View Full Version : One for the Sussex Coast Members.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-A90-MC-phono-cartridge-moving-coil-turntable-stylus/132980964164?hash=item1ef6487b44:g:3Z0AAOSwDNRcgrU 8
I was forwarded this link by another forum member.
It would be rude not to share.
Been drooling over that for a couple of days now, bloody wash basket is full of T shirts with stained fronts.
There has got to be a home demo, surely :eyebrows:
Maybe...... But after Keggy, need to see if my Rock MK2 & OL Aurora Gold MK2 sell whilst I'm there along with my 70s system and other bits I'm taking for the sale table. Don't want to hear it & want it but have to give it back.
Hifi pennies bucket is totally empty having bought a Tron Seven and Brinkmann Bardo in the last month.
I'd rather have a nice SPU!;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
13-03-2019, 22:26
I'd rather have a nice SPU!;)
Marco.
You and ya fuller flavours :lol:
Either way this anniversary A90 will be very neutral and not have much of a flavour in itself allowing the music to flow out naturally and in all it's glory.
The A95 from what I know improves on that even further, extremely neutral but even more dynamic.
This A90 will be a superb buy for someone at that price, especially if it's in perfect working order with not too many hours on it - it's cheap fo what it is, It'll be gone in no time :)
I'd rather have a nice SPU!;)
Marco.
AFAIK, the Ortofon A90, A95 and A100 are the latest incarnations of the SPU. Sans the whale-shaped headshell, and in some cases 'nuded', but the SPU 'DNA' is still there.
You and ya fuller flavours :lol:
Either way this anniversary A90 will be very neutral and not have much of a flavour in itself allowing the music to flow out naturally and in all it's glory.
The A95 from what I know improves on that even further, extremely neutral but even more dynamic.
This A90 will be a superb buy for someone at that price, especially if it's in perfect working order with not too many hours on it - it's cheap fo what it is, It'll be gone in no time :)
Umm.... All I'll say is each to his or her own;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
13-03-2019, 22:43
AFAIK, the Ortofon A90, A95 and A100 are the latest incarnations of the SPU. Sans the whale-shaped headshell, and in some cases 'nuded', but the SPU 'DNA' is still there.
My understanding is that the A90, A95 and Century are completely different cartridges to a SPU.
Yes a SPU has the SPU dna and all that makes it a SPU, but I've never heard that that same dna that makes a SPU a SPU is in the non SPU carts ie: Cadenza, Windfeld, Expression, A90, A95, Anna, Century - never heard there's something 'SPU' carried over to them, if you know what I mean
RobbieGong
13-03-2019, 22:43
Umm.... All I'll say is each to his or her own;)
Marco.
Me too Marco :D
AFAIK, the Ortofon A90, A95 and A100 are the latest incarnations of the SPU. Sans the whale-shaped headshell, and in some cases 'nuded', but the SPU 'DNA' is still there.
Doesn't sound like it then, Barry! To my ears, that DNA has slowly, but significantly through the years, been diluted/eroded...
If you were to listen to, say, the SPU-G/T I had, from 1958, and any current production 'whale-shaped' headshell variety, let alone an A90, you'd instantly hear the fundamental change in voicing. The catalyst for that change, IMO, was when Alnico magnets were swapped for supposedly 'superior' rare-earth types, although changes in stylus profiles have also played their part.
For me, that's when the 'magic' went, and SPUs started to no longer sound like (true) SPUs.
Marco.
I've never heard any of Ortofon's 'Anniversary' cartridges, so cannot compare them with my SPU or other '60s Ortofon designs (the S-15TE, SL15E and SL15E Mk.II) and comment on the "dilution" of the SPU 'sound. But regarding the appellation 'SPU' to the Anniversary series I can only refer you to Ortofon's brochure:
http://www.audiotuning.com/images/Ortofon/Ortofon%20SPU-A95-Brochure.pdf
Well, I'd rather have one of those, than that thing in the ebay advert earlier!:eyebrows:
Trust me though, if you were to listen to that SPU A95 and compare it with a quality vintage one, such as I mentioned, the fundamental change in voicing would be obvious. The main thing that's been diluted is the power/low-end heft that used to be synonymous with SPUs, and heard in all its glory with the reproduction of large orchestral scores, brass instruments and piano.
