Shock news: What Hifi say old amps are as good as new ones

[Lawrence001]

What I don't understand is, if each year they tell us the new models are a step up from the ones last year and we need to sell up and get the latest model, how can an amp from 30 years ago match a recent amp at around the same level?? The question is rhetorical by the way, I think I can work out why...

https://www.whathifi.com/features/old-amplifier-vs-new-amplifier-which-is-better


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[Jimbo]

Spondoolies!

[Beobloke]

A good amplifier (or any component) is a good amplifier, regardless of age. Something good doesn’t automatically become bad overnight just because it has been superseded by something better.

[Macca]

A good amplifier (or any component) is a good amplifier, regardless of age. Something good doesn’t automatically become bad overnight just because it has been superseded by something better.

They never say bad though. It's 'Off the pace', 'Slightly veiled' or 'Not quite at the same level' if you want to steer someone away from a discontinued model and onto the brand new one.

[Pieoftheday]

I've been persuaded by the latest thing is best and been disappointed, an old technics receiver and a Sony tafb940r are still my fave amps,budget end but just seemed to get it right:)

[Barry]

Agreed! Every component review, especially those aimed at the "high end", claim significant improvement to such an extent that one wonders how it is possible to even listen to a system that has been assembled using components that are only five years old or less.

It's all nonsense of course; hi-fi mags are there to sing the praise of those items of gear that are advertised in the magazine.

As Adam has said "a good amplifier is a good amplifier". It is only the use of modern components, having higher specification and tighter tolerance that has made a small difference; the actual circuit topology largely remains unchanged.

The largest improvement, in my view, has been with electromechanical transducers - cartridges and loudspeakers. (Not that has stopped me using cartridges and speakers, the design of which are 50 years old!)

[STD305M]

I have always said that vintage electronics are as good as todays.
Nelson Pass, John Curl, Krell, Leak and Tannoy to name but a few and all are incredibly difficult to beat without spending silly money.

Quality built equipment is just that regardless of when it was produced!!!!

Money is the name of the game and how much they can screw out of you.

Steve...

[Jac Hawk]

100% agree with everything already said, there is a business behind the whole industry and that business is there to do 1 thing MAKE MONEY, advertising is there to persuade you that you NEED something else, something more, something much better than you already have, I remember reading hifi mags in the past, they loved to prove their point with a graph or readout from some ultra sensitive analyser, the actual difference was inaudible but the graph showed that the new was better than the old and that's all you needed to justify it to yourself.

I've grown up since then, trust my ears and take all that bullshit with a pinch of salt.

[montesquieu]

I have an old Cyrus One out in the garage. Was always an appealing old thing. Need to put it up against a visiting LFD Zero LE Mk3 integrated in the study system ... though I guess that's also pretty vintage.

[tapid]

Could say the same for records as well I suppose. Like many people I own some classical vinyl from 60 s 70 s of superb quality, and yet many say modern records can sound
a bit inferior by comparison. Why ?

[montesquieu]

Could say the same for records as well I suppose. Like many people I own some classical vinyl from 60 s 70 s of superb quality, and yet many say modern records can sound
a bit inferior by comparison. Why ?

Well it's certainly true that records in the 50s and 60s were recorded on superior vinyl (thicker, better quality) as opposed to stuff in the 80s a lot of which was done on thin rubbishy vinyl, some of it even recycled. (Recycled vinyl is of course much more of a 'thing' today and no more welcome that it was in the 80s).

More specifically there was certainly a period in the 00s through to relativey recently where vinyl mastering skills (and even vinyl mastering equipment) were in very short supply which also led to quality issues.

[Spectral Morn]

What I don't understand is, if each year they tell us the new models are a step up from the ones last year and we need to sell up and get the latest model, how can an amp from 30 years ago match a recent amp at around the same level?? The question is rhetorical by the way, I think I can work out why...

https://www.whathifi.com/features/old-amplifier-vs-new-amplifier-which-is-better


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No they say that an old Cyrus amp has qualities the new doesn't. That is a completely different thing to a broad statement that, all old amps sound better than new designs.

