View Full Version : Valve amplifiers
I'm a complete novice when it comes to hi-fi equipment and have been reading just lately about valve amplifiers.
Never having listened to music played through one of these I wonder why they are considered superior to the usual off-the-shelf stuff.
Also, does anyone have experience with Icon or WD valve amps which seem to be more affordable options?
Then that's the first thing you really must do i.e. listen to music through valve amplification or even digital sources with valves involved...
Even though not all valve equipment sounds the same, I feel that there is one quality that virtually all valve amps possess i.e. a "natural tactile presence" to the sound...
I know that that's not much to go by, which is why you'd do yourself a favour by actually listening to a well-setup valve-based system ;)
The WD amps are really good not heard the Icon amps so not able to comment
The Grand Wazoo
06-05-2010, 20:31
Hi Chris.
I'm sure that there will be plenty of direct replies to this but I looked out some similar questions that have been posed here before. You might find it interesting to read these too.
In no particular order:
So, tell me about those valve amps..
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4161
Tell me about valve equipment
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2787
Valve sound versus solid state...
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1877
...........enjoy!
Spectral Morn
07-05-2010, 07:10
Then that's the first thing you really must do i.e. listen to music through valve amplification or even digital sources with valves involved...
Even though not all valve equipment sounds the same, I feel that there is one quality that virtually all valve amps possess i.e. a "natural tactile presence" to the sound...
I know that that's not much to go by, which is why you'd do yourself a favour by actually listening to a well-setup valve-based system ;)
I agree totally with that...even poor valve amplifiers manage to do this. However get a good one and one suitable for your speakers and you get the rest as well. I have yet(note I say yet. It may happen someday, just for me not yet) to hear a solid state design that manages to reproduce music in such away as to sound natural and real.
Regards D S D L
quadsugdenman
07-05-2010, 07:49
I will gladly vouch for Icon Audio valve equipment although I have no experience of the WD kit but hear it is also excellent. The IA equipment does have that 'tactile' feel and a wonderful smoothness in spades. They have some exciting new developments in the pipeline.
Speak to David Shaw or Adrian at Icon and go and listen, it is the only way you will find out for yourself what is talked about on this and other forums. I would also not rule out any of Glen Crofts hybrid designs, again go and listen. You will find the experience of finding out for yourself most enjoyable and learn a lot in the process.
Garry:)
hifi_dave
07-05-2010, 09:41
There are good and bad and some dire valve amps, they are not a panacea for all Hi-Fi ills. There are also some SS amps which sound great but they are also few and far between.
The important thing is for you to listen to a selection using your chosen front-end and speakers.
magiccarpetride
07-05-2010, 19:11
I'm a complete novice when it comes to hi-fi equipment and have been reading just lately about valve amplifiers.
Never having listened to music played through one of these I wonder why they are considered superior to the usual off-the-shelf stuff.
Also, does anyone have experience with Icon or WD valve amps which seem to be more affordable options?
After carefully auditioning valve amplification (or, vacuum tubes, as we call them here in the New World, courtesy of vikings/Cristopher Columbo), I can report several impressive things about them:
1. Resolution: much better than even high end SS amps. The level of detail you hear through the valve amp is beyond the reach of all but the most sophisticated SS amps.
2. Sound texture: stunningly present, something I've never heard out of any non-valve amplifiers.
3. Control: even during the messiest, busiest passages, while all the horns are blaring and a hundred person choir is soaring, tube amps maintain full composure. SS amps tend to go into a bit of 'hyperventilation' during tricky passages. What I've experienced with SS amps during high fever pitch dynamic passages is a lot of gesticulation, hand waving, acrobatics and attempts to jump through the hoops. Meanwhile, valve amps remain calm, composed, and just keep working. It's amazing what a difference this can make to your listening pleasure.
4. Bass: melted chocolate warm and sweet. This may or may not be to everyone's liking. I sometimes find it a bit too much.
Many thanks to all, what a wonderful selection of commments, there's enough here to keep me entertained for weeks!
Will definitely find myself somewhere to have a good listen although I tiptoe into the mysterious world of valves with some trepidation.
Extra thanks to Ian for your patience with a newbie, I shall certainly take your advice.
