View Full Version : Any Denon 103 fans here? I have one on the way to me...
Hi folks
I took the plunge and bought Jason P's nuded 103 - should be with me any day now.
It was a bit of a punt, as I know Denon cartridges only by reputation (my last 3 cartridges have been AT-OC9 of various vintages, but the price of them has risen sharply).
Anyway, I believe the 103 in question (apart from being naked) has a threaded stabiliser attached to it, which will make fitting a bit easier. Jason has warned me to be extremely careful not to touch any of the exposed internal wires (I'll do my best, infamous hamfist that I am :)).
I'm going to be putting the 103 on a Tecnoarm and will be using my modded Lynwood MC stage.
Couple of questions:
The phono stage isn't adjustable, but was a very good match to the AT-OC9, so what are the odds it will sound good with the 103? The Denon has a slightly lower output, but I had plenty of gain with the OC9 so that shouldn't be an issue. How the loading will work out is another matter of course.
Any general tips on getting the best out of the 103 would be appreciated.
Cheers
Martin
chris@panteg
05-05-2010, 11:13
Hi Martin
Marco is your man for the 103, but as far as i know the 103 likes a high mass arm and a good SUT like the A23, loading i think is around 100 ohms but others say different .
Like i said though i am sure Marco will be happy to advise you here.
Hi folks
I took the plunge and bought Jason P's nuded 103 - should be with me any day now.
It was a bit of a punt, as I know Denon cartridges only by reputation (my last 3 cartridges have been AT-OC9 of various vintages, but the price of them has risen sharply).
Anyway, I believe the 103 in question (apart from being naked) has a threaded stabiliser attached to it, which will make fitting a bit easier. Jason has warned me to be extremely careful not to touch any of the exposed internal wires (I'll do my best, infamous hamfist that I am :)).
I'm going to be putting the 103 on a Tecnoarm and will be using my modded Lynwood MC stage.
Couple of questions:
The phono stage isn't adjustable, but was a very good match to the AT-OC9, so what are the odds it will sound good with the 103? The Denon has a slightly lower output, but I had plenty of gain with the OC9 so that shouldn't be an issue. How the loading will work out is another matter of course.
Any general tips on getting the best out of the 103 would be appreciated.
Cheers
Martin
Hello Martin,
Congratulations on acquiring the 103. Having a low compliance, it likes a fairly heavy headshell: total mass including that of the cartridge itself should be no less than 25g and no more than about 60g.
The loading will probably be the same as was presented to your OC9. 100 Ohms is ideal.
There are several fans of the Denon 103 here; I'm sure others will be along to offer you their advice.
Regards
Hello Martin,
Congratulations on acquiring the 103. Having a low compliance, it likes a fairly heavy headshell: total mass including that of the cartridge itself should be no less than 25g and no more than about 60g.
The loading will probably be the same as was presented to your OC9. 100 Ohms is ideal.
There are several fans of the Denon 103 here; I'm sure others will be along to offer you their advice.
Regards
Thanks.
I reckon I'll find out soon enough :)
Looking forward to hearing it.
Cheers
Martin
I reckon I'll find out soon enough :)
Tomorrow, if Royal Mail Spesh Del lives up to the hype. My other half posted it today for me as I'm away (again).
Hope you like it!
Jason
Hi Martin,
Regarding the Denon 103 and AT OC9 cartridges, I think, I am qualified to say a thing or two.
I have been using Denon cartridges since the seventies. My first MC cartridge was a Denon DL103, the second a DL103D and the third a DL303……. I still own 7 Denon cartridges. I also have 9 AT cartridges as well, including the OC9 which I rate it highly though I prefer the PTG more.
I agree that the 103 needs a heavy arm to perform its best but instead I am using it with high gain active phono stages rather than a SUT into one of their MM inputs. I load both of the cartridges at 100 ohms, 40ohms setting if using the Denon AU-340 SUT loaded at 47K. Any way, you can also try it with different loadings, such as 200 or 300 ohms, and see which setting is best for your liking.
Your Techno arm has an effective mass of about 12 grams which may not be optimal for the Denon 103, but still it will be compatible. In fact, a 103R is a better choice than a stock 103.
Hi Martin,
I'm very surprised at your thread title, as one look through the archives would reveal that the answer to your question is 'Yes, rather a lot!' :eyebrows: ;)
I took the plunge and bought Jason P's nuded 103 - should be with me any day now.
It was a bit of a punt, as I know Denon cartridges only by reputation (my last 3 cartridges have been AT-OC9 of various vintages, but the price of them has risen sharply).
It'll be interesting to know what your reaction is when you hear the marked difference in presentation between both cartridges. The 103 isn't as bright sounding as the OC-9 (the latter having a noticeable treble peak when used in a neutral and revealing system), but neither is it dull when set up and partnered optimally - far from it.
What you should notice with the 103 is deeper and more tuneful bass, and an overall way with music that is beguiling and addictively infectious, which in my experience escapes the OC-9, as good as the latter is in a 'hi-fi' sense.
Anyway, I believe the 103 in question (apart from being naked) has a threaded stabiliser attached to it, which will make fitting a bit easier. Jason has warned me to be extremely careful not to touch any of the exposed internal wires (I'll do my best, infamous hamfist that I am :)).
Yes, do be careful with that! Apart from making fitting it easlier, the stabiliser will also help provide added mass which the 103 will need in order to perform as optimally as possible on your Tecnoarm.
