View Full Version : My recent experiences with synegistic research fuses
Discopants
17-03-2019, 17:19
Started off buying three 13 amp SR20 fuses second hand from a member here. Pleasantly pleased with the performance of these for the price. I put one in my mains block plug, one in my TDAI3400 mains lead and one in my Rel Stentor III subwoofer mains lead.
Overall the system sounded slightly more relaxed, and tighter focussed , a worthwhile investment but not ground breaking.
Inspired by the discovery that fuses can make a difference and after reading some threads i decided to take the plunge and try the newer and significantly more expensive blues at £130 each.
To be continued.
Discopants
17-03-2019, 17:27
I got the blues on a bit of a deal at 3 for £365. 30 day return as long as i only returned 1 opened, fair enough.....
I had done a lot of research on these and plenty of consumer reviews waxing lyrical about the improvements in sound quality after using these. That was mixed in with a few negative reviews and lots of intejections from electrical engineers who seem to be on a crusade to protect the vulnerable consumers from fuse snake oil.
Most beneficial in a source component apparently, but I spotify stream from my TDAI 3400. You need to pay close attention to the direction you place these fuses too.
Discopants
17-03-2019, 17:39
Im 15 days into using these now, they do go through a burn in process which swings the performance around a little , but never once sounding meh.
I’m actually blown away by the performance of these fuses and for my system they are undoubtedly the best tweak ive used from a value for money perspective.
So whats going on? In my system substantial reduction in noise floor, which seems to be the standard response from other satisfied users. This reveals itself in:
Details coming through in familiar tracks.
Soundstage is slightly wider, but deeper and focussed to the point that my speakers dissapear totally and instruments and voices have their own space.
Much cleaner Bass
Much more realistic music, I particularly notice that percussion is so much improved and realistic thats crisper beats and sustains on rings and chimes that seem to go on forever. Cymbals particularly realistic now, but this goes across the board to strings, brass and voice.
It all adds up to something quite beautiful and very unexpectedly good.
A brave decision to spend that kinda money on something as controversial as fuses. I believe and have heard their benefits but not heard the fuses you have bought. I don't doubt they have given you something extra in your system.
Well done for taking a punt, it sounds like if you can afford them they are a worthwhile investment.
Just hope you don't blow one!:eek:
Discopants
17-03-2019, 21:09
Jimbo, I would not have tried these if it wasnt for the 30 day trial offer. If I blow a fuse it would be painful, but not the end of the world. I’m going to be a lot more careful plugging things in and out for sure.
MikeMusic
18-03-2019, 17:45
Think I got my Reds on 30 days return
Once in there was no way they were going back
System changes leave me only needing one external fuse
Blue came in. Better than Red from new
Some weeks later..... still better
Think I got my Reds on 30 days return
Once in there was no way they were going back
System changes leave me only needing one external fuse
Blue came in. Better than Red from new
Some weeks later..... still better
Mike which cables / equipment have best responded to the use of ferrites?
Discopants
19-03-2019, 01:09
You should add it to your system signature Mike :facepull:
Think I got my Reds on 30 days return
Once in there was no way they were going back
System changes leave me only needing one external fuse
Blue came in. Better than Red from new
Some weeks later..... still better
Jimbo, I would not have tried these if it wasnt for the 30 day trial offer. If I blow a fuse it would be painful, but not the end of the world. I’m going to be a lot more careful plugging things in and out for sure.
I think it could be painful if you didn’t blow a fuse,that is after all their job!
Out of interest I tried some 'audiophile grade' fuses and found they made no difference at all (they weren't the SR ones though).
wee tee cee
19-03-2019, 15:27
I have 3 phonophisie ( i think thats the spelling) fuses in my system that have stayed in it for five years in various components.
I look at fuses like mains leads or balanced mains.....once purchased they are part of your systems architecture.
Aint blown one yet!!!
Have had 3 SR Blues in the main components of my setup for over a year, just make things sound better and fuses only blow if there’s something wrong with your kit in the first place...
Just sayin.
