View Full Version : 2M Black Upgrade
I have always been a massive fan of the 2M Black cartridge and have used this now for 4 years. I have tried many other cartridges but have decided that in my system the 2M Black has excellent synergy and a dynamic detailed resolution that can match the quality of many MC cartridges I have listened too. I have replaced the stylus once in the last 4 years at a cost of £360 and as I have not heard anything better, either MM or MC I decided that I would keep this cartridge as my daily driver for some time yet and just keeping changing the stylus.
However sometime back Rob (RobbieGong) tweaked my curiosity when he had his Cadenza Black upgraded by Holistic Audio with a new stylus. I thought this was a brave and leftfield decision considering the Cadenza Black is already a stunning MC Cartridge with an excellent Stylus. This upgrade paid off for Rob and took his cartridge to another level so I decided to contact Holistic audio to ascertain if they could improve on the 2M Black MM cartridge. After some communication with Kilian at Holistic Audio I found that indeed they had an upgrade "recipe" for the 2M which included a Fritz Gyger S stylus replacement for the line contact stylus and some internal cartridge work which included an upgraded damper and checking of the coil poles alignment for better channel separation.
So I decided that I would have the work done but wanted to keep my existing 2M in original condition as I wanted a benchmark to hear what the upgrade bought to the party and also wanted to preserve the sound I already had. This necessitated the acquisition of a donor used cartridge which was acquired at a reasonable price. I sent off the cartridge to Holistic Audio and must say had excellent communication from Kilian during the whole process.
The process actually started with a thorough detailed technical inspection in order to ascertain whether my cartridge was suitable for the upgrade and it was. About a week later it returned.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7915/32159294837_28e98d805e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QZNMWD)IMG_1449 (https://flic.kr/p/QZNMWD) by ckr
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2dEeaV1]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7808/46377570414_775d326ca8_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)IMG_1450 (https://flic.kr/p/2dEeaV1) by J (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
The Fritz Gyger S Stylus.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7806/32159294027_1c2f2615ea_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QZNMGF)IMG_1453 (https://flic.kr/p/QZNMGF) by n Flickr
The cartridge had already been fully tested and so I ran it in for a few days after carefully setting up on the VPI turntable.
[U]THE SOUND
The upgraded 2M Black was not meant to be changed beyond recognition but just subtly enhanced and some of the negative areas of its design improved on. Obviously changing the stylus from a line contact Shibata to the Fritz Gyger was quite a significant change and this is one area the 2M Black has become a cartridge which has divided opinion. The Shibata stylus is notoriously difficult to set up and for some notoriously difficult to like as it can have an etched top end and digs out every flaw on your record. I have never had any problem with this stylus in my system apart from the difficulty in setting it up and the edgy top end!:)
The Upgraded 2M Black with the Fritz Gyger bought a calmness to the proceedings along with the upgraded damping. Actually the cartridge did weigh a little more compared to the standard 2M when I set it up so something significant must have been added.
The sound was much more full bodied and smoother with a very solid stereo image. The original 2M could sound a little fragile in this respect. Not only was the sound fuller but the soundstage depth in particular was hugely improved, I could hear very deep into the recorded material now and the rendition of acoustic detail was much clearer. In particular space and the acoustic environment the vocalists or instruments were recorded in was greatly enhanced which gave you the impression you were hearing a lot more detail. This extra depth gave the sound a wonderful 3 dimensional quality.
The SP2 speakers I use are highly transparent and excel in their presentation of midrange material especially vocals and here you could evaluate the much greater quality the Fritz Gyger bought to the proceedings. The level of micro and macro detail bought vocals up to a level that made you sometimes feel you were listening to a different recording. My two favourite vocalists, Agnes Obel and Aldous Harding were sublime. The FGS stylus revealed tonal colour and detail in their voices that presented them so lifelike and real in the room. It must be remembered this stylus , or a version of it, is used in the very top MC cartridges Ortofon manufacture so you are getting a taste of the very highest level of cartridge design.
