time. ive got a copy of Blue Rose(Rosemary Clooney and Duke Ellington) on its way from them at moment :eyebrows:
Same site does a great reissue of Clifford Jordon's Classic, ...Glass Bead Games. for me one of the top 5 records ever made!.
Original is ££ so this is a real treat reissue!
great call, its in my basket for next time. ive got a copy of Blue Rose(Rosemary Clooney and Duke Ellington) on its way from them at moment :eyebrows:
WESTLOWER
18-03-2019, 16:58
great call, its in my basket for next time. ive got a copy of Blue Rose(Rosemary Clooney and Duke Ellington) on its way from them at moment :eyebrows:
:cool:
Pure pleasure records ltd, s site is very good. They are a label who also do Speakers corner but sell too.
http://www.purepleasurerecords.com/pure_pleasure_store.html#!/Nina-Simone-Little-Girl-Blue/p/31004248/category=6792756
Ideal, thanks!
Crackles
19-03-2019, 21:51
Pure pleasure records ltd, s site is very good. They are a label who also do Speakers corner but sell too.
http://www.purepleasurerecords.com/pure_pleasure_store.html#!/Nina-Simone-Little-Girl-Blue/p/31004248/category=6792756Can't believe I've never heard of this site before. Thanks for sharing [emoji106]
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magiccarpetride
19-03-2019, 23:17
Hi
The last few weeks of my (re) introduction to vinyl have been very interesting and not without their twists and turns. One of which is the wide variation in the quality of pressings. In many ways this was expected but certain surprises have also been thrown up. For example, I have two- mint to the eye- 1st UK pressings of Don McClean's 'American Pie', identical issue numbers etc and while one is clear, dynamic and well balanced the other is veiled, dull and very one- dimensional. Both have been carefully cleaned and are visibly immaculate. The same goes for a mint 1st pressing of the Smith's 'Strangeways Here We Come'- playing, it sounds like a blanket has been thrown over the speakers, while another tattier version of the same recording is much more listenable. Why such variation? Given they are second-hand and relatively 'old' perhaps they've been cleaned with bleach or god knows what, but could it be the pressings themselves?
Furthermore, there is the lottery of the secondhand market. 'Mint' advertised copies may appear so to the eye but many I've purchased come with assorted clicks and pops that would suggest otherwise. That's the chance we take of course but I'm beginning to think I'd be better investing in new copies that are recognised as being high quality pressings. Is anyone aware of decent sites online specialising in quality pressings and re-releases? Scott Nagle's site is one but any other suggestions would be appreciated...
I prefer to buy used vinyl locally. All the record stores I frequent have turntables where you can give it a spin and listen to the LPs to assess their condition. The downside of course is unpredictable selection, but sometimes that's a positive thing, as I discover some nice records that otherwise I'd never consider purchasing.
Just wondering whether dull sounding copies could have been owned by a smoker?
I don't think that standard record cleaning (very small amount of surfactant) would remove any tar if it had been in a smokey environment.
You could check out my theory by wiping one of the bad ones with a cotton bud soaked in IPA or similar? (or sniff the covers!)
I raise this point as I used to smoke - many years ago - and I was surprised/disgusted by the thin layer of tar that I kept on finding on various household items even years later.
Just wondering whether dull sounding copies could have been owned by a smoker?
I don't think that standard record cleaning (very small amount of surfactant) would remove any tar if it had been in a smokey environment.
You could check out my theory by wiping one of the bad ones with a cotton bud soaked in IPA or similar? (or sniff the covers!)
I raise this point as I used to smoke - many years ago - and I was surprised/disgusted by the thin layer of tar that I kept on finding on various household items even years later.
I’ve had much success removing nicotine from old records. And it’s probably one of the most common forms of pollution on your records. Certain ones that were excessively dirty, I’ll also give it a good cleaning with my Enzyme formula cleaner, and the waste water shows about the color of tea, apparently the nicotine coloring the water. And of course the proof is in the playback! A badly soiled record can take 3 cleanings or more before the waste water looks clean. I use plain old MoFi brand fluids in my Pro-Ject RCM, so far the only thing it won’t remove are scratches.
It’s true that old records that were played on a child’s record player, or record players from before the 1950’s, can be worn out by the needle. But modern record players that use a tracking force of less than 2grams, I don’t think you could ever wear a record out with it? As records I’ve owned for near 40 years and had literally hundreds of plays can be cleaned up to sound like new!
Russell
Just wondering whether dull sounding copies could have been owned by a smoker?
I don't think that standard record cleaning (very small amount of surfactant) would remove any tar if it had been in a smokey environment.
You could check out my theory by wiping one of the bad ones with a cotton bud soaked in IPA or similar? (or sniff the covers!)
I raise this point as I used to smoke - many years ago - and I was surprised/disgusted by the thin layer of tar that I kept on finding on various household items even years later.
