View Full Version : Oxidation and the importance of well terminated speaker cables...
I've been having a lot of trouble recently with the sound of my system going off.
After much mucking about I finally traced it to oxidation of the cheap spades on my Van Damme Hifi speaker cable.
At 1st I went bare back but I found the sound would go off again after a few days. I didn't expect this as I thought oxidation of bare cable would take much longer.
Anyway, I finally bit the bullet and bought some red copper Gaofei spades from ebay, some silver plated crimp tubes and a crimping tool.
I put it all together and covered the open parts of the spade with heatshrink and voila, lovely sounds and so far it hasn't gone off!
I'm not sure why the banana plugs at the speaker end haven't also gone off but maybe they were better attached when I bought the cable.
Just thought I'd share my findings in case anyone else has experienced oxidation or just to stimulate some discussion :)
RobbieGong
17-02-2019, 19:38
Hi Tony, thanks.
When you say the sound would go off with bare wire, can you elaborate please :)
Sherwood
17-02-2019, 19:46
I've been having a lot of trouble recently with the sound of my system going off.
After much mucking about I finally traced it to oxidation of the cheap spades on my Van Damme Hifi speaker cable.
At 1st I went bare back but I found the sound would go off again after a few days. I didn't expect this as I thought oxidation of bare cable would take much longer.
Anyway, I finally bit the bullet and bought some red copper Gaofei spades from ebay, some silver plated crimp tubes and a crimping tool.
I put it all together and covered the open parts of the spade with heatshrink and voila, lovely sounds and so far it hasn't gone off!
I'm not sure why the banana plugs at the speaker end haven't also gone off but maybe they were better attached when I bought the cable.
Just thought I'd share my findings in case anyone else has experienced oxidation or just to stimulate some discussion :)
I have often found the opposite to be true. When I use unterminated cable I typical apply a little solder to the cable tips to stop the cable fraying/unravelling. When I tighten the screws on the cable the screws typically cut through the oxidised top surface and exposes some fresh cable under the pressure applied.
Often though, I use terminated speaker cable just for the convenience of connecting cables.
Geoff
Hi Tony, thanks.
When you say the sound would go off with bare wire, can you elaborate please :)
What I meant was that when I cut the ends to reveal some fresh cable and then connect using the bare ends it would sound great for a day or two and then the sound would go a little dull.
Terminating the ends the way I described has resulted in the sound not going a little dull.
I guess I'm just surprised that a newly cut bare wire would go off so quick but hey ho nothing surprises me in this game...
RobbieGong
17-02-2019, 22:08
What I meant was that when I cut the ends to reveal some fresh cable and then connect using the bare ends it would sound great for a day or two and then the sound would go a little dull.
Terminating the ends the way I described has resulted in the sound not going a little dull.
I guess I'm just surprised that a newly cut bare wire would go off so quick but hey ho nothing surprises me in this game...
Interesting, I've never heard of that before :scratch:
Bare wire is prefered by some as it's a direct connection which should be good.
Be interesting to fond out if anyone else has had the same experience
Light Dependant Resistor
17-02-2019, 22:11
What I meant was that when I cut the ends to reveal some fresh cable and then connect using the bare ends it would sound great for a day or two and then the sound would go a little dull.
Terminating the ends the way I described has resulted in the sound not going a little dull.
I guess I'm just surprised that a newly cut bare wire would go off so quick but hey ho nothing surprises me in this game...
Key areas for removing contacts altogether are where voltage and current are low. Both volume controls and signal switching as example
can be contact-less
Ideally contact-less methods of audio signal transfer, where ever possible should be used. Speaker binding posts are very convenient
but really should be soldered end to end- if we can overcome the inconvenience barrier.
Years ago, I had the usual OFC Monster Cable on my speakers, it was the best available at that time, before the cable market exploded. And I also soldered the tip to prevent fraying, and cranked down on the 5 way binding posts of my then Adcom 555 amp.
Hearing the losses you describe, I kept cranking down on the terminals until I finally broke them off! After a few years of retightening. So, I soldered the speaker wire directly to the amp! It worked so well i soldered the other side to the amp as well! No more issues, for 10 years I never had to fret with that end of the wire. But, the speaker end I had less trouble with for some reason.