You're welcome! :)
It's always a pleasure to induct a valve "initiate" into the fold :D Please do come back and share with us your adventures in exploring the world of valve amplification ;)
Regards,
Malek
If solid-state is so awful, then almost all the sources (including LP's) would be unlistenable because record companies and mastering engineers all but abandoned valves decades ago. In addition, any "texture" would have been removed at the first recording session!!!
Big US amps are hardly a reference point I'm afraid, certainly the popular ones which found their way to the UK. Many a Krell, ARC and even later Levinson has been deeply shamed by the likes of Naim, Quad (if the load was easy) and AVI in my opinion, let alone Copland at its best.
Valve-like ss amps - Anyone tried the Audio Analogue stuff? The now old Bellini/Donizetti pre-power sounded lovely, although the output stage could pop very easily if abused..
If solid-state is so awful, then almost all the sources (including LP's) would be unlistenable because record companies and mastering engineers all but abandoned valves decades ago. In addition, any "texture" would have been removed at the first recording session!!!
Big US amps are hardly a reference point I'm afraid, certainly the popular ones which found their way to the UK. Many a Krell, ARC and even later Levinson has been deeply shamed by the likes of Naim, Quad (if the load was easy) and AVI in my opinion, let alone Copland at its best.
Valve-like ss amps - Anyone tried the Audio Analogue stuff? The now old Bellini/Donizetti pre-power sounded lovely, although the output stage could pop very easily if abused..
Once again another sensible, calm, reply to put the discussion back on balance.
Cheers Dave
Regards
PS How's 'you know what' coming along?
.
Valve-like ss amps - Anyone tried the Audio Analogue stuff? The now old Bellini/Donizetti pre-power sounded lovely, although the output stage could pop very easily if abused..
... i had those when they came out... very nice compared to much of the SS stuff... but nothing like a good valve amp
at the time it was a restored pye mozart saw them off easily... and my valve amps have got much better since then..
cheers
steve.
you just won't get till you spend some time with valves.
I have owned some very good solid state stuff and SS can be quite good,I'm told the new Luxman class A is a solid state masterpeice but valves sound ritch and pleasent.
soultrader
04-06-2012, 11:55
I remember a guy on these forums selling his own tube amps around £300. Anyone know who it was?
If solid-state is so awful, then almost all the sources (including LP's) would be unlistenable because record companies and mastering engineers all but abandoned valves decades ago. In addition, any "texture" would have been removed at the first recording session!!!
Big US amps are hardly a reference point I'm afraid, certainly the popular ones which found their way to the UK. Many a Krell, ARC and even later Levinson has been deeply shamed by the likes of Naim, Quad (if the load was easy) and AVI in my opinion, let alone Copland at its best.
Valve-like ss amps - Anyone tried the Audio Analogue stuff? The now old Bellini/Donizetti pre-power sounded lovely, although the output stage could pop very easily if abused..
You should have a listen to the new Bellini - Donizetti combo. It builds upon the strengths of the previous model, added more power and grip, and the build quality is second to none at the price. Soundwise, they remind me a lot of my old Graaf pre/power combo. Lovely stuff indeed.
Hello,
Thanks for the comments on tube amplifiers, I am also currently looking into the subject because of the claimed musicality of tubes. I am currently beeing offered a amp from Icon Audio, a brand that is known here obviously, but not so much on the internet, and one from Eastern Electric.
Where is the difference between the tube amp price range of 500€ and 1500€? Is it worth the investment? Do the WPC matter at all if driving a speaker with 102db sensivity?
Those are the two options at the moment:
Icon Audio MB 90 MK II 2x monoblocks, 1500€
http://www.iconaudio.com/portfolio-item/mb-90-mk-ii/
Eastern Electric Minimax Integrated Amp, 500€
http://eeaudio.com/eeaudio_008c.htm
Or is it common sense to start with something low budget (200€) to get a sense of tube sound?
Thanks for your help
PS: I just had a set of PrimaLuna Prologue Seven monoblocks offered for 1500€ (used, 3 months old), so now there are three options
This a reasonably entertaining read on the subject.
http://www.lenardaudio.com/education/12_amps_8.html
What I would say is the good valve amps I've heard have tended to be rather expensive which to put in perspective is above three thousand pounds.
On the other hand, I've heard some stonking SS for around a third of that.