Being very frank I would not have the gift of a vintage cyrus one or two, even with the power supply option. Never liked the presentation.

[walpurgis]

Being very frank I would not have the gift of a vintage cyrus one or two, even with the power supply option. Never liked the presentation.

I'd pass on that too.

Some old amps are/were dire. But there again the same applies to some newer examples no doubt.

[montesquieu]

Being very frank I would not have the gift of a vintage cyrus one or two, even with the power supply option. Never liked the presentation.

Not sure either the One or the Two had external PSU as an option - well before all that sort of frippery.

I must say I always liked their musicality, and they weren't short of welly either considering the market they were playing in.

[Spectral Morn]

Not sure either the One or the Two had external PSU as an option - well before all that sort of frippery.

I must say I always liked their musicality, and they weren't short of welly either considering the market they were playing in.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/YySyboMSjbCfppWkptVMBW-650-80.jpg

Blue socket is for the PSX

I worked in a shop, back in the day, that sold these. They had a Power supply upgrade option. I never liked the amps, speakers, some were good, CDP not bad. The earlier Mission amps didn't have a power supply upgrade option.

[montesquieu]

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/YySyboMSjbCfppWkptVMBW-650-80.jpg

Blue socket is for the PSX

I worked in a shop, back in the day, that sold these. They had a Power supply upgrade option. I never liked the amps, speakers, some were good, CDP not bad. The earlier Mission amps didn't have a power supply upgrade option.

Never seen that on mine! Need to dig it out and look.

[southall-1998_mk2]

I briefly had a Cyrus One going back a couple years ago. Had a very open sounding presentation with good timing. Sounded a bit like a Nait 1, but better!

S.

[Lawrence001]

Never seen that on mine! Need to dig it out and look.The article said it was only an option on the Two. It's always possible some early Twos didn't have it and they introduced the PSX later.

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[Lawrence001]

No they say that an old Cyrus amp has qualities the new doesn't. That is a completely different thing to a broad statement that, all old amps sound better than new designs.

Being very frank I would not have the gift of a vintage cyrus one or two, even with the power supply option. Never liked the presentation.I've always thought the What HIFi crew had a different taste in sound to me, as they have often rated stuff that would give me an earache. It's also possible they have a well damped/near anechoic listening room unlike mine which despite carpets seems to get shouty with some gear.

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[Pigmy Pony]

I bought a Cyrus 1 when it first came out, I seem to remember it not being better soundwise than the Rotel RA-712 it replaced, I probably just wanted to keep up with the 'latest thing'. It cost £149. The finish on the volume and selector knobs was terrible, and the paint rubbed off them after a few months. Definitely NO provision for power supply.

Bought it Friday tea time from Norman Audio in Preston, and when I got it home, no mains lead! Went back to the shop next morning, had a standing argument with Norman in the middle of the shop, he insisted the lead was there. I was ready to concede defeat, and cast my eyes to the floor, and there was the lead, on the floor between us like it was refereeing our fight. Norman's face remained red, but now out of embarrassment.

Happy for the Cyrus 1 to stay in the past, but would love to put that Rotel into a 'vintage' system.

[AJSki2fly]

Well in my opinion there is good and not so good equipment through out the evolution of "HiFi", some pushes the boundaries and is inevitably expensive at the time it is released and others builds on the past. Generally VFM has improved over the years, hoverer in some areas the digital evolution as it has touched the hifi arena has allowed manufacturers to produce equipment that has had lots of bells and whistles but not a lot of substance or necessarily a good sound quality. Having said that I if you take around £100-150 buy Raspberry Pi and DAC, subscribe to a good streaming service and plug it into a good amp/speaker combo you can get a superb result. Something that was way out of the reach of many 10 years ago.