Couple of questions:
The phono stage isn't adjustable, but was a very good match to the AT-OC9, so what are the odds it will sound good with the 103?
Your phono stage should be fine, as both the OC-9 and 103 'like' loading at 100k, therefore you will have no issues there whatsoever. However, achieving a satisfactory result, sonically, will depend whether or not the signature of the 103 synergises sonically with that of the Tecnoarm and the rest of your system.
Any general tips on getting the best out of the 103 would be appreciated.
The Tecnoarm isn't an ideal partner for a 103, however, if you get the mass right at the headshell end, and your phono stage 'likes' the 103, then you've got a better than fighting chance of it delivering the goods to your satisfaction.
All I would say is be as fastidious as possible in terms of optimising VTA (you want the arm to be bang on level with the record playing surface), ensure that azimuth and alignment are 100% spot on, and track it at 2.6g, which in my experience, is where everything clicks into place, musically.
Good luck and if you need more advice, just ask! :cool:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
06-05-2010, 13:12
Hi Martin,
The 103 isn't as bright sounding as the OC-9 (the latter having a noticeable treble peak when used in a neutral and revealing system)
Marco.
i appreciate im coming in to this as someone who has little experience of cartridges, but my ears, i think, are pretty good. i have had the first oc9 and now the oc9iii and treble brightness isn't something i have come across at all marco
My Stilton OC9 DOESN'T have a treble peak in a neutral system, and neither do my speakers take off in the treble like old Tannoys do :ner:, but in fairness, the standard body of the 103 does seem to add its character to an otherwise excellent generator (with my reservations on the conical tip).
With a technoarm, I'd almost be inclined to add loads of mass at the headshell and increasing the mass of the counterweight to balance it all out. The one resonance remaining in the Rega pipe won't be excitied and the bearings will happily take the extra load.
Guys,
At the end of the day, you hear what you hear and like what you like. If to your ears in your system the OC-9's treble peak isn't noticeable, and you like how the cartridge sounds, then no-one can dispute that :)
Let's remember that a system (mine included) is precisely that: a collection of components whose collective sonic signatures are tailored to give a musically satisfying result, which is what I suggest will be happening in your systems with the OC-9.
However, unfortunately that doesn't detract from the fact that the OC-9 is intrinsically quite a bright sounding cartridge, and indeed has a clearly indentifed and measurable treble peak.
From this last month's HFW (where the OC-9 was being analysed in comparison to the featured MC cartridges under test):
The rise in output level towards the top end of the frequency range is, as with most MCs that measure this way, noticeable...
Indeed. I can quite clearly hear this, and it is precisely this "rise in output level towards the top end of the frequency range" that I dislike and find irritating, particularly with recordings which already have a treble emphasis (and/or lack of bass) of their own.
However, the article goes on to say:
...but this is never accompanied by any harshness or spittiness. Yes, this is quite a bright cartridge, but at the same time it manages to be sweet and beguiling at the top end, as such, is ideal for adding a touch of sparkle to a smoother sounding system.
I completely concur with that analysis, as it correlates exactly with my own experience of the using the OC-9. It's not bright in a nasty sense, far from it, but it is bright nonetheless. There is a graph accompanying the article which clearly shows the frequency at which the treble peak (I can clearly hear) occurs.
My system doesn't require 'added sparkle', and indeed being essentially neutral sounding, does not benefit from it - that's the bottom line. The 103SA I use does not exhibit those characteristics, and when optimally set up and partnered, is much more even-handed through the high frequencies, certainly in my system which is not lacking in either treble detail or bass depth.
I guess that Martin will be able to put his finger on what I'm referring to, when after having been used to the presentation of his OC-9, hears the nuded 103....
The other thing is, anyone who's carried out a detailed comparison between the OC-9 and the AT-33PTG will also be aware of what I'm referring to, where the latter's deeper bass adds body to upper frequencies, meaning that treble is not spotlit and exposed in a way which escapes the OC-9, although Dave's Stilton modifications may ameliorate that effect to some degree.
Like I said though guys, what I describe about the OC-9 is not necessarily what you're hearing in your own systems, as the overall balance will have been tailored in the OC-9's favour (or pehaps you just enjoy a slightly emphasised treble, as many people do), otherwise you wouldn't have chosen one in the first place! ;)
Marco.
Hi,
I have a DL103 which is housed in a Midas block (ally shell in a nice gold colour), this certainly adds weight to the cart - for more info search for Daiwok / Midas on the Lenco Heaven site. I have no connection blah, blah.:rolleyes:
Alan
The Vinyl Adventure
06-05-2010, 14:33
although i didnt technically choose mine (what with the original coming on a turntable i bought and the latest one i have being a insurance claim) i am now exceptionally pleased with mine!
where about in the frequency response does this output level rise?
Hi Hamish,
although i didnt technically choose mine (what with the original coming on a turntable i bought and the latest one i have being a insurance claim) i am now exceptionally pleased with mine!
That's the bottom line, matey, and ALL that matters! :)
where about in the frequency response does this output level rise?
I'm crap at reading graphs (although it is clearly marked), but it looks like it starts to rise at approximately 13kHz.
If you want to see it for yourself, get hold of a May edition of HFW :cool:
Marco.
In room, 13KHz is largely irrelevant to us, as most over 35 won't hear it easily and the room furnishings will absorb it to a large degree..