You has a listen and takes your pick according to your means.;)
Ali Tait
04-06-2012, 22:49
If your speakers are 102db, IMHO you need to be looking at low power SET amps, say a 45, 2a3 or 801a. Push Pull amps will have way too much power for speakers of that sensitivity, you will get very little useable volume range.
The Grand Wazoo
04-06-2012, 23:19
I remember a guy on these forums selling his own tube amps around £300. Anyone know who it was?
Could it have been Greenhome Dave & his EL34 integrated (http://www.usedhifishop.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1049) that you were thinking of?
If your speakers are 102db, IMHO you need to be looking at low power SET amps, say a 45, 2a3 or 801a. Push Pull amps will have way too much power for speakers of that sensitivity, you will get very little useable volume range.
Oh I think you have a point... I am currently using Class D Amps with low output (max. 15W) and can only use the volume poti from 7 o'clock to 10 o'clock, at very low levels left and right channels are not equally loud (I guess the poti is too unprecise)
So what I should be looking for are amps that are "single ended", and those mostly use tubes likes a '45', 801, 2A3, and I also saw low output amps that use:
300B
http://www.triode.co.jp/english/02.html
6BM8
http://eeaudio.com/eeaudio_008c.htm
I see a lot of DIY and semi-commercial products on the market. How do they differentiate from the 'commercial' products regarding sound quality and durability?
Ali Tait
07-06-2012, 20:37
I didn't mention 300b as you get about 7 to 9 watts which still might be too much!
The valves I mentioned will give 1 to 2 watts/ch, which might not sound a lot, but should be fine with your speeks.
If it's a very good SE amp you want, I'd speak to Nick (Lurcher) about it. What you spend with him will far outstrip the same spent on a commercial product IMHO.
Dont forget Ali, as per the recent AT discussions, some head room is needed, its better to operate well within the power rating rather than driving the amp too hard as distortion rises and compression can set in, so 8 to 9W may give you that bit of headroom...
Ali Tait
07-06-2012, 21:35
Aye, but we are talking 102db efficient speakers Neal, don't need a lot of power with those!
Agreed but thats not my point ;) Operate the amp at a low power level where distortion is low and theres no risk of compression, operate a flea powered one at 50 or 75% of its rated power output and you increase both.
One advantage would be that I would not be so limited in further choice of speakers. With a really low powered amp I will be forced to look for 100db+ speakers again.
And speaking of existent speakers: My Klipsch RB-25 are rated at 94db/Wm, how would a 2A3 amp handle them?
Ali Tait
07-06-2012, 21:46
My OB's are around that figure, and I find 15w/ch more than enough.
Ali Tait
07-06-2012, 21:48
Agreed but thats not my point ;) Operate the amp at a low power level where distortion is low and theres no risk of compression, operate a flea powered one at 50 or 75% of its rated power output and you increase both.
Not disagreeing either, headroom is a good thing, how much power do you need with 102db speeks to have plenty headroon?
I agree with Neal.
Whilst I always enjoy listening to good examples of the low-power SE valve amp/high-efficiency speakers route, for the undoubted sonic qualities such systems have, I can also readily hear their deficiences, as at the end of the day everything in audio is a trade-off, and so you have to choose your compromises.
Although not 'perfect' either, I prefer the results gained by using huge and pretty efficient (95db) Tannoys, driven by 50W of pure Class A P/P, as the weight, scale, sheer authority, and near unlimited headroom, which is delivered with appropriate music, is crucial to achieving realism, and in turn, my enjoyment of music.
Next year I intend to go active, by adding another Copper amp to my system, which will not only remove the sonic deficienies of the passive crossovers in my Tannoys, but double the (pure Class A) power that I have available, which should give utterly stunning results! :eyebrows: :hairmetal:
Just as it is, sonically, that you can never have transformers or PSUs too big in a power amp, so it is that you can never have have too many QUALITY watts! ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 06:35
Aye mate, but there is a rather large difference between 95 and 102db.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 06:39
My OB's are around that figure, and I find 15w/ch more than enough.
Sorry, got this wrong. I use an active system with two stereo amps, so it's actually 30w. In my set up this gives more power than I'll ever need.