They record's are pristine, with no tar residue, yet dull s dishwater sounding...
Could be bad stamps fro.m end of a stampers life
Primalsea
21-03-2019, 21:48
Could be bad stamps fro.m end of a stampers life
I think sometimes it's also the quality or properties of the vinyl used as well. Some newer records, even heavyweight seem like the surface is not as hard as some of the older and much more flimsy records that I have that sound great.
I think sometimes it's also the quality or properties of the vinyl used as well. Some newer records, even heavyweight seem like the surface is not as hard as some of the older and much more flimsy records that I have that sound great.Been saying for years 50/60's vinyl was harder and less likely to scratch deep
I know I’ve gotten into it on the Vinyl Engine forum with members there, and it seems to me that here in the States we had a generally higher grade of record than many in Europe did. I got in a huge tiff with about a dozen of them because I swore I only had one record out of 600 that was non-concentric . The hole wasn’t in the middle, and even that one was only slight. And that I only had one or two that were warped. They flew off in disbelief and called me a liar! So, for what it’s worth, I seem to have had very good luck with the quality of most all of my vinyl, even used. Sure I’ve got my share of scratched, and poorly handled records, but as far as poor craftsmanship, no real issues.
I had about a dozen records I sprayed with Groove Glide back in about ‘79 or ‘80, and it didn’t seem to make much difference at the time. But here we are near 40 years later and it really helped preserve the records that were treated. I don’t know that the product is the same as it was back then? It’s not packaged as it was then, and I haven’t tried any since.
Russell
I know I’ve gotten into it on the Vinyl Engine forum with members there, and it seems to me that here in the States we had a generally higher grade of record than many in Europe did. I got in a huge tiff with about a dozen of them because I swore I only had one record out of 600 that was non-concentric . The hole wasn’t in the middle, and even that one was only slight. And that I only had one or two that were warped. They flew off in disbelief and called me a liar! So, for what it’s worth, I seem to have had very good luck with the quality of most all of my vinyl, even used. Sure I’ve got my share of scratched, and poorly handled records, but as far as poor craftsmanship, no real issues.
I had about a dozen records I sprayed with Groove Glide back in about ‘79 or ‘80, and it didn’t seem to make much difference at the time. But here we are near 40 years later and it really helped preserve the records that were treated. I don’t know that the product is the same as it was back then? It’s not packaged as it was then, and I haven’t tried any since.
Russell
Interesting, I was under the impression that record grades, generally speaking. were/are higher in Europe than the States...
I agree - for the most part American pressings of '60s and '70s stuff were much better than their European conterparts. The sleeves were better, thicker and the seam didn't become unstuck as would often happen with UK printed sleeves.
For some reason US pressings were thicker and heavier, despite the oil embargo of the early seventies, causing the average weight of UK pressings to fall below 100g. That said, I do have an US import of an Ian Matthews recording where the gatefold sleeve is probably four times thicker than the LP itself!
Pierre De Grenoble
23-03-2019, 21:59
Interesting, I was under the impression that record grades, generally speaking. were/are higher in Europe than the States...
Puts the cat amongst the pidgeons but I nearly always prefer a UK/ Euro press to the contempory USA press.
US covers are thicker and heavier but tend to be held together by a very thin printed paper cover slick, which is usually non laminated leading to covers with dreadful surface wear and huge seam splits.
IMHO the USA pressings always seemed "bright" as well and more prone to surface. As for 45's I don't think any 70's UK issues were pressed using styrene which was common in the US because it was cheaper (and sounds it).
I was speaking of pressing quality, fairly consistent pressings, rare to see a record non-concentric. Or as was spoken of earlier, pressings that were dull, as if the pressing master was overused. Some records were made warped perhaps? But most warps are due to poor handling, stacking then sideways, leaving them in the attic where it gets hot , etc. so I’m not sure that issue applies here?
If there was ever any difference in sound quality, I wouldn’t know. I only own a very few import records, ( like 3) and usually don’t have a US pressing to compare it to, and that’s why I bought an import. I agree that if US pressings are brighter, or any other such consistent differences, the vinyl formula would definitely be the reason.
I read an article within the past 5 years or so talking about the new vinyl formulas being used to make these 180g records, and unlike how they did it back in the ‘60’s, they actually are designing it for durability and sound quality. Better vinyl! And it’s clear! They have to add the black to make them black, interesting stuff.
I know one of the people on the other forum that said I was lying, was located in Norway or Finland, somewhere up there, so I have no idea where his records were pressed for the most part? I’m sure quality varies even across countries in Europe. He claimed that a full one third of his records were non-concentric, some severe, to where you could hear the wowing sound as it played, and see the needle going side to side. I had some 78’s like that when I was a little kid.
Russell
I couldn't give you a number or a percentage but I do have at least several records (out of about 600) that have an off-centre hole. It only has to be slightly off-centre to have an effect.