I'm not poo stirring, but I'd ask marco if the CD player "fails" in the same way as the OC9 does in his system. If that's the case and without having heard it (apart from a second hand comment on the Lockwood's balance at the recent show), I'd say that the Tannoy tweeter needs turning down a notch. I'm keeping an open mind (honest), but just gently trying to put a different and respectful viewpoint over.
The one over-riding memory I have of the 103 isn't the bass or mid, but the slightly "rounded out" treble.
Oh to have some more disposable income to test my lop-sided theory :( I think I'd rather have an A23 with the AT first...
I only really listen to a 103 once against a ZXY R100H The 103 had a bronze casing and to my ears beat the ZXY I think you will like a lot
Thanks chaps - plenty for me to think about there.
Just in from work and there is a cartridge-sized parcel waiting for me. I have therefore banished all thoughts of alcohol, TV and other distractions and will fit the 103 tonight.
The only real shock is the recommended tracking weight - 2.6 g is like a ton of bricks compared to the 1.7 g my OC9 was set at!
Will report back as soon as I've got tunes to hear again.
Scrub up, it's time to operate!
Martin
Hi Dave,
In room, 13KHz is largely irrelevant to us, as most over 35 won't hear it easily and the room furnishings will absorb it to a large degree..
Perhaps, but I can clearly hear the effect and I'm 43! ;)
I do have exceptionally good hearing though for my age, as has been tested in my medical reports.
I'm not poo stirring, but I'd ask marco if the CD player "fails" in the same way as the OC9 does in his system.
I know you're not "poo stirring", so relax. The OC-9 didn't 'fail' in my system - I could just clearly hear the treble peak and its associated high frequency emphasis (the same as HFW did) with the music I was listening to at the time. Its existence is beyond question, IMO, and I'm clearly not the only one who can hear it.
As for my CD player, no, it sounds absolutely sublime, and I listen to music for hours each day with no fatigue factor whatsoever.
What you should also know is that I listened to the OC-9 when I had my Spendor SP100s, not the Tannoys, and they weren't in any way toppy sounding (as indeed neither are the Lockwoods), and the OC-9's treble peak was clearly evident then.
I think both Hamish and you just enjoy the effect of the OC-9's added 'sparkle', and have systems to suit it. There's nothing wrong with that :)
If that's the case and without having heard it (apart from a second hand comment on the Lockwood's balance at the recent show), I'd say that the Tannoy tweeter needs turning down a notch. I'm keeping an open mind (honest), but just gently trying to put a different and respectful viewpoint over.
Lol! I'm afraid, Dave, none of that is relevant. If you're referring to Jerry's remark from Scalford Hall, then I believe it was nothing to do with my Tannoys sounding bright, or over-emphasised in the treble in any way, but rather a particular characteristic of the midrange which Jerry identified and didn't like, solely with classical music, although I'm unaware of it myself.
Also, remember that my Monitor Golds have been hard-wired in the 'flat' position, and the tone controls disposed of, so there's nothing to 'turn down'.......
When you eventually hear them for yourself, you'll realise that they're simply extremely revealing and as tonally neutral as is possible, therefore anything which deviates from that state of neutrality (recordings or the sonic signature of equipment) is shown up in all its glory, which is precisely what true monitors are designed to do.
The one over-riding memory I have of the 103 isn't the bass or mid, but the slightly "rounded out" treble.
Then you haven't heard one partnered and set-up optimally. The 103 isn't "rounded out"; it simply doesn't have as extended a high frequency response as most modern MC's, some of which go up to 55 kHz and above, in my view often at the expense of what happens further down the frequency range in the 'meat and bones' of the music, in an area where most of us can hear and appreciate what's going on.
Oh to have some more disposable income to test my lop-sided theory. I think I'd rather have an A23 with the AT first...
Nothing wrong with that - it would probably work very well! However, my advice would be not to make that decision until you hear what the 103SA/A23 combo sounds like first, which is something you'll be treated to when you visit chez-moi ;)
Marco.
Gratuitous nude photo.
I think she looks classy with no clothes on.
:)
Martin
Nice one, Martin :)
When you've got it up and running, I'll be interested in what your ears pick up on most - the superior reproduction of high frequencies and greater detail retrieval of the OC-9, or the 103's more organic, less 'hi-fi' sound, prodigious bass and beguilingly addictive way of music-making, which hopefully the Tecnoarm and your phono stage will reveal................
We await the outcome of your analysis with much interest!
Marco.
Don't distract me, I'm getting into the zone....
Lord, how I dread fitting cartridges - that constant fear that I am going to woollyjumper the bloody thing at any moment.
Maybe I should show solidarity with the 103 by fitting it in the nude, thus avoiding any possibility of ripping the cantilever off with a stray piece of cloth.
Focus....
Breath in....
and out again.
Nearly ready to begin.
:)
Martin
Nice one, Martin :)
When you've got it up and running, I'll be interested in what your ears pick up on most - the superior reproduction of high frequencies and greater detail retrieval of the OC-9, or the 103's more organic, less 'hi-fi' sound, prodigious bass and beguilingly addictive way of music-making, which hopefully the Tecnoarm and your phono stage will reveal................
We await the outcome of your analysis with much interest!
Marco.
Mission accomplished.
I bunged the Denon onto the tecnoarm and took a wild guess at alignment. Then I measured it with my protractor and found I had it absolutely bang on - perfect! :)
Had to keep reassuring myself that 2.6 g really is a suitable tracking weight for a cartridge and not merely a typo!
