View Full Version : Cartridge options for SME 3009 Series 2 Non improved?
I've been using a Shure M55e cartridge with jelco stylus on a SME Series 2 non improved tonearm with detachable headshell for the past year or so. It's sounding very good but I am keen to try other options including MC, ideally in the £300ish price range new or secondhand. Does anyone with experience of using this tonearm have any recommendations?
To help the forum recommend offer suggestions for a replacement/ upgrade what do you want from the sound?
Like most hifi components there are always trade offs.
I have used a couple of the Linn MCs in the same arm, but in the back of my mind i know this isn't the best arm for an MC cart.
Which aspect of the sound is most important to you and what sort of music do you play?
Have you already got a head amp / step up transformer?
Mick
The best cartridge for this arm is almost certainly a Shure V15 variant. So do you want to go there or are you looking for something else?
Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
Yeah already using a Shure M55e, interested to know what other options are out there that might work as well or better.
Using a Rega Brio MM phonostage at the moment so would interested in hearing what HOMCs might be suitable.
walpurgis
17-02-2019, 23:14
Using a Rega Brio MM phonostage at the moment so would interested in hearing what HOMCs might be suitable.
I can't think of any that would be a good match to the SME.
If you could locate a decent vintage ADC 10E Mk.IV with original stylus, you'd have cartridge that will outperform quite a few MC's and suit your arm perfectly. It's on a par with the Denon DL-103R soundwise.
I can't think of any that would be a good match to the SME.
If you could locate a decent vintage ADC 10E Mk.IV with original stylus, you'd have cartridge that will outperform quite a few MC's and suit your arm perfectly. It's on a par with the Denon DL-103R soundwise.
Cheers that interesting, will keep an eye out for one. Are there any other MM cartridges that you think might be a significant step up from the M55e?
walpurgis
17-02-2019, 23:43
Cheers that interesting, will keep an eye out for one. Are there any other MM cartridges that you think might be a significant step up from the M55e?
ADC XLM III and ADC ZLM or if you can find them, Empire 1000 ZE/X and 999 VE/X (both rare). These are all vintage cartridges of high compliance and suit the SME. Hard to find but worth it. They must have original and good styli to be worth bothering with.
ADC XLM III and ADC ZLM or if you can find them, Empire 1000 ZE/X and 999 VE/X (both rare). These are all vintage cartridges of high compliance and suit the SME. Hard to find but worth it. They must have original and good styli to be worth bothering with.
Okay cheers, that's food for thought. Going in another direction, do you think a ortofon SPU might work?
walpurgis
17-02-2019, 23:58
Okay cheers, that's food for thought. Going in another direction, do you think a ortofon SPU might work?
Probably not. The SME needs high/highish compliance cartridges, say above 25cu. That rules out most MC's. The lovely Technics EPC-305 MC might just be OK, but you are unlikely to find one.
If you are interested in MC's your best bet is to sell the SME and buy a suitable arm in my opinion.
AJSki2fly
18-02-2019, 06:22
I found this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-NOS-Sealed-ADC-XLM-Improved-Mk-II-MKII-Phono-Cartridge-w-Stylus/153368596660?hash=item23b57b10b4:g:yD4AAOSw1UdcX8Y n
And
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CLASSIC-ADC-ZLM-IMPROVED-MM-CARTRIDGE-COMPLETE-TESTED-AND-PERFECT/303045592706?hash=item468eecc682:g:u6AAAOSwBPRcSIx G
As others indicate these should work well, however if you want more flexibility then it’s a more modern arm and cartridge IMO
I don't buy into the myth that SME 3000 series arms are only compatible with high compliance cartridges, and are unsuitable for use with MC cartridges.
I have used many low compliance cartridges sucessfully with an SME arm (such as Deccas and various MCs: EMT, Ortofon, Sumiko, Denon, etc.), though with some of these cartridges the arm has been damped near the pivot using the SME FD200 fluid damping dashpot (using the smallest (grey) paddle).
Agree with Geoff regarding the ADC cartridges; they will work very well with your SME.
Surprised to see 25+ compliance recommended for a 60's type SME 3009/S2, as SME's own chart shows (with a 7+g ADC) above 20cu leads to sub-8hz frequencies.
http://www.analogue-classics.com/html/sme_3009___3012.html
ADC didn't quote cu's at that stage; but recall 'difficulties' with the ADC10E/II in that arm; replaced, 1973, with 3009imp/FHS + Shure V15/III.
Never tried XLM in any SME3009 (used daily in a Series 3/mk2 wand); but that ADC series is troubled by stylus grip resonances (leading to coloration/reduced dynamics) unless care is taken to black-tack the grip.