To say the upgrade was a huge success would be an understatement. For me it has bought about a level of analogue sound in my system I never thought possible and revealed and presented well known recordings in a manner that makes your jaw drop. I have had a few spine tingling moments with this new version of the 2M black which take me back to my early days when I started listening to my system. So I would say the Upgrade is an unqualified success which leaves me with one issue, I now have to upgrade my other standard 2M to the same level as going back to listening to it will not be easy!
I would just like to say thanks to all those who have influenced me in making this happen and especially to Kilian at Holistic Audio who is an extremely talented cartridge technician and someone who is an absolute pleasure to deal with.
Firebottle
17-02-2019, 06:59
Fantastic James, who would have thought it?
:yay:
nice! is it still a nightmare to set up with the different profiled tip?
and the all important question,how much did it cost?
nice! is it still a nightmare to set up with the different profiled tip?
and the all important question,how much did it cost?
Hi Jamie, No it is easier to set up than the Shibata stylus,
The cost worked out at £300, so less than a replacement stylus!
Hi James
Glad the new tip really works, quite often they're not upto the original standard and the fact it works so good is a bonus considering it costs less than a new stylus
Steve...
Hi James
Glad the new tip really works, quite often they're not upto the original standard and the fact it works so good is a bonus considering it costs less than a new stylus
Steve...
Hi Steve,
It was well worth doing in every respect. Can't recommend the upgrade more highly.
topoxforddoc
17-02-2019, 09:05
That's a great result and helpful to know of someone else who rebuilds cartridges. The FGS profile is very close to a cutting head. The Ortofon Replicant profile his very similar too. Good to know that someone can fit a FGS to a MM in Europe.
Fantastic James, who would have thought it?
:yay:
I was surprised that this work could be done to the 2M and even more so with the upgrade in SQ.
Bigman80
17-02-2019, 09:21
Yes, I've heard this guys work first hand.
He's obviously very skilled as the results are really impressive. I do plan on having my Kb done by this guy with a fgs stylus and also have a few little bits added to the insides to push the performance up to the level of the Ortofon Vienna, or as close to it as possible.
He also did some work for JohnG who I believe is over the moon with the work he did on his Kb. It is indeed very useful to know of this guy as I believe his background was in ortofon cartridges previously, so I will certainly be looking to use his expertise to eek a little bit more out of my system.
Well done Jim for being brave enough to send your cartridge off and stray from the beaten path a little bit. It's often very rewarding when you have something unique, especially something as unique as a 2m black with an fgs stylus
enjoy it mate!
brian2957
17-02-2019, 09:42
Excellent mate . You took a punt and it paid off :)
Do you know if he does this kind of work on lesser cartridges , or is it only the Black and above ?
Yes, I've heard this guys work first hand.
He's obviously very skilled as the results are really impressive. I do plan on having my Kb done by this guy with a fgs stylus and also have a few little bits added to the insides to push the performance up to the level of the Ortofon Vienna, or as close to it as possible.
He also did some work for JohnG who I believe is over the moon with the work he did on his Kb. It is indeed very useful to know of this guy as I believe his background was in ortofon cartridges previously, so I will certainly be looking to use his expertise to eek a little bit more out of my system.
Well done Jim for being brave enough to send your cartridge off and stray from the beaten path a little bit. It's often very rewarding when you have something unique, especially something as unique as a 2m black with an fgs stylus
enjoy it mate!
It is always a risk as you know going into the unknown especially when your spending a bit of cash but this one is definitely one of my better choices. And yes you do end up with something rather special.
Excellent mate . You took a punt and it paid off :)
Do you know if he does this kind of work on lesser cartridges , or is it only the Black and above ?
Hi Brian,
Not sure if he does work on other cartridges beside Ortofon but it maybe well to ask him.There is nothing on the net about the 2M Black upgrade so I just asked if he could do anything and he said he had a "recipe" that has been done before.
Great write up as always James.
I like that you got a second one to send off for the upgrade, that was a smart move. There's always that danger of losing what you had and not being able to get it back.
Great write up as always James.
I like that you got a second one to send off for the upgrade, that was a smart move. There's always that danger of losing what you had and not being able to get it back.