I have never had an off centre hole but have had off centre pressing where the grooves have not been pressed square with the record. It cause terrible wow and flutter!
I've not had that. I do have a copy of Steely Dan 'Gold' where the stylus just skates across the record and won't play at all. I've no idea why that is, the disc looks to be in perfect condition. Anyone got any ideas?
Back in the 70's I was told (by a record shop assistant) to put a coin on the peadshell to cure this.
Not tried that but I did try banging the tracking weight up to maximum and that didn't help.
I've not had that. I do have a copy of Steely Dan 'Gold' where the stylus just skates across the record and won't play at all. I've no idea why that is, the disc looks to be in perfect condition. Anyone got any ideas?
badly pressed. grooves too shallow or too narrow
I have never had an off centre hole but have had off centre pressing where the grooves have not been pressed square with the record. It cause terrible wow and flutter!
got one fairly recently that is off a bit. makes you a bit seasick watching it. not too bad and i cant actually hear the wow
That would make sense. Bought it off of USA eBay so sending it back wasn't worth the bother.
got one fairly recently that is off a bit. makes you a bit seasick watching it. not too bad and i cant actually hear the wow
My badly pressed record was on London Grammar If you Wait and on some tracks Piano and voice sound very warbly.
Minstrel SE
27-03-2019, 19:51
Pink Floyd...The Wall....£25. latest reissue...A quiet point building up to the exclamation "Ive got a little black book with my poems in" and all I can hear is a thump as it rides over a lump in the vinyl for about six grooves.
£60 of original NOS stylus on an XLM III. £100 quid restoring this Dual with a mint base and lid. Motor bearings hot oil soaked £100 quids worth of keystrobe lightbeam designed for a Garrard 301 and I wonder what is the point
I was having some nostalgia fun but can clearly see why we need digital
Im thinking Origin Live arms, Denon moving coils and Im still going to get lumps in the bloody vinyl. Is it really worth going any further than a budget deck?
Pigmy Pony
28-03-2019, 07:11
Last year I got a vinyl copy of Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' album, and while the CD version is deathly quiet where it ought to be, the vinyl has several random noises which I can only describe as 'farts'. Either flaws in the vinyl, or less likely is that my turntable is better at exposing Gregory's flatulence. But the trumps sound more like something your cat would do, while I would expect Mr Porter's to be more baritone.
Before digital came along I never really noticed the pops and crackles of vinyl (unless it was really bad) - I think we have been spoiled. But there is much more to ownership and playing of records, so I will continue to buy and listen to records and try to hear through the shortcomings. I am becoming increasingly aware of the cost though, so at some point I will probably move more towards streaming.
Im thinking Origin Live arms, Denon moving coils and Im still going to get lumps in the bloody vinyl. Is it really worth going any further than a budget deck?
Yes it is but it's all or nothing. And be prepared to buy multiple copies and send bad copies back before you get one that can play without obvious flaws. They do exist. But it's a hell of a lot of aggravation and expense when there is a much cheaper alternative without all the aggravation. That's why ultimately I chose the nothing option and replaced all my favourite vinyl with CDs.
Sending back cds coz they skip or won't play.. Give it up and stream [emoji23]
Sending back cds coz they skip or won't play.. Give it up and stream [emoji23]
Never had that with a new one although I've trashed a couple over the years. So cheap now it's no big deal.
Before digital came along I never really noticed the pops and crackles of vinyl (unless it was really bad) - I think we have been spoiled.
Three words, mate: record cleaning machine. No serious 'vinylista' should be without one!
And yes, even brand new LPs aren't (deep) clean. There's always some gunk/residue left over from the pressing plant, invisible to the naked eye, but not to that wee lump of diamond, tracing the grooves!;)
I put *every* LP I buy, new or used, through the RCM before it gets near my T/T, consequently the vast majority of my collection is silent, in terms of clicks and pops, as aside from stuff that's brand new, I only ever buy used vinyl in near mint condition.
Therefore, I suspect that the noise you're hearing on the GP album would be resolved with a good run through an RCM:)
Marco.
Three words, mate: record cleaning machine. No serious 'vinylista' should be without one!
And yes, even brand new LPs aren't (deep) clean. There's always some gunk/residue left over from the pressing plant, invisible to the naked eye, but not to that wee lump of diamond, tracing the grooves!;)
I put *every* LP I buy, new or used, through the RCM before it gets near my T/T, consequently the vast majority of my collection is silent, in terms of clicks and pops, as aside from stuff that's brand new, I only ever buy used vinyl in near mint condition.
Therefore, I suspect that the noise you're hearing on the GP album would be resolved with a good run through an RCM:)
Marco.
I’ll second that! Word for word, exactly my own experience. Having a RCM adds a whole new dimension to playing vinyl, on average I hear very little to no surface noise. I’ve got Records I’ve had for 40 years, and after a thorough cleaning they have dead black backgrounds.
