Croft Phono Integrated Impressions so Far

[beadlesabout]

I set up my new croft phono Integrated today.

So far I’ve only tried the phono stage input. I’m using a Nahaoka MP-200 (4mv) and my speakers are Wharfedale Denton 80th anniversary (86db sensitivity).

I’m coming from a tisbury passive into a Quad 303 and so far I’m not sure about the croft. It seems a bit dry/harsh sounding. What’s odd is that 2am on the volume is loud. It feels like there is a lot more gain than there should be given the cart and speakers I’m using.

Is this an expected result?

[graham67]

Hi, having owned quad amps and croft RIAA and also heard croft integrated, compared to a quad, the croft is going to be more forward and harder. Also IIRC the croft integrated has a valve phono output stage so gain will be on high side as the ecc83 is a high gain valve and the jj is on harder side.

I ended up substituting 3 mica NOS 5751 (sylvania I think) in my croft phono stage as they have lower gain and a less forward presentation.

Also let the croft run in before making a judgement as some components may benefit after being burned in for a few hours.

[Jimbo]

Swap the JJ Tesla valves in the phono stage for some NOS ECC83 and you can influence the sound considerably. The JJ Teslas can sound a bit raw and harsh but the amp should be run for a fair bit first from new. Folks use many different ecc83 valves in the phono stage so it may be worth looking on the net to get some ideas. I would go for NOS Tesla, Mullard, Brimar, Sylvania.

If you want to reduce gain pop a GE 5751 in the line stage.

This is what I use in my power amp

https://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=1394

[IHP]

I have a Croft 25R and partner it with a Croft 7 and sometimes a Quad 303. To my mind, the comment Graham made above is on the nail. I too find the Croft sounds a little more forward and detailed and the Quad a little more lush. I love both ! I do need to stress that I've not heard the Croft integrated though.

As always, take your time and relax into it, when we're used to one particular sound for a long time change can take some getting used to.

I've always though the 303 sounds like a pair of Quad IIs but with more whack, which is something that appeals to me very much indeed. I also perhaps might be biased, I'll admit to being a huge fan of Croft gear. This lot here put me onto it :)

[YNWaN]

I set up my new croft phono Integrated today.

So far I’ve only tried the phono stage input. I’m using a Nahaoka MP-200 (4mv) and my speakers are Wharfedale Denton 80th anniversary (86db sensitivity).

I’m coming from a tisbury passive into a Quad 303 and so far I’m not sure about the croft. It seems a bit dry/harsh sounding. What’s odd is that 2am on the volume is loud. It feels like there is a lot more gain than there should be given the cart and speakers I’m using.

Is this an expected result?

If you mean the volume, when pointing to where 2 o’clock would be, is loud then I would say, yes, so it should be! My own system would be deafeningly loud well before then and that’s using a much, much lower output cartridge (though in an entirely different setup). It’s a long time since I heard the Quad amps you have but I always found it a very ‘relaxed’ sound (the pre in particular) and most stuff will sound more upbeat.

[mikeyb]

If you mean the volume, when pointing to where 2 o’clock would be, is loud then I would say, yes, so it should be! My own system would be deafeningly loud well before then and that’s using a much, much lower output cartridge (though in an entirely different setup). It’s a long time since I heard the Quad amps you have but I always found it a very ‘relaxed’ sound (the pre in particular) and most stuff will sound more upbeat.Yip at 2 I'm heading towards live levels [emoji6]

[walpurgis]

What’s odd is that 2am on the volume is loud.

Then turn it down.

[mikeyb]

Then turn it down.Simple, yet.... Works [emoji23]

[Frazeur1]

Mark, Two O'clock on the Croft volume knobs are almost just beginning though, as it begins at Noon...It can be interesting depending on what the whole system sensitivity is. But I do love the Crofts!

[mikeyb]

Mark, Two O'clock on the Croft volume knobs are almost just beginning though, as it begins at Noon...It can be interesting depending on what the whole system sensitivity is. But I do love the Crofts!So they do, in that case 2 is a bit early [emoji6]

[YNWaN]

Mark, Two O'clock on the Croft volume knobs are almost just beginning though, as it begins at Noon...It can be interesting depending on what the whole system sensitivity is. But I do love the Crofts!

