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View Full Version : My Denon DL-103 journey (long boring rant, had to get it off my chest)



magiccarpetride
17-03-2019, 17:58
About 2.5 - 3 years ago, I came to the realization that no matter how many upgrades I continue making to my digital front end, I will never get to the point where I actually enjoy digital playback. So I decided to go back to the roots, back to the fundamentals -- vinyl. After all, early on my love for music started with my love affair with vinyl.

This time around I decided to start from the very instrument that makes music -- the cartridge. And because I've never had a chance to experiment with moving coil cartridges, I started doing research on MC carts. Of course, no discussion on MC carts can occur without involving Denon DL-103. I quickly realized the almost mythical status of that cart, and because the price was right, I ordered one.

When it arrived, I began the search for a turntable and the phono preamp that would host this little cart. Some people recommended Technics SL-1200, but these tables were not so easy to find in a decent condition. Besides, some other people in the know advised that SL-1200 may not be precise enough for DL-103. So I continued my search for a vintage table. Eventually settled on Systemdek IIX (a poor man's Linn Sondek LP12) with Rega RB300 arm. The seller threw in Project Phono Box DC with a hand made SUT.

When I mounted DL-103 and gave it a spin, I was pleasantly surprised by the forcefulness of the presentation. It did deliver a lot of body and presence to the playback. Right there I knew that I made the right decision to abandon digital and go back to analog.

After living for a few weeks with that configuration, I started feeling that something was lacking in the sound quality, so I decided to upgrade the phono. Ordered Emotiva XPS-1, and indeed that little phono noticeably improved the sound. Still, after spending a few months with the new configuration, I was not satisfied with the overall delivery. It felt a bit brittle, and glaring, and the finer details were kind of missing. I started looking for the alternative components for my analog chain.

After receiving a few suggestions, I decided to try a different cart, something that would give me less glaring sound, with more details. Settled on Ortofon OM20, which has a nude elliptical stylus. And indeed, the moment I mounted OM20 on RB300, it became obvious that many previously missing details are now fully present. I was kind of satisfied with the upgrade, but the sound, although detailed, was still glaring and a bit glassy/metallic.

I then upgraded my phono to iFi Micro iPhono 2. That upgrade took the playback to a completely new level. So at that point, I was very satisfied with the configuration; the metallic, glassy and glaring sound was all but gone. Much more pleasant listening experience.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, as it later turned out), I managed to damage RB300 while transporting my turntable. I replaced it with Jelco SA-750E 10 inch arm. I mounted OM20 on Jelco, and was happy to notice that the sound in the new configuration got better. However, because Jelco being a 10 inch arm was mounted on an armboard machined for a 9 inch RB300, the geometry was off. So I ordered a custom made armboard for Jelco. The armboard was machined from plexiglass, and when it arrived and I installed it, I for some crazy reason decided to try it with DL-103.

And that's when the unexpected happened. Although I had previously clearly demonstrated to myself that replacing conical stylus cart with nude elliptical stylus cart definitely provides much more finer details, going back to the conical stylus all of a sudden completely destroyed the nude elliptical stylus! Denon DL-103 is now delivering way more finer details than Ortofon OM20 ever could.

My conclusion is that DL-103 was obviously a very poor match in my configuration with Rega RB300 arm. It was severely underperforming on RB300, while Ortofon OM20 was a much better fit, so it easily beat DL-103. But on a better arm (Jelco, obviously a better fit for DL-103), OM20 lost on all aspects. And I use the word 'lost' to avoid any hint of a hyperbole, while in actuality a much better description would be 'DL-103 totally DESTROYED OM20 on Jelco 10 inch tonearm!'

OK, so after this long winded retelling of my journey, I get to the real point of my post: Denon DL-103 has now completely transformed my experience of listening to music playback. This last adjustment (setting it on Jelco SA-750E arm with properly designed armboard) created a very unique presentation of the music playback. I'm sharing this with you because I have never heard anything like the sound I'm now getting out of this cart. It is hard to put into words what's different, so I feel forced to reach for some analogies (I'll be probably stretching the analogy too thin here, so I apologize in advance):

Long time ago, when I first visited France, I had an eye opening experience regarding their food. Before visiting France, I was never much into food, to be honest. But trying their specialty food items had awaken a new sensual perception in me. So for example, I remember trying for the first time tart au citron (lemon tart) in Paris. It was a crazy experience, because not only did I taste lemon, eggs and butter, I was actually tasting something else, something that has no name. It's the quality that results from a well assembled compound where the final result is larger than the sum of its parts.