Russell
harmonica98
29-03-2019, 09:03
Three words, mate: record cleaning machine.
Therefore, I suspect that the noise you're hearing on the GP album would be resolved with a good run through an RCM:)
The noise described sounds more like non-fill to me therefore wouldn't be improved by a clean.
However, in general I agree and a RCM is essential.
I've just received a copy of Nina Simone 'Little Girl Blue' 200g Analogue Productions LP and Aretha Franklin's 'Aretha Gold' 180g 2 x 45rpm lps. Very expensive but the quality of the recordings are absolutely outstanding in every sense. It just shows how wonderful vinyl can be and, in consequence, how flawed it often is. Equipment/component concerns are most probably given far too much focus, sound quality largely depends on the input, ie the quality of the recording. My money's heading in that direction from now on...
Pigmy Pony
30-03-2019, 18:16
Three words, mate: record cleaning machine. No serious 'vinylista' should be without one!
And yes, even brand new LPs aren't (deep) clean. There's always some gunk/residue left over from the pressing plant, invisible to the naked eye, but not to that wee lump of diamond, tracing the grooves!;)
I put *every* LP I buy, new or used, through the RCM before it gets near my T/T, consequently the vast majority of my collection is silent, in terms of clicks and pops, as aside from stuff that's brand new, I only ever buy used vinyl in near mint condition.
Therefore, I suspect that the noise you're hearing on the GP album would be resolved with a good run through an RCM:)
Marco.
You're absolutely right, I'd love an RCM. But I'll just have to add it to the ever-growing list of "things I can't afford" :( I suppose it should jump to the front of queue, hi fi upgrades-wise.
You're absolutely right, I'd love an RCM. But I'll just have to add it to the ever-growing list of "things I can't afford" :( I suppose it should jump to the front of queue, hi fi upgrades-wise.
I was like that, I went for many, many years thinking it was just something I couldn’t afford. They are way overpriced! I mean really! But, I justified that if I want my record collection to last the rest of my life, I needed one. And it hurt to drop that $500! But, once I started using it, the money was long forgotten, and the joy of owning it is worth way more! And, it did renew my records, Records I thought were through suddenly were very listenable! No regrets, I could kick myself for not buying it 15 years sooner. If you calculate the value of your record collection, it becomes apparent that the cost of the RCM is worth it.
Russell
The noise described sounds more like non-fill to me therefore wouldn't be improved by a clean.
However, in general I agree and a RCM is essential.
Yes it could be, but I there'd be no harm in running the LP trough an RCM to see if it cured the problem.
Marco.
I've just received a copy of Nina Simone 'Little Girl Blue' 200g Analogue Productions LP and Aretha Franklin's 'Aretha Gold' 180g 2 x 45rpm lps. Very expensive but the quality of the recordings are absolutely outstanding in every sense. It just shows how wonderful vinyl can be and, in consequence, how flawed it often is. Equipment/component concerns are most probably give far too much focus, sound quality largely depends on the input, ie the quality of the recording. My money's heading in that direction from now on...
That's an undoubted truism, and one of the reasons why some folks give up on vinyl, because they can't get it to sound how they want.
So you're right, no matter how good the turntable is, or any of the supporting equipment, if the process doesn't start with a well-recorded piece of vinyl in pristine condition, you've got ZERO chance of ever hearing vinyl at its best, which is why an RCM is vital for anyone serious about the latter - *and* like you say, owning some high-quality audiophile pressings of good music!
It's no use simply playing your old worn out records from the 70s and 80s, which you used to swap with your mates at school, and have been played to death, or 2nd hand buys from shops or car boot sales, as those will never allow your T/T to truly shine, so diverting more cash towards the software, in the way you describe with genuinely high-quality pressings, once you've got your T/T and system at a point you're happy with, is definitely the way to go:cool:
Marco.
I was like that, I went for many, many years thinking it was just something I couldn’t afford. They are way overpriced! I mean really! But, I justified that if I want my record collection to last the rest of my life, I needed one. And it hurt to drop that $500! But, once I started using it, the money was long forgotten, and the joy of owning it is worth way more! And, it did renew my records, Records I thought were through suddenly were very listenable! No regrets, I could kick myself for not buying it 15 years sooner. If you calculate the value of your record collection, it becomes apparent that the cost of the RCM is worth it.
Spot on, Russell! Aside from the ridiculous high price, which I agree with, too many folks see RCMs merely as an 'accessory', like a record brush, when in reality it's far more than that. It's a vital tool in the armoury of any serious vinylista, and in the long run its cost is far outweighed by its effectiveness, and most importantly, how it protects your precious records.
Marco.
You're absolutely right, I'd love an RCM. But I'll just have to add it to the ever-growing list of "things I can't afford" :( I suppose it should jump to the front of queue, hi fi upgrades-wise.