Today, I also got those red copper spades from eBay and used a copper tube to crimp and solder the wire before adding the spades and the shrink tubing to pretty it up. These big red copper spades work wonders under the big wing nut speaker terminals on the Krell, and were fitted with those expensive banana lugs on the speaker end, which I have not changed. These bananas expand and lock themselves in the hole, and make a very good connection it would seem. Some expensive Legacy speaker wires the gent included in the sale of the Legacy speakers, they were much better than the wires I was using, so I’ve stayed with them.
Russell
I also got those red copper spades from eBay and used a copper tube to crimp and solder the wire before adding the spades and the shrink tubing to pretty it up.Russell
I never soldered the tip but as the rest is gas tight I'm hoping any oxidation will be minimal.
I'd love to try some upmarket cable but as I need 10m a channel my options are limited...
cant say ive had that effect. cable shouldnt oxidize that quick i wouldn't have thought.
IME if you use bare speaker cable then it does oxidise over time (months not days) and stripping it back to fresh adds a bit of leading edge and sparkle back to the sound.
So agree there is an effect but can't see it happening in days. Maybe it depends how oxygen-free the copper wire is?
IME if you use bare speaker cable then it does oxidise over time (months not days) and stripping it back to fresh adds a bit of leading edge and sparkle back to the sound. So agree there is an effect but can't see it happening in days. Maybe it depends how oxygen-free the copper wire is?
Well unless something else was at play it happened with my cables...
Haselsh1
18-02-2019, 11:26
Always amuses the hell out of me when people refer to it as oxidisation
;)
Well whatever, you know what I mean.
Always amuses the hell out of me when people refer to it as oxidisation
;)
Why?
Taken from Wikipedia (my emphasis):
Copper does not react with water, but it does slowly react with atmospheric oxygen to form a layer of brown-black copper oxide which, unlike the rust that forms on iron in moist air, protects the underlying metal from further corrosion (passivation). A green layer of verdigris (copper carbonate) can often be seen on old copper structures, such as the roofing of many older buildings and the Statue of Liberty. Copper tarnishes when exposed to some sulfur compounds, with which it reacts to form various copper sulfides.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copper_wire_comparison.JPG
I never soldered the tip but as the rest is gas tight I'm hoping any oxidation will be minimal.
I'd love to try some upmarket cable but as I need 10m a channel my options are limited...
The factory ends did not have any solder, and WBT doesn’t recommend any solder. It’s just my own OCD to overdo everything. The spade is still not soldered to the crimp tube, I cranked down on the two set screws as hard as I could, and all seems to be good.
Russell
I have seen stereo systems set up for decades that just get dusted once and a while using AC zip cord with no ill effects , Cars are a different story , they are exposed to massive amounts of moisture and extreme temperature changes. I have seen cheap clear speaker wire turn green inside and in boats actually corrode away till it fails.
If you are having this problem in your home a dehumidifier is clearly needed.
This is the best stuff I have ever seen for resisting moisture and it really resists micro phonics on hard surfaces or in noisy RF environments. It is directional so look for the small arrows. Audison Connexion cable.
https://www.carsound.co.uk/connection/connection-s210-10awg-40m-roll-of-reference-grade-speaker-cable/page/4
https://www.raysmith.co.uk/connection-audison/connection-sonus-s210-s-series-reference-audiophile-speaker-cable-10-gauge-silver/page/5/
My understanding is that metal corrosion is driven by electrochemical processes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion) and are greatest with a greater difference between the metals. Could it be that the end of the cables that corroded quickly had different metal types (copper cable, gold connector for example) where as the ends that didn't corrode had metals that were not so dissimilar (copper cable, copper alloy connector ?)
My understanding is that metal corrosion is driven by electrochemical processes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion) and are greatest with a greater difference between the metals. Could it be that the end of the cables that corroded quickly had different metal types (copper cable, gold connector for example) where as the ends that didn't corrode had metals that were not so dissimilar (copper cable, copper alloy connector ?)
That is actually called disimaler metals corosion.
There is also such a thing as inerrgranular corosion .
The oxidisatation he is experiencing is most likely caused by humidity.I am not saying electrochemistry is not playing a roll here , but it is not the largest factor. At the rate he is experiencing moisture would be my first suspect. For copper to oxidize in just a few days his house must be like Vietnam in summer.
