I've got one !

[Tmltech]

Hi All

I managed to meet up with Stan yesterday at his premises in London as I was working close to him . Firstly many thanks to Stan who is a thoroughly nice chap to do business with, we also had a short natter about things other than the Caimen etc. Unfortunately time was pressing so could not stay long as I had to get back home. Stan if you are reading this the huge monster of my car averaged 55.6mpg (just under two gallons) on way back to Longleat :D:D:D

Picked up the latest Caimen, PSU and Dorado along with recommended COAX and Optical cable from his site. He did me a really good deal, thanks Stan

Looking forward to installing this on Saturday the 23rd February, Ill give it about a week or so to run in and then report my findings.

Looking forward to it

Andy

[AJSki2fly]

Hi All


Picked up the latest Caimen, PSU and Dorado along with recommended COAX and Optical cable from his site. He did me a really good deal, thanks Stan

Looking forward to installing this on Saturday the 23rd February, Ill give it about a week or so to run in and then report my findings.

Looking forward to it

Andy

Your in for a very pleasant surprise, I use mine for digital streaming from RPi/DAC and as pure DAC from my Meridian 508 24bit, both with excellent results IMO.

Enyoy[emoji3]

[Hypnotist]

As said above your in for a surprise how different your music is going to be, needs a bit of a burn in though to reveal itself.:D

[Tmltech]

Thanks was going to plug in on Saturday morning and leave it running on CD on repeat or online radio with headphones plugged in for 72 hours or so, I'd that sufficient enough or should I increase that? My headphones took 100hrs plus to really come on song so am a great believer in run in

[AJSki2fly]

I found that 20-30 and there was a marked improvement

[Hypnotist]

Yes 30hrs was a turning point for mine as well

[pitadavespa]

I also bought one, with the Dorado.
I listened to it for 3 or 4 hours and couldn't stand it. I packed it the same moment and return it to Stan a few days later.

What improvements did you notice after those 20-30 hours?

[AJSki2fly]

I also bought one, with the Dorado.
I listened to it for 3 or 4 hours and couldn't stand it. I packed it the same moment and return it to Stan a few days later.

What improvements did you notice after those 20-30 hours?

If you had let it stabilise and settle down then I think you would have noticed that even it was digital that it actually sounded very natural musically speaking. That is if you put a reasonable feed through it. In the morning we listen to BBC radio 2 from Rpi and Volumio through Caiman and the feed is at 320kbps which (see http://steveseear.org/high-quality-bbc-radio-streams/ it’s not cd level but still sounds quite good. If I listen to cd level files or feeds from TIDAL then the SQ is excellent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pitadavespa]

If you had let it stabilise and settle down then I think you would have noticed that even it was digital that it actually sounded very natural musically speaking. That is if you put a reasonable feed through it. In the morning we listen to BBC radio 2 from Rpi and Volumio through Caiman and the feed is at 320kbps which (see http://steveseear.org/high-quality-bbc-radio-streams/ it’s not cd level but still sounds quite good. If I listen to cd level files or feeds from TIDAL then the SQ is excellent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That was the problem... To me it was far from natural (or neutral)... I felt like I had connected an equalizer in my system and boosted some frequencies, like a big loudness button. I didn't like it, although I tried. Maybe it was just not for me...
Also, I felt (and I never thought I would say this in my life!) that music had too much dynamic. To me, the SEG somehow boosts the volume on the louder parts and does the opposite on the quieter ones. Every album I listened to resulted in more dynamic than the disk itself has. Nothing sounded real or natural to me.

I have to say I don't believe in burn in when mechanical parts are not involved. I just don't get it. In a normal home ambient temperature, after a few minutes everything has to be playing as it should.
My new TV doesn't have better image after a few days burning in, nor my new computer is faster or more accurate doing its calculations.

Regarding the rest of the system, I was using a RPi (with Volumio and Tidal HIFI) or my CD transport, so they were not the culprits.

I asked Stan for some advice, data regarding frequency response measurements, or even if I could be doing something wrong, but he said that if I didn't like the DAC, I could send it back.
He suggested that if I was not accustomed to the high quality frequency response and dynamic range of a good DAC, maybe I should buy a Chinese DAC and save money.


I'm sure Stan's a nice guy and all you guys can't all be wrong about his DACs.
Maybe I have a different taste or am accustomed to a different sound. I don't know...

Cheers, enjoy your music,
Luis

[AJSki2fly]

Hi Luis, bear with me but this may be as you infer due to how/what you are used to listening to. If you are of of younger age then your listening may have been predominantly with compressed music files or modern music mixes where the dynamics are compressed and you have what is known as the modern wall of sound. If this has been predominantly your listening experience then aspects of light and shade will have been lost. To get and idea of what I’m talking about listen to a couple of hi res tracks from Supertramp - crime of the century this is well know for big dynamic range.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sherwood]

Real music is infinitely more dynamic than that produced by the vast majority of hifi systems. It is much easier to put together a hifi system that is (generally) accurate tonally than it is to assemble one that has realistic transients and dynamics. Furthermore, many people, either by choice or by necessity (i.e. not annoying the neighbours) listen to music at quite low volume levels which further limits dynamics. Hearing a system that is capable of reproducing dynamics well can be a shock and many people just don't like it. I use a SEG with the Dorado and agree that the handling of dynamics and detail is very good. I would disagree strongly that it is artificial or exaggerated but I can understand why some users may dislike the sound. The same goes for bass extension. The SEG is capable of producing a very extended bass response with excellent handling of timbre and texture. This can cause problems for underpowered systems or speakers with loose slow bass responses.