Oi lurves a nice wee 'fancy fuse', me...:eyebrows:
LDRs, cadmium, and 'fancy fuses' ROOL OK, ya bass:D
Gather together folks and do the Fancy-Fuse Foxtrot:dance::dance:
Marco.
gwernaffield
19-03-2019, 23:38
some ex dem in audioemotion . i always thought a fuse was a safety device,
Beobloke
20-03-2019, 17:37
some ex dem in audioemotion . i always thought a fuse was a safety device,
A fuse is a safety device, but if a fuse doesn’t meet the requirements of BS1362, there’s a chance it won’t be very safe at all.
blackmetalboon
20-03-2019, 18:35
A fuse is a safety device, but if a fuse doesn’t meet the requirements of BS1362, there’s a chance it won’t be very safe at all.
+1
I wouldn’t touch half of these audiophile fuses with a barge pole.
A fuse is a safety device, but if a fuse doesn’t meet the requirements of BS1362, there’s a chance it won’t be very safe at all.
I'd be more worried of the danger of Mrs Mutt finding out how much I paid for some fuses!
I tried a Black as a replacement for an internal fuse in a headamp. Bigger gains than mains fuses I thought. Still use it.
MikeMusic
21-03-2019, 15:02
Mike which cables / equipment have best responded to the use of ferrites?
Er, ferrite chokes ?
They are on everything else, not the system
Freeview box
Amazon Firestick
Postable phones
This laptop PSU
Fridge
Broadband router
Any 6 way adaptor in the house ans who knows what might be plugged in
Plus, plus
MikeMusic
21-03-2019, 15:04
You should add it to your system signature Mike :facepull:
Never thought.
Wonder what else I forgot ......
RobbieGong
21-03-2019, 17:12
I'd be more worried of the danger of Mrs Mutt finding out how much I paid for some fuses!
:lol:
I will start by admitting that I have never used a fancy fuse so have no first hand experience of them, however I've never stuck my hand in a mincer either but I still know it would do some serious damage.:lol:
I simply cannot fathom how or why a fuse can have any effect whatsoever on sound, I don't doubt that people genuinely believe they have heard an improvement but what is different about an "audiophile" fuse compared to a basic 4 for 99p fuse from B&Q. A well known purveyor of dubious audio improvement products (whose initials are RA) suggests (he can't directly claim) that wiping fuses with his magic solution might somehow do something or other. All a fuse is is a piece of wire, designed to melt at a certain ampage, inside a glass tube with a metal cap at each end, that really doesn't leave you much to play around with in terms of design or materials.
Even assuming it is possible to somehow make a fuse "alter" the electricity going through it, that electricity then has to travel through many cables and components, most importantly the unit's transformer which totally alters the voltage and current and changes it from AC to DC, before it gets anywhere near anything that converts the electricity into sound.
Taking that into account can anyone explain how these super fuses do what they do?
Light Dependant Resistor
12-04-2019, 02:59
I will start by admitting that I have never used a fancy fuse so have no first hand experience of them, however I've never stuck my hand in a mincer either but I still know it would do some serious damage.:lol:
I simply cannot fathom how or why a fuse can have any effect whatsoever on sound, I don't doubt that people genuinely believe they have heard an improvement but what is different about an "audiophile" fuse compared to a basic 4 for 99p fuse from B&Q. A well known purveyor of dubious audio improvement products (whose initials are RA) suggests (he can't directly claim) that wiping fuses with his magic solution might somehow do something or other. All a fuse is is a piece of wire, designed to melt at a certain ampage, inside a glass tube with a metal cap at each end, that really doesn't leave you much to play around with in terms of design or materials.
Even assuming it is possible to somehow make a fuse "alter" the electricity going through it, that electricity then has to travel through many cables and components, most importantly the unit's transformer which totally alters the voltage and current and changes it from AC to DC, before it gets anywhere near anything that converts the electricity into sound.
Taking that into account can anyone explain how these super fuses do what they do?
Regarding super fuses, I understand this as a super duper marketing effort to convince the masses, but very little actual science to back up the marketing
Fuses and the way they interface with AC and also DC, are a serious subject to themselves, to those manufacturers who patiently follow their correct traditional construction.
Transformers following the standard fuse require diodes followed by capacitors at a minimum,( but also inductors are good to use ) to convert AC to DC
Regarding super fuses, I understand this as a super duper marketing effort to convince the masses, but very little actual science to back up the marketing
Fuses and the way they interface with AC and also DC, are a serious subject to themselves, to those manufacturers who patiently follow their correct traditional construction.