Even under electalisys it takes months for disimaler metals to interact to the point he is talking about.
Spray your connections with deoxit if the problem continues and move on with your life.
Haselsh1
21-02-2019, 17:06
Why?
Taken from Wikipedia (my emphasis):
Copper does not react with water, but it does slowly react with atmospheric oxygen to form a layer of brown-black copper oxide which, unlike the rust that forms on iron in moist air, protects the underlying metal from further corrosion (passivation). A green layer of verdigris (copper carbonate) can often be seen on old copper structures, such as the roofing of many older buildings and the Statue of Liberty. Copper tarnishes when exposed to some sulfur compounds, with which it reacts to form various copper sulfides.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copper_wire_comparison.JPG
In the scientific community there is no such word as oxidisation. The word is oxidation.
Haselsh1
21-02-2019, 17:08
Well whatever, you know what I mean.
Wasn't having a dig at anyone on here. I haven't seen the wrong terminology used here ever.
would be my first suspect. For copper to oxidize in just a few days his house must be like Vietnam in summer.
.
Oxidation problem will start to look trivial by next January when the Tet Offensive starts.
I knew that Veitnam comment would not go unnoticed but the humidity point just had to be driven home in a meaningful way.
If copper really is being corroded to the point contacts are broken down in just a few days, all I can think of is his body chemistry must be both salty and acidic touching the wire and the problem agsasserbated by extream humidity.
I have seen this happen with guns, some people just can't touch blued fire arms with out causing them to rust right through the bluewing after a couple weeks.
Others like me can leave finger prints and a year later nothing , no rust . It can just be him touching the copper conductor and humidity doing the rest. In that case deoxit will solve the problem.
These budget Audion speaker wires where hooked up 8 years ago.
At our store and remained untouched till today. The jacket to spite being run in a bright sunny window sill is a little yellowed but still soft and flexible with no degradation to the wire at all.
If you look carefully the wire has little arrows and the printed side is positive the negative side is braided in reverse direction and is marked -------.
All there cables are very low capacitance and has very low DC resistance. For not a large sum of money they are exceptional , this is their budget wire BTW.
14 AWG. is 1.63 MM.
This stuff spent 8 years being run 12 hours a day I unhooked the amp and speakers to put in my son Conner's room as we are changing our store a little and the stereo won't be needed .
I was surprised after unhooking everything how good this wire still is ,look at the bare conductors! I am going to re use it in Conner's room. This stuff continues to impress me.
These budget Audion speaker wires where hooked up 8 years ago.
At our store and remained untouched till today. The jacket to spite being run in a bright sunny window sill is a little yellowed but still soft and flexible with no degradation to the wire at all.
If you look carefully the wire has little arrows and the printed side is positive the negative side is braided in reverse direction and is marked -------.
All there cables are very low capacitance and has very low DC resistance. For not a large sum of money they are exceptional , this is their budget wire BTW.
14 AWG. is 1.63 MM.
This stuff spent 8 years being run 12 hours a day I unhooked the amp and speakers to put in my son Conner's room as we are changing our store a little and the stereo won't be needed .
I was surprised after unhooking everything how good this wire still is ,look at the bare conductors! I am going to re use it in Conner's room. This stuff continues to impress me.
It's not just your speaker external cables you need to consider but if you can take the drive units out easily then have a look how they are connected. To my horror I found both my tweeters and mid/bass units were connected to the crossover board with spade terminals at both speaker and board so 8 spade terminals that had all oxidised over 30 years! Removing the oxidation had a significant effect as it did cleaning my valve pins, fuses ........
It's not just your speaker external cables you need to consider but if you can take the drive units out easily then have a look how they are connected. To my horror I found both my tweeters and mid/bass units were connected to the crossover board with spade terminals at both speaker and board so 8 spade terminals that had all oxidised over 30 years! Removing the oxidation had a significant effect as it did cleaning my valve pins, fuses ........
All my internal connections are soldered so no problem, but this all started because the OP had problems with his speaker wire corroding servilely with in a couple days.
Light Dependant Resistor
22-02-2019, 16:53
All my internal connections are soldered so no problem, but this all started because the OP had problems with his speaker wire corroding servilely with in a couple days.