Geoff

[pitadavespa]

Hi, Adrian, thank you for your kind input.

I was born in the 70's, so before this loudness war became "standard". I understand your point, but it's not the case (fortunately).

Don't get me wrong. I love dynamic! I hate to listen to these highly compressed albums nowadays and I almost feel sorry for the "kids" who never listened to music without (noticeable) compression.
But what I felt with the SEG was some type of compression/suppression thing (it's difficult to me to express better in English) that didn't sound natural to me.

I don't intend to feed this further regarding my opinion about the SEG, though.
I was just trying to understand what you guys notice is better after 30 hours burning in, and why.


Cheers,
L

BTW: my DAC is a Rotel RDP-980 (slightly modified with OPA627) and a Rotel RDD-980 transport with a CDM9-pro fitted. Not the best in the world, or I wouldn't be searching for a better one, but pretty damn good to me. ;)

[pitadavespa]

Real music is infinitely more dynamic than that produced by the vast majority of hifi systems. It is much easier to put together a hifi system that is (generally) accurate tonally than it is to assemble one that has realistic transients and dynamics. Furthermore, many people, either by choice or by necessity (i.e. not annoying the neighbours) listen to music at quite low volume levels which further limits dynamics. Hearing a system that is capable of reproducing dynamics well can be a shock and many people just don't like it. I use a SEG with the Dorado and agree that the handling of dynamics and detail is very good. I would disagree strongly that it is artificial or exaggerated but I can understand why some users may dislike the sound. The same goes for bass extension. The SEG is capable of producing a very extended bass response with excellent handling of timbre and texture. This can cause problems for underpowered systems or speakers with loose slow bass responses.

Geoff

Hi, Geoff.

I understand and agree with your point regarding live music dynamics and our systems (and houses) (in)ability to reproduce it.
I have to disagree about the SEG part, though. Artificial or exaggerated are indeed good words to describe what I felt (although I may be COMPLETELY wrong!).

What do you mean about extended bass response?
Every Beresford DAC (and please note I have nothing against Stanley or his brand) that comes out is capable of more and better extended bass response, or so I read many times.
My questions, because I like to understand and question things a bit, are: Why? How? Does it mean that a 30Hz -40dB tone on a disk can be 33Hz -38dB on one DAC and 28Hz -37dB on another? And this all can change with a few hours of burn in?
So, how can an engineer built something? He tries to figure how each part will "sound" after burning in?
That's the type of questions I ask myself, in order to try to understand.

I just want my system to be as much enjoyable as possible, but I also want to be sure I'm hearing what is on the record, as much as possible, and the Sound Engineer's work (for good and for bad), not my system's sound.
Does it make sense?

OP: sorry if I changed your posts focus...

[AJSki2fly]

I don't intend to feed this further regarding my opinion about the SEG, though.
I was just trying to understand what you guys notice is better after 30 hours burning in, and why.

BTW: my DAC is a Rotel RDP-980 (slightly modified with OPA627) and a Rotel RDD-980 transport with a CDM9-pro fitted. Not the best in the world, or I wouldn't be searching for a better one, but pretty damn good to me. ;)

Well at risk of being shot down in flames perhaps yours had an issue from build, DACs'Chips etc are complex beasts and no-one has made the perfect manufacturing process and pre delivery testing. So it might be worth trying another, you never know. Alternatively move on and have a go at another, I have read on here that the Schit one are pretty good, I was also tempted by the iFi DAC's which are highly rate.

Cheers

Adrian

[pitadavespa]

Well at risk of being shot down in flames perhaps yours had an issue from build, DACs'Chips etc are complex beasts and no-one has made the perfect manufacturing process and pre delivery testing. So it might be worth trying another, you never know. Alternatively move on and have a go at another, I have read on here that the Schit one are pretty good, I was also tempted by the iFi DAC's which are highly rate.

Cheers

Adrian

Agreed. The unit having something wrong was a possibility for me.

Cheers,
L

[Sherwood]

Hi, Geoff.

I understand and agree with your point regarding live music dynamics and our systems (and houses) (in)ability to reproduce it.
I have to disagree about the SEG part, though. Artificial or exaggerated are indeed good words to describe what I felt (although I may be COMPLETELY wrong!).

What do you mean about extended bass response?
Every Beresford DAC (and please note I have nothing against Stanley or his brand) that comes out is capable of more and better extended bass response, or so I read many times.
My questions, because I like to understand and question things a bit, are: Why? How? Does it mean that a 30Hz -40dB tone on a disk can be 33Hz -38dB on one DAC and 28Hz -37dB on another? And this all can change with a few hours of burn in?
So, how can an engineer built something? He tries to figure how each part will "sound" after burning in?
That's the type of questions I ask myself, in order to try to understand.

I just want my system to be as much enjoyable as possible, but I also want to be sure I'm hearing what is on the record, as much as possible, and the Sound Engineer's work (for good and for bad), not my system's sound.
Does it make sense?