So back to the thread are old as good or better than new. IMO the answer is yes and no, there is definitely gear out there (in the same costs band taking inflation into account) new that is better and conversely there is older equipment that outshines new offerings. It just know which are best, and then the key when using older gear is to know and understand is component life expectancy.

As an example, if you purchased a 20 year old Meridian 557 power amp, which are superb, the question is how long could you expect it to continue to work and give good results? The answer depends on how many miles it has done like a car (hours of use), secondly some of the components used may naturally degrade with time alone, like certain types of capacitors. In the case of the Meridian 557 they are pretty robust beasts, but one of the key things that can degrade and need replacing is the main power capacitors, not the end of the world as a repair is about £250, the other is the power transformer although I have only heard of a couple failing (this would be a biggish repair bill). You can pick up one of these beasties for £700-800 and if you add in the £200 for caps at some point we'll say a £1000 outlay. The 557 was about £2.5K when last sold, so taking into account inflation the equivalent would be about £5-6K today for the same musical quality. So VFM in my view is the 2nd hand 557 if you are in the market for something like this, I doubt £5-6K on a new power amp of this type would get much improvement in performance although I sure quite a few manufacturers would like to tell you otherwise.

So to sum up there is some excellent moderately priced older hifi gear out there that is certainly as good or better than new, its just knowing which are good and reliable that matters.

[Spectral Morn]

The article said it was only an option on the Two. It's always possible some early Twos didn't have it and they introduced the PSX later.

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I think you are right, it was the Two only. This was back in the late 80s so I had forgotten that. Long time ago.

[Spectral Morn]

I bought a Cyrus 1 when it first came out, I seem to remember it not being better soundwise than the Rotel RA-712 it replaced, I probably just wanted to keep up with the 'latest thing'. It cost £149. The finish on the volume and selector knobs was terrible, and the paint rubbed off them after a few months. Definitely NO provision for power supply.

Bought it Friday tea time from Norman Audio in Preston, and when I got it home, no mains lead! Went back to the shop next morning, had a standing argument with Norman in the middle of the shop, he insisted the lead was there. I was ready to concede defeat, and cast my eyes to the floor, and there was the lead, on the floor between us like it was refereeing our fight. Norman's face remained red, but now out of embarrassment.

Happy for the Cyrus 1 to stay in the past, but would love to put that Rotel into a 'vintage' system.

The finish was poor, the case covering scuffed and wore off. I also recall a period of Cyrus not being very reliable, but its too long ago for me to remember what that was exactly. I have a vague thought it had to do with the volume control.

[Beobloke]

The finish was poor, the case covering scuffed and wore off. I also recall a period of Cyrus not being very reliable, but its too long ago for me to remember what that was exactly. I have a vague thought it had to do with the volume control.

The only common fault I know of in the Cyrus amps of that era is the vertically oriented phono sockets parting company with the PCB due to over-zealous plugging-in or the use of overly tight phono plugs.

I’ve had more than a few on my workbench with a channel down on one or more inputs due to this.

[Pigmy Pony]

I had my Cyrus 1 for about 8 years, during which it had one fault - something called a 'dry joint' which as I remember was a very cheap repair. No other issues.

[hifinutt]

the cyrus oneHd was quite impressive yesterday at bristol , apart from not having a remote yet it sounded excellent ,

[oldius]

My experience is that hifi amplifiers and speakers have not really improved but prices have rocketed. That means that, unfortunately for the industry, the value is really in the used .market.

[Lawrence001]

Is that mainly because of higher manufacturer margins, distributor/dealer margins, or input costs?

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[Macca]

20 years ago the only way to buy used kit was at a dealers, from classifieds in magazines or out of the local paper or Loot (remember Loot?)

Now you have eBay and forums (and 20 more years worth of kit on the market) and you can find and buy almost anything that takes your fancy without much effort.

So the middle market for new hi-fi has reduced massively and all you have now is the budget stuff and the 'high end.' And you can't price your high end kit too low as the market for that will not take it seriously 'It only costs 5 grand, how can it be any good?'