Anyway, all's well.
First impressions:
(Context: my Jericho horns still don't have any tweeters, so I'm missing out on pretty much everything above 12KHz!)
Nice.
Bass is powerful and plentiful with a nice bounce to it.
Mids are clear and clean, if a little recessed in comparison to the OC9, but plenty of tweaking of arm height, tracking weight etc to go yet, so who knows what might change...
It all sounds very natural and believable. Perhaps a bit less detail than the OC9 (or it could be a simple case of these being less sparkle in the top end).
Very impressed so far.
I really must get those tweeters sorted though - I mean, I really should have bought those first, but I needed a new cartridge and this one just called out to me from the classifeds. What else could I do? :rolleyes: . It's all lacking a little, er, sparkle at the moment. But what the heck - I'm 41, so my high frequency hearing is probably history anyway :lol:.
Thus far, the optimum arm height appears to be armtube absolutely parallel to the LP.
I'm never sure where to set the anti skate on a Rega/Tecnoarm, so have set it at just over half the tracking weight (I can never hear much difference anyway....).
Plenty more fiddling, fussing and all round anorakish behaviour to follow :).
Cheers
Martin
I think it's a great time to be a 103 or 103R owner. The proliferation of information online related to tweaking and elevating the performance of these cartridges over the past few years has literally exploded, offering owners of the 103 and 103R's really affordable avenues to enjoy an ultra highend cartridge at a relatively budget price.
While the stock 103 and 103R both offer exceptional value for money (with proper tonearm matching-they are bit more sensitive and a bit of an enthusiasts cartridge than many other competing cartridges), they really come into their own with 1) improved and more rigid bodies (ie. aluminum or wood) and 2) an improved stylus.
I've been running 103R's for the past 4 years or so, starting with the stock cartridge which I thought offered great value for money. When I replaced the plastic body with an ebony body by Uwe about 3 years ago I was shocked at the improved performance. Pretty much every aspect of the cartridge's performance was enhanced. I didn't think it could get much better.
But it did. About a month and half ago I received an ebony bodied 103R back from Soundsmith with their level 2 retip featuring a line contact stylus and ruby cantiliver. I also had the cartridge "potted" with epoxy at the same time to enhance the structural rigidity of the generator, similar to the process which Zu was using on their rebodied 103/103R's. To say I'm impressed would be an understatement.
The line contact stylus is extremely sensitive to proper setup and not getting it right will definitely result in a tipped up presentation and tonal balance. But get it right and the line contact, stiff bodied 103R can (IMO and others who have experienced such an animal) compete with the very best, extremely exotic and most expensive cartridges out there.
There's some criticism of the stock 103 being a bit rolled off and the 103R is supposedly more extended at both frequency extremes as well as offering up a bit more detail. I say supposedly because I've never used a stock 103.
While the high frequency performance of my 103R's were really enhanced when they were slotted into wood bodies, I was not prepared for what the LC stylus would do.
In essence it revealed that the 103R is indeed rolled off and not particularly extended when it comes to the high frequencies. The conical stylus simply misses a lot of information. Ultimately, though, because the Denons get the tonal balance and density so right in their stock form they are really enjoyable cartridges to listen to. As the hi-fi rags say, their errors are those of ommission rather than commission. I can't think of another hi-fi product that this cliche would apply to more than the Denon 103/103R.
The improved bodies really help the cartridge just do everything better. The LC stylus then furthers those improvements and adds on a couple that are real show stoppers. The first and most apparent one is the abovementioned increase in high frequency information retreival and extension.
What's really shocking though, when going to the line contact, is much more information is both retreived and unravelled in the midband where the Denon sounds so "right" to start off with. Complex or dense passages in music are literally transformed, to the point that some (not all but some) recordings are almost recognizeable.
And providing proper setup, all of this is achieved without loss of musicality or that "organic" quality which Marco refers to.
The fact that these improvements can be made in stages, ie. wood or aluminum body for $100-$150 and then a new stylus and/or "potting" ($250-$350) following expiration of the stock stylus which is usually good for around 1000 hours makes the whole process, generally speaking, quite affordable with the added bonus of being able to do it over time.
If you're using a stock Denon 103 or 103R, you owe it to yourself to go further with these cartridges. You'll be shocked at what they're capable of.
And that goes for you too Marco, with your 103SA! Wear that stylus out and send that cartridge off to Soundsmith or Expert Stylus for all you UK boys!
Hi Martin,
Sounds good so far - I really hope it works out for you :)
Have you any idea how much mass (extra weight) the stabiliser adds to the 103?
What you're aiming for is around 17g on the headshell of the tonearm, excluding the weight of the 103 itself: so that's the mass of the Tecnoarm's headshell area added to the weight of the stabiliser.
If that equates to less than 16.5-17g, then you'll need to add more mass to the Tecnoarm's headshell in the form of adhesive leaded strips, Blu-Tack, etc.
Listen out for any 'edginess' or distortion when playing difficult/challenging recordings. If you detect any, then most likely there isn't enough mass on the headshell. Try something 'busy' with lots of midrange and high frequency detail. I find some Beatles recordings good for this, or Indie music.
Getting the mass right will also ensure that bass has the requisite weight and solidity. Don't overdo it though as you'll kill the sound, making it flat and overblown (rather like the effect of dialing in too much VTF).