OP: sorry if I changed your posts focus...

The answer is simple. Consider a vinyl recording. Many turntables and arm/cartridges are typically very poor at reproducing the timbre of bass or the "presence" of an instrument such as a double bass or cello. That does not mean that the information is not on the disc. The same applies to a DAC. Some DACs are better than others at recovering low bass notes and in conveying the timbre of bass instruments. In my opinion, the SEG is one such DAC, and the Dorado unit further enhances this capability. You say that you don't believe in "burn in" but most SEG/Dorado users would disagree, especially in the case of the SEG with the Dorado. If you didn't like it that's fine. You were able to send it back and get a refund. However, I think you will find that the vast majority of SEG/Dorado users are very pleased with the performance of this combo and consider it to be a very analogue sounding setup.

Geoff

[pitadavespa]

The answer is simple. Consider a vinyl recording. Many turntables and arm/cartridges are typically very poor at reproducing the timbre of bass or the "presence" of an instrument such as a double bass or cello. That does not mean that the information is not on the disc. The same applies to a DAC. Some DACs are better than others at recovering low bass notes and in conveying the timbre of bass instruments. In my opinion, the SEG is one such DAC, and the Dorado unit further enhances this capability.

Geoff, to my ears, the SEG's sound was a big mess. I thought I would love it. I wanted to love it. But I didn't. Maybe it's just not for me.
But I already left my opinion and I don't intend to depreciate it, so I won't comment about it any more.


You say that you don't believe in "burn in" but most SEG/Dorado users would disagree, especially in the case of the SEG with the Dorado. If you didn't like it that's fine. You were able to send it back and get a refund. However, I think you will find that the vast majority of SEG/Dorado users are very pleased with the performance of this combo and consider it to be a very analogue sounding setup.

Geoff

No, I don't believe in burn in. Not when mechanical parts are not involved. But I believe our brain gets used to a different type of sound after a few hours/days, and we are led to believe that's caused by the burn in effect. I hope I'm not being rude, but that is what I believe.

But, supposing it exists, why 20-30 hours? If something evolves during the firsts 30 hours or so, why does it stop? Or when can we expect it to stop getting better and better? Why not 500 hours, just to be sure?
Are chips, resistances, caps, transistors, etc. not fully working when they are new?
And why don't the manufactures say in a clear way, black on white, and prove it, that burn in exists?
It would be so easy to grab two units of the same product, measure boths "sound" with an oscilloscope, then burn in one of them for a week or so and then remeasure both to see the differences. When I see that, believe me: I'll believe. :)
I'm not the most informed person regarding this, but I don't remember having ever seen proves, measures, graphs. Only subject "talk". And, believe me, I was a believer, once. ;)

I now believe that, in the first minutes turned on, temperature can have a bit of influence, but then it's gone. It's our brain that does the rest.
Like when, late at night, all our systems sound better. That's not because they're turned on for 18 hours or so. That's because everything is much more silent around us and we can hear all the details better.

This is just my humble opinion, just that and nothing more than that. I don't want you to take it. I just like to question things. :)
What matters is we hear and enjoy music.


Cheers,
Luis

[Pepperamip]

I have always experienced burn in with virtually every piece of new hifi i have ever owned. The sound almost always changed for the better with any harshness dicipates with time. I doubt my brain has been tricked every time but i see why some think like that. Each to their own as they say

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[PeteC]

QUAD always aimed to provide " the closest approach to the original sound", a fine ideal. During my days with the BBC I had the privilege of being able to move from the studio with a full orchestra playing into the sound control room to listen to the mix on studio monitor speakers. The best recording engineers really did get pretty close to the real sound, but perfection eludes us all in such a pursuit.

If you really want to test things may I suggest that you have a night out at a real concert hall, with a real orchestra an then obtain a recording of the same music and listen to it at home. How close does this come to resembling the real thing?

If you enjoyed the real concert then this could be dangerous as you might end up joining the rest of us nutcases in spending vast sums of money and too much time striving to chase the impossible, as QUAD always did.

If you are lucky enough to enjoy heavily processed sound, all compressed into an MP3 file then you might save a lot of cash!

[Lawrence001]

As has been said in other threads recently, people are free to give their opinions on gear in this forum, it might be positive or negative, and others are free to ignore it if they wish.

I can't comment on Stan's dacs as I've never owned one. The language used in the critique did remind me a lot of what I've thought with Sabre dacs I've owned however. Especially the loudness button comment. I did wonder if sabre had built some form of DSP into their chips as the sound seemed boosted in some way, both in terms of frequency response and soundstage/width. I assume technically minded people would pick it up very quickly with their measuring equipment so I must be wrong (unless it can be done in such a way that doesn't show up). But that's still how they sound to me.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[pitadavespa]

I have always experienced burn in with virtually every piece of new hifi i have ever owned. The sound almost always changed for the better with any harshness dicipates with time. I doubt my brain has been tricked every time but i see why some think like that. Each to their own as they say

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Hi, Paul.

I believe you notice what you describe, but I'd love to see some scientific tests reinforcing and explaining it. I'm not aware of any.