Transformers following the standard fuse require diodes followed by capacitors at a minimum,( but also inductors are good to use ) to convert AC to DC
My, admittedly limited, understanding of transformers is that the primary and secondary coils totally isolate the incoming current from the outgoing current (inductive?) surely this means that not only has this converted it from ac to dc but the voltage and current are different, doesn't this mean that any "effect" a fuse or cable may have before the transformer has been totally lost in the conversion?
Light Dependant Resistor
12-04-2019, 04:56
My, admittedly limited, understanding of transformers is that the primary and secondary coils totally isolate the incoming current from the outgoing current (inductive?) surely this means that not only has this converted it from ac to dc but the voltage and current are different, doesn't this mean that any "effect" a fuse or cable may have before the transformer has been totally lost in the conversion?
A transformer indeed has primary and secondary windings. A typical expression is 240v primary supplying 12v AC x2 @ a particular current rating VA ( volt Ampere )
However to convert from AC to DC is usually done with diodes in the majority of equipment, but alternatives are valve rectifiers, mosfets, thyristors or purpose built
integrated circuits like the LT4320 that requires 4 x N channel mosfets.
The diodes switch the incoming AC supply to provide a partial rectification to DC - but rely heavily on capacitors and better with inductors and capacitors to
provide Direct Current ( DC). There is relationship usually expressed as requiring 1000uf of capacitance for every DC amp of current drawn. Nice variations
on this are to use the current gain characteristic of a semiconductor (hfe) to multiply capacitance.
Within the topic of rectifiers there are half wave ( not recommended for any audio purpose ) or full wave rectifiers
A really good supply will have initial rectification best done with mosfets and thyristors rather than diodes, then satisfy the 1000uf of capacitance for every DC amp of current drawn.
It will then have inductance to counter capacitance ( the two working well together ) and use a capacitance multiplier, and typically regulation of current more so than voltage.
The equipment being supplied current will have particular needs to be met ie voltage or current regulation or combinations of each.
There will also be polarity requirements from the rectification to supply positive voltages or negative voltages or both - seen in the majority of amplifiers. (The Quad 303 being an exception which is
just positive rail ) Where two polarities are required this is best done with discrete rectifiers for each polarity, and even better for each channel derived from separate transformers.
This of course describes Linear supplies , switch mode are quite different https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply
Light Dependant Resistor
12-04-2019, 05:31
My, admittedly limited, understanding of transformers is that the primary and secondary coils totally isolate the incoming current from the outgoing current (inductive?) surely this means that not only has this converted it from ac to dc but the voltage and current are different, doesn't this mean that any "effect" a fuse or cable may have before the transformer has been totally lost in the conversion?
Sorry I missed your ending question. A fuse itself has almost no resistance, and electrically can be viewed as a current rated piece of wire to any given circuit. Its requirements are to
cease its connectivity when a current greater than its rating is being passed from the load ( be that a direct short or variations less than a short ) As such a fuse really has no
electrical characteristic other than tiny amounts of resistance of its own. Measure fuse super duper for resistance vs ordinary fuse with same current rating in each, If its a fuse
being sold - it will have resistance of 0.00 ohms or very close to that.
Yes, it is being swamped by other electrical characteristics from nearby transformers with inductance and to a degree some capacitance internal
in the transformer itself. A transformers internal wiring is for instance many thousands of times longer.
For a fuse to be any different requires some declaration of a component or electrical characteristic that it claims as benefit to passing AC - I cannot see this occurring in a so called super duper fuse at all
hence it is more likely a marketing exercise.
Er, ferrite chokes ?
They are on everything else, not the system
Freeview box
Amazon Firestick
Postable phones
This laptop PSU
Fridge
Broadband router
Any 6 way adaptor in the house ans who knows what might be plugged in
Plus, plus
I recently bought a bag of ferrite chokes and put them on everything. There's still loads of them left over. Unlike the fancy fuses they cost next to nothing so why not? I could not discern any difference in sound quality. I suppose it is possible that I did not have a problem to solve.
AJSki2fly
12-04-2019, 06:58
Sorry I missed your ending question. A fuse itself has almost no resistance, and electrically can be viewed as a current rated piece of wire to any given circuit. Its requirements are to
cease its connectivity when a current greater than its rating is being passed from the load ( be that a direct short or variations less than a short ) As such a fuse really has no
electrical characteristic other than tiny amounts of resistance of its own. Measure fuse super duper for resistance vs ordinary fuse with same current rating in each, If its a fuse
being sold - it will have resistance of 0.00 ohms or very close to that.
