I’m done with moving coil cartridge hassle

[worrasf]

Having been through the range of cartridges various from my first Goldring G800 up to my current Denon DL-S1 and a load of others in between from today I’m “junking”the lot and sticking with my “new” Decca Super Gold.

Don’t get me wrong I have been (and still am) delighted with the DL-S1 and my Goldbug Brier and my Paradox Pulse DL-103R but TBH moving coils are just too much hassle. I’ve spent days and dollars getting various SUT’s and Headamps to match /partner these and other MC’s endlessly tweaking loading and gain to get the right setup and never really knowing if that sweet spot is the best it can be.

I had a Decca Blue many years ago and loved it but could never solve a residual hum issue.

I’ve toyed with the idea of an Ortofon 2M black but the Ortofons I’ve had in the past disappointed (not very scientific I know) so as per a previous post I’d decided to get another Decca. This time a Super Gold checked and fettled by John Wright.

As seen in the photo it’s in my Yamamoto HS-4 sans additional weight as I wanted to see how it sounded with the standard plastic mount. Sitting so low it’s tricky to see the stylus to setup the null points but not impossible. Having setup to Baerwald with 1.8g VTF tracking is exemplary on the HFN test disc.

There is no hum and surface noise is no worse than my DL-103 although a bit more noticeable than the DL-S1.

The main thing is it sounds sublime. It’s like the best of the S1 and 103R but with more detail (yes, I’m hearing low level background instruments that even the S1 didn’t reveal). Even without the additional headshell weight bass is full and well defined and the midrange is wonderfully clear. The piano on Einaudi’s I Giorni is as close to live as I’ve ever heard.

And the great thing is no tweaking with gain and loading or swapping SUT’s and headamps.

While I’m not ready to sell my MC’s and supporting infrastructure just yet they are currently consigned to the storage shelf.
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[Bigman80]

Whatever makes you happy!

That's the only right move.

[chris@panteg]

I think you have to try a Decca, not an easy cartridge to get right, I've heard them sounding hard and brittle on a Linn/ittok.
but fantastic on a source/odyssey.
Hope you enjoy it.

[RobbieGong]

Whatever makes you happy!

That's the only right move.

Can only agree.

Different approaches get the result people want.

Glad you're not thinking of throwing in th mc's you've got.

My approach has always been to keep things very simple and thats always worked for me with all the carts I've had, Ortofons 2M Black mm and mc's - Quintet Black, Cadenza Black and Cadenza Black Fritz Gyger S retip upgrade.

All have sung with attention to se-tup being the key factor over anything else.

[Bigman80]

"Don’t get me wrong I have been (and still am) delighted with the DL-S1 and my Goldbug Brier and my Paradox Pulse DL-103R but TBH moving coils are just too much hassle. I’ve spent days and dollars getting various SUT’s and Headamps to match /partner these and other MC’s endlessly tweaking loading and gain to get the right setup and never really knowing if that sweet spot is the best it can be."

Just wanted to touch a bit on this part:

I've spent a shed load of time, cash and effort trying to capture the illusive match between a MC cart and a SUT or HA.

I just couldn't do it. Not without spending around £1k on a SUT. I have heard good combinations like the Kontrapunkt B and the Ortofon 80se. They work very well.

For me, there's a better way and that's using a phonostage DESIGNED for the use of MC. Thats what I decided to chase. In the end, we designed our own phonostage and it's worked out really well. I know that's not possible for everyone but there are phonostages out there that may change your opinion on your carts. We used a Jfet to do the gain work. There are others who do this too and with great results.

Good luck with the Super Gold. I've had three Deccas here, a super gold, a good and a blue, but never really took to them as a permanent solution.

[Jimbo]

There are others on here who also run the Decca in very high end systems and get exceptional results out of it after it has been optimised for set up.

I will return to a Decca, indeed I still own a Blue but that will be for another day.

If you want to try something exciting and exceptional which has many of the characteristics of a Decca without all the faff of an MC then you should try a 2M Black. First as standard and then maybe consider the route I have taken and have a wonderful FGS stylus fitted. The result is stunning and you would not even consider going back to an MC once heard.:)

Using the Croft amps delivers a seriously great sound with this combination.

[Barry]

Deccas are not perfect by any means, but they can still offer aspects of the musical performance that no other cartridge can match.

Everyone should listen to a Decca at some stage in their audio career (preferably a good sample and one that has been set up carefully), just to hear what the 'fuss' is about. If they are not for you than that is fair enough, at least you have tried the experience.

I always have a Decca set up on one of my decks to be offered that approach, whilst still enjoying MCs for their strengths. Having recently acquired an Ikeda cartridge: a moving coil design that has been influenced by Decca's 'direct scanning' philosophy in being a 'cantileverless' design, I'm enjoying the best of both worlds.