Food for thoughts:
Does your new printer makes better prints after printing 30 photos?
I'm sure you've already burned some music CDs to play on your system. If you burn 30 times the same album with your brand new computer, is the last one any different from the others?

Amateur hifi is very subjective, and hifi business/marketing makes sure it continues that way.

Cheers,
Luis

[pitadavespa]

QUAD always aimed to provide " the closest approach to the original sound", a fine ideal. During my days with the BBC I had the privilege of being able to move from the studio with a full orchestra playing into the sound control room to listen to the mix on studio monitor speakers. The best recording engineers really did get pretty close to the real sound, but perfection eludes us all in such a pursuit.

If you really want to test things may I suggest that you have a night out at a real concert hall, with a real orchestra an then obtain a recording of the same music and listen to it at home. How close does this come to resembling the real thing?

If you enjoyed the real concert then this could be dangerous as you might end up joining the rest of us nutcases in spending vast sums of money and too much time striving to chase the impossible, as QUAD always did.

If you are lucky enough to enjoy heavily processed sound, all compressed into an MP3 file then you might save a lot of cash!

Hi, Peter.

It must have been an incredible experience to work in BBC! I envy you! (in a good way) :)

I was never a professional musician, but I played the clarinet for 11 years in an orchestra. I know what some instruments sound. And I know what dynamic is.
That's why I can't stand compressed music. I have, maybe, 5 MP3 albuns, but just because I can't find them in better quality anywhere.
And I LOVE a live concert in a good hall! :)

Cheers,
Luis

edit: I don't like compressed music in terms of compressed dynamics. I listen to a (good) MP3 in less demanding or less proper listening conditions without any problem. But sometimes my brain seems a bit more tired with MP3 than with CD or FLAC.

[pitadavespa]

As has been said in other threads recently, people are free to give their opinions on gear in this forum, it might be positive or negative, and others are free to ignore it if they wish.

I can't comment on Stan's dacs as I've never owned one. The language used in the critique did remind me a lot of what I've thought with Sabre dacs I've owned however. Especially the loudness button comment. I did wonder if sabre had built some form of DSP into their chips as the sound seemed boosted in some way, both in terms of frequency response and soundstage/width. I assume technically minded people would pick it up very quickly with their measuring equipment so I must be wrong (unless it can be done in such a way that doesn't show up). But that's still how they sound to me.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

Hi, Lawrence.

Thank you for your comment.
If it sounds different, it measures different. :)

What bothered me the most was Stan didn't even spend one minute trying to convince me that I should give it a try for a few days, or teaching me how to do the "burn in" thing, or answering my (somehow) technical questions/doubts, or even asking what the rest of the system was, type of music, room, etc., or even figuring out if this unit was not good. He even didn't answer my email regarding the SEG being delivered back to him. He just refunded the money (less the shipping costs) without any word. To me, it just screams "don't make waves, return the SEG you'll get a refund and I'll sell it to someone else". Marketing.

If I'd liked the SEG, I would've write a positive review, as good as I could, about it.
I didn't, so I guess I'm free to right my negative opinion also.

In the end, even having spend €46 in shipping costs, this was a good experience for me, because I reinforced my feelings about what I want and what I don't want/like in my system.

Cheers,
Luis

[AJSki2fly]

Hi, Lawrence.

Thank you for your comment.
If it sounds different, it measures different. :)

What bothered me the most was Stan didn't even spend one minute trying to convince me that I should give it a try for a few days, or teaching me how to do the "burn in" thing, or answering my (somehow) technical questions/doubts, or even asking what the rest of the system was, type of music, room, etc., or even figuring out if this unit was not good. He even didn't answer my email regarding the SEG being delivered back to him. He just refunded the money (less the shipping costs) without any word. To me, it just screams "don't make waves, return the SEG you'll get a refund and I'll sell it to someone else". Marketing.

If I'd liked the SEG, I would've write a positive review, as good as I could, about it.
I didn't, so I guess I'm free to right my negative opinion also.

In the end, even having spend €46 in shipping costs, this was a good experience for me, because I reinforced my feelings about what I want and what I don't want/like in my system.

Cheers,
Luis

Hi Luis,

Having spoken with Stan in the past re the Caiman Seg, this is my take on what you say.

If I recall correctly Stan has worked in the music industry for many years in areas striving for better sound quality. I had quite an interesting and informative discussion with him about digital music quality, data file encoding/decoding and replay issues, impact of data resolution(bit and sampling rate), this discussion included CD’s. In simple terms there are so many variables in the digital chain from the original recording through manufacture and then onto end user decoding, on god knows what equipment, that exact replication of the original analog is very unlikely.

This may seem like a broad statement but if you think it through it makes sense, it is no different in the analog world you’ve only go to have one element not right and it will affect the sound re-produced.

So if you introduce a new piece of equipment into a chain it may work well or it may not, even if that equipment is being as accurate as it can be in this process, in this case decoding a digital stream to analog. This makes determining why it works well say in my setup well and why not in yours quite a difficult task to say the least.

Stan made it very clear that I should try the Caiman out and if it did not give me the result I liked in my system then then he would refund me with no quibble, which I think is what he has done in your case. So I suspect Stan takes the view, give the customer his/her money back if they don’t like it and let them find a product that works for them, which is fair enough in my view. It also holds up why there are so many DAC’s out there that get reviewed on and reported on as having particular traits in the reproduction of music.