Yes, it is being swamped by other electrical characteristics from nearby transformers with inductance and to a degree some capacitance internal
in the transformer itself. A transformers internal wiring is for instance many thousands of times longer.
For a fuse to be any different requires some declaration of a component or electrical characteristic that it claims as benefit to passing AC - I cannot see this occurring in a so called super duper fuse at all
hence it is more likely a marketing exercise.
Personally I agree, I think a super duper fuse is about to have a much impact on my system as I am breaking wind in a force 9 gale. :rolleyes:
on face of it, that would seem likely, but people, who are often relatively skeptical have found that they do make a difference, so who knows....
jandl100
12-04-2019, 08:00
I recently bought a bag of ferrite chokes and put them on everything. There's still loads of them left over. Unlike the fancy fuses they cost next to nothing so why not? I could not discern any difference in sound quality. I suppose it is possible that I did not have a problem to solve.
Yes, that matches my experience with ferrite chokes. Bugger all difference.
I do hear differences with fuses, though - some of the cheaper hifi ones just seem to make the sound brighter so whether you like it or not depends on where you want the tonal balance to be headed.
Others (more expensive, sadly, like the SR ones) do seem to me to make an improvement all round - imaging, dynamics etc).
I went through an enthusiastic fuse period, but I can't be bothered with it now.
--- I think the break point for me came when I included a mains lead with an expensive SR fuse in with some gear I sold on ebay without realising it. :doh:
Kind of put me off the whole thing. :lol:
walpurgis
12-04-2019, 08:15
Seems to me that claiming benefits from employing a 'boutique' fuse or mains lead is much similar to asserting that your car runs better if the fuel enters the tank via a 'posh' bit of hose.
Beobloke
12-04-2019, 08:49
on face of it, that would seem likely, but people, who are often relatively skeptical have found that they do make a difference, so who knows....
But then, some people also believe in ghosts and think that the Earth was created in seven days by a bloke with a natty beard...
But then, some people also believe in ghosts and think that the Earth was created in seven days by a bloke with a natty beard...
both may be true. if you only believe in science, you narrow your thought processes ... personally i find the idea hard to see how it could work, but as i say, i cannot say definitively is doesnt, just as i cant say there is no god. As for ghosts/spirits, well, then i have had an experience; no proof, but it did alter me as a person and the way i think.
. As for ghosts/spirits, well, then i have had an experience; no proof, but it did alter me as a person and the way i think.
Yes, I would also not be too quick to dismiss the 'supernatural' as nonsense although I did use to. There may be an as yet unknown scientific explanation for the phenomena but to say there is no phenomena to begin with is just wrong.
I think the key difference between religious/supernatural beliefs and fuses/conditioners/cables/whatever is the unlikelihood of the former influencing others.
When people post their perceptions of hifi gear it is stated in almost factual manner, "I bought this and the bass tightened up, soundstage opened out, vocals became cleaner etc"
Imagine the incredulous comments if somebody posted in the abstract chat section "I bought a bible and got a promotion at work, my wife stopped complaining and my golf improved"
Well if they took fuse out and the bass loosened It would make it more proof that it was the fuse and not because they glimpsed his neighbours knickers on the washing line [emoji23]
If they took the fuse out they wouldn't hear anything! But I know what you are saying.
After any change is made, I find it useful to live with the change for a week or two, then revert back to the original arrangement. That way, what initially was perceived as an 'improvement] might simply be a 'difference'.
Discopants
13-04-2019, 15:15
Well I’ve been doing some more tweaking with a graphene based contact enhancer on my system lately so I’ve been in all the plugs. I didn’t put the silver bussman fuse back in but I did reverse the SR fuse on the mains block and had a listen and I only played 2 tracks before putting it back the correct way. It was like listening with ear muffs on.
Its hard to imagine how a fuse makes such a noticeable difference let alone why reversing the direction of the fuse would make any difference.... Yet it does and these are offered with 30 day trial or return with lots of happy customers who report hearing much better sound from their systems. No doubt its system dependant and im sure they get a few returns, however this is certainly not a voodoo marketing exercise and I trust my own ears.