The other thing too is not to over-tighten the screws holding the cartridge onto the headshell. These should simply be finger tightened, then gently 'nipped up' with a screwdriver or Allen key, as over-tightening them adds a hard edge to the sound.
Enjoy and keep us posted! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Blake,
Good post - some useful info there :)
And that goes for you too Marco, with your 103SA! Wear that stylus out and send that cartridge off to Soundsmith or Expert Stylus for all you UK boys!
Well, with the 'SA', I've already got the body-shell sorted, so yes, the next move would be to 'upgrade' the stylus, as you have outlined.
Thing is though, I'm not sure..... Don't get me wrong, I don’t doubt for one second the results you're hearing in your system and have reported here, but I'm sceptical purely because experience so far tells me that putting a 'posh' stylus on a 103 is somewhat of a mixed blessing.
I've owned almost every version of the DL-103 since using them in the early 80s, including a 103D and 103M, both of which had special elliptical type styli, and whilst there were clear gains in high frequency detail retrieval, the trade-off was always the loss of *some* of the 103's rhythmic alacrity, 'boogie factor', groovy deep bass, and overall 'fun factor', for a more sober 'hi-fi' sound, which although more crisply etched and detailed, was to my ears ultimately less musically involving.
You're of course saying that won't happen if a Soundsmith line-contact stylus is fitted, and I accept that, but then, no disrespect, I only have your word for it. I could end up ruining the very characteristics I love about the 103SA to gain traits which I don't consider important for my enjoyment of music and waste a not inconsiderable sum of money in the process, both paying Soundsmith or Expert Stylus for their efforts, and then having to buy another 103SA to recover the type of sonic (and musical) presentation I like...........
Hardly cut and dried or risk-free, is it? :scratch:
The fact is, there is generally *always* some sort of trade-off from changing stylus profiles on cartridges - rarely, if ever, have I heard only positives and no negatives whatsoever, as indeed was the case with my experience of the 103M and 103D.
This has also always been the case when I've compared cartridges from other manufacturers offering a choice of stylus profiles with the same cartridge, such as the Ortofon SPU and EMT, where in general I've always preferred the conical versions, as these, whilst not being as über-detailed at high frequencies, seemed to have a certain way with music that appealed to me, and which I find highly addictive: call it 'soul', if you like.
In effect what I'm saying is that conical styli (when used on generators with Alnico magnets, such as with the 103, SPU, EMT, etc) appear to give music certain sonic characteristics that I'm unwilling to sacrifice in favour of more 'sparkle' or high frequency detail retrieval, which undoubtedly line-contact styli excel at.
This doesn't mean though that I'm settling for a 'rounded-off' sound (far from it!); merely that I don't require the added 'sparkle' generated by the reproduction of more high-frequency detail to 'connect' with the musical message when playing my favourite records.
It's rather like the effect of super-tweeters on loudspeakers... How many of us use them, and how many of us happily get by without them and enjoy our favourite music regardless, blissfully unaware of any lack of 'treble sparkle' or missing high-frequency information?
Undoubtedly, super-tweeters add extension to the top end, but not always in an integrated way with the rest of the frequency range, which can then have a negative knock-on effect on the overall 'musicality' of a system. Sometimes they can work very well of course, but I've heard what I've described above with them more often than not.
Don't get me wrong, I'll certainly give your suggestion some consideration when the stylus on my 103SA wears out, but as I'm seriously considering buying an EMT XSD-15 (conical type), I'm not sure if having a 'posh tipped' 103SA, too, is somewhat of an extravagance.......
Marco.
Hi Martin,
Sounds good so far - I really hope it works out for you :)
Have you any idea how much mass (extra weight) the stabiliser adds to the 103?
What you're aiming for is around 17g at the headshell of the tonearm, excluding the weight of the 103 itself: so that's the mass of the Tecnoarm's headshell area added to the weight of the stabiliser.
If that equates to less than 16.5-17g, then you'll need to add more mass to the Tecnoarm's headshell in the form of adhesive leaded strips, Blu-Tack, etc.
Listen out for any 'edginess' or distortion when playing difficult/challenging recordings. If you detect any, then most likely there isn't enough mass on the headshell. Try something 'busy' with lots of midrange and high frequency detail. I find some Beatles recordings good for this, or Indie music.
Getting the mass right will also ensure that bass has the requisite weight and solidity. Don't overdo it though as you'll kill the sound, making it flat and overblown (rather like the effect of dialing in too much VTF).
The other thing too is not to tighten the screws holding the cartridge onto the headshell too much. These should simply be finger tightened, then gently 'nipped up' with a screwdriver or Allen key, as over-tightening them adds a hard edge to the sound.
Enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Thanks Marco
The Isokinetic stabiliser thing (which is glued to the cartridge) adds about 3.3 g of mass, but I believe the cartridge body (now removed) is about 1.5 g, so the net added mass is about 1.8g (ish). Included with the cartridge was a small black square metal plate, which I assume is designed to add further mass - might try adding that, as I can indeed hear traces of distortion in the mids.
Cheers
Martin
jandl100
07-05-2010, 08:45
Stay with it, Martin!
Does your arm have a detachable headshell? ... If so, get a Sumiko headshell for the Denon. ;) Nice and heavy and works a treat, ime.
Well, this seems an ideal opportunity for another photo of my re-bodied Denon 103 :eek: ...