[oldius]

It is about the music after all. If the system is beginning to reduce your enjoyment of the music, it is time for a rethink.

[Bigman80]

Deccas are not perfect by any means, but they can still offer aspects of the musical performance that no other cartridge can match.

Everyone should listen to a Decca at some stage in their audio career (preferably a good sample and one that has been set up carefully), just to hear what the 'fuss' is about. If they are not for you than that is fair enough, at least you have tried the experience.

I always have a Decca set up on one of my decks to be offered that approach, whilst still enjoying MCs for their strengths. Having recently acquired an Ikeda cartridge: a moving coil design that has been influenced by Decca's 'direct scanning' philosophy in being a 'cantileverless' design, I'm enjoying the best of both worlds.How good is the Ikeda?

[worrasf]

It is about the music after all. If the system is beginning to reduce your enjoyment of the music, it is time for a rethink.

Exactly my take. I was spending far too much time angsting than listening


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[RobbieGong]

"Don’t get me wrong I have been (and still am) delighted with the DL-S1 and my Goldbug Brier and my Paradox Pulse DL-103R but TBH moving coils are just too much hassle. I’ve spent days and dollars getting various SUT’s and Headamps to match /partner these and other MC’s endlessly tweaking loading and gain to get the right setup and never really knowing if that sweet spot is the best it can be."

Just wanted to touch a bit on this part:

I've spent a shed load of time, cash and effort trying to capture the illusive match between a MC cart and a SUT or HA.

I just couldn't do it. Not without spending around £1k on a SUT. I have heard good combinations like the Kontrapunkt B and the Ortofon 80se. They work very well.

For me, there's a better way and that's using a phonostage DESIGNED for the use of MC. Thats what I decided to chase. In the end, we designed our own phonostage and it's worked out really well. I know that's not possible for everyone but there are phonostages out there that may change your opinion on your carts. We used a Jfet to do the gain work. There are others who do this too and with great results.

Good luck with the Super Gold. I've had three Deccas here, a super gold, a good and a blue, but never really took to them as a permanent solution.


Again, Can only agree.

In my case and very simplistically, using the mc phonostage built into the excellent Intergrated amps I've used has seen no faff and brought me no issues with the mc's I've used and that's because they've been designed to do the job.

[Bigman80]

Again, Can only agree.

In my case and very simplistically, using the mc phonostage built into the excellent Intergrated amps I've used has seen no faff and brought me no issues with the mc's I've used and that's because they've been designed to do the job.A lot of those integrated phonostages are far better than given credit. The one in Angus's AU-DII (I think that's right) is capable of speed and immediacy I've not heard from anything else.

They knew their stuff!!!

[worrasf]

In the same vein I suspect that Glenn’s affinity for Deccas likely means his MM phono stages are “Decca friendly” so the Super Gold and my Croft 25RS are a good match.

I know from personal experience that Deccas can be a PITA in some systems and not to everyone’s liking but when they work they can be magical


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[oldius]

Exactly my take. I was spending far too much time angsting than listening


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I agree. I now use two vintage integrated amps that have quality MC sections. I would just as happily use MM and have done with equally enjoyable results; I am just attached to by Art-1 and haven't heard better.

[phonomac]

Sansui AU-D11 II :guitar:


A lot of those integrated phonostages are far better than given credit. The one in Angus's AU-DII (I think that's right) is capable of speed and immediacy I've not heard from anything else.

They knew their stuff!!!

[Bigman80]

Sansui AU-D11 II :guitar:That's the one!

[fiddlemaker]

Also using a Decca (“podded” Blue with a paratrace tip) into a 25rs. Magical stuff. Works brilliantly with Nottingham Analogue arms. Superb with an Ace Space, jaw dropping with an Anna.


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[Patrick Dixon]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Deccas too. Currently using an SC4E on a Mission 774, but I have other Deccas ...

I always wanted to get that 'live' sound that you get when you go to a gig, and the Decca gets me closest to that.

I am still chasing the prefect arm for the Decca (to go with my grease 301 that I will one-day finish), but the 774 does OK.

[Wegamus]

I’ve not heard a Decca, they sound interesting, but I do remember Hi-Fi Critic measuring 3rd harmonic distortion of 9% on a Decca cart they tested. They suggested this could be the reason for their distinctive character.

Glad the OP is enjoying his, I’d love to hear one some day.

[Jimbo]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Deccas too. Currently using an SC4E on a Mission 774, but I have other Deccas ...

I always wanted to get that 'live' sound that you get when you go to a gig, and the Decca gets me closest to that.

I am still chasing the prefect arm for the Decca (to go with my grease 301 that I will one-day finish), but the 774 does OK.

I believe you can damp the 774 arm effectively which is a must for the Decca which pushes out a lot of raw energy!

[paulf-2007]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of Deccas too. Currently using an SC4E on a Mission 774, but I have other Deccas ...