Thanks
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Beobloke
13-04-2019, 17:11
Imagine the incredulous comments if somebody posted in the abstract chat section "I bought a bible and got a promotion at work, my wife stopped complaining and my golf improved"
Heck, I’d buy a bible if it improves my golf game...
scotty38
13-04-2019, 17:51
Well I’ve been doing some more tweaking with a graphene based contact enhancer on my system lately so I’ve been in all the plugs. I didn’t put the silver bussman fuse back in but I did reverse the SR fuse on the mains block and had a listen and I only played 2 tracks before putting it back the correct way. It was like listening with ear muffs on.
Its hard to imagine how a fuse makes such a noticeable difference let alone why reversing the direction of the fuse would make any difference.... Yet it does and these are offered with 30 day trial or return with lots of happy customers who report hearing much better sound from their systems. No doubt its system dependant and im sure they get a few returns, however this is certainly not a voodoo marketing exercise and I trust my own ears.
Thanks
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
This is the thing I have difficulty with. I can accept a difference but this level of difference I cannot understand. Covering your speakers with a quilt would sound like listening with ear muffs, not turning a fuse around.....
Using the fancy fuse the wrong way round sounds worse than using a normal fuse?
walpurgis
13-04-2019, 18:25
Using the fancy fuse the wrong way round sounds worse than using a normal fuse?
Yes. For goodness sake don't get the polarity wrong, the electricity will be pulling when it's supposed to be pushing. :)
Discopants
13-04-2019, 18:32
Using the fancy fuse the wrong way round sounds worse than using a normal fuse?
I didn’t directly compare but they both sound significantly worse than the fuse the right way.
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Discopants
13-04-2019, 18:33
Yes. For goodness sake don't get the polarity wrong, the electricity will be pulling when it's supposed to be pushing. :)
Yes its bizarre but something is going on directionally.
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blackmetalboon
13-04-2019, 18:41
I never would have guessed AC current was directional!
Discopants
13-04-2019, 18:41
This is the thing I have difficulty with. I can accept a difference but this level of difference I cannot understand. Covering your speakers with a quilt would sound like listening with ear muffs, not turning a fuse around.....
Well i would imagine covering the speakers with a quilt to be much worse than listening with earmuffs, what I heard was a much flatter sound less top end sparkle , less definition in the bass (i tend to notice differences in the extremes more readily but I think it was right across the range. Smaller soundstage and generally less interesting less musicality.
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Yes. For goodness sake don't get the polarity wrong, the electricity will be pulling when it's supposed to be pushing. :)
Doesn't it do that already - 50 times a second? (Or 60 times a second in the US and parts (!) of Japan.)
How can a waveform which is AC, ie. the current travels each way alternately, be better acived by a fuse being one way or the other?
This is like speaker cables supposedly having directionality, when, although asymmetrical, the current waveform is also alternate.
(Kimber with arrows on).
Bigman80
13-04-2019, 23:04
How can a waveform which is AC, ie. the current travels each way alternately, be better acived by a fuse being one way or the other?
This is like speaker cables supposedly having directionality, when, although asymmetrical, the current waveform is also alternate.
(Kimber with arrows on).There are arguments that cables can be directional, due to the crystal structure of the metal, and will sound different depending on which way round they are hooked up. You'll have to try this yourself to see if you hear a difference. I know what I think!
With interconnects, a braided cable like Kimber, or a shielded Speaker cable, the shield has been left unconnected on one end to help with noise reduction.
The grounded end is usually recommended to be connected at the source.
The arrows usually depict the direction away from the shielded end, like my cables do!
mad-moon
13-04-2019, 23:14
I will start by admitting that I have never used a fancy fuse so have no first hand experience of them, however I've never stuck my hand in a mincer either but I still know it would do some serious damage.:lol:
I simply cannot fathom how or why a fuse can have any effect whatsoever on sound, I don't doubt that people genuinely believe they have heard an improvement but what is different about an "audiophile" fuse compared to a basic 4 for 99p fuse from B&Q. A well known purveyor of dubious audio improvement products (whose initials are RA) suggests (he can't directly claim) that wiping fuses with his magic solution might somehow do something or other. All a fuse is is a piece of wire, designed to melt at a certain ampage, inside a glass tube with a metal cap at each end, that really doesn't leave you much to play around with in terms of design or materials.