Cheers Martin,
Yes I was a bit cautious so thought that would be the best measure.
RobbieGong
17-02-2019, 14:27
Hi James,
Was at church so just back :)
Brilliant news ! and I commend you for having the balls and vision to look to see if the Fritz Gyger S could be posssible on the 2MB :clapclapclap:
As I reported here and as you know, I contemplated what to do next when my Cadenza Blacks tip finally wore out on me.
It would have been easy to follow the 'status quo' / 'done thing' and had it retipped / refurbed by Ortofon and I was pretty close to doing that.
BUT, thankfully I received an email form my mate Angus again advising and recommending that I seek to leave it in the capable hands of Kilian Bakker of Holistic Audio.
Angus was literally blown away by what he had done with his Ortofon Vienna and the effects of the FGS re-tip on it.
The more I thought about it the more it made sense.
At the time I also looked into the Frtiz Gyger S profile and knew it was a very top notch stylus profile indeed - the fact Ortofon use that type of profile in it's Replicant on all it's high end carts above the excellent Cadenza Black, including the Windfelds, Anna and its £8K Limited Edition Anniversary Century :eek: - speaks for itself really.
Again and as I fed back previously here - Cadenza B refurb by Ortofon = just shy £1K.
Hollistic Audio - Complete overhaul of Cadenza Black innards, damping, coils etc, plus Fritz Gyger S retip upgrade = less than half the above = NO brainer in my book and I wasnt wrong.
Having set up and nailed the sweet spot, I can say categorically that I have never ever heard replay from my system like it, ever - period.
The extraction of recorded information presented has been a revelation and jaw dropper - It's a cart / stylus profile that says "So you think you know your fave tracks ? - think again because this is the real / far nearer the actual recording"
From 2M Black to Quintet Black to Cadenza Black were subtle and definite upgrades. The Cadenza Black original Shibata to FGS profile is a big notch up in terms of true hifi-delity and what that means.
I could go on further but keeping things simple - The FGS profile is thin and long so it gets right in. Not only that, its contact area is large this results in it extracting untold info from the groove walls / recording in a way that other stylus's as good as they can be, simply cant. A spoon cannot scoop up as much as a spade ;)
Angus told me that it has to be FGS for him from now on and I absolutley feel the same. When this one eventually goes, I'll go the same route again, no question.
Genius move James, to consider having it done on the 2MB, genius !
Welcome to the realms and revelation of 'true hi-fidelity' I'm well chuffed for you, but you deserve it for thinking outside of the usual and daring to not walk the same old 'safe' tried and tested road - bravo !
You thought it was so good before didnt you....... ?! .... ;) :)
Hi Jamie, No it is easier to set up than the Shibata stylus,
The cost worked out at £300, so less than a replacement stylus!
thats very reasonable jim,well done mate. if he does AT cartridges i might try that myself.
Hi James,
Was at church so just back :)
Brilliant news ! and I commend you for having the balls and vision to look to see if the Fritz Gyger S could be posssible on the 2MB :clapclapclap:
As I reported here and as you know, I contemplated what to do next when my Cadenza Blacks tip finally wore out on me.
It would have been easy to follow the 'status quo' / 'done thing' and had it retipped / refurbed by Ortofon and I was pretty close to doing that.
BUT, thankfully I received an email form my mate Angus again advising and recommending that I seek to leave it in the capable hands of Kilian Bakker of Holistic Audio.
Angus was literally blown away by what he had done with his Ortofon Vienna and the effects of the FGS re-tip on it.
The more I thought about it the more it made sense.
At the time I also looked into the Frtiz Gyger S profile and knew it was a very top notch stylus profile indeed - the fact Ortofon use that type of profile in it's Replicant on all it's high end carts above the excellent Cadenza Black, including the Windfelds, Anna and its £8K Limited Edition Anniversary Century :eek: - speaks for itself really.
Again and as I fed back previously here - Cadenza B refurb by Ortofon = just shy £1K.
Hollistic Audio - Complete overhaul of Cadenza Black innards, damping, coils etc, plus Fritz Gyger S retip upgrade = less than half the above = NO brainer in my book and I wasnt wrong.