I always wanted to get that 'live' sound that you get when you go to a gig, and the Decca gets me closest to that.

I am still chasing the prefect arm for the Decca (to go with my grease 301 that I will one-day finish), but the 774 does OK.
I had a C4e and it sounded great but I got a load of surface noise. I also tried my mates super gold, very nice too. My Shure ultra 500 is excellent and no hassle and gets top spot.

[Natara]

After a very expensive accident with a Dynavector 20x2L I’ve just bought an Audio Technica AT 150AE MM and am happy to know that not only can the stylus be replaced with these models it can also be upgraded with a ‘better’ stylus.

[fiddlemaker]

After a very expensive accident with a Dynavector 20x2L I’ve just bought an Audio Technica AT 150AE MM and am happy to know that not only can the stylus be replaced with these models it can also be upgraded with a ‘better’ stylus.

How do you find the sound compared with the Dynavector?


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[montesquieu]

For me, there's a better way and that's using a phonostage DESIGNED for the use of MC. Thats what I decided to chase. In the end, we designed our own phonostage and it's worked out really well. I know that's not possible for everyone but there are phonostages out there that may change your opinion on your carts. We used a Jfet to do the gain work. There are others who do this too and with great results.


My conclusion is the complete opposite. I have never heard even the most exotic and expensive straight to MC phono stage work as well as a decent MM phono stage + well-matched quality SUT. My own Aurorasound Vida is a case in point - obvious to anyone who visited - but I've heard the same time and time again, the £10k+ Thoress Phono Enhancer most recently.

When you are handling cartridges at 2 ohms and 0.015mV you are on a hiding to nothing trying to do it all with active gain. But in fact the same applies with less weird and wonderful stuff too. Yes it can be expensive but SUTs are far more flexible when it comes to matching (no obsessing over a few ohms loading here or there), get it right and the results are sublime.

[RobbieGong]

My conclusion is the complete opposite. I have never heard even the most exotic and expensive straight to MC phono stage work as well as a decent MM phono stage + well-matched quality SUT. My own Aurorasound Vida is a case in point - obvious to anyone who visited - but I've heard the same time and time again, the £10k+ Thoress Phono Enhancer most recently.

When you are handling cartridges at 2 ohms and 0.015mV you are on a hiding to nothing trying to do it all with active gain. But in fact the same applies with less weird and wonderful stuff too. Yes it can be expensive but SUTs are far more flexible when it comes to matching (no obsessing over a few ohms loading here or there), get it right and the results are sublime.


'Work as well'...... That can be a whole debate in itself for someone else.

You've expressed an approach that has gotten great results for you.

I and others have had what we regard as fabulous results from the simple approach of the excellent onboard phonostage's that are found in some integrated amps, no doubt.

In my case 2M Black mm through in-built onboard phonostage of a fairly humble Technics SU VX800 - no issues at all, lovely sound, really opened my eyes to how good the 2MB is.

Sansui AU-919 - Ortofon Quintet Black and Cadenza Black through in-built phonostage - beautiful !

Sansui AU alpha 707 DR - Cadenza Black and Cadenza Black with FGS upgrade re-tip through in-built.... - jawdropping ! :)

[montesquieu]

'Work as well'...... That can be a whole debate in itself for someone else.

You've expressed an approach that has gotten great results for you.

I and others have had what we regard as fabulous results from the simple approach of the excellent onboard phonostage's that are found in some integrated amps, no doubt.

In my case 2M Black mm through in-built onboard phonostage of a fairly humble Technics SU VX800 - no issues at all, lovely sound, really opened my eyes to how good the 2MB is.

Sansui AU-919 - Ortofon Quintet Black and Cadenza Black through in-built phonostage - beautiful !

Sansui AU alpha 707 DR - Cadenza Black and Cadenza Black with FGS upgrade re-tip through in-built.... - jawdropping ! :)

And you tried all of these into MM with a top quality SUT and know that direct is better?

[RobbieGong]

And you tried all of these into MM with a top quality SUT and know that direct is better?

2MB mm went into mm and the Quintet and Cadenza mc's went into mc.

Didnt say this simple approach was better just that I've had great results without any faff, hassle or issues in respect of the OPs thread.

[montesquieu]

2MB mm went into mm and the Quintet and Cadenza mc's went into mc.

Didnt say this simple approach was better just that I've had great results without any faff, hassle or issues in respect of the OPs thread.

I never argued that you could't get great results, only that my conclusions (on hearing a shed load of phono stages, cartridges, head amps and SUTs) were different from Olly's.My experience has been that ultimate results are to be had from using a SUT.

Other methods have their fans - head amps in particular I'm sympathetic to ... but I would put head amps in a different bracket to all-MC phono stages due to the special attention given to power supply, regulation etc just for that critical last bit of crud-free gain that's needed for MC over MM..