Even assuming it is possible to somehow make a fuse "alter" the electricity going through it, that electricity then has to travel through many cables and components, most importantly the unit's transformer which totally alters the voltage and current and changes it from AC to DC, before it gets anywhere near anything that converts the electricity into sound.
Taking that into account can anyone explain how these super fuses do what they do?
Why do we all have different amplifiers??..why is one capacitor better than another...why is one tweeter better than another, why is one voice coil better than another... why does silver, gold, aluminium, copper and rhodium sound different when electricity is passed through it..ie..why do silver interconnects sound brighter than copper interconnects...why do cable manufacturers invest millions in the construction of cables..infact why does a hifi manufacturer invest so much money in hifi at all....I'll bet your interconnects are not the cheapest thing you could by...why do you use expensive interconnects, they are only transfering a signal...it's ony a piece of wire...why do these heavy top quality speaker cables sound better than bell wire...it's only wire transfering a signal to the speakers....truth be known..nobody does, but they all make a difference....everybody's hearing is different...try a fuse and then, make a comment...if you can't hear the difference, you can't here it..if you can..well... the sky's your limit...
mad-moon
13-04-2019, 23:20
How can a waveform which is AC, ie. the current travels each way alternately, be better acived by a fuse being one way or the other?
This is like speaker cables supposedly having directionality, when, although asymmetrical, the current waveform is also alternate.
(Kimber with arrows on).
You're asking the question....it would serve better if you explain how it can't?
mad-moon
13-04-2019, 23:26
this is an age old discussion, which will eventually turn ugly....it normally does
The crystal structure of metals only affects the resistive losses and is completely non-directional. Resistive losses are caused by two effects: electron scattering by electron-electron collision, and electron scattering by the crystal boundaries and dislocations. The former accounts for about 85% of the losses, the latter about 15%.
Taken to the extreme, even if the 'fuse' acted like a perfect diode so that, say, only the positive-going half of the AC sinusoid was passed, if the diode was then reversed then only the negative-going half would pass. Since the mains waveform is symmetrical, the diode effect would 'sound' the same, regardless of direction.
Discopants
13-04-2019, 23:42
The crystal structure of metals only affects the resistive losses and is completely non-directional. Resistive losses are caused by two effects: electron scattering by electron-electron collision, and electron scattering by the crystal boundaries and dislocations. The former accounts for about 85% of the losses, the latter about 15%.
Taken to the extreme, even if the 'fuse' acted like a perfect diode so that, say, only the positive-going half of the AC sinusoid was passed, if the diode was then reversed then only the negative-going half would pass. Since the mains waveform is symmetrical, the diode effect would 'sound' the same, regardless of direction.
Maybe the internal of the fuse isnt just a piece of wire......
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Maybe the internal of the fuse isnt just a piece of wire......
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I didn't say it was. My comments about resistive losses in metals was in reply tp Oliver's post.
As far as I understand your fuses involve a graphene film - a monatomic graphite layer. I assume this has a linear transfer characteristic, that is it is purely resistive. Even if it is not linear, and has a diode characteristic, while this would affect the performance of anything downstream of it, the effect would not be changed by turning the fuse around.
If your fuses are intended to be directional, I would have thought the manufacturer would have marked the preferred direction on the body of the fuse. Does the manufacturer have anything to say about the directionality?
Discopants
14-04-2019, 00:02
I didn't say it was. My comments about resistive losses in metals was in reply tp Oliver's post.
As far as I understand your fuses involve a graphene film - a monatomic graphite layer. I assume this has a linear transfer characteristic, that is it is purely resistive. Even if it is not linear, and has a diode characteristic, while this would affect the performance of anything downstream of it, the effect would not be changed by turning the fuse around.
If your fuses are intended to be directional, I would have thought the manufacturer would have marked the preferred direction on the body of the fuse. Does the manufacturer have anything to say about the directionality?
Yes they say they are directional and to follow the direction of the lettering with the path of the power. Also they have a little black dot of material in the middle of the fuse that they say not to remove. Looks a bit like velcro fabric (not hooks).
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Well your findings would seem to confirm the manufacturer's recommendation, though I would have been better if you had been unaware of the change of direction and thus remove possible 'expectation bias'.