Oh, is it, I see :). So the zero point on the Croft is 12 O,clock - got ya. In that case 2 O’clock is early in terms of volume adjustment.

[beadlesabout]

Thanks to everyone who's replied. Lots of useful stuff.

It's true that midnight is 0, so 2pm is very early. It's too early for me, it takes some pleasure out of the interface between me and the amp and I'm sure it can't be helping the sound.

Very interesting to hear of experiences with tube rolling. A slippery slope I gather.

If my main aims are:

- Reduce Gain
- Reduce Sizzle / Top end harshness
- Spend less than £50 per tube on something readily available

What would you suggest?

I know the top end should be there and it's true HiFi, but it affects my tinnitus, so it's either roll it off a bit or drop the hobby. The latter not an option!

It looks like the GE JAN 5751's might be a good call for my needs?

[fiddlemaker]

Thanks to everyone who's replied. Lots of useful stuff.

It's true that midnight is 0, so 2pm is very early. It's too early for me, it takes some pleasure out of the interface between me and the amp and I'm sure it can't be helping the sound.

Very interesting to hear of experiences with tube rolling. A slippery slope I gather.

If my main aims are:

- Reduce Gain
- Reduce Sizzle / Top end harshness
- Spend less than £50 per tube on something readily available

What would you suggest?

I know the top end should be there and it's true HiFi, but it affects my tinnitus, so it's either roll it off a bit or drop the hobby. The latter not an option!

It looks like the GE JAN 5751's might be a good call for my needs?

Hi Alfie, is this amp new, or just "new to you"?

[beadlesabout]

Hi Alfie, is this amp new, or just "new to you"?

She's new to me. Previously a demo unit at HiFi Hangar and then belonged to a chap on here for a bit before selling on to me.

[fiddlemaker]

She's new to me. Previously a demo unit at HiFi Hangar and then belonged to a chap on here for a bit before selling on to me.
Just wondered whether it might be running non-original valves already?

[Haselsh1]

I have owned a Croft pre/power combo on two separate occasions since 2009 and on both of those occasions got pissed off with the ridiculous volume control or rather ridiculous volume no control. Aside from that, the level of detail that these amps reproduce is absolutely astonishing. I should add that I never found their sound harsh or anything like it but then I was using Gold Lion gold pinned valves.

[beadlesabout]

Just wondered whether it might be running non-original valves already?

I don't think so. I'll confirm this evening.

Can any of you put me in touch with a tube expert on here?

Thanks again for all the help

[mikeyb]

Email Glenn Croft it might need the gain adjusted

[fiddlemaker]

I
I don't think so. I'll confirm this evening.

Can any of you put me in touch with a tube expert on here?

Thanks again for all the help
I have a few valves you'd be welcome to try. I sent you a PM.

[beadlesabout]

Thanks Fiddlemaker, what a nice place this is! I'll find you on PM.

There are some NOS RCA 5751s on the auction site. Says "LC32" but I don't think that means anything? They're around £30 which is nice. Any thoughts from others on those? There is very little detail about them.

[fiddlemaker]

Thanks Fiddlemaker, what a nice place this is! I'll find you on PM.

There are some NOS RCA 5751s on the auction site. Says "LC32" but I don't think that means anything? They're around £30 which is nice. Any thoughts from others on those? There is very little detail about them.

Depending on what you already have in the input stage of the power amp section these might give you improved sound (NOS RCA valves are generally very good). Going to 5751 vs ECC83 to reduce gain will only give you another "o'clock" or so on the volume controls, nothing dramatic.

[beadlesabout]

Which valves are which in the Croft Phono Integrated? I know it's a passive line stage, so I am not sure which valve does what? I think I read that one is for input and two are for phono stage? Would you replace all three?

[fiddlemaker]

Which valves are which in the Croft Phono Integrated? I know it's a passive line stage, so I am not sure which valve does what? I think I read that one is for input and two are for phono stage? Would you replace all three?

looking from the front, the left and middle valves are the phono stage, the right hand one is the power section input valve.

[IHP]

It looks like the GE JAN 5751's might be a good call for my needs?