[RobbieGong]

I never argued that you could't get great results, only that my conclusions (on hearing a shed load of phono stages, cartridges, head amps and SUTs) were different from Olly's.My experience has been that ultimate results are to be had from using a SUT.

Other methods have their fans - head amps in particular I'm sympathetic to ... but I would put head amps in a different bracket to all-MC phono stages due to the special attention given to power supply, regulation etc just for that critical last bit of crud-free gain that's needed for MC over MM..

I didnt think you were arguing.

My responses are not against what you are saying at all as I've never tried that way.

My responses are more in line with the OPs thread 'I’m done with moving coil cartridge hassle'

His post goes on to express mc's as a hassle, therefore I'm just expresing that I havnt found that the case with the 'simple' approach I've always chosen / taken.

Certainly not knocking other approaches as I havnt tried them and I dont doubt that sublime results have been and can be achieved through other ways than the way I've done it so far.

[Ammonite Audio]

I'm with Tom on this one!

[Bigman80]

It's not news that Tom and I disagree on this subject lol.

The problem is also one that has seen many decide that the aggro and extra expense required to match a Cart & SUT doesn't reap the rewards often touted as achievable.

In truth, Ive never been convinced that any SUT I gave heard, except one, has offered the same level of transparency as a purpose built MC phonostage.

Not a MM phonostage with in built in SUTs masquerading as a MC phonostage either.

The ONLY SUT I've heard that might tempt me to give it an extended trial is the Ortofon 80se. Now I'll happily admit that I haven't heard everything and yes, I'm sure for £5k+ you can get some wonderful articles but why do I want to go down that route when I haven't been convinced it's the best form of gain. Its an increasingly expensive road before you get to anything half decent and if you don't get that all elusive synergy, guess what? You have to start again.

It's a hiding to nothing.

[montesquieu]

It's not news that Tom and I disagree on this subject lol.

The problem is also one that has seen many decide that the aggro and extra expense required to match a Cart & SUT doesn't reap the rewards often touted as achievable.

In truth, Ive never been convinced that any SUT I gave heard, except one, has offered the same level of transparency as a purpose built MC phonostage.

Not a MM phonostage with in built in SUTs masquerading as a MC phonostage either.

The ONLY SUT I've heard that might tempt me to give it an extended trial is the Ortofon 80se. Now I'll happily admit that I haven't heard everything and yes, I'm sure for £5k+ you can get some wonderful articles but why do I want to go down that route when I haven't been convinced it's the best form of gain. Its an increasingly expensive road before you get to anything half decent and if you don't get that all elusive synergy, guess what? You have to start again.

It's a hiding to nothing.


Don’t really follow the logic there - it’s a big hassle and lots of people have given up, therefore straight to MC is definitely better than everything seems to be the argument?

And are you really sure you’ve heard enough kit to be so definitive? How many SUT have you actually bought or borrowed and persevered with in getting them to work ?

As with everything in this game it’s about matching as much as (or even more so) than about £££. Though it’s true there aren’t many bargains in SUTs these days, and you do have to have a bit of nous about you when you address the subject as it’s not straightforward.

But just because something takes a bit of effort in getting your head and your ears around, and a bit of trial and error in gaining experience, is no cause to dismiss it out of hand. Just maybe there’s still more to lean out there ?

[Bigman80]

Don’t really follow the logic there - it’s a big hassle and lots of people have given up, therefore straight to MC is definitely better than everything seems to be the argument?

And are you really sure you’ve heard enough kit to be so definitive? How many SUT have you actually bought or borrowed and persevered with in getting them to work ?

As with everything in this game it’s about matching as much as (or even more so) than about £££. Though it’s true there aren’t many bargains in SUTs these days, and you do have to have a bit of nous about you when you address the subject as it’s not straightforward.

But just because something takes a bit of effort in getting your head and your ears around, and a bit of trial and error in gaining experience, is no cause to dismiss it out of hand. Just maybe there’s still more to lean out there ?I've heard enough SUTs and Headamps for my opinion to have formed, Tom. I haven't just "given up" I went through a period where there was a different SUT or HA in my system every other week! It just never sounded right to me.

Have I heard £5k+ SUTs? Yes. But I can't afford to buy them and nor would I! The other thing to recognise is that most people can't splurge that kind of money on a SUT either, so suffer the effects of a poor SUT, a lack of "synergy" or find an alternative method was my conclusion.

I am more than happy with the route I've taken and I won't be revisiting SUTs.

[Bigman80]

Oh, just to add:

The Bob's device I somehow managed not to buy from you was the best SUT I tried. I'd give that another shot.

[Ammonite Audio]

Oh, just to add:

The Bob's device I somehow managed not to buy from you was the best SUT I tried. I'd give that another shot.