As long as you are pleased with the results (and you are not the only one who is), then that is all that really matters.
walpurgis
14-04-2019, 07:37
Why do we all have different amplifiers??..why is one capacitor better than another...why is one tweeter better than another, why is one voice coil better than another... why does silver, gold, aluminium, copper and rhodium sound different when electricity is passed through it..ie..why do silver interconnects sound brighter than copper interconnects...why do cable manufacturers invest millions in the construction of cables..infact why does a hifi manufacturer invest so much money in hifi at all....I'll bet your interconnects are not the cheapest thing you could by...why do you use expensive interconnects, they are only transfering a signal...it's ony a piece of wire...why do these heavy top quality speaker cables sound better than bell wire...it's only wire transfering a signal to the speakers....truth be known..nobody does, but they all make a difference....everybody's hearing is different...try a fuse and then, make a comment...if you can't hear the difference, you can't here it..if you can..well... the sky's your limit...
Some things are perceived to work better than others, sometimes for good reason. But unfortunately it's all the maybe's that encourage the snakeoil merchants and puts money in their pockets.
Oliva, I had both Kimber 4TC and 8TC some time ago, and which were described as directional.
Whilst I didn't try the 'wrong way', there appeared to be no structural difference at least.
There is a misconception that a signal travels in one direction from a pre to a power amp, or from a power amp to a speaker.
It does not, what is going on is only the coupling of circuits in a loop, source and load, and although "source" seems to imply that there is, as in the source of water flowing in a river, there is no overall energy going irreversibly in one direction; it is all circular flow, in a loop.
Some time ago I came across an illustration of a speaker connection including a key, some (oven) tin foil, and a paper clip in a speaker connection, shown, DB I seem to remember, not to be perceivable with and without them in circuit.
DBB tests are the way, especially to avoid placebophilia.
if you dont believe in directionality etc why didn't you put them in the other way round?
I did a search to see if anyone had done any proper blind testing with fuses but could not find anything.
"if you dont believe in directionality etc why didn't you put them in the other way round? "
At that time Grant I was so sceptical I didn't bother - slightly arrogantly dismissive objectivist.
DBT is hard work, and we need a lab in which to do it on everything, but life and time constraints seem to preclude it.
Not that I am unwilling to do work on this, there can't be many people who carried a paraline along the Strand to set it up at BBC premises for evaluation, and later a pair of Tannoy Gold 15s, didn't carry those though.
I believe in cable directionality - I make up all my own cables which invariably use different connectors at each end (balanced XLR, so different sex connectors at the ends), therefore can only be used in one 'direction'. It is physically impossible to reverse them. Even the few unbalanced interconnects used in my system have different connectors at their ends.
A lot of work, or money to make two sets with opposite polarity, and then you've wasted the money on one pair until you can find a use for the spare cable.
Beobloke
15-04-2019, 09:05
Cables are only directional if they have different connectors at either end.
Yes, if they are only shielded at one end then there may be a better way to connect them from the point of view of shielding but this does not make them ‘directional’ per se.
walpurgis
15-04-2019, 13:23
The perfect cable or fuse would have exactly the same characteristics in either direction, in other words properly bi-polar. If not, there's something wrong with it!
Why do we all have different amplifiers??..why is one capacitor better than another...why is one tweeter better than another, why is one voice coil better than another... why does silver, gold, aluminium, copper and rhodium sound different when electricity is passed through it..ie..why do silver interconnects sound brighter than copper interconnects...why do cable manufacturers invest millions in the construction of cables..infact why does a hifi manufacturer invest so much money in hifi at all....I'll bet your interconnects are not the cheapest thing you could by...why do you use expensive interconnects, they are only transfering a signal...it's ony a piece of wire...why do these heavy top quality speaker cables sound better than bell wire...it's only wire transfering a signal to the speakers....truth be known..nobody does, but they all make a difference....everybody's hearing is different...try a fuse and then, make a comment...if you can't hear the difference, you can't here it..if you can..well... the sky's your limit...
Assuming you believe that they do, it's for one very simple reason, to try to convince potential customers that their products are better than their competitors so that they can make a profit.
If they truly had any conviction in their product they could make a very easy $1million by taking up James Randi's challenge and proving their cable sounds better, oddly not one has yet done so, surely you have to wonder why?
I have 3 sets of interconnects costing between £9 and £125 and I can hear absolutely no difference between them whatsoever
Assuming you believe that they do, it's for one very simple reason, to try to convince potential customers that their products are better than their competitors so that they can make a profit.