[Spectral Morn]

The only common fault I know of in the Cyrus amps of that era is the vertically oriented phono sockets parting company with the PCB due to over-zealous plugging-in or the use of overly tight phono plugs.

I’ve had more than a few on my workbench with a channel down on one or more inputs due to this.

Yes I recall that, but in my mind that isnt what I was recalling. Its a long time ago but had something to do with the way the shaft connected inside the amp.

[oldius]

In a declining market, the only way to protect profit is by an increasing margin. The price being charged in the high end is now well out of the reach of all but the very wealthy. Budget equipment is as good as it has always been but the middle market is almost non-existant.

The industry has to find a way of attracting more young people to have an interest. The headphone market has achieved it so it is possible but the attendee photographs from the Bristol show display exactly what the problem is: the market is middle aged and elderly males which means that eventually, there is no market whatsoever.

[Macca]

In a declining market, the only way to protect profit is by an increasing margin. The price being charged in the high end is now well out of the reach of all but the very wealthy. Budget equipment is as good as it has always been but the middle market is almost non-existant.

The industry has to find a way of attracting more young people to have an interest. The headphone market has achieved it so it is possible but the attendee photographs from the Bristol show display exactly what the problem is: the market is middle aged and elderly males which means that eventually, there is no market whatsoever.

But today's impoverished youngsters are tomorrow's middle aged and elderly males with big disposable incomes. All those old boys you saw at the Penta 30 years ago have long since gone to the great dem room in the sky but if you go to a show now there are still loads of them knocking about. 30 years ago they were the youngsters with no money.

[Pigmy Pony]

In a declining market, the only way to protect profit is by an increasing margin. The price being charged in the high end is now well out of the reach of all but the very wealthy. Budget equipment is as good as it has always been but the middle market is almost non-existant.

The industry has to find a way of attracting more young people to have an interest. The headphone market has achieved it so it is possible but the attendee photographs from the Bristol show display exactly what the problem is: the market is middle aged and elderly males which means that eventually, there is no market whatsoever.

I wouldn't say there is going to be no market, although it may change a fair bit.

Accommodation for most young people isn't exactly 'system friendly' - either they still live at home with only a poky bedroom, or live in a house share or a small flat, even if they manage to buy their own place, these 'starter' homes can be unbelievably tiny. My daughter and her fiancé bought their first house a couple of years ago, and when I look at the living room, I can't see any way my set up could fit in there.

So most just buy hi fi 'jewellery' - Bluetooth speakers, soundbars, headphones, etc.

Of course when they get older things may well change, mortgage paid off, kids flown the nest, maybe early retirement. What to do, what to do... maybe buy a motorhome, maybe a Harley, or maybe a kick-ass sound system. If we plant the seeds with them early on as to how much of a difference a good quality system can make, perhaps the thought, although buried in their subconscious, can emerge later, when they find themselves with some spare pound notes.

Of course I may be completely wrong, but I'll be long gone by then so you won't be able to say to me 'I told you so'.

[spendorman]

Talking of old amps, I have a Williamson, It's probably the best sounding amplifier that I've got. It's mono of course.

I was offered a second one decades ago, stupidly, I refused it.

Williamson info

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_amplifier

http://www.sowter.co.uk/pdf/Williamson%20Amplifier.pdf

[oldius]

When I was a teenager, hifi was an aspiration in a way that it isn't now. That's why, unless the hifi industry makes it happen, there will be little market to speak of by the time today's teenagers are in middle age.

[Macca]

When I was a teenager, hifi was an aspiration in a way that it isn't now. That's why, unless the hifi industry makes it happen, there will be little market to speak of by the time today's teenagers are in middle age.