Hi Steve,
If you can send me some stuff you'd like cleaned, I'll gladly do it for you, for the cost of postage. The process I use is meticulous and will transform the sound of your favourite LPs. At least it would give you a taster of what an RCM is capable of, so that Anita can get you one for Christmas!:eyebrows:;)
Anyway, if you're interested, let me know:cool:
Marco.
Manicatel
31-03-2019, 18:38
Just read an interview with a guy from abbey road, talking about his job pressing vinyl. Ok so it’s only in What HiFi, so yea, I know I know.
Anyway, when asked about what masters did he press from, he said he uses CD Masters, as no one wants to pay for remastering cd’s & then pay again for remastering vinyl copies of the same album from analogue sources!
They’re trying to make him out to be some kind of remastering guru, but it seems he’s not bothered about what source he uses to remaster from. Just de-ess the cd, turn the gain down a bit & hey presto, here’s your vinyl master copy. Definitely not impressed & highly unlikely to be hunting out any of his work.
If the recordings were digital which their pretty much bound to be these days I don't see that it makes any difference. You can't master from an analogue source if there wasn't one to begin with.
Manicatel
31-03-2019, 20:38
Well that’s obvious.
The inference of the interview inferred (to me anyway) that assuming there is a viable analogue master available the remastering would still be using a cd master as “ why pay twice when they can just remaster from the one source”.
Hardly inspires confidence in the integrity of someone being promoted as an expert in the art of remastering vinyl.
Pigmy Pony
31-03-2019, 20:38
Just read an interview with a guy from abbey road, talking about his job pressing vinyl. Ok so it’s only in What HiFi, so yea, I know I know.
Anyway, when asked about what masters did he press from, he said he uses CD Masters, as no one wants to pay for remastering cd’s & then pay again for remastering vinyl copies of the same album from analogue sources!
They’re trying to make him out to be some kind of remastering guru, but it seems he’s not bothered about what source he uses to remaster from. Just de-ess the cd, turn the gain down a bit & hey presto, here’s your vinyl master copy. Definitely not impressed & highly unlikely to be hunting out any of his work.
In fact, quite the opposite - watch out for his name, so you'll know which titles to avoid :(
Marco, your offer is very kind, and I'd love to take you up on that. But...I've been meaning to come over and say hi, so would it be cheeky to bring a couple of albums in person in the coming weeks and have a catch-up? I'd love to hear how your breathed-on Dittons sound, as my mum had those models and I remember quite well how they sounded :)
And I promise I'll drop my number 2 in my own bog before setting off.
.
And I promise I'll drop my number 2 in my own bog before setting off.
What a gentleman! Now that’s class right there!
Russell
Pigmy Pony
01-04-2019, 06:22
Good morning Russell, always nice to wake up to your overnight posts, it's like Christmas morning! "Mummy! Daddy! alphaGT has been! :) Or maybe the tooth fairy :D
Good morning Russell, always nice to wake up to your overnight posts, it's like Christmas morning! "Mummy! Daddy! alphaGT has been! :) Or maybe the tooth fairy :D
It’s 5 hours difference? Later I think? But I stay up all night so I get my surfing done while you all sleep! So if the Tooth Fairy leaves any money under your pillow I think it only fair you give me half?
Russell
In fact, quite the opposite - watch out for his name, so you'll know which titles to avoid :(
Marco, your offer is very kind, and I'd love to take you up on that. But...I've been meaning to come over and say hi, so would it be cheeky to bring a couple of albums in person in the coming weeks and have a catch-up? I'd love to hear how your breathed-on Dittons sound, as my mum had those models and I remember quite well how they sounded :)
And I promise I'll drop my number 2 in my own bog before setting off.
There was me going to make you some 'beef olives' for lunch...
Sounds like a plan, dudeness... I'll give you a shout when things are a bit less busy!:cool:
Marco.
Well that’s obvious.
The inference of the interview inferred (to me anyway) that assuming there is a viable analogue master available the remastering would still be using a cd master as “ why pay twice when they can just remaster from the one source”.
Hardly inspires confidence in the integrity of someone being promoted as an expert in the art of remastering vinyl.
If it's an old recording he's remastering then there might be an analogue master still in acceptable condition, but all the major labels archived their analogue masters to digital a long time back to preserve them before they deteriorated too much. The digital master will be an exact copy of the analogue master. Okay so they are not preserving the 'purity' of the analogue chain but the reality is that makes no difference to anything.
I was like that, I went for many, many years thinking it was just something I couldn’t afford. They are way overpriced! I mean really! But, I justified that if I want my record collection to last the rest of my life, I needed one. And it hurt to drop that $500! But, once I started using it, the money was long forgotten, and the joy of owning it is worth way more! And, it did renew my records, Records I thought were through suddenly were very listenable! No regrets, I could kick myself for not buying it 15 years sooner. If you calculate the value of your record collection, it becomes apparent that the cost of the RCM is worth it.