Modern SPUs sound rather 'weedy' and musically un-involving in comparison, although they're certainly brim-full of clarity and 'top-end sparkle', if that's your bag;)
It's rather like listening to a Koetsu Black K, from the Sugano-san era [ideally, early 1980s], and the current ones, produced by his son. Sonically, totally different animals, yet claiming to be the same beast!
Marco.
Like all electromechanical transducers, cartridges (and speakers) are the least well developed, hence they all display the most flaws, idiosyncratic traits, strengths and weaknesses and 'character'. As such (like speakers), no one manufacturer's design will suit everyone. It's all a matter of taste.
Like you, I tend to prefer the vintage designs from Ortofon, EMT and Denon, however there are a couple of 'newer' designs from Van den Hul and Ikeda that I do find very satisfying to my ears.
I'm still mystified by the attraction and preference by some for Alnico magnets, over the newer rare earth formulations. To me a magnetic field is a magnetic field, regardless of how it is produced (is one's mains supply any different if it produced by a wind farm, a nuclear reactor, or is solar generated?). Yet I have read comments and opinions from guitar players stating they prefer alnico magnets in their guitar pickups. One of Audio Note's cartridges eschews a magnet altogether, and uses a field coil to generate the magnetic field.
hifi_dave
14-03-2019, 10:14
Well, I'd rather have one of those, than that thing in the earlier ebay advert!:eyebrows:
Trust me though, if you were to listen to that SPU A95 and compare it with a quality vintage one, such as I mentioned, the fundamental change in voicing would be obvious. The main thing that's been diluted is the power/low-end heft that used to be synonymous with SPUs, and heard in all its glory with the reproduction of large orchestral scores, brass instruments and piano.
Modern SPUs sound rather 'weedy' and musically un-involving in comparison, although they're certainly brim-full of clarity and 'top-end sparkle', if that's your bag;)
It's rather like listening to a Koetsu Black K, from the Sugano-san era [ideally, early 1980s], and the current ones, produced by his son. Sonically, totally different animals, yet claiming to be the same beast!
Marco.
I'd go along with that. IMO they have gone too far along the 'information retrieval, clean' route and now sound thinner and uninvolving.
I'd go along with that. IMO they have gone too far along the 'information retrieval, clean' route and now sound thinner and uninvolving.
Exactly my view Dave, based on listening experience - and you'd also know, as you've been selling them for years! In terms of the above, it's now become Ortofon's 'house sound', and present in pretty much all of their cartridges, MMs and MCs.
Soul and emotion have been traded for someone's mistaken notion of 'accuracy'...
Marco.
Like you, I tend to prefer the vintage designs from Ortofon, EMT and Denon, however there are a couple of 'newer' designs from Van den Hul and Ikeda that I do find very satisfying to my ears.
I think if you did some research, you'd find that early examples of the above all feature Alnico magnets.
Alnicos are also used in vintage Tannoys, and other well-regarded vintage speakers, all of which inherently produce a sound that I consider is synonymous with Alnico: warm/rich bass, but not wooly or excessively coloured, and with a lovely liquid and lucid midrange quality, and sweet (detailed but not bright) reproduction of high-frequencies, much of which is notably absent when Alnico isn't in the equation.
I'm still mystified by the attraction and preference by some for Alnico magnets, over the newer rare earth formulations. To me a magnetic field is a magnetic field, regardless of how it is produced (is one's mains supply any different if it produced by a wind farm, a nuclear reactor, or is solar generated?). Yet I have read comments and opinions from guitar players stating they prefer alnico magnets in their guitar pickups.