This is what I settled on. I do believe a good source of these is Langrex………

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5751-JAN-GE-NOS-VALVE-TUBE/260832811140?epid=1475612454&hash=item3cbad8d884:g:TcYAAOSwImRYPrzE:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

[fiddlemaker]

As someone else has already suggested, emailing Glenn Croft would be the best way to resolve your gain issue. I've previously experienced the "2 o' clock effect" when using a Croft preamp with a sensitivity-mismatched power amp, but it seems very strange to be having this with an integrated.
Glenn is very helpful, and if anything needs doing his costs are very reasonable.

[beadlesabout]

It looks like the GE JAN 5751's might be a good call for my needs?

This is what I settled on. I do believe a good source of these is Langrex………

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5751-JAN-GE-NOS-VALVE-TUBE/260832811140?epid=1475612454&hash=item3cbad8d884:g:TcYAAOSwImRYPrzE:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

Yes, I keep reading about these and they're a reasonable price. Langrex also sell a NOS RCA for about he same price, but i don't know which one will soften the treble the most. Hmmm.

[IHP]

Yes, I keep reading about these and they're a reasonable price. Langrex also sell a NOS RCA for about he same price, but i don't know which one will soften the treble the most. Hmmm.

My own experience with tube rolling is that madness lies there ;-). I just took a recommendation and stayed with it !

[Lawrence001]

I've seen a few ads for Croft Micro Pres with customised reduced gain for sensitive power amps. High gain may be a feature of the standard preamp design but, as was said above, should be well matched as standard on an integrated.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[beadlesabout]

Having a proper listen this evening. Either something is wrong or I don’t get on with this amp. The cymbals are so forward and splashy it’s like trollys crashing together in a supermarket car park! It’s not relaxing to listen to.

Not what I’d expected. Would you say tube rolling will be too subtle to address the sound to make it more to my liking?

Perhaps I just like the old quad sound and that’s what I should stick with.

[Lawrence001]

What valves are in there? Can you post pics?

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[fiddlemaker]

Having a proper listen this evening. Either something is wrong or I don’t get on with this amp. The cymbals are so forward and splashy it’s like trollys crashing together in a supermarket car park! It’s not relaxing to listen to.

Not what I’d expected. Would you say tube rolling will be too subtle to address the sound to make it more to my liking?

Perhaps I just like the old quad sound and that’s what I should stick with.

This doesn't sound right. I really think you should email GC. Although I haven't heard the model you have. I've been a very happy Croft owner for over 30 years, and what you describe just isn't the "house sound" at all.

[beadlesabout]

Opened the amp up just now.

These are the tubes:

25383

And this is a small piece of wire I found knocking about inside the amp:

25382

[Lawrence001]

Looks like a bit of grounding wire has come off, it's possible some elements are now floating off ground which could affect the sound negatively. If you follow the grounding wiring around from the rear terminals you might spot where it has snapped off. The more technically minded on here would know more than me about the potential effect.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

I think I've seen Edicron valves in later Crofts so nothing untoward there.

Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk

[Jimbo]

If your not absolutely sure its right send it back to Glenn and he will check it out for you.

[hifi_dave]

The description of the sound doesn't correlate with how they normally sound. It might be faulty or 'modified' by previous owners. Seems like it might have been through a few hands. If you bought it from a retailer, you should take it back to be checked.

[YNWaN]

The bit of wire looks like a bit of solder to me.

[Haselsh1]

Ah, if this amplifier has been through countless hands then anything is possible. I always found the Croft pre/power sound to be on the warm side of neutral with an astonishing amount of detail displayed. I never ran into any of the problems you have described here but as I've already said, I just couldn't get on with the almost total lack of precision on the volume control, made even worse by the units having separate L/R pots.

[Macca]

Having a proper listen this evening. Either something is wrong or I don’t get on with this amp. The cymbals are so forward and splashy it’s like trollys crashing together in a supermarket car park! It’s not relaxing to listen to.

Not what I’d expected. Would you say tube rolling will be too subtle to address the sound to make it more to my liking?

Perhaps I just like the old quad sound and that’s what I should stick with.

The Croft has comparatively high levels of harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion which are going to be audible even at low power:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/croft-acoustics-phono-integrated-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Some people like this as it can give a 'live' feel to the sound. But as you are used to very low distortion amplification I think this is what is too much for you. Changing the valves won't help. I'd move it on if I was you.