In a similar fashion, when I now listen to records using DL-103, I hear something that is larger than the sum of the instruments and vocals that comprise the recording. And I've never heard such thing before. So that new quality with no name, that now emerged from my system, is so bloody seductive, that I completely forget about instruments, forget about vocals, forget about soundstage and imaging, and am just soaking in this divine substance that is washing over me.

I know this sounds stupid crazy, but that's the revelation that hit me with this new configuration with DL-103. If I now put some other cartridge on (I've tried Ortofon and Audio Technica), I absolutely do not get even a trace of that new presentation. I get a good old familiar 'hi fi' sound where what attracts my attention is the precise imaging, sizeable soundstage, finer textures of voices and instruments, and so on. Switching back to DL-103, all those facets become secondary, because that elusive 'tone' commands full attention, and is centre stage.

Just to be pedantic, I started visiting friends with good audio systems, and listening to their configurations. None of that elusive quality was to be found on other systems I've carefully listened to. I even visited some local high end audio stores and spent some time listening to their flagship 'statement' systems, none of the magical quality could be detected. Just a very respectable, very convincing hi fi delivery, with loads of details, vast soundstage, razor sharp imaging, etc.

I've now concluded that what I have in my listening room is not so much a music reproduction chain, as basically a new musical instrument. Something that makes sound using a piece of rotating plastic. Blast!

Sorry for the long rant, and thanks for reading...

Wakefield Turntables
17-03-2019, 18:22
Interesting reading and I can associate with a lot of what you say.

karma67
17-03-2019, 18:48
yep me to,i was very happy with my 103 SA but ultimately it lost out in fine detail to my AT-ART7.

Bigman80
17-03-2019, 20:29
I have tried most of the range I think, barring variations of the various cartridges, 103,103r,301,304, DLS1.

Can't say I'd buy another of any of them again. I suppose it all depends on what you want from vinyl.

At least replacing your cartridge will be cheap and the joy you're getting is worth the price.

Enjoy!

topoxforddoc
17-03-2019, 20:59
I bought an used 103C1 a few months ago on AoS to try in my study system. Last week, it came back from Wyndham Hodgson at ESCo, with the sapphire cantilever and paratrace tip rebuild (currently £330). Tracking at 2.2 g in a bog standard 1210 Mk2 and plugged into a Lentek integrated. It's astonishingly good for what it owes me.

Only had a handful of hours on it, but it has all the drive and bass, but with more refined mids and top end. Tracks better too (at 2.2g).

magiccarpetride
17-03-2019, 22:53
I have tried most of the range I think, barring variations of the various cartridges, 103,103r,301,304, DLS1.

Can't say I'd buy another of any of them again. I suppose it all depends on what you want from vinyl.

At least replacing your cartridge will be cheap and the joy you're getting is worth the price.

Enjoy!

Thanks. I was in the same boat as you after I replaced DL-103 with Ortofon MM cart. I kept the Denon thinking that maybe I could give it to my son once he decides to go with vinyl. Then, on a lark, decided to give it one more go with the new tonearm, and bam! -- it opened up.

I guess the moral of the story is you never know what kind of a weird combo might open up some ho-hum audio component. It sometimes pays to mess around a little bit before you ebay it.

topoxforddoc
17-03-2019, 23:10
I think that this highlights the issue about cartridges. On shouldn't look at cartridges alone. The most important items in the audio chain are the two sets of transducers - the front end (cartridge) and the back end (speakers).

Getting the transducers to work at their optimum depends on other factors. For cartridges, the crucial issue is the interaction with the arm - vibration transmission (and the effect of damping), bearing chatter, as well as resonant frequency of tonearm/cartridge (cartridge compliance, total effective mass etc). Every cartridge has a sweet spot, and the 103 is no different. You just have to find it in your own system.

Bigman80
17-03-2019, 23:47
Thanks. I was in the same boat as you after I replaced DL-103 with Ortofon MM cart. I kept the Denon thinking that maybe I could give it to my son once he decides to go with vinyl. Then, on a lark, decided to give it one more go with the new tonearm, and bam! -- it opened up.