Probably because they too can hear the difference. I can't tell you why that opinion exists; merely report what I hear, and have heard for years with Alnico magnets, when used in various pieces of equipment, whilst pondering whether it's all simply a 'happy accident'....
Marco.
my speakers use Alnico magnets. Ive found them to punch well above expectations... whether its because of the mags, I dont know for sure, but believe its certainly part of it.
my speakers use Alnico magnets. Ive found them to punch well above expectations... whether its because of the mags, I dont know for sure, but believe its certainly part of it.
Yup, your Telefunkens defo come under the category of "other well-regarded vintage speakers":)
One day you'll have to hear them with valves (which they were designed to partner), as trust me mate, you're currently only enjoying a fraction of their potential.
Marco.
Yup, your Telefunkens come under the category of "other well-regarded vintage speakers":)
One day you'll have to hear them with valves (which they were designed to partner), as trust me mate, you're currently only enjoying a fraction of their potential.
Marco.
although they are very sensitive they seem to benefit from a bit of current availability up em to keep them fluid. also seem to like short speaker cables, so monos are the way to go i think, or a really good powerfull valve job... maybe 40/50 watts. may not get dial round too far but should sound good.
I had sold my wad amp before i made these double driver versions, but the single ones sounded good with it.
Beobloke
14-03-2019, 12:48
The A90 linked to originally has nothing to do with the SPU series models or their construction.
And is all the better for it, IMHO.... :D :piano:
montesquieu
14-03-2019, 14:21
I have had Petrat's SPU 95th Anniversary in my setup a couple of times now. It's a truly stunning cartridge and there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that it's a proper SPU. As opposed to the Replicant 100 (essential a Fritz Geiger S) used in the SPU Royal and Royal N (with their gold coils) the SPU 95 uses an elliptical much like any Ortofon elliptical throughout the ages, except that instead of alloy or wood headshell it uses a titanium headshell which is uber-rigid - for that reason it extracts more detail than a standard SPU, without the stylus profile changing the original SPU character by very much.
I have a vintage (60s) SPU GE (formerly coming back to me shortly after having had a new cantilever + FG elliptical tip (I'm assuming much the same as on the SPU 95) ... it will be used in a wooden headshell from the chap selling them in Germany - that should be entertaining. The old vintage SPUs certainly have a vintage charm, in part I'm sure from the Alnico magnets with the GT versions also benefiting from the internal SUTs which though limited in bandwidth and so on by their tiny size do nevertheless make a lovely match and benefit from the very short signal path.
However ... I fundamentally disagree that anything made after the magnets changed is not a proper SPU or indeed is necessarily lacking in any way compared to the old ones. The modern ones have their own charms and do many things the vintage ones don't do. I'm speaking as owner/former owner of SPU Silver Meister, SPU Gold, SPU Spirit, SPU Royal N, SPU #1S and 1E and a number of vintage SPUs over the years including GTE, GE and G. (Plus several mono ones that don't fall into current discussion, and doubtless a couple I've forgotten about!).
Ortofon are pretty serious about defending the SPU's heritage, and the various flavours of SPU reflect some pretty deep thinking about how to get the best from what is now a 60+ year old design which was itself an evolution of work done 80+ years ago. Long may that continue!
Beobloke is of course correct when he says the A95 is not related to the SPU family. For me it looks hideous, has the wrong compliance and I'd happily take a proper SPU any day over it! :ner:
although they are very sensitive they seem to benefit from a bit of current availability up em to keep them fluid.
Sure, but it's a fallacy that valve amps, if properly designed, are in any way lacking in that department - certainly in the real world of reproducing music, outside of paper specs;)
Honestly mate, a nice 10-15W single-ended valve amp would get those [98db efficient?] Teles signing, no worries, and would also be an ideal match for your tastes in music!:exactly:
Marco.