Russell
I couldn't agree more! I also agree with your comments on US vinyl. The American pressed records I have especially from the '60s seem to be more resilient to scuffs and wear than UK/European counterparts ( though oddly French pressings are more like US) as though the vinyl mix is harder.
I couldn't agree more! I also agree with your comments on US vinyl. The American pressed records I have especially from the '60s seem to be more resilient to scuffs and wear than UK/European counterparts ( though oddly French pressings are more like US) as though the vinyl mix is harder.
yup I used to collect US blues stuff from late 50's and 60's and most were almost as hard as shellac. any scuffing or scratches didnt really get through the outer layer.
Jac Hawk
01-04-2019, 14:28
You're absolutely right, I'd love an RCM. But I'll just have to add it to the ever-growing list of "things I can't afford" :( I suppose it should jump to the front of queue, hi fi upgrades-wise.
Bring it over to mine Steve and run it through my RCM
Pigmy Pony
01-04-2019, 19:49
Cheers Mike, you're a star! Any evening or Saturday afternoons are best for me, so if you say what's best for you I'll be there - I'm only 5 minutes away.
My vinyl collection isn't particularly big, about 400. But still probably enough to make owning an RCM worthwhile.
That's a sensible idea and good result. We'll defo hook up sometime soon though, Steve:)
Marco.
Cheers Mike, you're a star! Any evening or Saturday afternoons are best for me, so if you say what's best for you I'll be there - I'm only 5 minutes away.
My vinyl collection isn't particularly big, about 400. But still probably enough to make owning an RCM worthwhile.Mine is less now but need a cleaner to get anywhere near the best out of the system. Even new they are often dirty. Vinyl passion stuff aside as they seem to clean them first. Always pristine
Pigmy Pony
01-04-2019, 20:08
That's a sensible idea and good result. We'll defo hook up sometime soon though, Steve:)
Marco.
Cheers Marco, look forward to it :)
Jac Hawk
01-04-2019, 21:53
Cheers Mike, you're a star! Any evening or Saturday afternoons are best for me, so if you say what's best for you I'll be there - I'm only 5 minutes away.
My vinyl collection isn't particularly big, about 400. But still probably enough to make owning an RCM worthwhile.
Any evening this week after 6 mate suits me
For the second time in a month or so I've bought new vinyl which, after a clean on an Okki, has played flawlessly except for several cracks and pops on the last 10 seconds of the final side as it goes into the run off. Doubtless a pressing issue and very annoying. It's probably the pinnacle of first world problems, but it's a dilemma whether to go to the hassle of returning it or just put up with it. As a new item, and let's face it new vinyl is not exactly a bargain, it 'should' be perfect, but often life just seems to short........
For the second time in a month or so I've bought new vinyl which, after a clean on an Okki, has played flawlessly except for several cracks and pops on the last 10 seconds of the final side as it goes into the run off. Doubtless a pressing issue and very annoying. It's probably the pinnacle of first world problems, but it's a dilemma whether to go to the hassle of returning it or just put up with it. As a new item, and let's face it new vinyl is not exactly a bargain, it 'should' be perfect, but often life just seems to short........
If it’s new, and cleaned, I suspect the ticks you refer to in the lead out groove will be on every copy?
That’s the one drawback of a manual turntable, the needle riding in that lead out groove until you get up and lift the needle. Some albums have a quiet lead out, and it’ll barely makes a shuffling sound as it spins, waiting for someone to lift the needle. And others make an infernal racket! With loud pops and bangs as the needle jumps that last groove! That’ll have you jumping from your chair to save it! I have in the past fallen asleep and woken an hour later to the sound of the needle in that last groove, it didn’t seem to hurt anything, but it is worrisome. And of course they do make those arm lifters for manual tables, perhaps if I had a more expensive cartridge I may invest in one?
Russell
Crackles
07-04-2019, 20:25
Mine is less now but need a cleaner to get anywhere near the best out of the system. Even new they are often dirty. Vinyl passion stuff aside as they seem to clean them first. Always pristineWhen you say Vinyl Passion are you referring to the record label? I thought they were one of those cheapo European domain labels like DOL?
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Returning to the importance of vinyl quality and sound... I had an interesting exchange with the owner of an online audiophile vinyl shop yesterday who warned me off buying several new release records I was interested in, noting that those- and indeed the vast majority of vinyl nowadays- were essentially junk, using as source a cd master on a usb stick or CDR, mastered in a couple of hours buy an engineer in a studio who rattles through 3 or 4 albums a day. The vinyl is cut using a digital 16bit cutting head on a DMM lathe instead of an analogue VMS one. His advice was save money and buy the CD instead. Not really news I suppose but pretty depressing nonetheless. If only all new releases were as stunning as Mofi Ultradisks (and a fraction of the price!!!!), I think we'd be hearing fewer complaints about TTS, carts and other ancillary equipment...