And the Bob's will be far better than an Ortofon ST-80SE - I know, since I went from a Cinemag Bob's to the Ortofon which was supposedly a great match for a Kontrapunkt B. Wrong!

Seriously, though, Tom has a very broad experience of most things analogue and we can all learn a lot from him, since he's spent a load of money over the years that we now don't have to, if we just respect his experience and heed his advice. I certainly did. As for MC SUTs, if you have not read the article in the latest HiFi Critic on the subject, I recommend that you get hold of a copy. The interview with Andy Grove of Audio Note on SUT design is interesting, and full of common sense.

[Bigman80]

And the Bob's will be far better than an Ortofon ST-80SE - I know, since I went from a Cinemag Bob's to the Ortofon which was supposedly a great match for a Kontrapunkt B. Wrong!

Seriously, though, Tom has a very broad experience of most things analogue and we can all learn a lot from him, since he's spent a load of money over the years that we now don't have to, if we just respect his experience and heed his advice. I certainly did. As for MC SUTs, if you have not read the article in the latest HiFi Critic on the subject, I recommend that you get hold of a copy. The interview with Andy Grove of Audio Note on SUT design is interesting, and full of common sense.Tom knows I respect his opinion on all things analogue. Or at least I hope he does!

Thing is, he and others are playing a different game to me. I can't buy all the kit to try, especially at the prices demanded for that sort of kit. I have to try and find the best rewards for my money and so far, I've done that with my setup.

If we're completely honest, we all know that unless you are dropping serious sums on Analogue pieces, you are playing in the middle ground. But there is alternatives and for my spending ability, I haven't found a better way to use a MC cartridge.

As for the Ortofon SUT, you have just highlighted my issue in your example. I bought numerous SUTs touted to be perfect for the Ortofon Kontrapunkt B. All under £400. They didn't work. The only one that came close and I still regret managing to not buy it, was the Bob's device. One (I won't name it) sounded so bad I couldn't believe the amount of recommendations for it. I was convinced these people were deaf. It absolutely deconstructed the sound and somehow managed to not put it back together in any sort of cohesive music. It was utter shit.

My MC phonostage cost me £350 to build and sounds better than the same phonostage in MM version with any SUT I tried. So that's £350 for the MM phonostage AND £400 for the SUT lol.

£350 v £750 and the £350 sounds better IMO

No contest!

[montesquieu]

It’s not much of a sample though really?

The issue with sweeping, definitive pronouncements is that you don’t know what you don’t know.

Once you’ve tried the same trick with several dozens of SUTs, dozens of phono stages at all price points from £100 to £10k+, and many dozens of MC cartridges, as quite a few of us here have done, then sweeping statements become a bit more possible.

[Bigman80]

It’s not much of a sample though really?

The issue with sweeping, definitive pronouncements is that you don’t know what you don’t know.

Once you’ve tried the same trick with several dozens of SUTs, dozens of phono stages at all price points from £100 to £10k+, and many dozens of MC cartridges, as quite a few of us here have done, then sweeping statements become a bit more possible.Trouble is Tom, people who don't agree with your viewpoint discredit it with comment like "you haven't heard XYZ" or "You haven't heard enough SUTs to make sweeping statements"

My opinion is that unless you're gonna drop £2k+ on a SUT, you're unlikely to get the kind of results you get with yours or other people claim to get.

I don't want to do that, I tried to do it cheaper and couldn't. That's what led me to my solution.

I am qualified to speak of my own experience which is all I have done and whether anyone agrees with me or not is of no consequence to me.

There has been over 10 SUTs and Headamps paired up with the Kb. How many more would you like me to get through before my opinion that I didn't like anyone of them and there is an easier way to do it, becomes qualified?

Only one I've heard would possibly get a run out and that's the Ortofon 80se and they are £1.5k!

I wasn't convinced it would better my lowly £2 JFET when I heard that either!

Based on the comments here, the Ortofon 80se doesn't match well with the Kb, I'd probably love it!!!

[worrasf]

It’s not much of a sample though really?

The issue with sweeping, definitive pronouncements is that you don’t know what you don’t know.

Once you’ve tried the same trick with several dozens of SUTs, dozens of phono stages at all price points from £100 to £10k+, and many dozens of MC cartridges, as quite a few of us here have done, then sweeping statements become a bit more possible.

As the OP here I thought it's time I chipped in again. The above comment/suggestion/pathway by Tom exempifies my original point. It may well be possible to finally get a perfect match after going down this route but really? I'd prefer to spend my precious time listening to the tunes not OCDing over SUT/cartridge matching and never knowing whether the next combo I tried would be the magic pairing.

There is no doubt that the Denon AU-S1 SUT specifically made to partner the Denon DL-S1 was the best match I could get after buggering about with SUT's various but so it bloody well should be at the price. With a Decca there is no need to go through purgatory before getting to heaven. Unless of course one derives pleasure and satisfaction from the process which is absolutely fine it just doesn't float my boat that's all I'm saying.