The A90 linked to originally has nothing to do with the SPU series models or their construction.
And is all the better for it, IMHO.... :D :piano:
Ha - as I told t'other A90 fanboy, each to his or her own. I believe, however, you're a fan of a DL-103, fitted onto an Empire turntable with matching arm [and rightly so], therefore consider how divorced that sound is, musically, from what's produced by an A90! And you'll get where I'm coming from.
Marco.
I have had Petrat's SPU 95th Anniversary in my setup a couple of times now. It's a truly stunning cartridge and there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that it's a proper SPU. As opposed to the Replicant 100 (essential a Fritz Geiger S) used in the SPU Royal and Royal N (with their gold coils) the SPU 95 uses an elliptical much like any Ortofon elliptical throughout the ages, except that instead of alloy or wood headshell it uses a titanium headshell which is uber-rigid - for that reason it extracts more detail than a standard SPU, without the stylus profile changing the original SPU character by very much.
I have a vintage (60s) SPU GE (formerly coming back to me shortly after having had a new cantilever + FG elliptical tip (I'm assuming much the same as on the SPU 95) ... it will be used in a wooden headshell from the chap selling them in Germany - that should be entertaining. The old vintage SPUs certainly have a vintage charm, in part I'm sure from the Alnico magnets with the GT versions also benefiting from the internal SUTs which though limited in bandwidth and so on by their tiny size do nevertheless make a lovely match and benefit from the very short signal path.
However ... I fundamentally disagree that anything made after the magnets changed is not a proper SPU or indeed is necessarily lacking in any way compared to the old ones. The modern ones have their own charms and do many things the vintage ones don't do. I'm speaking as owner/former owner of SPU Silver Meister, SPU Gold, SPU Spirit, SPU Royal N, SPU #1S and 1E and a number of vintage SPUs over the years including GTE, GE and G. (Plus several mono ones that don't fall into current discussion, and doubtless a couple I've forgotten about!).
Ortofon are pretty serious about defending the SPU's heritage, and the various flavours of SPU reflect some pretty deep thinking about how to get the best from what is now a 60+ year old design which was itself an evolution of work done 80+ years ago. Long may that continue!
Beobloke is of course correct when he says the A95 is not related to the SPU family. For me it looks hideous, has the wrong compliance and I'd happily take a proper SPU any day over it! :ner:
We're largely in agreement Tom, especially with your last sentence!:eyebrows:
I just prefer the, to keep it simple, although there's more to it than that, 'rich tone' of the best vintage SPUs, which crucially (for me) marries beautifully with the rather 'cool'/matter-of-fact nature of a Technics SL-1200/1210. Therefore, it's important to view my comments in that context [one of Yin/Yang], thus the creation of musical synergy.
Would I use a vintage SPU on a warmer/less 'clinical' sounding turntable? No, not a chance, as you'd end up over-egging the pudding. It's coincidentally why I wouldn't use an A90, or indeed most modern Ortofons, on a Techy, as you'd over-egg the pudding the opposite way! However, some folks clearly enjoy that rather shiny, 'up front' type of sound, so at the end of the day it's all about what floats your boat:cool:
Btw, good point about the SPU Royal. That's probably why I didn't get on with the GM MKII, when I had it, and why I subsequently fell in love with the minty 1958-vintage SPU G/T I sold it for, as it put 'meat' back on music's bones, which the Royal GM MKII had stripped away. I still think that the 'Alnico factor' though, is significant in delivering the type of sound I've mentioned.
It's also why current production DL-103s don't sound the same as the earlier ones.
Marco.
RobbieGong
14-03-2019, 22:25
Have had a good number of the upper end 'modern era' Ortofons and never found them 'shiny' in my set up, 2M Black, Quintet Black, Cadenza Black.
The Cadenza particulary I've found very even and neutral, I guess supporting kit plays its part as well.