I guess the moral of the story is you never know what kind of a weird combo might open up some ho-hum audio component. It sometimes pays to mess around a little bit before you ebay it.It's definitely down to what arm gets the best from the cartridge and vice versa.

For me, I have a really good combination and I know what line of progress to follow.

Synergy, that's what we've got, just gone about it differently!

Bigman80
17-03-2019, 23:47
I think that this highlights the issue about cartridges. On shouldn't look at cartridges alone. The most important items in the audio chain are the two sets of transducers - the front end (cartridge) and the back end (speakers).

Getting the transducers to work at their optimum depends on other factors. For cartridges, the crucial issue is the interaction with the arm - vibration transmission (and the effect of damping), bearing chatter, as well as resonant frequency of tonearm/cartridge (cartridge compliance, total effective mass etc). Every cartridge has a sweet spot, and the 103 is no different. You just have to find it in your own system.Agreed. Well put too!

Johnny nocash
18-03-2019, 01:34
I think that this highlights the issue about cartridges. On shouldn't look at cartridges alone. The most important items in the audio chain are the two sets of transducers - the front end (cartridge) and the back end (speakers).

Getting the transducers to work at their optimum depends on other factors. For cartridges, the crucial issue is the interaction with the arm - vibration transmission (and the effect of damping), bearing chatter, as well as resonant frequency of tonearm/cartridge (cartridge compliance, total effective mass etc). Every cartridge has a sweet spot, and the 103 is no different. You just have to find it in your own system.

It's definitely down to what arm gets the best from the cartridge and vice versa. ......

Synergy,..

Totally agree with these points. They're not forgotten but often overlooked. Everyone's system & room are different & will probably bring different results when changing one component for another.
I feel any opinion about a piece of kit is maybe a fair guideline but not absolute. You've just got to put it in your own set up to truly know.
Glad your happy MagicCarpet (I hope your not taking us on a) Ride!:lol:

drSM
18-03-2019, 01:35
Good read Alex, but damn damn damn
That means i will have to have another go at my 103R...
(btw are u using the 103 or 103R?)
I ve done allsorts of 'upgrades' on my 3102II ( new bearings, new wires, increased its mass, brass weights, 10g AT headshell ) and i still couldnt get my 103R to sing.
I am now much happier using an ancient SL15Q in the 3012 altho it might not seem an ideal match.
I await the chaps at Cala/AnaMighty rebuild the SL15 that lurks in even more ancient Ortofon S15T but that is taking literally forever...
Maybe i need a Jelco, huh?

magiccarpetride
18-03-2019, 02:02
I think that this highlights the issue about cartridges. On shouldn't look at cartridges alone. The most important items in the audio chain are the two sets of transducers - the front end (cartridge) and the back end (speakers).

Getting the transducers to work at their optimum depends on other factors. For cartridges, the crucial issue is the interaction with the arm - vibration transmission (and the effect of damping), bearing chatter, as well as resonant frequency of tonearm/cartridge (cartridge compliance, total effective mass etc). Every cartridge has a sweet spot, and the 103 is no different. You just have to find it in your own system.

Absolutely, 100% agree on that. One other thing I didn't mention in my rant (wanted to keep it as short as possible) is the impedance matching with the MC input on my phono. I already posted about that on this forum, and got a few very interesting tips. But at the end of the day, it really is whatever works in your particular configuration. I got a really lousy sound out of my configuration with DL-103 feeding into iFi phono at 100ohms. Cranking it up to 1000ohms sounded very different, but on most records too shrill. Finally, after figuring out how to set the MC stage to 250ohms, I hit the amazing sweet spot.

So wrong loads can really ruin the otherwise sweet and magic sound.

magiccarpetride
18-03-2019, 02:06
Good read Alex, but damn damn damn
That means i will have to have another go at my 103R...
(btw are u using the 103 or 103R?)
I ve done allsorts of 'upgrades' on my 3102II ( new bearings, new wires, increased its mass, brass weights, 10g AT headshell ) and i still couldnt get my 103R to sing.
I am now much happier using an ancient SL15Q in the 3012 altho it might not seem an ideal match.
I await the chaps at Cala/AnaMighty rebuild the SL15 that lurks in even more ancient Ortofon S15T but that is taking literally forever...
Maybe i need a Jelco, huh?