[Bigman80]

As the OP here I thought it's time I chipped in again. The above comment/suggestion/pathway by Tom exempifies my original point. It may well be possible to finally get a perfect match after going down this route but really? I'd prefer to spend my precious time listening to the tunes not OCDing over SUT/cartridge matching and never knowing whether the next combo I tried would be the magic pairing.

There is no doubt that the Denon AU-S1 SUT specifically made to partner the Denon DL-S1 was the best match I could get after buggering about with SUT's various but so it bloody well should be at the price. With a Decca there is no need to go through purgatory before getting to heaven. Unless of course one derives pleasure and satisfaction from the process which is absolutely fine it just doesn't float my boat that's all I'm saying.Amen to that.

[montesquieu]

As the OP here I thought it's time I chipped in again. The above comment/suggestion/pathway by Tom exempifies my original point. It may well be possible to finally get a perfect match after going down this route but really? I'd prefer to spend my precious time listening to the tunes not OCDing over SUT/cartridge matching and never knowing whether the next combo I tried would be the magic pairing.

There is no doubt that the Denon AU-S1 SUT specifically made to partner the Denon DL-S1 was the best match I could get after buggering about with SUT's various but so it bloody well should be at the price. With a Decca there is no need to go through purgatory before getting to heaven. Unless of course one derives pleasure and satisfaction from the process which is absolutely fine it just doesn't float my boat that's all I'm saying.

Absolutely fine as an approach but you are acknowledging you have heard better out there, were you willing to pay for it. There's a difference between that and persuading yourself that such an improvement doesn't exist.

And not everyone has OCD about these things or spends hours 'worrying' about optimal matching - yes I've spent a lot of time over the last 20+ years playing with lots of different SUTs and head amps, mainly out of curiosity (I have five SUT options here at the moment, one internal to my preamp, one retailing at £2,500, another at £1600, one that cost me £650 all up to have built, and another that cost me under £100 - all have their good points), and also because at any one time I have maybe 10 cartridges to play with and it's fun listening to what they all do differently. If that stresses you out then absolutely better to bail out and keep it simple - though I would suggest for most people here such mucking about is a good part of the fun.

For me I separate the faffing from the listening - the overwhelming majority of evenings (since I don't own a TV) no faffing with kit gets done, just listening. But playing with kit is absolutely part of the fun on some occasions especially when a new cartridge arrives.

[WESTLOWER]

As the OP here I thought it's time I chipped in again. The above comment/suggestion/pathway by Tom exempifies my original point. It may well be possible to finally get a perfect match after going down this route but really? I'd prefer to spend my precious time listening to the tunes not OCDing over SUT/cartridge matching and never knowing whether the next combo I tried would be the magic pairing.

There is no doubt that the Denon AU-S1 SUT specifically made to partner the Denon DL-S1 was the best match I could get after buggering about with SUT's various but so it bloody well should be at the price. With a Decca there is no need to go through purgatory before getting to heaven. Unless of course one derives pleasure and satisfaction from the process which is absolutely fine it just doesn't float my boat that's all I'm saying.

But isn't part of that exploratory journey part of the Fun?
If one uses the experiences and knowledge of others as guidance, partly the reason for grown men to get involved in these here fora, it needn't be as painful and as expensive as is being portrayed.

[WESTLOWER]

Absolutely fine as an approach but you are acknowledging you have heard better out there, were you willing to pay for it. There's a difference between that and persuading yourself that such an improvement doesn't exist.

And not everyone has OCD about these things or spends hours 'worrying' about optimal matching - yes I've spent a lot of time over the last 20+ years playing with lots of different SUTs and head amps, mainly out of curiosity (I have five SUT options here at the moment, one internal to my preamp, one retailing at £2,500, another at £1600, one that cost me £650 all up to have built, and another that cost me under £100 - all have their good points), and also because at any one time I have maybe 10 cartridges to play with and it's fun listening to what they all do differently. If that stresses you out then absolutely better to bail out and keep it simple - though I would suggest for most people here such mucking about is a good part of the fun.

For me I separate the faffing from the listening - the overwhelming majority of evenings (since I don't own a TV) no faffing with kit gets done, just listening. But playing with kit is absolutely part of the fun on some occasions especially when a new cartridge arrives.

Amen to that.

[worrasf]

But isn't part of that exploratory journey part of the Fun?


No, not necessarily. That's exactly the point I am making.
I am no newbie to this sport. I've been collecting HiFi kit for the last 45 years and during that time learned (and passed on) a huge amount. I have spent countless hours matching carts to SUT's, tube rolling, cable swapping feeding my OCD etc etc and derived huge enjoyment along the way. My OP was about coming voluntarily and in full knowledge to the end of that road. If nothing else it's sparked a debate.