Anyway for what it’s worth that’s my view.

On the Issue of burn in time, or stabilisation of equipment this definitely exists. In certain laboratories and industries electronic equipment is never turned off except to replace it due to failure as doing so means it needs recalibration, having allowed it to get to get to a stable set of operating parameters.

If you think about it electrical components are electrical mechanical devices at a low level. Whether it’s a valve, transistor or a micro circuit they still all have one think in common, electrical current acting and influenced by the physical elements it it is flowing through. Every component is designed to work within a tolerance depending on a variety of criteria, and are interdependent on each other in a circuit, so at some point a circuit will become efficient and stable as it was designed to do. We all know that the more accurate and exacting the tolerances of each component then the more accurate the end result will be. Some components are actually have burn in times specified before they will work within the defined tolerances that the designer will be working to, so burn in time becomes a necessity not a a necessity.

From my experience with several pieces of hifi equipment over many years, amps, speakers and even CD players and a DAC, after period of time performance has definitely improved(and in several cases was advised by the manufacturer).

It would be quite interesting if we could take my CD player and SEG and put in it your system to see how it sounded and also if you heard it in mine.

Just a few thoughts

Cheers

Adrian

[Sherwood]

Hi, Lawrence.

Thank you for your comment.
If it sounds different, it measures different. :)

What bothered me the most was Stan didn't even spend one minute trying to convince me that I should give it a try for a few days, or teaching me how to do the "burn in" thing, or answering my (somehow) technical questions/doubts, or even asking what the rest of the system was, type of music, room, etc., or even figuring out if this unit was not good. He even didn't answer my email regarding the SEG being delivered back to him. He just refunded the money (less the shipping costs) without any word. To me, it just screams "don't make waves, return the SEG you'll get a refund and I'll sell it to someone else". Marketing.

If I'd liked the SEG, I would've write a positive review, as good as I could, about it.
I didn't, so I guess I'm free to right my negative opinion also.

In the end, even having spend €46 in shipping costs, this was a good experience for me, because I reinforced my feelings about what I want and what I don't want/like in my system.

Cheers,
Luis

Your expectations of a vendor seem to me to be completely unrealistic. Stan offers an unconditional returns option to unhappy purchasers. You have benefitted from this and yet to expect him to devote (his unpaid) time to talk you out of returning the unit. Do you think that if you had bought a DAC from a big international company that they would behave any differently. I doubt if Stan makes much from each unit he sells and certainly not from the upgrades he offers which seem to me to be priced on a parts only basis.

You were unhappy with the unit which is fine: if you didn't like it that is your personal choice, though by your own admission you spent very little time listening to the unit. I am guessing that you didn't spend any time experimenting with the different sound profiles. You seem to be suggesting that there is a conspiracy of silence regarding reviews of the SEG. On what evidence do you make this claim and do you have any sense of how commercially damaging this might be to a small business.

[pitadavespa]

Hi Luis,

Having spoken with Stan in the past re the Caiman Seg, this is my take on what you say.

If I recall correctly Stan has worked in the music industry for many years in areas striving for better sound quality. I had quite an interesting and informative discussion with him about digital music quality, data file encoding/decoding and replay issues, impact of data resolution(bit and sampling rate), this discussion included CD’s. In simple terms there are so many variables in the digital chain from the original recording through manufacture and then onto end user decoding, on god knows what equipment, that exact replication of the original analog is very unlikely.

This may seem like a broad statement but if you think it through it makes sense, it is no different in the analog world you’ve only go to have one element not right and it will affect the sound re-produced.

So if you introduce a new piece of equipment into a chain it may work well or it may not, even if that equipment is being as accurate as it can be in this process, in this case decoding a digital stream to analog. This makes determining why it works well say in my setup well and why not in yours quite a difficult task to say the least.

Stan made it very clear that I should try the Caiman out and if it did not give me the result I liked in my system then then he would refund me with no quibble, which I think is what he has done in your case. So I suspect Stan takes the view, give the customer his/her money back if they don’t like it and let them find a product that works for them, which is fair enough in my view. It also holds up why there are so many DAC’s out there that get reviewed on and reported on as having particular traits in the reproduction of music.

Anyway for what it’s worth that’s my view.

On the Issue of burn in time, or stabilisation of equipment this definitely exists. In certain laboratories and industries electronic equipment is never turned off except to replace it due to failure as doing so means it needs recalibration, having allowed it to get to get to a stable set of operating parameters.

If you think about it electrical components are electrical mechanical devices at a low level. Whether it’s a valve, transistor or a micro circuit they still all have one think in common, electrical current acting and influenced by the physical elements it it is flowing through. Every component is designed to work within a tolerance depending on a variety of criteria, and are interdependent on each other in a circuit, so at some point a circuit will become efficient and stable as it was designed to do. We all know that the more accurate and exacting the tolerances of each component then the more accurate the end result will be. Some components are actually have burn in times specified before they will work within the defined tolerances that the designer will be working to, so burn in time becomes a necessity not a a necessity.

From my experience with several pieces of hifi equipment over many years, amps, speakers and even CD players and a DAC, after period of time performance has definitely improved(and in several cases was advised by the manufacturer).