One exception may have been the 2M Blue I had some years ago, but the supporting kit I had at the time was far less properly sorted than what I have now. (Fairly unmodded techie, equalizer, bass, treble and loudness always engaged back then
:lol: you get the picture )
I think this 'A90 fan boy' ;) is known as an Ortofon fan boy accurately speaking, I've never heard an A90 but have really enjoyed the good number of Ortofons I've had.
As such I believe I'd appreciate and get on with probably all the high end Ortofon's if set up properly and given time in my system - Windfelds, Expression, A90, A95, Anna, Century and I reckon I'd love some of those SPU's too.
Thoroughly enjoyed reading this on the SPU - https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/cartridges-ranges/spu The history and insight, excellent and informative. :)
Beobloke
15-03-2019, 00:07
Ha - as I told t'other A90 fanboy, each to his or her own. I believe, however, you're a fan of a DL-103, fitted onto an Empire turntable with matching arm [and rightly so], therefore consider how divorced that sound is, musically, from what's produced by an A90! And you'll get where I'm coming from.
Marco.
Nope, I love the DL-103 in a Yamaha GT-2000. I’d still take the A90 in a (shock, horror) SME V though! ;)
I was mislead by Ortofon's confusing nomenclature of their models. The Anniversary A90 and A95 are different beasts to the SPU Anniversary 90, SPU Anniversary 95 and SPU Anniversary 100 (Century), according to Ortofon's website as cited by Robert.
Excellent reply Tom BTW. You probably have had more experience of SPUs, both vintage and modern, than any other Member here.
RobbieGong
15-03-2019, 08:25
Tom, whilst likely still SPU in character overall, there are quite a number of them.
How do the ones you've tried differ ?
Do you have a personal fave and if so why :)
Nope, I love the DL-103 in a Yamaha GT-2000. I’d still take the A90 in a (shock, horror) SME V though! ;)
Yes, but you also raved about a 103, some years ago in an issue of HFW, when fitted to the high-mass stock arm of an Empire T/T, or have you forgotten?;)
Compare *that sound* you heard, particularly the bass end of things, with the intrinsic sonic presentation of an A90, and you should get what I like to hear from a cartridge, and indeed vinyl replay.
Marco.
Have had a good number of the upper end 'modern era' Ortofons and never found them 'shiny' in my set up, 2M Black, Quintet Black, Cadenza Black.
Ok then, Ortofon fanboy:D.... Sure Rob, but it's all relative. Fit a vintage SPU (or a modern one, whose sound has remained as faithful as possible to that of the originals) in your set-up, and *in comparison*, you might get what I mean by "shiny";)
Marco.
Beobloke
15-03-2019, 22:10
Yes, but you also raved about a 103, some years ago in an issue of HFW, when fitted to the high-mass stock arm of an Empire T/T, or have you forgotten?;)
Compare *that sound* you heard, particularly the bass end of things, with the intrinsic sonic presentation of an A90, and you should get what I like to hear from a cartridge, and indeed vinyl replay.
Marco.
No I haven’t forgotten the Empire and as I said, the 103 sounded even better in the stock arm on a Yamaha GT-2000
It’s just this still, for me, falls a little short of the presentation of one of Ortofon’s flagship modern cartridges like the A90. I personally think cartridges are one of the areas in hi-fi where modern really is better, hence why the cartridges I have are mostly modern designs.
Fair enough, then that's something we'll have to fundamentally disagree on. Although, if it's vintage, it has to be GOOD vintage. It's not just good 'cos it's old, and vice versa!:)
Marco.
montesquieu
15-03-2019, 22:26
No I haven’t forgotten the Empire and as I said, the 103 sounded even better in the stock arm on a Yamaha GT-2000
It’s just this still, for me, falls a little short of the presentation of one of Ortofon’s flagship modern cartridges like the A90. I personally think cartridges are one of the areas in hi-fi where modern really is better, hence why the cartridges I have are mostly modern designs.