[WESTLOWER]

No, not necessarily. That's exactly the point I am making.
I am no newbie to this sport. I've been collecting HiFi kit for the last 45 years and during that time learned (and passed on) a huge amount. I have spent countless hours matching carts to SUT's, tube rolling, cable swapping feeding my OCD etc etc and derived huge enjoyment along the way. My OP was about coming voluntarily and in full knowledge to the end of that road. If nothing else it's sparked a debate.

Fair enough..

[montesquieu]

No, not necessarily. That's exactly the point I am making.
I am no newbie to this sport. I've been collecting HiFi kit for the last 45 years and during that time learned (and passed on) a huge amount. I have spent countless hours matching carts to SUT's, tube rolling, cable swapping feeding my OCD etc etc and derived huge enjoyment along the way. My OP was about coming voluntarily and in full knowledge to the end of that road. If nothing else it's sparked a debate.

You finished too then Olly? :)

Seriously I expect to be faffing with SUTs, cartridges and tonearms - for fun, not out of OCD - till some gravedigger slaps my arse with shovel.

[worrasf]

You finished too then Olly? :)

till some gravedigger slaps my arse with shovel.

Behind you ....... :wheniwasaboy: :harp: :deceased:


:rfl:

[Bigman80]

You finished too then Olly? :)

Seriously I expect to be faffing with SUTs, cartridges and tonearms - for fun, not out of OCD - till some gravedigger slaps my arse with shovel.Never! Lol [emoji38]

Seriously, if there's an area in the system that caused me the most aggro it was trying to match a SUT and cartridge. I followed all the wisdom, I even took your advice, Tom, as you know. The Bob's Device was the closest I got to "acceptable" as an uncolored SUT.

I was just never totally convinced the SUT wasn't having an effect or adding colour to the sound.

Hashimotos, Rothwells, Ortofons, Bob's devices, Fidelity Research, Technics, Denons etc, all came through here. They didn't outperform the little FETs. Budget is a factor and I got to the very top of my budget and couldn't get what I get from the FET.

Like the OP, the frustration started to overshadow the listening and I started to feel like binning the lot.

Whilst I acknowledge that for a price (read "big spend") there is probably a SUT out there that would be superb in my system, I'm not in a position to buy it and I'm not actually thinking I'm missing out because nothing else I have heard has made me think "hmmmm, maybe I need a SUT instead of these JFETS".

I'll never say never, just unlikely.

[RobbieGong]

Never! Lol [emoji38]

Seriously, if there's an area in the system that caused me the most aggro it was trying to match a SUT and cartridge. I followed all the wisdom, I even took your advice, Tom, as you know. The Bob's Device was the closest I got to "acceptable" as an uncolored SUT.

I was just never totally convinced the SUT wasn't having an effect or adding colour to the sound.

Hashimotos, Rothwells, Ortofons, Bob's devices, Fidelity Research, Technics, Denons etc, all came through here. They didn't outperform the little FETs. Budget is a factor and I got to the very top of my budget and couldn't get what I get from the FET.

Like the OP, the frustration started to overshadow the listening and I started to feel like binning the lot.

Whilst I acknowledge that for a price (read "big spend") there is probably a SUT out there that would be superb in my system, I'm not in a position to buy it and I'm not actually thinking I'm missing out because nothing else I have heard has made me think "hmmmm, maybe I need a SUT instead of these JFETS".

I'll never say never, just unlikely.

Yep ! Same here on that

[Mike Adams]

Interesting thread but I agree with Tom.
I fully agree that matching SUTs with MC is an added layer of complication and it is absolutely fine if folk don't want to play around getting the ideal match but this is a lot different from saying that its a superior solution.
Im still in early days with the whole analogue side, and for me (as others here) Ive definitely benefitted from hearing and buying know solutions to what fits...
However that (typically) isn't stopping me from continuing to try new and different...Sometimes you just have to wait a while to try the thing you really want....

[NRG]

Have any of you tried loading the primary of your SUTs? I think you’ll be surprised.

Some background info: http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformers_explai.html

[Mike Reed]

Now I know that Tom has experience in this scenario, but my on-board E.A.R. m/c stages are very good, AND have SUTs within them. From my limited experience the m/m stages are pretty good as well. Having never experimented with an S.U.T., I wonder if i would simply be duplicating, in effect, what I already have. I'm a wee bit sceptical about the benefits of more I/Cs and boxes (despite coming from 25 years of Naim), and I do love the simplicity of everything under one roof (except amplification, that is). However, I've always been a m/c cart. fanatic.

[montesquieu]

Now I know that Tom has experience in this scenario, but my on-board E.A.R. m/c stages are very good, AND have SUTs within them. From my limited experience the m/m stages are pretty good as well. Having never experimented with an S.U.T., I wonder if i would be simply be duplicating, in effect, what I already have. I'm a wee bit sceptical about the benefits of more I/Cs and boxes (despite coming from 25 years of Naim), and I do love the simplicity of everything under one roof (except amplification, that is). However, I've always been a m/c cart. fanatic.