I'm using plain vanilla DL-103. Not sure if Jelco is ideal for it (I think it needs heavier arm), but in my configuration these two components hit some kind of interesting chemistry that would really be worth hearing. And no, I'm not taking you guys for a ride. I happen to be extremely finicky when it comes to sound, so I cannot rest until I get it to the point where it works on me like some heavy substances would ;)

Also, I've noticed that a better engineered arm board contributed to the sweetening of the sound...

Ammonite Audio
18-03-2019, 06:41
Your experience is simple proof that you cannot totally ignore mechanical and electrical matching of cartridges to the rest of a system. In the case of the DL-103, that's a low compliance cartridge that will not ever sing in a lightweight arm like a Rega, and the SA-750E is a much better match in terms of effective mass (and you can increase that mass further by using a heavier headshell). So, you don't need a heavier arm, perhaps just a heavier headshell, like Jelco's own HS-30.

The mass analogy here is fitting really stiff springs to a lightweight car and expecting the suspension to faithfully and securely track the bumps in the road - it won't do that but instead the whole car will just buck around and the wheels will not in any way follow the contours of the road. In a cartridge, ideally we want the body to stay still and only the cantilever/tip moves, and for a stiffly sprung cartridge like the DL-103 the suspension will only track the grooves if the body is held still(ish) by a heavy mass. Similarly, put a set of soft springs on a heavy car and the body will wallow around in relation to the cantilever/tip, and that's probably what occurred with the OM20 in the Jelco, so a different mismatch.

Interesting comments regarding conical (spherical) tips. Conical tips will never excavate the fine groove details that something like a fancy Line Contour tip will, but recent experience with spherical tipped Ortofon SPUs suggests that a good cartridge with such a tip can be innately musical. Not 'HiFi' in terms of searing detail, but really engaging in terms of wanting to listen for longer, in spite of the obvious glossing over of really fine details. I believe that a conical/spherical tip tracks grooves with no time shift between channels as the groove wiggles, where a sharper tip profile does shift time very slightly as it turns (there is a diagram somewhere on the net that shows this); and I do wonder if that's the root of the conical/spherical tip listenability/musicality since the human auditory system (mainly the brain, in this instance) is very sensitive indeed to tiny time and phase anomalies.

Of course there are good and dreadful examples of cartridges with spherical/conical and other tip profiles, so this is a bit of a generalisation, but I'd be interesting in following Charlie's progress with the ESCo re-worked DL-103 and whether it retains the 'music maker' reputation of the original cartridge, while giving more in terms of 'HiFi'.

Barry
18-03-2019, 14:55
As far as I know, the only advantage of using a conical tip is the contact footprint with the record groove is a circle, and hence cartridges fitted with conical tips are largely immune to VTA setting.

I would be interested to learn more about the 'timing errors' created through the use of line-line styli. Hugo, is it possible to provide a link to this (especially to the diagram you mentioned)? Thanks.

Ammonite Audio
18-03-2019, 15:59
I knew I'd seen it recently - see https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/stylus_profiles_audibility_e.html

This somewhat indistinct diagram shows how spherical tips always trace a wiggly groove with right and left channel information properly in time.

https://www.tnt-audio.com/jpg/stylus_shapes_in_groove.jpg

Barry
18-03-2019, 16:23
Thanks for that Hugo.

It seems to me, looking at the diagram, that of all the stylus profiles, the elliptical tip suffers the greatest inter-channel time delay. When I have some time I'll calculate what the phase difference is; but I expect it to be very small and inaudible.

But whatever it is, it always amazes me that with all the tracing and tracking errors produced by dragging a small lump of diamond in a groove cut into a less-than-infinitely-rigid plastic disc, and with all those distortions, vinyl playback can sound as good as it does.

Ammonite Audio
18-03-2019, 17:58
Perhaps this is worthy of a separate thread!

topoxforddoc
18-03-2019, 21:43
Of course there are good and dreadful examples of cartridges with spherical/conical and other tip profiles, so this is a bit of a generalisation, but I'd be interesting in following Charlie's progress with the ESCo re-worked DL-103 and whether it retains the 'music maker' reputation of the original cartridge, while giving more in terms of 'HiFi'.

Hugo,

My initial impressions were jaw dropping, compared to the stock 103C1. Yes, it keeps the music maker reputation, but delivers in bucket loads in addition.