Oh, I know, and in terms of tonality, too... Such high-efficiency speakers have a very definite sonic signature, particularly in the bass. It's a matter of whether you can live with that effect, as well as the benefits such high-efficiency brings.
Personally, I couldn't. It's all a trade-off, dude! :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 06:57
Yes it's all about compromise. But going back to efficiency for a moment, with a 3db increase in efficiency of the speaker, you only need half the amp power to get the same volume ( I think!). In the comarison we have here, there is a 6db increase, so only a quarter of the power is required to have the same headroom available, and I think you have huge amounts of headroom available Marco, way more than most folk, hence my suggestion to the OP that a high quality low power SET would be a good match to his speakers.
Sure, I haven't read the whole thread. What speakers has he got? :)
Marco.
I am using Klipsch RF-7 on my primary setup (102dB), but I am also using Castle Howard S3 on a second setup, currently (Kingrex Class D blown) driven by a original Sonic Impact T-amp.
The original T-Amp has 15Wx2 I think, and the S3 only 89db, and still that is enough (10 o'clock on poti) for the setup's small room (12sqm). 2x15W easily drives small room levels on 89db speakers from what I currently see.
I plan to get better speakers in say three to five years, is it corrent to assume that speakers in the price range of 2000€-4000€ are also quite efficient ones (>94db)?
PS: The original T-Amp is rated as 2x10W @ 8 Ohms
The ugly thing about amplifiers on high efficiency speakers in my opinion is that the volume dial is working within such a small range. Aren't there dials that are non-linear, and adjust 20% of the total output power withing the first 50% of the dial?
Hi Marco,
Welcome to AoS, btw :)
Thing is, you're not the OP of this thread, Chris (Sarnies) is - which is why I was rather confused, as I indeed it appears Ali was! :scratch: ;)
Marco.
Maybe this will help.
Very roughly 2 x increase in power will give a 3dB increase in SPL at one metre away from your speakers.
In fact, the above is virtually useless in real world applications.:lol:
Firstly amplifiers clip, often long before they reach their maximum output.
Next, this type of calculation is usually based on the nominal impedance of your speakers.
The problem is no speakers I’ve come across are exactly the nominal impedance and further, their impedance changes with frequency. As the impedance drops, more power is required. This becomes particularly irksome at low frequencies where a 1dB per Hz frequency roll-off isn’t uncommon. Your speaker bumf may give your speakers response as say 50Hz to 20 kHz but unless a) it’s been measured, and b) a dB tolerance is also given, it doesn’t tell you the roll off.
It’s not uncommon to find even properly quoted figures to be wrong, particularly with regard to the +/- dB range.
A further complication is these types of figures tend to get quoted at the standard 1Watt at 1metre distance for 2.83 Volts across 8 ohms at a fixed listening point. Go listen at 4 metres away when the impedance has dropped to say 5 ohms and not be in the exact on axis position and it all changes.:D
Now you add in the thorny problem of head room. This headroom needs to be within the non clipping capability of the amp. Conventional wisdom has it that 20dB to 25dB will cover the most enthusiastic transients.
Some people like to listen at “live” concert levels; that’s around 120dB for say a loud rock concert. Between 80dB and 85dB listening isn’t uncommon. Now add 20dB headroom to this and factor in where your amp starts to clip. It doesn’t take long with average efficiency speakers to run into kilowatts of power once the above is taken into account!
If you want to get it right you need measure the impedance of your speakers, preferably a plot of the impedance versus frequency.
Then you need to find out when your amp clips.
As a rough guide this may help but bear in mind this calculator works with nominal values.
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
You could of course do what many do and buy yourself an underpowered valve amp (they tend to clip nicely) and get used to listening to a bit of distortion when you crank the volume up.:eyebrows:
Maybe this will help.
Very roughly 10 x increase in power will give a 3dB increase in SPL at one metre away from your speakers.
:
I thought it was a doubling in power to give 3db increase in loudness, not 10 times the power? :scratch:
Oooops, cheers Martin :doh:
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 12:23
..and conversely, a 3db increase in speaker efficiency halves the power needed to achieve the same SPL's. John is quite correct though in that the impedance curve of the speaker will play a big part in this.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 12:24
Hi Marco,
Welcome to AoS, btw :)
Thing is, you're not the OP of this thread, Chris (Sarnies) is - which is why I was rather confused, as I indeed it appears Ali was! :scratch: ;)
Marco.