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DenonTAF5.jpg
Yes, some news for Marco (or have I already mentioned this?) - I've sold the DV17D3 and gone back to the Denon with a sense of musical relief! - less 'sophistication' but more music! Full bodied and loadsa bounce! :carrot:
Hi Martin,
Yes definitely add the metal plate *IF* it is non-magnetic! I can't stress that enough, as otherwise it will ruin the sound, giving music a 'sat on' effect.
If the metal plate is made from a magnetic material then use small strips of lead flashing for doll's houses, available on Ebay from a number of sources, and fix it to the headshell of the Tecnoarm. Just search on Ebay for details.
The other thing I can't stress enough is that you MUST have at least 16.5g of mass on the headshell for a 103 to 'work against' in order for it to perform optimally. Anything less than that will show up distortion on some heavily modulated types of music.
Jerry,
Yes, some news for Marco (or have I already mentioned this?) - I've sold the DV17D3 and gone back to the Denon with a sense of musical relief! - less 'sophistication' but more music! Full bodied and loadsa bounce!
I getcha loud & clear, brovva, and totally agree :cool:
Apart from when assessing certain aspects of musical presentation with Lockwood Majors, using Tannoy Monitor Gold drivers, you've got a damn fine pair of ears! :eyebrows:
;)
In all seriousness though, I think that in many ways we're 'in tune' with what we look for in most types of equipment :)
Marco.
Stay with it, Martin!
Does your arm have a detachable headshell? ... If so, get a Sumiko headshell for the Denon. ;) Nice and heavy and works a treat, ime.
Well, this seems an ideal opportunity for another photo of my re-bodied Denon 103 :eek: ...
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DenonTAF5.jpg
Yes, some news for Marco (or have I already mentioned this?) - I've sold the DV17D3 and gone back to the Denon with a sense of musical relief! - less 'sophistication' but more music! Full bodied and loadsa bounce! :carrot:
Hi Jerry
Nah - Tecnoarm is of Rega origin, so no messing with headshells allowed.
I will definitely persevere - very pleased with the results so far and the 103 seems to like my phono stage.
Next question will be whether to leave the 103 naked or try one of those fancy new suits for it....
The preamp is proving an an absolute stonker by the way :).
Cheers
Martin
Hi Martin,
Yes definitely add the metal plate *IF* it is non-magnetic! I can't stress that enough, as otherwise it will ruin the sound, giving music a 'sat on' effect.
If the metal plate is made from a magnetic material then use small strips of lead flashing for doll's houses, available on Ebay from a number of sources, and fix it to the headshell of the Tecnoarm. Just search on Ebay for details.
The other thing I can't stress enough is that you MUST have at least 16.5g of mass on the headshell for a 103 to 'work against' in order for it to perform optimally. Anything less than that will show up distortion on some heavily modulated types of music.
Jerry,
I getcha loud & clear, brovva, and totally agree :cool:
Apart from when assessing certain aspects of musical presentation with Lockwood Majors, using Tannoy Monitor Gold drivers, you've got a damn fine pair of ears! :eyebrows:
;)
In all seriousness though, I think that in many ways we're 'in tune' with what we look for in most types of equipment :)
Marco.
yes, a little more mass would help, I suspect. I'll check to see if the metal plate is magnetic....
Rather pleased so far. Bit of a bargain methinks :)
Martin
Hi Blake,
Good post - some useful info there :)
Well, with the 'SA', I've already got the body-shell sorted, so yes, the next move would be to 'upgrade' the stylus, as you have outlined.
Thing is though, I'm not sure..... Don't get me wrong, I don’t doubt for one second the results you're hearing in your system and have reported here, but I'm sceptical purely because experience so far tells me that putting a 'posh' stylus on a 103 is somewhat of a mixed blessing.
I've owned almost every version of the DL-103 since using them in the early 80s, including a 103D and 103M, both with special elliptical type styli, and whilst there were clear gains in high frequency detail retrieval, the trade-off was always the loss of *some* of the 103's rhythmic alacrity, bouncy, groovy deep bass, and overall 'fun factor', for a more sober 'hi-fi' sound, which although more crisply etched and detailed, was to my ears ultimately less musically involving.
You're of course saying that won't happen if a Soundsmith line-contact stylus is fitted, and I accept that, but then, no disrespect, I only have your word for it. I could end up ruining the very characteristics I love about the 103SA to gain traits which I don't consider important for my enjoyment of music and waste a not inconsiderable sum of money in the process, both paying Soundsmith or Expert Stylus for their efforts, and then having to buy another 103SA to recover the type of sonic (and musical) presentation I like...........
Hardly cut and dried or risk-free, is it? :scratch:
The fact is, there is generally *always* some sort of trade-off from changing stylus profiles on cartridges - rarely, if ever, have I heard only positives and no negatives whatsoever, as indeed was the case with my experience of the 103M and 103D.
This has also always been the case when I've compared cartridges from other manufacturers offering a choice of stylus profiles with the same cartridge, such as the Ortofon SPU and EMT, where in general I've always preferred the conical versions, as these, whilst not being as über-detailed at high frequencies, seemed to add a certain 'magic' to the way music was reproduced that appealed to me, and which I find highly addictive: call it 'soul', if you like.
In effect what I'm saying is that conical styli (when used on generators with Alnico magnets, such as with the 103, SPU, EMT, etc) appear to give music certain sonic characteristics that I'm unwilling to sacrifice in favour of more 'sparkle' or high frequency detail retrieval, which undoubtedly line-contact styli excel at.