It would be quite interesting if we could take my CD player and SEG and put in it your system to see how it sounded and also if you heard it in mine.

Just a few thoughts

Cheers

Adrian

Hi, Adrian.

Obviously, I agree with you when you say that one less good equipment (digital or analogue) may have a negative impact on the overall performance of the system. I say "may", because in one system/room it may exagerate some bad things, but on other system/room it may do otherwise, compensating/filtering some bad things.
But that, I believe, is because something was already "wrong", or less well, before. Synergy is important, because nothing is perfect.

To me, burn in and stabilization are different things.
I agree with you regarding stabilization, mainly because every equipment needs some time, depending on the ambiance temperature, to get to it's normal (desired?) working temperature. And temperature influences materials and makes them contract or expand. That's why, to me, very demanding and accurate lab equipment may need re-calibration if turned off for some time (I may be wrong).
A DAC, CD player, tuner, amp, all get to is normal running temperature in less than an hour, so I can't imagine why they would need 50 hours to give it's best. But, like I said previously, it must be so easy to demonstrate if I'm right or wrong, that it would be excellent if someone, with the necessary gear, made some tests to show us (again, I may be wrong).

What do manufacturers advise regarding burn in? (please exclude, for obviously reasons, speakers, etc.)
"Some people say it sounded better after X hours burning in"
or
"This equipment needs X hours burning in before it works as it should"?

Yes, it would be nice to make some swaps and tests, but I'm a bit far from you... :)
Every equipment sounds different, of course, but I expect very good electronics to be as accurate and neutral as possible and, so, with only mild differences in sound presentation (caracter?) between them.
Speakers, on the other way, are different. They will interact with the room and everything around them, making them somehow less predictable.

How does your Meridian 508 CD compares with tour SEG, for instance?


Thanks,
Luis

[struth]

I never used to be much on burn in with ss equipment, but i have found my new quad vena2 to be exhibiting this phenomenon.
Reason i know is i wasnt overly in love with the dac section, good as it was i felt my xs dac was a fair bit superior, and thus although connected and no doubt powered up when amp has been in use, ive not been listening that way.
When i went back for a listen recently i found it had improved a fair bit on its new state.

So i will see how it goes in a few months. Main system isnt on as much as my headphone rig, so it can take a fair period of time for me to put the hrs in.

As for stan,s guarantees and service, his are as good as any and better than most, and especially impressive considering the fairly low cost of his equipment .

[pitadavespa]

Your expectations of a vendor seem to me to be completely unrealistic. Stan offers an unconditional returns option to unhappy purchasers. You have benefitted from this and yet to expect him to devote (his unpaid) time to talk you out of returning the unit. Do you think that if you had bought a DAC from a big international company that they would behave any differently. I doubt if Stan makes much from each unit he sells and certainly not from the upgrades he offers which seem to me to be priced on a parts only basis.

You were unhappy with the unit which is fine: if you didn't like it that is your personal choice, though by your own admission you spent very little time listening to the unit. I am guessing that you didn't spend any time experimenting with the different sound profiles. You seem to be suggesting that there is a conspiracy of silence regarding reviews of the SEG. On what evidence do you make this claim and do you have any sense of how commercially damaging this might be to a small business.

Hi, Geoff.

Again (and I already talked about Stan and his DAC more than I'd like me to), I didn't expect him to devote time to me, but I confess I'd like him to have defended his product or, at least, tried to understand what could be wrong.
Like I said, I would have posted a very positive review of my experience if it was positive. So, why not give my opinion just because it's negative?

I'm not trying to do any harm to Stan's business. In fact, I have read hundreds of great positive reviews about his DACs over the years and I can't imagine why my opinion, when it's just that, when no one knows me or my system, would do him any harm. He has hundreds (or maybe thousands) of happy customers! I'm just one!
Also, because of those hundreds of good/excellent experiences you guys have with his products, I decided to buy one, in order to upgrade my system. It didn't work out for me and I payed for it, but I'm not saying you guys shouldn't have write those positive reviews because you are doing good to his business and ended up making me spend my money, am I?
In the end, this is a forum and we discuss ideas, hopping we all learn something, right?

I hope I made my point, although sometimes is a bit difficult because English is not my main language.
But I hope I was clear enough.


Regards,
Luis

[Sherwood]

Hi, Geoff.

Again (and I already talked about Stan and his DAC more than I'd like me to), I didn't expect him to devote time to me, but I confess I'd like him to have defended his product or, at least, tried to understand what could be wrong.
Like I said, I would have posted a very positive review of my experience if it was positive. So, why not give my opinion just because it's negative?

I'm not trying to do any harm to Stan's business. In fact, I have read hundreds of great positive reviews about his DACs over the years and I can't imagine why my opinion, when it's just that, when no one knows me or my system, would do him any harm. He has hundreds (or maybe thousands) of happy customers! I'm just one!
Also, because of those hundreds of good/excellent experiences you guys have with his products, I decided to buy one, in order to upgrade my system. It didn't work out for me and I payed for it, but I'm not saying you guys shouldn't have write those positive reviews because you are doing good to his business and ended up making me spend my money, am I?
In the end, this is a forum and we discuss ideas, hopping we all learn something, right?