Charlie

magiccarpetride
18-03-2019, 22:47
Your experience is simple proof that you cannot totally ignore mechanical and electrical matching of cartridges to the rest of a system. In the case of the DL-103, that's a low compliance cartridge that will not ever sing in a lightweight arm like a Rega, and the SA-750E is a much better match in terms of effective mass (and you can increase that mass further by using a heavier headshell). So, you don't need a heavier arm, perhaps just a heavier headshell, like Jelco's own HS-30.

The mass analogy here is fitting really stiff springs to a lightweight car and expecting the suspension to faithfully and securely track the bumps in the road - it won't do that but instead the whole car will just buck around and the wheels will not in any way follow the contours of the road. In a cartridge, ideally we want the body to stay still and only the cantilever/tip moves, and for a stiffly sprung cartridge like the DL-103 the suspension will only track the grooves if the body is held still(ish) by a heavy mass. Similarly, put a set of soft springs on a heavy car and the body will wallow around in relation to the cantilever/tip, and that's probably what occurred with the OM20 in the Jelco, so a different mismatch.

Interesting comments regarding conical (spherical) tips. Conical tips will never excavate the fine groove details that something like a fancy Line Contour tip will, but recent experience with spherical tipped Ortofon SPUs suggests that a good cartridge with such a tip can be innately musical. Not 'HiFi' in terms of searing detail, but really engaging in terms of wanting to listen for longer, in spite of the obvious glossing over of really fine details. I believe that a conical/spherical tip tracks grooves with no time shift between channels as the groove wiggles, where a sharper tip profile does shift time very slightly as it turns (there is a diagram somewhere on the net that shows this); and I do wonder if that's the root of the conical/spherical tip listenability/musicality since the human auditory system (mainly the brain, in this instance) is very sensitive indeed to tiny time and phase anomalies.

Of course there are good and dreadful examples of cartridges with spherical/conical and other tip profiles, so this is a bit of a generalisation, but I'd be interesting in following Charlie's progress with the ESCo re-worked DL-103 and whether it retains the 'music maker' reputation of the original cartridge, while giving more in terms of 'HiFi'.

Fascinating observations. I have been making my own observations regarding the differences in timing between vinyl and digital playback. But it never occurred to me that there could be timing discrepancies between stylus shapes!

Turntable is a super sensitive mechanical contraption, and often even small changes tend to affect the sound. However, even ho-hum turntables have the capacity to outperform digital playback in terms of timing.

The issue, I think, is that we haven't really developed instrumentation/tooling to deal with measuring timing issues/discrepancies. Most of the metrics applied to the engineering of sound capturing/sound reproduction deal with static qualities. We sample a 'moment in time' and then examine it. Then we plot many adjacent moments in time and present them as a graph, to illustrate such KPIs as frequencies and amplitudes. But we don't have (or I haven't seen any) metrics that validate if each individual snapshot of a sound wave is properly coalescing with adjacent snapshots. And this coalescing, or gluing, is what produces the propulsion of the music reproduction.

So whenever I listen to the digital sound reproduction, even on an amazingly high end players/DACs, I always experience music as a collage. Switch over to vinyl, and even if it suffers from other inadequacies compared to digital, the timing, the flow is always much more convincing. Which is why I think many of us still prefer vinyl to digital.

MQA I think proposes to patch and fix this unpleasant patchwork that digital seems to deliver, but I haven't had extensive listening experience with MQA to make a call whether it indeed is successful in fixing the digital format.

Fiddlefye
21-03-2019, 04:46
I think that this highlights the issue about cartridges. On shouldn't look at cartridges alone. The most important items in the audio chain are the two sets of transducers - the front end (cartridge) and the back end (speakers).

Getting the transducers to work at their optimum depends on other factors. For cartridges, the crucial issue is the interaction with the arm - vibration transmission (and the effect of damping), bearing chatter, as well as resonant frequency of tonearm/cartridge (cartridge compliance, total effective mass etc). Every cartridge has a sweet spot, and the 103 is no different. You just have to find it in your own system.

The DL-103 likes mass, no doubt about it. One can get it to behave adequately with less, but it will not sound anywhere near potential.

Floyddroid
24-03-2019, 08:36
I think 103 is very good. However, I prefer the 110 in my system. I think the 110 is easier to match.