This doesn't mean though that I'm settling for a 'rounded-off' sound (far from it!); merely that I don't require the added 'sparkle' generated by the reproduction of more high-frequency detail to 'connect' with the musical message when playing my favourite records.
It's rather like the effect of super-tweeters on loudspeakers... How many of us use them, and how many of us happily get by without them and enjoy our favourite music regardless, blissfully unaware of any lack of 'treble sparkle' or missing high-frequency detail?
Undoubtedly, super-tweeters add extension to the top end, but not always in an integrated way with the rest of the frequency range, which can then have a negative knock-on effect on the overall 'musicality' of a system. Sometimes they can work very well of course, but I've heard what I've described above with them more often than not.
Don't get me wrong, I'll certainly give your suggestion some consideration when the stylus on my 103SA wears out, but as I'm seriously considering buying an EMT XSD-15 (conical type), I'm not sure if having a 'posh tipped' 103SA, too, is somewhat of an extravagance.......
Marco.
Good post Marco.
Generally I would concur; I'm quite content with conical tipped stylii. The vast majority of the musical information lies in the mid band, and this is where, as you have stated, you appreciate the use of a conical tip. Any other shape is unnecessary to track the bass notes, since there the tip radius is very much smaller than the radius of curvature of the groove.
At high frequencies things are obviously different. Once those wriggles on the record have a radius that approaches that of the styus, the path traced by the stylus becomes more 'abrupt' compared with that of the groove. Ideally of course, the stylus ought have to have the same shape as that of the cutter: a triangular cross section with sharp edges. Unfortunately we can't cut a diamond like that and fit it with sufficient precision so as not to carve up our records; the elliptical or fine-line profiles are the best we can do, and then the cartridges need to be set up with particular care.
Both the Denon and EMT range were designed for broadcast use. That is, to be sufficiently robust to withstand the rigors of studio use and yet have a sufficiently good performance for quality broadcasts. Remember that FM radio only has a response up to 15KHz, so impeccable top end performance is wasted. It's certainly wasted on me at my age, my hearing becomes 'irregular' beyond 10KHz!
I'm not sure I would necessarily agree with you concerning the use of Alnico magnets, however I have never spent much time with any cartridge that uses samarium-cobalt or neodymium-boron magnets, such as the Koetsu, Lyra or later Ortofon, so cannot speak from experience.
Looks like I'd better bring along both my EMTs (conical and fine-line stylii) for you to try, when I next see you.
Regards
Barry, Marco: As the cartridge I sent off to Soundsmith had 1000 hours on it and I already had another in use with minimal hours, I wasn't really that concerned.
Nonetheless, I did share your trepidation with respect to going to the line contact stylus and losing that "Denon" or conical stylus magic.
I'll admit that with a small minority of recordings (maybe 10 per cent) the increased high frequency extension with the line contact can tilt the tonal balance up a bit and be a bit excessive. In that sense, the conical stylus is "more forgiving" of less than stellar recordings; you'll get no argument from me there.
But on the vast majority of recordings the LC'd Denon simply sounds significantly better through the midband and lower frequencies as well. Ironically, though, it is most notable in the midband where, on many recordings, the line contact stylus simply reveals information that the conical is not just presenting with "less detail" but missing entirely. The LC has an ability to unravel complex passages and not get bogged down or congested which, once you've heard the LC you realize the Denon conical is doing in full force.
And, as I said, all of this happens without the loss of the musicality and overall coherence that many users value with the Denons. Provided, of course, you get the setup right and, as much as it needs to be "right" with the conical, the LC is even more unforgiving of improper setup with respect to VTA and VTF.
Do it! You will not be disappointed!
Hi Blake,
Thanks for the added info - like I said, I'll give your recommendation some consideration in due course :)
I'll admit that with a small minority of recordings (maybe 10 per cent) the increased high frequency extension with the line contact can tilt the tonal balance up a bit and be a bit excessive.
Ah, so there is a downside after all? ;)
That's rather important, and for me would cause problems with a significant part of my music collection on vinyl, as a lot of it is rock/pop music which are not exactly 'high-fidelity' recordings. Therefore, for me, the percentage is likely to be more like 70%.
In that respect, I think the type of music one listens to must therefore also be taken into consideration. I'm not saying you are, but I'm certainly not someone who listens almost exclusively to audiophile recordings of jazz/classical or female vocalists.........
Incidentally, what T/T, tonearm, phono stage and preamp are you using with your 103? Forgive me if I've missed you mentioning this somewhere else before.
Marco.
P.S Barry, that sounds like a plan :cool:
Hi Marco: I don't do much in the audiophile weenie recording stuff. My main interests are hardbop jazz from the '55 to '65 period and blues and rock from the '67 to late 70's time period. That would comprise about 95% of my collection and listening.
I'm using a Michell Gyrodec with a Jelco 750D with a custom ebony and carbon fibre headshell and running fully balanced from cartridge into an Aqvox phono stage and from there balanced to a Jungson integrated amplifier. Speakers are Elipson 1313's.
I would say that fully 90% of what I listen to sounds significantly and outrageously better using the line contact stylus and the remaining 10% sounds quite abit better with the caveat that the LC stylus shows up some of the short comings of the recording engineer at those sessions not quite getting things right, mainly with respect to tonal balance. Even within those less than stellar recordings there is, generally speaking, a fair bit of improvement. I'm doing a bit of nitpicking to try not to mislead you:)
Nothing's perfect, but those are numbers that I can live with. I have another wood bodied Denon here with the stock stylus with 400 or 500 hours on it. Do I ever think of putting it back on (I even have a stock Jelco headshell I could mount it to for easy switches)? Never.