Tim de P has a whole bunch of different phono stage designs including the all-tube LCR one in the EAR912 (3 tubes), the tube-FET hybrid LCR one in the PB88 and 868 preamp (2 tubes), the CR tube design in the 834P, and the solid state one in the 324 preamp, but all of these are MM stages, in most cases also fronted up by step-up transformers, none of them are direct to MC gain stages.

My own EAR 912 has four SUT ratios available internally that are similar to (but not quite the same as) Tim's MC4 stand-alone SUT. I added the Miyajima SUTs to the front of mine because the stereo one **just** outperformed the internal one, and the dedicated mono SUT brought something quite distinct to the party. But for most purposes they are absolutely fine and have the huge advantage of being absolutely silent/hum free which can be hard to achieve with an external SUT in many setups.

[Mike Reed]

Nice to know that you still have the 912, Tom, and thanks for your comments. Must admit, I was foxed by the utterly different complexities in loadings as found on the 912, coming from s/s stages. I thought there might be a correlation with internal impedance (of the cart.), but really, it's a case of 'fiddle until it sounds good'. Leaning heavily towards being a listener rather than a tweaker, I tend to simply leave things in the same position unless a record 'shouts' for some adjustment.

Incidentally, I don't know if yours is a remotely controlled one, but the tiny and impractical control I bought last summer varies between erratic and dead; have never had consistency from it. The battery died soon after receiving it (which I reported). Hardly ever use it, either !

[User211]

I think the Trichord Diablo and NCPSU is better than the SLUT (oops) based MC stage in the EAR 868PL.

At least the Trichord uses decent quality components, which were sadly lacking in the 868.

I'm not trying to be contentious. I am just staying what I thought/think after owning the EAR. Initially I thought I liked it. But after a while I realised it just wasn't for me. I felt the MC stage verged on the side of dullness. The Trichord is just simply better defined and more engaging.

It might not be down to Tim's SUT, but rather the fact I never really seem to like phono stages with valves in.

[montesquieu]

Contrary to some of the misinformation that’s out there (some of it propagated by big name reviewers) both the phono stage and SUT are different designs/specs between the 868pl/88pb on the one hand and the 912 on the other. The 868 has the three settings 4 ohm, 12 ohm and 40 ohm from the old MC3 external SUT. It can tricky to get a decent match with that.

Though the labelled settings on this and indeed on the 912 (labelled 3,6,12and 40 ohm, further adjustable for overall gain through an interstate transformer enabling a total of 12 setting options) have only an approximate match to cartridge impedance and the best sound as Mike says are best had by fiddling.

I added external SUTs only partly as the internals can be bettered - might have been worth you trying this Justin as the 868pl phono stage itself is LCR and top notch, if different from the one in the 912 - but also because I had some specific matching needs in my cartridge stable.

[montesquieu]

Incidentally, I don't know if yours is a remotely controlled one, but the tiny and impractical control I bought last summer varies between erratic and dead; have never had consistency from it. The battery died soon after receiving it (which I reported). Hardly ever use it, either !

Missed this bit ... about 2-3 years ago EAR brought out a nice (if, as you say, tiny) metal remote ... my first one went back as it was very flaky. The second works better but is crap in 2 ways - 1) range - I need to lean forward from my usual 4m+ sitting position to something closer to 3m from the preamp for it to work at all, and 2) it's very fierce - the motor moves very quickly so it's hard not to over or undershoot the volume you want. (A common enough issue for preamp remotes, mind you. )

Actually the original old plastic remote for the EAR 912 that came with mine works much better, I had thought it was broken but turns out I had replaced the duff batteries with equally duff ones. So I didn't need to buy the metal one at all.

[Mike Reed]

Just checked and the battery is flat, Tom. Second in 6 or 7 months (after the supplied one failed within weeks) with virtually no usage. Could be a coincidence but I'll order some more and see how it goes, but so far I've never had a more unreliable remote; for anything ! Very unlike E.A.R. It's also rather expensive at £84 or so !!!!!

[montesquieu]

Just checked and the battery is flat, Tom. Second in 6 or 7 months (after the supplied one failed within weeks) with virtually no usage. Could be a coincidence but I'll order some more and see how it goes, but so far I've never had a more unreliable remote; for anything ! Very unlike E.A.R. It's also rather expensive at £84 or so !!!!!

Batteries in mine (the replacement metal one) are two years old now and still going so yours can't be a healthy one.

BTW I'm not sure how much Tim De P does these days other than be the front man at shows, day to day it's the younger generation now, not like it was in their old premises when you would see Tim out back with a soldering iron in his hand!