Would that include your preamp/attenuator internal volume control, and preamp/attenuator signal switching ?
Making these contact-less is not hard.
Would that include your preamp/attenuator internal volume control, and preamp/attenuator signal switching ?
Making these contact-less is not hard.
Deoxit, for cleaning controls pots ,but that is not what the OP needed help with.
As a follow up to this thread, I discovered today that one of the spades on the jumper leads to the speakers had come loose and was causing the issue that I complained about.
The jumper wire is quite close to the rear wall and when I was pulling my hair out trying to figure why the sound kept going off I did play with the positioning of the speakers and likley at times broke the connection and at other times pushed it together! This lead me to believe that the problem lay with the amp speaker connections when it was the other end!
Anyway, I have now fitted a new spade to the jumper and the sound is lovely and crisp again!
I knew something was wrong just didn't get to the right end of it!
winstonmalcolm
05-03-2019, 19:24
Always amuses the hell out of me when people refer to it as oxidisation
;)
I believe oxidisation is the correct term.
Noun 1. oxidisation - the process of oxidizingoxidisation - the process of oxidizing; the addition of oxygen to a compound with a loss of electrons; always occurs accompanied by reduction
oxidation, oxidization
calcination - the conversion of metals into their oxides as a result of heating to a high temperature
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/oxidisation
If you polish a piece of copper and leave it for a day and then polish it again (or another piece) you will see the difference. Many metals react with oxygen in the air. That process speeds up with the application of heat hence the use of flux when stick welding or soldering to protect in the former and clean in the latter.
I give my connections a re-seat about once a month.
Oxidation problem will start to look trivial by next January when the Tet Offensive starts.
Tet Offensive?
Tet Offensive?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive
Haselsh1
07-03-2019, 08:58
Of course if your contacts are gold or gold plated then oxidation will not occur anyway.
Light Dependant Resistor
07-03-2019, 09:30
Although there are certain chemicals that can dissolve gold, this information from Wikipedia provides a fascinating piece of history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia
"'When Germany invaded Denmark in World War II, Hungarian chemist George de Hevesy dissolved the gold Nobel Prizes of German physicists Max von Laue (1914) and James Franck (1925) in aqua regia to prevent the Nazis from confiscating them. The German government had prohibited Germans from accepting or keeping any Nobel Prize after jailed peace activist Carl von Ossietzky had received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1935. De Hevesy placed the resulting solution on a shelf in his laboratory at the Niels Bohr Institute. It was subsequently ignored by the Nazis who thought the jar—one of perhaps hundreds on the shelving—contained common chemicals. After the war, de Hevesy returned to find the solution undisturbed and precipitated the gold out of the acid. The gold was returned to the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences and the Nobel Foundation. They re-cast the medals and again presented them to Laue and Franck.[11][12]"
Haselsh1
07-03-2019, 11:17
Have used aqua regia countless times in the past as well as chromic acid another nasty bugger of a chemical cocktail.
Have used aqua regia countless times in the past as well as chromic acid another nasty bugger of a chemical cocktail.
Nasty, but not as nasty as hydrofluoric acid.
Haselsh1
07-03-2019, 19:04
Nasty, but not as nasty as hydrofluoric acid.
LOL, I guess that would depend on whether you came into contact with it or not. I spent ten years of my chemistry career working on the development of organphosphate pesticides like Diazinon, Curacron, Methacriphos and Iodofenphos. These required a mandatory blood test every month to test for poisoning. I also did a lot of development work on a chemical called cypermethrin. This was permethrin with cyanide groups added to increase its effectiveness. That required the daily use of Sodium Cyanide as a solid powder. Any of these substances could and would kill you, it's all a case of relativity I guess. By the way, I'd like to guess that most of the substances I've mentioned are now banned.
Demetris
06-11-2020, 13:28
Hello everybody.
I am in the market for spades and speaker cable. So I am glad to find this post here. You are mentioning red copper spades... Isn't copper supposed to be prawn to corrosion? and isn't it why there is so many coated connectors out there in the first place? Is red copper much less prawn to corrosion than normal copper? So much that it would be recommended? Some people say about bare cable connections, but on the other hand it's being said that connectors exist not only for convenience but also to avoid corrosion of bare cable. Your thoughts on these please. Also what do you know/think about silver plated connectors?
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