But I will be sending it off to Soundsmith at some point.
By way of a small bonus, it transpires that my OC9 is not dead...
It was merely very, very filthy.
I've cleaned the stylus and it sounds fine again.
But I prefer the Denon! It has a certain robust joie de vivre about it.
Happy ending - and I have the OC9 as a spare.
:)
Martin
jandl100
08-05-2010, 06:37
But I prefer the Denon! It has a certain robust joie de vivre about it.
:)
Martin
Spot on, Martin - the Denon 103's make music both interesting & fun! :carrot:
.... now all you need is a Technics 1210 tt! ;)
....... and why not sell the OC9? - a spot of spare cash to buy yourself an Eva2 passive pre. :eyebrows:
Spot on, Martin - the Denon 103's make music both interesting & fun! :carrot:
.... now all you need is a Technics 1210 tt! ;)
....... and why not sell the OC9? - a spot of spare cash to buy yourself an Eva2 passive pre. :eyebrows:
Aha! A cunning plan indeed....;)
Cheers
Martin
There's a chap in Germany who does superb retips at a fraction of the cost of Soundsmith. Axel is especially good on the classic B&O carts and restored the saphire cantilever/diamond stylus of an MMC20CL to a result at least as good as the original. With regard to the Denon, I suspect an HE or current Shibata stylus/cantilever may be possible with great results..
http://www.schallplattennadeln.de/
It's in German, and you'll have to drill into the MC Systeme and then Denon, after which you can translate (Axel types good English on emails...)
Well worth a try.
There's a chap in Germany who does superb retips at a fraction of the cost of Soundsmith. Axel is especially good on the classic B&O carts and restored the saphire cantilever/diamond stylus of an MMC20CL to a result at least as good as the original. With regard to the Denon, I suspect an HE or current Shibata stylus/cantilever may be possible with great results..
http://www.schallplattennadeln.de/
It's in German, and you'll have to drill into the MC Systeme and then Denon, after which you can translate (Axel types good English on emails...)
Well worth a try.
I've heard good things about this retipper as well but "fraction of the price"? Unless I'm missing something, on the closest apples to apples comparison, the above vendor's price on a shibata stylus with a born cantilever is 265 Euros or $338 U.S. at current conversion vs. $250 for the LC/ruby cantilever at Soundsmith.
I didn't do the math on the lower end retips but Soundsmith will do an elliptical stylus on an aluminum cantilever for $150 which I would expect to be very close to the schallplattennadeln price for a similar retip as well.
I've also heard very good things about Expert Stylus' paratrace retip on the Denon. Not sure of the price but would expect it would be in the range listed above as well.
The big drawback with Soundsmith is the wait. You will be without a cartridge unless you have a back up for 3-4 months.
EsCo take ages now as well - victims of their success.
This latter re-builder do fantastic things to Troika's, both for me decades ago and recently too. I have an AT OC30 minus its diamond that sounds more like the 33PTG (a bit more powerful in the bass), and shall have it done when funds and turntable permit.
I remember 2 years ago, it only took 3-4 weeks for the re-tip from Soundsmith, but three months from Garrott Brothers (Decibel Hi Fi) to return the cartridge. The retipping time from Van Den Hul a few years ago was not too bad, though the cost is very expensive now.
Aha! A cunning plan indeed....;)
Cheers
Martin
So, Martin, how's it going with your 103 - is it still hitting the spot? :)
Marco.
So, Martin, how's it going with your 103 - is it still hitting the spot? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
It was - but one of my amps has had a very nasty transformer meltdown, so it may be a little while before I'm spinning vinyl again.
I was just at the stage of realising that I needed to raise the arm height considerably to get the best sound - in fact, rather than parallel to the record, I found the tecnoarm needed to be sloping down towards the headshell to a surprising degree. Otherwise, the bottom of the cartridge was looking frighteningly close to the vinyl....EDIT: and the sound was dead and 'sat on' with little top end and compressed bass.
I'll post again when my system is up and running - probably with different amplification, but we'll see if my amp is fixable.
Cheers
Martin
Well, I'm up and running again with a very nice Bantam T-Amp (loaned to me by that very nice Hamish fellow :)).
First things first. The 103 seems to like my tecnoarm to be higher at the bearing than at the headshell - considerably so, in fact. I've never encountered a cartridge quite as fussy about arm height. With the arm anywhere near level the sound is horribly sat on - compressed bass and flat treble. The close proximity of the cantilever housing to the surface of the record came as a surprise too, though that has been alleviated by raising the arm height
I still think there's more tinkering to do, but it's starting to sound right. Big, bold and vibrant. I'm beginning to see why the 103 is so popular.
:)
Martin
Flyfisher
15-07-2010, 10:30
Stay with it, Martin!
Well, this seems an ideal opportunity for another photo of my re-bodied Denon 103 :eek: ...
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DenonTAF5.jpg
Yes, some news for Marco (or have I already mentioned this?) - I've sold the DV17D3 and gone back to the Denon with a sense of musical relief! - less 'sophistication' but more music! Full bodied and loadsa bounce! :carrot:
Jerry
Let me know when you get the urge to swap cartridges again.
It would keep it in the county.
Regards
Roger
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