All this stemmed from post #13 in the thread mate.
..and conversely, a 3db increase in speaker efficiency halves the power needed to achieve the same SPL's. John is quite correct though in that the impedance curve of the speaker will play a big part in this.
Indeed and attempting to match amp and speakers just using power output and sensitivity figures is often a reciepe for disaster i.e buying the wrong amp. Been there, done that. :rolleyes:
However most of these super-sensitive +100db speakers tend to be single driver efforts so the impedence curve/change won't be too drastic.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 12:34
These are the speakers in question-
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6989/klipschrf71.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/klipschrf71.jpg/)
Well chaps, if you’re going to start talking about power amp sonic signatures I’m going to have to do a bit of this :brickwall:
So far, once the measurable stuff has been sorted, I haven’t been able to tell the difference between one power amp and another. :confused:
This doesn’t mean that none exists and it doesn’t mean others can’t hear any.:)
What it may mean is for those of us with average hearing wishing to listen to music rather than analyse sonic characteristics of equipment, the measurable stuff is what is important.:D
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 12:44
More info here-
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412510/klipsch-rf7-ii-measurements
Seems they are not as sensitive as advertised.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 12:45
Well chaps, if you’re going to start talking about power amp sonic signatures I’m going to have to do a bit of this :brickwall:
So far, once the measurable stuff has been sorted, I haven’t been able to tell the difference between one power amp and another. :confused:
This doesn’t mean that none exists and it doesn’t mean others can’t hear any.:)
What it may mean is for those of us with average hearing wishing to listen to music rather than analyses sonic characteristics of equipment, the measurable stuff is what is important.:D
I'd guess that how the amp deals with the impedance curve of the speaker it's connected to plays a big part in the resultant sound. IMHO.
I'd guess that how the amp deals with the impedance curve of the speaker it's connected to plays a big part in the resultant sound. IMHO.
Yes - and people mistake this for the 'sound' of the amplifier.
Just to put this in perspective a little.
I know someone who has a set of Harbeth Super HL5 speakers (86dB/1W/1m) and uses my old Exposure xx (55 Watts per channel) to power them. He listens in a reasonable sized room at approx 5.5 metres away from the baffle line.
When he bought the speakers a few of us suggested that it was time to move the Exposure on; basically it just didn’t have the grunt for loud (85dB to 95dB) listening with the HL5s.
Using the calculator above this gives around 92dB rounding the listening position to 15’.
I’m rather fond of the Hl5; nice tone and even response and I used to own the Exposure xx and I know it was starting to clip badly at around 51 Watts when I had it. I doubt it has got any better.
The HL5 when measured did approximately 84dB/1W/1m.
Putting in the new values gives 90dB; hardly earth shattering volume.
But, ideally we need another 20dB headroom before clipping and loud to me at least is 100dB +.
Erm, that’s about 450 Watts to produce around 100dB without clipping :eek:
For my speakers 93dB should I want to listen at concert level and not have the amp clip I need to be looking at 350 Watts, or more :eek::doh:
Going by the above and assuming the math is correct it seems more than likely that some of us at least are listening to a system in clipping mode and apparently don’t even notice. It does make me wonder. :scratch:
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 17:10
Well I'd say that the vast majority of us do not listen at anything like concert levels, if we did we'd be getting a swift visit from the boys in blue. I mean c'mon, how many of us seriously listen to music in our living rooms at 120db?
Sure Ali, concert level (120dB) is pretty extreme. However, 90db to 100dB isn't that loud in the right room when there is minimal distortion.
It might be interesting to measure just at what SPl one does listen at.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 17:20
Indeed. I do actually have an SPL meter from work. Must try it on the system.
I have noted in the past I tend to listen at lower volumes than some fellow nutters. S' me sensitive ears innit!
Bear in mind the ‘average’ vacuum cleaner is rated at 80dB.
Also, for those with the systems capable of erm, well, the scale people tend to talk about got from big drivers and realistic listening levels and how our perception of loudness doesn’t quite match SPL and of course, one musn’t forget than many partners can bend an ear at 85dB no problem and after all what’s a stereo for if not to drown out the missus and kids……….