I hope I made my point, although sometimes is a bit difficult because English is not my main language.
But I hope I was clear enough.


Regards,
Luis

Did you try the different sound signatures in your brief trial of the unit?

[pitadavespa]

I never used to be much on burn in with ss equipment, but i have found my new quad vena2 to be exhibiting this phenomenon.
Reason i know is i wasnt overly in love with the dac section, good as it was i felt my xs dac was a fair bit superior, and thus although connected and no doubt powered up when amp has been in use, ive not been listening that way.
When i went back for a listen recently i found it had improved a fair bit on its new state.

So i will see how it goes in a few months. Main system isnt on as much as my headphone rig, so it can take a fair period of time for me to put the hrs in.

As for stan,s guarantees and service, his are as good as any and better than most, and especially impressive considering the fairly low cost of his equipment .

Hi, Grant.

You may be right.
But I believe our mood/brain/ears and listening conditions are more influential than all the rest. Even a good glass of wine can make the difference. :)

Regarding Stan, I wish him the best and won't talk more about him or his business.


Cheers,
L

[pitadavespa]

Did you try the different sound signatures in your brief trial of the unit?

Sorry, forgot to mention that.
Yes, I tried them.
I believe I preferred mode 1 for CD and was divided between mode 1 and mode 2 for the Raspi (which has a coax out board), but my issues with it were not to be solved by those different modes. I haven't spend many time switching between them, though...

Thanks,
L

[struth]

Hi, Grant.

You may be right.
But I believe our mood/brain/ears and listening conditions are more influential than all the rest. Even a good glass of wine can make the difference. :)

Regarding Stan, I wish him the best and won't talk more about him or his business.


Cheers,
L

indeed, i do believe our brain gets used to a different sound eventually and you can think an inferior sound is better than it is to point that your ex fav when put back in, initially sounds worse, but after time sounds better again. Much depends on how you listen tho.

[pitadavespa]

indeed, i do believe our brain gets used to a different sound eventually and you can think an inferior sound is better than it is to point that your ex fav when put back in, initially sounds worse, but after time sounds better again. Much depends on how you listen tho.

I believe we almost instantly know when something sounds better (and better is not just more impressive).
It's easy to move to better and harder to move to worst. But with time and will, our brain get's used to it, I guess.

How many of you feel your system sounds better after you just cleaned the dust behind it? :)

[struth]

cleaned?;):mental:

[pitadavespa]

:D

[AJSki2fly]

Hi, Adrian.

A DAC, CD player, tuner, amp, all get to is normal running temperature in less than an hour, so I can't imagine why they would need 50 hours to give it's best. But, like I said previously, it must be so easy to demonstrate if I'm right or wrong, that it would be excellent if someone, with the necessary gear, made some tests to show us (again, I may be wrong).

What do manufacturers advise regarding burn in? (please exclude, for obviously reasons, speakers, etc.)
"Some people say it sounded better after X hours burning in"
or
"This equipment needs X hours burning in before it works as it should"?

Yes, it would be nice to make some swaps and tests, but I'm a bit far from you... :)
Every equipment sounds different, of course, but I expect very good electronics to be as accurate and neutral as possible and, so, with only mild differences in sound presentation (caracter?) between them.
Speakers, on the other way, are different. They will interact with the room and everything around them, making them somehow less predictable.

How does your Meridian 508 CD compares with tour SEG, for instance?


Thanks,
Luis

Personally from new I think it depends on the components and design constraints of the circuit employed. What I mean by that is I know some components actually specify and burn in and stabilisation period which can be several hours. I presume this is because until certain electrical mechanical usage has taken place they don't get to within their defined operating parameters. My Meridian 508 I seem to remember it was highlighted at the time by the dealer that optimum performance would not be reached until after 30-40 hours of use. Interestingly I cannot find a reference to it in Meridian docs. You might find this and interesting read https://donaldscarinci.com/the-truth-about-burn-in-for-audio-components/

I suspect, although I am not a qualified electronics boffin, that more modern amplifiers and equipment using modern components need very little burn in comparison to say a Valve or Transistor amp, I have personally experience improvement in both after several hours of of being on, and not necessarily being listened to. I think this is modern component are probably more accurate in their working parameters from switch on, but I could be wrong.

By the way I used to work at the Wolfson Sound and Vibration Lab many years ago using some very expensive bruel & kjaer gear, sound pressure level equipment, microphones, sweep generators, reel to reel tape unit etc. Quite a lot of it we had to set up and leave on for several ours to stabilise, run base line test to ensure it was all good and then run tests.

Today I received delivery of a new single ended 300B amp, and fully expected it to not perform great straight out the box, but I have to say it did pretty well, either my excitement got the better off me or it is better than my other amp anyway. I will see if it improves with time.

In answer to your question about the Meridian 508 as stand alone compared with using is as a transport with the Caiman SEG, then the answer is that they are definitely different. I have it plugged up for both and can just flip between the two whilst playing the same CD. IMO opinion there is greater detail and clarity with the Caiman SEG. However the pure 508 sound is interestingly slightly warmer possibly because I believe Meridian wen to great lengths to get away from the "digital" sound that many people complained about in the 80's and early 90's. Is one better than another, well that depends, what I have noticed is if I select what I have always considered be a not particularly good CD from the 80's(due to master to digital transcription issues back then) and use the 508/SEG combo it can highlight it inadequacies, however played through the pure 508 it can sound more acceptable. I also have an old Awia CD player from the same era and the same CD will just sound poor, ie harsh and not very digital.