Returning to the importance of vinyl quality and sound... I had an interesting exchange with the owner of an online audiophile vinyl shop yesterday who warned me off buying several new release records I was interested in, noting that those- and indeed the vast majority of vinyl nowadays- were essentially junk, using as source a cd master on a usb stick or CDR, mastered in a couple of hours buy an engineer in a studio who rattles through 3 or 4 albums a day. The vinyl is cut using a digital 16bit cutting head on a DMM lathe instead of an analogue VMS one. His advice was save money and buy the CD instead. Not really news I suppose but pretty depressing nonetheless. If only all new releases were as stunning as Mofi Ultradisks (and a fraction of the price!!!!), I think we'd be hearing fewer complaints about TTS, carts and other ancillary equipment...
That’s interesting. Were these new artists? I confess I haven’t bought any new vinyl in a year’s time, and the ones I have are mostly older music. But that is most disappointing, mastering a vinyl record from a USB stick! Definitely a label to watch out for.
Russell
From da222:
"mastered in a couple of hours buy an engineer in a studio who rattles through 3 or 4 albums a day. "
This also raises one of my concerns, those who re-master are often from a very different cultural heritage and background, who as a result do not have a sensibility for the original ethos of the artistic material.
A good example IMO is the CD version of Country Joe's Electric music.
Returning to the importance of vinyl quality and sound... I had an interesting exchange with the owner of an online audiophile vinyl shop yesterday who warned me off buying several new release records I was interested in, noting that those- and indeed the vast majority of vinyl nowadays- were essentially junk, using as source a cd master on a usb stick or CDR, mastered in a couple of hours buy an engineer in a studio who rattles through 3 or 4 albums a day. The vinyl is cut using a digital 16bit cutting head on a DMM lathe instead of an analogue VMS one. His advice was save money and buy the CD instead. Not really news I suppose but pretty depressing nonetheless. If only all new releases were as stunning as Mofi Ultradisks (and a fraction of the price!!!!), I think we'd be hearing fewer complaints about TTS, carts and other ancillary equipment...
DMM lathes are afaik analogue. Direct metal mastering. its cut straight into a copper disc.
AJSki2fly
09-04-2019, 08:00
Returning to the importance of vinyl quality and sound... I had an interesting exchange with the owner of an online audiophile vinyl shop yesterday who warned me off buying several new release records I was interested in, noting that those- and indeed the vast majority of vinyl nowadays- were essentially junk, using as source a cd master on a usb stick or CDR, mastered in a couple of hours buy an engineer in a studio who rattles through 3 or 4 albums a day. The vinyl is cut using a digital 16bit cutting head on a DMM lathe instead of an analogue VMS one. His advice was save money and buy the CD instead. Not really news I suppose but pretty depressing nonetheless. If only all new releases were as stunning as Mofi Ultradisks (and a fraction of the price!!!!), I think we'd be hearing fewer complaints about TTS, carts and other ancillary equipment...
Yes, quite correct, need to be quite careful buying re-releases even of major artists, unless the process is clear, it often can be from digital masters, and/or badly re-mixed and cut. IMO it is better to try and buy an original early pressing in genuine NM condition, depending on cost and availability.
"That’s interesting. Were these new artists? I confess I haven’t bought any new vinyl in a year’s time, and the ones I have are mostly older music. But that is most disappointing, mastering a vinyl record from a USB stick! Definitely a label to watch out for."
His comments related to 'big' label artists' material in general and, in my case, it was a Craig Armstrong album and the re-press of Portishead's live in USA...
DMM lathes are afaik analogue. Direct metal mastering. its cut straight into a copper disc.
Yes DNM uses an analogue head, not digital.
There 's no real issue with using a 16 bit digital cutting head though since best case a vinyl LP will only have 13 bits equivalent dynamic range.
There still seems to be some confusion regarding this. Wouldn't a fairly recent recoding by Portishead be digital? So why would you expect them to cut the vinyl from a none-digital master? This makes no sense.
I can understand wanting to preserve the 'analogue purity' with an analogue recording even if there is no real point to it but how can it possibly matter if the recording is digital to begin with?
Yes DNM uses an analogue head, not digital.
There 's no real issue with using a 16 bit digital cutting head though since best case a vinyl LP will only have 13 bits equivalent dynamic range.
There still seems to be some confusion regarding this. Wouldn't a fairly recent recoding by Portishead be digital? So why would you expect them to cut the vinyl from a none-digital master? This makes no sense.
I can understand wanting to preserve the 'analogue purity' with an analogue recording even if there is no real point to it but how can it possibly matter if the recording is digital to begin with?
Sorry I wasn't very clear. The Portishead original was digital of course, but apparently much better sonically than the recent digital re-press, both in terms of mastering and vinyl QC.