I’m just sayin. :eyebrows:
Something that has not been mentioned so far is the Damping Factor of amplifier and speaker. In fact it's hardly ever mentioned anywhere, considering it's importance, so could someone provide us with an explanation?
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 17:45
Ok, just dug the meter out and tested it with some Led Zep. I deliberately drove to levels louder than I'd use even at a party, and the highest I got was 102db (C weighted)
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 17:47
A normal decent listening level for me is 88-92db, having just checked.
Ah good man, got the right weighting as well. :)
More seriously, I'm looking at the 80dB to 90dB range and even at these relatively modest SPls I was trying to point out that a you may need rather more Watts than you might initially suppose when amp clipping and variations in loudspeaker impedance are properly considered.
If you want a system that is truly capable of trouser flapping bass and awesome "like live" reproduction you'll probably be needing a few more Watts than you might think.
I very rarely listen much above 80dB, mainly because the room self dismantles at much more. But, even at that kind of SPL, when clipping is taken into account and adequate headroom is allowed for enthusiastic transients, what initially seems an amp of adequate power output may fall to bits with just a teeny lil tweak of the volume control.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 18:05
Yes agreed, you need plenty of headroom for transients. One good thing about OB's to my ears is that they seem more immune to room effects than box speakers, so you can play to higher SPL's before the room becomes a problem.
my speakers are around 102 dbs , 2 watts (around half volume on the px25 amp) plays around 105 db peaks, with the average sound levels, dependant on the amount of compression in the recording...usually around 85-95 dbs ,
there very little in the way of distortion at those levels, i find 2-3 watts enough for the largest rooms, 96 db speakers would need around 8 watts to do the same.
but then you are getting out of the league of the the very best amplifiers.
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 18:13
Yes, that's what prompted me to say that say 2 to 4 watts should be plenty for 102db speakers, having heard yours at Owston Steve.
I thought so Ali..
is funny how trouser flapping bass and watts seem to go together for many, its not my experence. even with open baffles
Ali Tait
08-06-2012, 18:42
Aye, it's a different kind of bass methinks. If you like it and get used to it, nothing else will do.
Something that has not been mentioned so far is the Damping Factor of amplifier and speaker. In fact it's hardly ever mentioned anywhere, considering it's importance, so could someone provide us with an explanation?
Because it's not as important as some think, I guess. I wish I could provide the quotes, but a few big names in hi-fi design and engineering have commented on how low damping factor is in their priorities.
On topic: using my smartphone spl app, and not taking any weighting into account, I read peaks of 39dB and average of 29dB over a minute or so listening to soft jazz, mono, with a 40 wpc PP valve amp driving Tannoy Cheviots (about 92db sensitivity, I think). I often wish I could put the spurs to it, but certainly not at this time of night in a flat, and with two small kids sleeping down the hall. Measurement at the listening position.
Something that has not been mentioned so far is the Damping Factor of amplifier and speaker. In fact it's hardly ever mentioned anywhere, considering it's importance, so could someone provide us with an explanation?
I do my best be it in simple terms
damping factor is a calculation between the impedance of the output stage of the amplifier and the speaker impedance.
so an amplifier with a low output impedance will give a better damping factor with higher impedance speaker.
that is why in the 50's 16 ohm speakers where the norm when quality was important with valve amps of the time,
back in the 30's many speakers where wound with very high impedance coils that dramaticly increased the damping factor and removed the need of output transformers, at the expense of fragility, as very few lasted long at all...but I have read that the sound quality could be very good.
todays SS amps can have a much lower output impedance, which can be considered important to control generally less powerfull drivers used in the modern speaker
there is also speaker self damping.. generally a speaker with a less powerful motor has less self damping, it relys on a stronger energy field from the amplifier to control the cone, and the speaker with the higher powered motor needs less help to control the cone.. in some cases much less
it is really nowhere as simple as that.. but it may help your understanding
Wow, thank you all, that was a whole lot to learn!
But getting back to real life decisions:
Does it harm to use higher power tube amps with high sensivity speakers? What are the negative effects of using a 2x12W or 2x40W tube amp instead of a 2x3W? Are the high power layouts prone to sound quality deficiencies?