Even for someone like myself that likes that full bodied, SPU-inspired, low compliance type of cartridge, for all their charms I have to admit that unless you are deliberately trying to evoke the atmosphere of a bygone era, the original SPUs can be bettered, either by newer rivals who have taken its 1950s principles and moved them forward (Miyajima is a classic case but also the AN Io fits into this category), or indeed by developments from Ortofon themselves as seen in the SPU 95th anniversary and SPU Century, and arguably somewhat earlier with the Royal and Royal N, Silver Meister and Spirit.
You need a heavy arm to play them though and while I enjoy other non-SPU Ortofons not least the Kontrapunkt range (I've owned Jubilee and Cadenza and rate both with the right SUT) they can come across slightly bloodless/a bit 'hifi' in a direct comparison. I haven't heard the A90 or A95, perhaps they chart a middle way but I'd be prepared to bet on them going in the opposite direction.
RobbieGong
16-03-2019, 16:05
Tom, whilst likely still SPU in character overall, there are quite a number of them.
How do the ones you've tried differ ?
Do you have a personal fave and if so why :)
Any chance of your thoughts Tom ? If not, no probs it's not important
montesquieu
16-03-2019, 16:29
Any chance of your thoughts Tom ? If not, no probs it's not important
Apologies, forgot to answer this one. My favorite (which I've owned three times now) is probably the Royal N (non-SPU headshell version of the SPU Royal). Like all SPUs it needs the right (very heavy) arm - heavy enough to keep things under control and keep the music flowing. Most medium mass arms won't cut it. The Replicant 100 (Geiger S) stylus and slightly unusual impedance - 6 ohm, compared to 2-3 ohm for a lot of classic SPUs, no doubt as a result of the gold coils - give it a bit of a different flavour and there's no doubt it's harder to set up than any other SPU I'm aware of and also a bit different to the norm in terms of head amp or SUT settings as well. You can't just slap it in. But I love its combination of lushness and detail. Being free of the usual Ortofon headshell you also have the option of different mounting methods and this can make a difference too.
I'm also a fan of the ellipticals, be they vintage GE or some of the modern ones. The ultimate example I've heard of this is Petrat's titanium SPU 95. For me this is the classic SPU sound.
Having said that the sphericals can be fun too, even the very cheap SPU #1S is very bold, bouncy and 'right' sounding (if less detailed than the ellipticals) I'm looking forward to hearing the SPU Wood which is a rather special spherical in an A (rather than G) type headshell, with an urushi lacquer finish.
RobbieGong
16-03-2019, 16:54
Apologies, forgot to answer this one. My favorite (which I've owned three times now) is probably the Royal N (non-SPU headshell version of the SPU Royal). Like all SPUs it needs the right (very heavy) arm - heavy enough to keep things under control and keep the music flowing. Most medium mass arms won't cut it. The Replicant 100 (Geiger S) stylus and slightly unusual impedance - 6 ohm, compared to 2-3 ohm for a lot of classic SPUs, no doubt as a result of the gold coils - give it a bit of a different flavour and there's no doubt it's harder to set up than any other SPU I'm aware of and also a bit different to the norm in terms of head amp or SUT settings as well. You can't just slap it in. But I love its combination of lushness and detail. Being free of the usual Ortofon headshell you also have the option of different mounting methods and this can make a difference too.
I'm also a fan of the ellipticals, be they vintage GE or some of the modern ones. The ultimate example I've heard of this is Petrat's titanium SPU 95. For me this is the classic SPU sound.
Having said that the sphericals can be fun too, even the very cheap SPU #1S is very bold, bouncy and 'right' sounding (if less detailed than the ellipticals) I'm looking forward to hearing the SPU Wood which is a rather special spherical in an A (rather than G) type headshell, with an urushi lacquer finish.
Thanks Tom, much appreciated, especially with my limited knowledge of SPU's :thumbsup:
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