Was there really ever a golden age when everyone and his dog were buying separates hi-fi? When I first got in to the hobby the mags were talking about the dying market and enthusiasts dying off and not being replaced. That was 1987. And yet here we are 30 years on and there is still a hi-fi industry and there are still hi-fi enthusiasts. The mass market has moved from Sharp music centres and Alba midi-systems to iPhones and Bluetooth 'speakers but that's still there as well.

[oldius]

Was there really ever a golden age when everyone and his dog were buying separates hi-fi? When I first got in to the hobby the mags were talking about the dying market and enthusiasts dying off and not being replaced. That was 1987. And yet here we are 30 years on and there is still a hi-fi industry and there are still hi-fi enthusiasts. The mass market has moved from Sharp music centres and Alba midi-systems to iPhones and Bluetooth 'speakers but that's still there as well.I don't have access to official figures but I think it's generally accepted that the market is smaller and aging.

[Macca]

Maybe in the West but what about the East? Even if there was only a tiny niche market in China alone that is a couple of million potential punters. That market didn't exist at all 30 years ago. No doubt they mostly buy Chinese so no-one is counting them, but I don't see why not.

[walpurgis]

Was there really ever a golden age when everyone and his dog were buying separates hi-fi? When I first got in to the hobby the mags were talking about the dying market and enthusiasts dying off and not being replaced. That was 1987. And yet here we are 30 years on and there is still a hi-fi industry and there are still hi-fi enthusiasts. The mass market has moved from Sharp music centres and Alba midi-systems to iPhones and Bluetooth 'speakers but that's still there as well.

If you go back another twenty years to the sixties, most people generally had 'record players', some of which were stereo. Proper Hi-Fi was specialised and a small and expensive market. As solid state gear was making inroads by then, there was talk amongst enthusiasts of 'real' Hi-Fi being finished, so really, little was different from now.

[Lawrence001]

In a declining market, the only way to protect profit is by an increasing margin. The price being charged in the high end is now well out of the reach of all but the very wealthy. Budget equipment is as good as it has always been but the middle market is almost non-existant.

The industry has to find a way of attracting more young people to have an interest. The headphone market has achieved it so it is possible but the attendee photographs from the Bristol show display exactly what the problem is: the market is middle aged and elderly males which means that eventually, there is no market whatsoever.Ah yes that would explain it, declining volumes require bigger margins to make it worthwhile. If there were equal volumes with increasing margins, in a free market competitors would move in and hoover up the volume at a lower margin.

I also wonder if the growth of ChiFi means the medium quality/volume market is now no longer attractive to western companies, whereas the higher end still attracts the money for the cachet of high end western names.

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[Sherwood]

It's dangerous to make generalisations based upon this one review. Of course, the magazines have an interest in pleasing their advertisers and proclaiming the "new model" superior to the old. I don't see this changing and I don't think this review did that. What it did do was note that certain aspects of the older model were preferred by the reviewer compared to the newer model.

This does not surprise me at all. I often find that smaller less powerful amps sound sweeter than more powerful models, often within a single manufacturers product range.

Geoff

[spendorman]

I often find that smaller less powerful amps sound sweeter than more powerful models, often within a single manufacturers product range.

Geoff

This does not surprise me. If one looks at the typical distortion VS power graphs for class AB amps, the lowest distortion is not at very low output. So at a 'normal'
listening level, a low powered amp will be running at it's lowest part of the distortion curve, but a higher power amp would be running at a higher distortion part of the curve. I may not have explained this as well as possible.

[User211]

I bought a Cyrus Two after demoing the earlier plastic bodied Two. Had to get the new metal one as they had stopped producing the plastic version.

When it arrived I was seriously disappointed. The plastic one had sounded way more dynamic and alive. I figured all the money has gone into the chassis rather than the electronics with the newer diecast version.

Then they started Nextel coating them but that used to peel off pretty quickly.

[Macca]

Knew someone at college in the '80s with the full Mission system - Cyrus 1, Mission CD player and the 760i speakers. He spent the whole summer labouring in a brickworks to pay for it. It sounded terrible!