Could reasonably recommend the XLM 'Integra' type (RXM-II stylus) on account of the less resonant plastic (& decent stylus)...those stylii possibly still available (though a bit more than mine @ £10 apiece).
I don't buy into the myth that SME 3000 series arms are only compatible with high compliance cartridges, and are unsuitable for use with MC cartridges.
I have used many low compliance cartridges sucessfully with an SME arm (such as Deccas and various MCs: EMT, Ortofon, Sumiko, Denon, etc.), though with some of these cartridges the arm has been damped near the pivot using the SME FD200 fluid damping dashpot (using the smallest (grey) paddle).
Agree with Geoff regarding the ADC cartridges; they will work very well with your SME.
Cheers Barry that's interesting stuff, so it is doable but the tonearm would need adjusted. I am planning on getting it rewired by Audio Origami later this year so that will be a good time to consider all the the options.
I don't buy into the myth that SME 3000 series arms are only compatible with high compliance cartridges, and are unsuitable for use with MC cartridges.
I have used many low compliance cartridges sucessfully with an SME arm (such as Deccas and various MCs: EMT, Ortofon, Sumiko, Denon, etc.), though with some of these cartridges the arm has been damped near the pivot using the SME FD200 fluid damping dashpot (using the smallest (grey) paddle).
Agree with Geoff regarding the ADC cartridges; they will work very well with your SME.
Excellent posting.
PM me if you want to try an XLM cartridge.
Smegger68
21-02-2019, 14:59
A lot of people seem to think this is the low weight improved variant and are recommending high compliance cartridges. It's actually a non-improved and as such medium compliance carts will work just fine.
You can use an SPU in it but that will benefit a LOT from the FD200 damping trough being fitted.
Excellent posting.
PM me if you want to try an XLM cartridge.
Cheers David. Will bear your offer in mind. Do you think it would be a significant step up from the M55e?
A lot of people seem to think this is the low weight improved variant and are recommending high compliance cartridges. It's actually a non-improved and as such medium compliance carts will work just fine.
You can use an SPU in it but that will benefit a LOT from the FD200 damping trough being fitted.
My understanding of the differences between the improved and non improved is pretty limited but I understand the non improved weighs 12.5g and is good bit heavier(?). It would be interesting to know if SME still provide any advice for these arms but I doubt it.
Cheers David. Will bear your offer in mind. Do you think it would be a significant step up from the M55e?
It ought to be. I have used ADC 25 and ADC 10E Mk.IV cartridges at some time, and loved them both. I haven't heard the XLM but since it is a later design from the 25, 26 and 10E, I would expect it to build on their strengths.
The Shure M55E is not a bad cartridge by any means, but it has gathered a lot of hype (as has the Shure M3D), which, IMO, it does not deserve.
(I still have a couple of samples of the ADC cartridges mentioned, as well as the M55E.)
walpurgis
21-02-2019, 21:02
It ought to be. I have used ADC 25 and ADC 10E Mk.IV cartridges at some time, and loved them both. I haven't heard the XLM but since it is a later design from the 25, 26 and 10E, I would expect it to build on their strengths.
I used to swap between the 10E Mk.IV and XLM III and found them pretty similar to listen to. Both very nice in other words. As non-MC cartridges go, it's a refined and sophisticated sound with excellent transparency.
It ought to be. I have used ADC 25 and ADC 10E Mk.IV cartridges at some time, and loved them both. I haven't heard the XLM but since it is a later design from the 25, 26 and 10E, I would expect it to build on their strengths.
The Shure M55E is not a bad cartridge by any means, but it has gathered a lot of hype (as has the Shure M3D), which, IMO, it does not deserve.
(I still have a couple of samples of the ADC cartridges mentioned, as well as the M55E.)
Cheers Barry, was interested to know what options were out there and it seems to be the census that the ADC is an excellent choice, it wasn't a cartridge I had heard much about before.
fletchdirect
22-02-2019, 18:15
I've been using a Shure M55e cartridge with jelco stylus on a SME Series 2 non improved tonearm with detachable headshell for the past year or so. It's sounding very good but I am keen to try other options including MC, ideally in the £300ish price range new or secondhand. Does anyone with experience of using this tonearm have any recommendations?
Heard an ortofon om40 fitted to a 3009 once, and to my ears sounded very good indeed. That was the top of the line moving magnet from ortofon before the 2m series and has a very good fritz Gyger stylus, still available
Heard an ortofon om40 fitted to a 3009 once, and to my ears sounded very good indeed. That was the top of the line moving magnet from ortofon before the 2m series and has a very good fritz Gyger stylus, still available
Cheers that's another one to consider and I will look it up. I'm currently thinking the mm phonostage I'm using is pretty decent and would like to get the best out of it before moving on to MC eventually.
Stick to MM’s, MC’s and SME’s knife edge bearings don’t mix, talkt to Ortofon and SME.