I don't think that there is a straight answer to all of this, it will really depend on the equipment.

Cheers

Adrian

[Tmltech]

Chaps thank you all for your input , it's great. Well I'm now approx 30 hours in but want to reserve any judgement for another couple if days. Whilst some may not believe in burn in, let's call it settling in. I did not listen to the sound during this period of settling in . What I can tell you at present imo is this hands down is totally in a different league to the Rega DAC R so far and also the Schiit Bifrost. As I mainly listen to Jazz/Folk and Classical I bought this on the reviews here. I'll get back to you probably after the weekend with ny review and whether it stays or goes back. Thanks

[Lawrence001]

Any news?

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[Tmltech]

Apologies for delay in getting back, unfortunately managed to pick up a flu type virus which messed with my hearing etc. Well the good news is "Its a Keeper"
Before we start my musical preferences are for Jazz/ Folk and Classical music so can only really comment using the DAC with these genres of music

My main reason for the purchase is we are moving to a new house and I won’t have room for full size separates, so over the last year or so have been downsizing size of boxes. They will need to fit into my TV cabinet. So far, I have purchased a Rega Apollo CD Player, Rega Brio and a Yamaha WXC 50 pre-amp, Yamaha Sub-Woofer YST 050. I also wanted to connect TV to the DAC through optical connector. I have tried a few DACs over the past months. I listen a lot on headphones rather than speakers

So, onto the Caimen with Dorado PSU. All come very neatly packaged even though I did collect from Stan. I also purchased a COAX and two off Digital Cables.

Installation was relatively easy, I used my existing Klotz AC110 interconnects that were originally being used from CD player to Amp and used these on outlet from Caimen to Amp. I then removed the interconnects from Yamaha WXC 50 to amp then connected the Yamaha WXC with one of the supplied Digital cable. I then used the supplied coax cable to connect from the Rega Apollo to the Caimen. The TV will be connected later, and I have not tried this so far. The supplied PSU was connected to my mains block and then to Dorado and the supplied lead from Dorado to Caimen was connected.

As per instructions you need to “charge” the Dorado in my case it only took about two minuets for the LED to go from Red to Blue. Then turn on the Caimen which will in turn then light up. I then set up CD player to play on repeat with my headphones connected to my amp , I did this initially for around 24 hours during which time I did not bother to listen to any music.

After this listening trials begun, initially I was a little disappointed as it to my ears it sounded no different to my system using CD without a DAC, however over the coming hours things changed significantly, the soundstage and clarity of individual instruments improved, particularly the sound of cymbals and saxophones which had a startingly realistic sound to them compared to before. Piano notes you could actually hear the pianist’s fingers touching the keyboards. Tried some female vocals (Diana Krall) and it was like she was in the room in front of me with instruments placed behind her. You could even hear her breathing as she took breaths between words. Violins seem to have come more alive and bass instruments seem more realistic. The biggest improvement so far shown is whilst streaming using my Yamaha WXC 50 with everything improved overall. Although the DAC in the Yamaha is quite good the Caimen significantly improved upon it giving it a more “analogue” sound. In fact the whole presentation sound quite analogue on both CD and Streaming and I tried playing the same record on my turntable and my CD and had difficulty telling them apart and so did others.

I have not had the time to try the different settings yet but have set LEDs to low.

There are a few dislikes though but are relatively minor (but irritating)

The Blue LED on the Dorado, it’s so bright and so bloody annoying. Fixed with some black insulation tape over it !!!!

On/Off switch on Caimen oriented wrong way (up for on, down for off) Push button might be better option

Annoying noise when changing inputs

Lastly the aesthetics, the Caimen is “industrial” looking and in my mind surely it would be better to incorporate the Dorado into the same case.

[AJSki2fly]

So it sounds like it’s good for you?

[Hypnotist]

Glad your up and running and hearing the benefit of your new equipment, mine was the same after 30+ hours of burn in.

[Pepperamip]

A burn-in convert, maybe those printouts do change ;) i got the impression ypu semt it back but it seems keeping hold has paid off for you. Glad to hear it.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Tmltech]

All Im going to say is the Caimen keeps giving, now some weeks and quality is better than ever on my (budget) system particularly on headphones which I use a majority of the time. There was mention that an upgrade chip is availble from Stanley for Art of Sound members only, do any of you have any experience of this and what did it bring you please?

[Leeken]

Yeah I’ve had mine done,to me it definitely sounds better,drums are more lifelike,and acoustic guitars particularly too,the real amazing change is how much better Spotify through a cca/Ethernet is sounding.

[Tmltech]

Just as a quick update, been using the Caiman, Dorado and psu for some weeks now 200+ hours and the sound on headphones has got even better particularly streaming through my Yamaha WXD 50 pre amp. My Rega Apollo is sounding pretty good as well however when I get time I'll install my Cambridge CXC which maybe better. Thinking of a speaker change as moving to a smaller house and going back to stand mounts for the time being