I see. have to say when I was buying vinyl I always tried to get first pressings due to the massively variable quality of the re-issues. No doubt some are 'better' but it really did seem to be pot luck. There are so many variables when pressing a record that it is hard to pin down any particular reason for a specific example to be rubbish.
Quality of the stamper, and how many it has done before it does the one you end up buying:
Quality of the vinyl used, and the cleanliness of the facility.
The experience or the lack of it of the bloke running the press.
I'd say all of those will make far more difference than whether they took the master from a USB stick or whatever, or whether a digital or analogue lathe was used. I know we have at least a couple of members here who have worked in pressing plants, maybe they will comment.
I recently bought the remastered ‘My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts’ (on vinyl, obviously) and it sounds outstanding.
I'm not sure that this is as clear cut as some would make out. I've enjoyed quite a bit of re-mastered new vinyl: Kate Bush and Jethro Tull for a start off. The Abbey Road half speed version of John Martyn Solid Air was also excellent I thought. I think you have to differentiate between the sound and the quality of the vinyl itself - if you know what I mean - a well mastered recording is useless if the pressing is rubbish. I've had quite a few issues with K-Scope recordings. They look perfect but have huge amounts of surface noise. It's very frustrating. Buying good first pressings is not always easy either - there many sellers who claim Near Mint which are anything but. Overall it's all a bit of a lottery
BTW - Where's this Audiphile Vinyl shop? Sounds facinating
I'm not sure that this is as clear cut as some would make out. I've enjoyed quite a bit of re-mastered new vinyl: Kate Bush and Jethro Tull for a start off. The Abbey Road half speed version of John Martyn Solid Air was also excellent I thought. I think you have to differentiate between the sound and the quality of the vinyl itself - if you know what I mean - a well mastered recording is useless if the pressing is rubbish. I've had quite a few issues with K-Scope recordings. They look perfect but have huge amounts of surface noise. It's very frustrating. Buying good first pressings is not always easy either - there many sellers who claim Near Mint which are anything but. Overall it's all a bit of a lottery
BTW - Where's this Audiphile Vinyl shop? Sounds facinating
Absolutely, the examples you have given (including John Martin which I also ordered a few days ago) are some exceptions to the rule with careful mastering, pressing etc. It appears the majority of new releases are not subject to such attention/ controls. The shop is https://snvinyl.co.uk/epages/eshop943300.mobile/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop943300 and it has some very good vinyl available....
Pigmy Pony
09-04-2019, 17:42
I recently bought the remastered ‘My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts’ (on vinyl, obviously) and it sounds outstanding.
I have the original 1981 pressing, which I always thought was pretty good. Pity you don't live nearer, Mark - we could do a comparison.
Indeed. If you find yourself in my local any time you are welcome to a listen.
I got an audiophile copy of little girl blue and it sounds poor. Not a patch on my other versions.. It cost a bomb too.. It will be the last
I got an audiophile copy of little girl blue and it sounds poor. Not a patch on my other versions.. It cost a bomb too.. It will be the last
Which version? Analogue productions? 33/3 or 45? I've got the former and in a couple of places the piano annoyingly distorts, otherwise the sound is exceptional. Currently exchanging for the 45 rpm version...
I've got a pristine 1st pressing mono version of 'Nina Sings the Blues' but sonically not great on my system- one word: Dynagroove
Yup the 33.none of my other versions do this so it's been badly done. I'm a big nina fan and have a few different version s
Yup the 33.none of my other versions do this so it's been badly done. I'm a big nina fan and have a few different version s
My version distorts on the track "You'll Never Walk Alone," which I suppose in all honesty is no bad thing:lol:
First 2 tracks on mine plus a couple others. No marks and it was sealed but its a disgrace for the cost and all the so called checking they are meant to go through. Lost a customer for ever
First 2 tracks on mine plus a couple others. No marks and it was sealed but its a disgrace for the cost and all the so called checking they are meant to go through. Lost a customer for ever
The AP Aretha Franklin Gold LP 45 rpm on the other hand is pretty much perfect...
Which version? Analogue productions? 33/3 or 45? I've got the former and in a couple of places the piano annoyingly distorts, otherwise the sound is exceptional. Currently exchanging for the 45 rpm version...
I've got a pristine 1st pressing mono version of 'Nina Sings the Blues' but sonically not great on my system- one word: Dynagroove
Well there you go - "Dynagroove" was a misconceived process whereby the groove was deliberately distorted so as to supposedly cancel out the effect of tracking and tracing distortion. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Crackles
15-04-2019, 20:28
Yup the 33.none of my other versions do this so it's been badly done. I'm a big nina fan and have a few different version sGlad you mentioned this I was looking at the AP version of LGB.
I might go for the copy from Pure Pleasure you linked up earlier in the thread.
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