I do my best be it in simple terms
damping factor is a calculation between the impedance of the output stage of the amplifier and the speaker impedance.
so an amplifier with a low output impedance will give a better damping factor with higher impedance speaker.
that is why in the 50's 16 ohm speakers where the norm when quality was important with valve amps of the time,
back in the 30's many speakers where wound with very high impedance coils that dramaticly increased the damping factor and removed the need of output transformers, at the expense of fragility, as very few lasted long at all...but I have read that the sound quality could be very good.
todays SS amps can have a much lower output impedance, which can be considered important to control generally less powerfull drivers used in the modern speaker
there is also speaker self damping.. generally a speaker with a less powerful motor has less self damping, it relys on a stronger energy field from the amplifier to control the cone, and the speaker with the higher powered motor needs less help to control the cone.. in some cases much less
it is really nowhere as simple as that.. but it may help your understanding
Thanks for your reply Steve, time for a bit of research!
Wow, thank you all, that was a whole lot to learn!
But getting back to real life decisions:
Does it harm to use higher power tube amps with high sensivity speakers? What are the negative effects of using a 2x12W or 2x40W tube amp instead of a 2x3W? Are the high power layouts prone to sound quality deficiencies?
i've borrowed this quote
“To raise the performance of a single triode amplifier above the crowd it is necessary to optimize the design and parts quality used in its realisation. It is not enough simply to use triodes.” Kondo
the best low power amplifiers are expensive and can rarely be bought from the hifi shop...
the hifi shop/ internet will point you in the direction of the masses.. larger output amplifiers..
as most people do not understand what real 100+ db speakers can do matched with a high quality amplifier.. and if you knew, you would not be asking us daft questions.. best of luck...
steve
Ali Tait
10-06-2012, 18:59
Wow, thank you all, that was a whole lot to learn!
But getting back to real life decisions:
Does it harm to use higher power tube amps with high sensivity speakers? What are the negative effects of using a 2x12W or 2x40W tube amp instead of a 2x3W? Are the high power layouts prone to sound quality deficiencies?
No harm but possibly may not be not ideal IMHO. For instance, I used to drive my statics with an Audioromy 813 SE which was about 35 w/ch if memory serves. Sounded very good on the statics, but less so on other cone speakers for some reason.
I don't think higher power automatically means inferior sound, it's all about the quality of the components and the transformers. Good ones are expensive.
Steve is right in saying that some of the very old triodes can sound very special, but unless you are in his fortunate position of having a large collection of such things, it could get extemely expensive making such an amp nowadays as NOS '20's and '30's triodes are seriously pricey items these days.
i've borrowed this quote
the best low power amplifiers are expensive and can rarely be bought from the hifi shop...
the hifi shop/ internet will point you in the direction of the masses.. larger output amplifiers..
as most people do not understand what real 100+ db speakers can do matched with a high quality amplifier.. and if you knew, you would not be asking us daft questions.. best of luck...
steve
That's right: you can only tell the difference if you
a) own "real" 100db+ speakers -> money
b) you own high quality tube amp -> really a lot of money
c) have already had experience with a lot of other expensive gear from the low db, high wattage camp -> even more money
So I guess it's save to say that most people simply cannot understand because of limited budget
No harm but possibly may not be not ideal IMHO. For instance, I used to drive my statics with an Audioromy 813 SE which was about 35 w/ch if memory serves. Sounded very good on the statics, but less so on other cone speakers for some reason.
I don't think higher power automatically means inferior sound, it's all about the quality of the components and the transformers. Good ones are expensive.
For collecting experience higher power tube amps give the chance to try them with different speaker sets. For example I own three sets of speakers, I can test one amp with all three sets, maybe one combination is just the perfect fit. If I go at the task with a 2x3W amp I cannot really use my 90db speakers with them, and future speakers will have to forfill a minimum of x db at the least.