Stick to MM’s, MC’s and SME’s knife edge bearings don’t mix, talkt to Ortofon and SME.
Yeah I think you are on to something.
Stick to MM’s, MC’s and SME’s knife edge bearings don’t mix, talkt to Ortofon and SME.
How so?
Stick to MM’s, MC’s and SME’s knife edge bearings don’t mix, talkt to Ortofon and SME.Ran an ortofon mc fineline on a 3009, and it was superb.
I've listened to a Ortofon K'b on a 3009, at the price the K'b was purchased for, I did not find any reason to question the match.
It did tighten the bass with less bloom at the bottom end, and take the highs up to max, in a smooth less punchy presentation, when compared to a VI5 III.
I have not seen a A&R with replacement Stylus suggested, maybe the,
Boron Cantilever Jico SAS 1.
Cheers for all the suggestions folks, lot's of options to consider, it seems the tonearm is a bit more flexible than I first believed so that can only be a good thing. Anyone aware of modern more neutral sounding cartridges out there that might be worth checking out?
I've listened to a Ortofon K'b on a 3009, at the price the K'b was purchased for, I did not find any reason to question the match.
It did tighten the bass with less bloom at the bottom end, and take the highs up to max, in a smooth less punchy presentation, when compared to a VI5 III.
I have not seen a A&R with replacement Stylus suggested, maybe the,
Boron Cantilever Jico SAS 1.
Cheers John, from a bit of reading it looks like quite a few ortofon cartridges would work. Will look into the A&R, I know Jico have stopped making the SAS at the moment, I am keen to try a SAS on my M55e but they don't come up often 2nd hand.
Wakefield Turntables
23-02-2019, 20:41
Cheers John, from a bit of reading it looks like quite a few ortofon cartridges would work. Will look into the A&R, I know Jico have stopped making the SAS at the moment, I am keen to try a SAS on my M55e but they don't come up often 2nd hand.
I think (but not sure) you can still get the neoSAS stylus for the M55e from the states but it would be very pricey.
I think (but not sure) you can still get the neoSAS stylus for the M55e from the states but it would be very pricey.
Last time I checked was around 6 months ago and they were still available from the States, best part of £200 from what I recall.
I sent an email to SME enquiring what modern MM they would recommend for this arm, the service manager sent me this reply:
"For these arm we suggest models from Orotofon(2M range) Grado or Goldring(1006,1012 or 1022)".
I hadn't expected the 2M range to be recommended but did have a feeling Goldring would be. Not sure why the 1042 did'nt get a mention though?
I'm thinking of selling my Shure 55EM with Jico SAS stylus, if it's of interest let me know and I'll post a sale thread for it.
Bought it a few months ago on here and only tried it on a few LPs as it was bought as a spare but it's no longer needed. Won't have been used more than 2-3 hours since it came to me.
I'm thinking of selling my Shure 55EM with Jico SAS stylus, if it's of interest let me know and I'll post a sale thread for it.
Bought it a few months ago on here and only tried it on a few LPs as it was bought as a spare but it's no longer needed. Won't have been used more than 2-3 hours since it came to me.
PM sent.
The Black Adder
26-02-2019, 08:22
I have a S2 none improved and find that the SPU GT is the best cart I've ever heard.
I have a S2 none improved and find that the SPU GT is the best cart I've ever heard.
Yes - I've used several Ortofon MCs in an SME 3009 II. (SPU GE, S-15TE, SL15E, SL15E/II, MC25FL) as well as Denon 103s, EMTs and a Sumiko Blue Point (Special).
At the moment I'm listening to an Ortofon MC200 (admittedly in an SME 3009 Improved arm), but the point is the oft-quoted statement that knife edge bearings do not suit moving coil cartridges is an erroneous misconception and one that is not supported in reality.
Alistair Robertson-Aikman developed the SME arm for his own use, and deliberately chose the Ortofon bayonet style coupling arrangement because he wanted to use Ortofon SPU cartridges.
I have a S2 none improved and find that the SPU GT is the best cart I've ever heard.
Great to hear.
Yes - I've used several Ortofon MCs in an SME 3009 II. (SPU GE, S-15TE, SL15E, SL15E/II, MC25FL) as well as Denon 103s, EMTs and a Sumiko Blue Point (Special).
At the moment I'm listening to an Ortofon MC200 (admittedly in an SME 3009 Improved arm), but the point is the oft-quoted statement that knife edge bearings do not suit moving coil cartridges is an erroneous misconception and one that is not supported in reality.
Alistair Robertson-Aikman developed the SME arm for his own use, and deliberately chose the Ortofon bayonet style coupling arrangement because he wanted to use Ortofon SPU cartridges.