If they truly had any conviction in their product they could make a very easy $1million by taking up James Randi's challenge and proving their cable sounds better, oddly not one has yet done so, surely you have to wonder why?
I have 3 sets of interconnects costing between £9 and £125 and I can hear absolutely no difference between them whatsoever
Actually Randi withdrew his challenge when he was advised that speaker cables can actually sound different. He reworked it so you can only use cables that have exactly the same LCR characteristics.
Assuming you believe that they do, it's for one very simple reason, to try to convince potential customers that their products are better than their competitors so that they can make a profit.
If they truly had any conviction in their product they could make a very easy $1million by taking up James Randi's n challenge and proving their cable sounds better, oddly not one has yet done so, surely you have to wonder why?
I have 3 sets of interconnects costing between £9 and £125 and I can hear absolutely no difference between them whatsoever
I’ve owned cables worth a few quid to thousands (Per meter) and have heard differences between them.
Also got angry at manufacturers (and Forum Peeps in the last 20 yrs or so) saying that it must sound better cos it cost more.
Funny old game innit? :)
I have no problem with anybody spending their money on thousand pound cables, fuses, plugs or whatever and if they're happy with the result, good for them.
What I do object to is when they intentionally or inadvertently influence others to do the same (this isn't aimed at the OP) by singing the praises of their latest purchase as though it is factual and, worse still, suggesting anyone who says anything to the contrary is stupid, deaf or their equipment isn't good enough to exploit the difference (in fairness I haven't seen this behaviour on this forum but it is certainly prevelant on others)
I have no problem with anybody spending their money on thousand pound cables, fuses, plugs or whatever and if they're happy with the result, good for them.
What I do object to is when they intentionally or inadvertently influence others to do the same (this isn't aimed at the OP) by singing the praises of their latest purchase as though it is factual and, worse still, suggesting anyone who says anything to the contrary is stupid, deaf or their equipment isn't good enough to exploit the difference (in fairness I haven't seen this behaviour on this forum but it is certainly prevelant on others)
Good post, and expresses exactly my feelings on the matter.
Cables are only directional if they have different connectors at either end.
Yes, if they are only shielded at one end then there may be a better way to connect them from the point of view of shielding but this does not make them ‘directional’ per se.
My post was meant to be slightly sarcastic - to which the correct response would have been to ask if I checked for directionality of the cable itself, before I fitted the connectors. I did not, as I don't believe in cable directionality. In most cases any markings on the cable: manufacturer's logo or cable type tend to run from the source end to the load, but not always. With some of my cables there is no marking whatsoever on the outer sheath.
Even shielded two conductor cables wired in a so-called 'semi balanced' arrangement, which as you correctly point out, requires the end in which the screen is connected to the return to be at the 'source' end, doesn't say anything that the cable itself has directional properties.
Agree 100%, and good post Gaz.
This forums one of the better ones for that, and that kinda nonsense from people is one of the worst parts of the hobby to me.
Though speaking as a “Subjectivist”, I’d put forward that it works both ways?
I’d never argue with someone over what they are hearing in their own system with their own ears, I’d just have no opinion of my own until I heard the kit for myself.
Not gonna tell anyone they are wrong in what they hear, but as you say, easy to cross the line and put the emphasis on other people must hear the same thing (If their kits up to snuff, ears golden enough etc)
Agree 100%, and good post Gaz.
This forums one of the better ones for that, and that kinda nonsense from people is one of the worst parts of the hobby to me.
Though speaking as a “Subjectivist”, I’d put forward that it works both ways?
I’d never argue with someone over what they are hearing in their own system with their own ears, I’d just have no opinion of my own until I heard the kit for myself.
Not gonna tell anyone they are wrong in what they hear, but as you say, easy to cross the line and put the emphasis on other people must hear the same thing (If their kits up to snuff, ears golden enough etc)
I'm always very careful to say that I'm sure people genuinely believe they've heard an improvement with whatever they're talking about. I sincerely doubt anybody would intentionally come on a forum saying a product had improved their system unless they believed that to be the case.
I'm a great believer in expectation bias and am certainly not immune to it myself having been caught out in a blind tasting of cola drinks when I found my favourite brand was actually my least favourite when I didn't know what it was.
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