I have just acquired a used Melody SP3 with upgraded tubes for 435€ incl. shipment, and am keeping an eye open for a used 2A3 or 2A3/300B amp:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/150829050914?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1664wt_1142
So I guess it's save to say that most people simply cannot understand because of limited budget
sort of... the thing is there are good, and not quite as good, in everything, there are not to many places where one can hear qualitiy HE &quality SE triodes
so for many its taking a chance, as a DIYer, it different you start off with cheaper and build up, my first valve amp was el84 based, the 4 watts convinced me valves was better, but not in every way,
it took some time and experimenting to acheve the sound i now get, and i've spent alot of money on the way. the funny thing is when others listen to my kit some really like the sound, but not every one gets it,
buying any amp i would lean towards one that uses older valves that can be bought at reasonable prices, the 2a3/45 is an example,
I have a pair of 1940's 300a ..there is a marked difference in sound quality between them and all of the new production, but the cost and rarity are prohibative for most.
where as say globe px25 and px4 (they sound close to 300a/b) are more affordable and available, the amplifiers are not, and so mainly limited to diyers...
Just noticed that this thread has re-surfaced with lots of techno speak which, unfortunately, goes way over my head!!
Anyway, thought I'd update my original post from 2010.
I decided to go for a low cost introduction to valves and bought an ST25 valve integrated from Icon Audio coupled with a pair of their MFV6 standmount speakers (MFV = made-for-valves) having spent a fab day in David Shaw's wonderful demo room. During the intervening period I've got through a number of front ends both analogue and digital. I've also replaced the MFV6's with a lovely pair of Celestion DL10 Series 2 speakers aquired from BlackAdder, tried some Castle Chester floorstanders but returned to the DL10's.
I love where I'm at right now. I can't describe sound quality in audiophilic terms, suffice to say this combo is open and airy, sweet and relaxing, there's a supernatural quality which is difficult to define. I have room issues which spoil the bass frequencies but I'm trying to resolve these.
Whenever I'm tempted to do a little box-swapping I simply play music and chill!
A huge thanks to everyone who helped me on my way.
For collecting experience higher power tube amps give the chance to try them with different speaker sets. For example I own three sets of speakers, I can test one amp with all three sets, maybe one combination is just the perfect fit. If I go at the task with a 2x3W amp I cannot really use my 90db speakers with them, and future speakers will have to forfill a minimum of x db at the least.
You might be pleasantly surprised how well a 35w valve amp will drive 90dB speakers, depends on the sort of load they present.
Indeed, Nick. My 30W (before it was modded to 50W) Class A P/P Copper amp drove my 90db Spendor SP100s for long enough, no problem, before I got into big Tannoys!
Here's a pic of me old Spends:
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7150/aosm06.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/641/aosm06.jpg/)
No problem getting 'stupid' levels out of them with this chap:
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/83/oldcopperamp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/oldcopperamp.jpg/)
Unfortunately, there's a lot of bullshite written about what speakers valve amps can and can't drive!
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
17-06-2012, 21:04
Marco, your room is smaller than mine I reckon (looking at those 12" bass drivers) :eyebrows:
Good for deep bass then, as room modes are out of the window :D
One day they will understand, they being non sheeple :cool:
Hi Mark,
The room ain't big, but she's perfectly formed... ;)
I totally agree with where you're coming from, regarding deep bass. The Spends could kick it out, bigtime, and I loved using them for years, but the Lockies took things into a whole new dimension!
Marco.
Hi Mark,
The room ain't big, but she's perfectly formed... ;)
I totally agree with where you're coming from, regarding deep bass. The Spends could kick it out, bigtime, and I loved using them for years, but the Lockies took things into a whole new dimension!
Marco.
I'll be converting our spare room in to a dedicated hifi room this next winter,
my issue is that it may be a little on the small side, at just under 15x10, my speakers are around the size of yours marco, so i'm hopeing it works ok, the room needs alot of work before i move in so unable to test beforehand, but i know your room worked very well.
so fingers crossed...
nicks 35 watt SE amp drove a pair of massive pair of low efficiency speakers at our last diy meet, filling a large room (around 60'x90')with nightclub levels ...
unfortunatey for nicks very, very clean and detailed sounding amp.. those big low effieciency speakers at nightclub levels was not so clean sounding at all, but still his 35 watts was so much better than the big ss amp used beforehand
cheers...
Just wanted to come back to report that I had an intermezzo with a PP Melody SP3 MkII (which was good, but did not make me happy), and now own a Alex Ederer 300B SE with Sophia Electric 300B/n valves, and that is just much more the real thing music wise: It just sounds right.
http://nachtrab.de/files/AE300B.JPG
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