Interesting stuff. The more I hear from people who have experience of using the non improved it is clear that they are fairly flexible tonearms. I'm certainly keen to try MC in the future. Will look up some of the ortofon MC you mention, are there any mid price easy to get hold of ortofon MCs that are a clear favourite?
If MC’s are fine in a 3009, why didn’t SME recommend any?
walpurgis
26-02-2019, 20:26
I seem to recall back then, SME being in a sort of unspoken partnership with Shure. I have vague memories of SME brochures with pictures of V15 cartridges mounted in the arms.
I seem to recall back then, SME being in a sort of unspoken partnership with Shure. I have vague memories of SME brochures with pictures of V15 cartridges mounted in the arms.
Think some SME tonearms (in the States?) where actually badged Shure.
If MC’s are fine in a 3009, why didn’t SME recommend any?
Is it the case they clearly did not recommend them or was MC just generally less of an option for consumers in the mid 60's market?
walpurgis
26-02-2019, 21:15
MC's had become a little unfashionable as the race to produce high compliance cartridges with minimal tracking downforce was well established by 1970. Makes like Empire, ADC, Ortofon and Shure vying to claim the lowest tracking force crown. At the time it was all about trackability and tonal characteristics became secondary.
At that time, there were really only two makers of MC cartridges. More commonly, Ortofon, but if you tracked them down Micro Seiki could also be found. Neither sold in great quanities, there wasn't the demand.
Still prefer a good mm overall. Its got more going for it on so many levels.
I seem to recall back then, SME being in a sort of unspoken partnership with Shure. I have vague memories of SME brochures with pictures of V15 cartridges mounted in the arms.
Shure were the US distributor for SME. There they were referred to as "Shure SME", this title appearing on the badge on the headshell. I have one.
SME didn't explicitly recommend any cartridge as such, but they were advertised showing them fitted with the Shure M55E and later with the Shure V15 II and V15 III.
The advertisement of an SME fitted with an M55E was the reason I bought one to fit in my newly acquired SME arm. Yes I know that is not the best way of going about in choosing a cartridge, but it was nearly 50 years ago and I was a novice.
As I have reported above, the SME arm was designed initially to take an Ortofon SPU. The arms were initially sold without a headshell because of that. Headshells were available as an optional extra and the first (the S1) was made for SME by Ortofon but badged "SME". They were the whale-shaped Ortofon G type shells as used to house the SPU.
Alistair Roberson-Aikman also commissioned a couple of moving coil cartridges to be made for him by the British company EMG during the development of the SME.
So no, SME did not explicitly recommend any moving coil cartridge as such, but when they introduced the FD200 fluid damper, the advertisements for it did display graphs showing its effect on the arm/cartridge resonant frequency for Fidelity Research and Satin moving coil cartridges, amongst others.
Shure were the US distributor for SME. There they were referred to as "Shure SME", this title appearing on the badge on the headshell. I have one.
SME didn't explicitly recommend any cartridge as such, but they were advertised showing them fitted with the Shure M55E and later with the Shure V15 II and V15 III.
The advertisement of an SME fitted with an M55E was the reason I bought one to fit in my newly acquired SME arm. Yes I know that is not the best way of going about in choosing a cartridge, but it was nearly 50 years ago and I was a novice.
As I have reported above, the SME arm was designed initially to take an Ortofon SPU. The arms were initially sold without a headshell because of that. Headshells were available as an optional extra and the first (the S1) was made for SME by Ortofon but badged "SME". They were the whale-shaped Ortofon G type shells as used to house the SPU.
Alistair Roberson-Aikman also commissioned a couple of moving coil cartridges to be made for him by the British company EMG during the development of the SME.
So no, SME did not explicitly recommend any moving coil cartridge as such, but when they introduced the FD200 fluid damper, the advertisements for it did display graphs showing its effect on the arm/cartridge resonant frequency for Fidelity Research and Satin moving coil cartridges, amongst others.
Great post Barry.
The same 3009 I referred to has had my Dynavector DV20-H used on it.
I have not ever heard this cartridge since I purchased it from
HiFi World in 2000ish :mental: .
The 3009 owner seriously rated it against his MM's and tried to buy it.
He borrowed it again at Xmas and compared it to the K'b, he still highly rates it.
The same 3009 I referred to has had my Dynavector DV20-H used on it.
I have not ever heard this cartridge since I purchased it from
HiFi World in 2000ish :mental: .
The 3009 owner seriously rated it against his MM's and tried to buy it.
He borrowed it again at Xmas and compared it to the K'b, he still highly rates it.
Cheers will look that one up.
I would stick to trying cartridges on SME’S list, unless you have a good rapport with a dealer who will let you buy and return the cartridge if not happy, otherwise, buying cartidges can be an expensive game.
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