Having set up and nailed the sweet spot, I can say categorically that I have never ever heard replay from my system like it, ever - period.
The extraction of recorded information presented has been a revelation and jaw dropper - It's a cart / stylus profile that says "So you think you know your fave tracks ? - think again because this is the real / far nearer the actual recording"
From 2M Black to Quintet Black to Cadenza Black were subtle and definite upgrades. The Cadenza Black original Shibata to FGS profile is a big notch up in terms of true hifi-delity and what that means.
I could go on further but keeping things simple - The FGS profile is thin and long so it gets right in. Not only that, its contact area is large this results in it extracting untold info from the groove walls / recording in a way that other stylus's as good as they can be, simply cant. A spoon cannot scoop up as much as a spade ;)
Angus told me that it has to be FGS for him from now on and I absolutley feel the same. When this one eventually goes, I'll go the same route again, no question.
Genius move James, to consider having it done on the 2MB, genius !
Welcome to the realms and revelation of 'true hi-fidelity' I'm well chuffed for you, but you deserve it for thinking outside of the usual and daring to not walk the same old 'safe' tried and tested road - bravo !
You thought it was so good before didnt you....... ?! .... ;) :)
Hi Rob,
I have to thank you for the inspiration to do it. Although I know a few people on here know about Holistic Audio, it was your experience that got me thinking what if..... I did not imagine the 2M could be improved but as you have found with the FGS stylus it takes it to another level altogether. Kilians work and service is superb and he has the skill and ability to transform cartridges to something that is already good into something very special indeed.
I am going to enjoy this experience as I now have to rediscover my record collection which could take some time!!
And as you said Rob, I thought the 2M was good before but now......:eek:
RobbieGong
17-02-2019, 17:03
Good on ya James,
As you already know, you're now in for a treat. In fact on some recordings you've long been familiar with you're going to be astonished ;)
fletchdirect
17-02-2019, 17:14
wonder how this would compare to an Ortofon 540 which has the fritz gyger....
bbbiker800
17-02-2019, 17:20
This is all very useful...... I have bronze 2m. Its got me wondering as I was thinking if the upgrade to black would be a good idea (considering all the set up aggravation) but if this is cheaper and easier to setup (RP3 - 2015). I actually like the bronze so this could be a win-win.
Someone put me off the idea please?!?
Regards Richard
This is all very useful...... I have bronze 2m. Its got me wondering as I was thinking if the upgrade to black would be a good idea (considering all the set up aggravation) but if this is cheaper and easier to setup (RP3 - 2015). I actually like the bronze so this could be a win-win.
Someone put me off the idea please?!?
Regards Richard
I certainly don't think you would be disappointed, the internals of the Bronze are the same as the Black so you could end up with the same cartridge I am listening too!
Good on ya James,
As you already know, you're now in for a treat. In fact on some recordings you've long been familiar with you're going to be astonished ;)
Tonal quality is wonderful, listening to trumpets and trombones on some jazz material sound much more natural and fleshed out as it were. Last night I was listening to a lot of guitar material, both steel stringed and nylon and the 2M upgrade nailed exactly the right texture and micro details flying off the strings.
Just listening to London Grammar at the moment and Hannahs voice is to die for but what is truly amazing is the increase in detail of the acoustic reverb.
Rob your not kidding about listening to familiar material you thought you knew, I am astonished mate!
RobbieGong
17-02-2019, 19:28
Tonal quality is wonderful, listening to trumpets and trombones on some jazz material sound much more natural and fleshed out as it were. Last night I was listening to a lot of guitar material, both steel stringed and nylon and the 2M upgrade nailed exactly the right texture and micro details flying off the strings.
Just listening to London Grammar at the moment and Hannahs voice is to die for but what is truly amazing is the increase in detail of the acoustic reverb.
Rob your not kidding about listening to familiar material you thought you knew, I am astonished mate!
:) One other thing that really took me was the way wood sounds like wood, the cuff of the stick against the rim is so ... well woody :D and as you say, textures of drums, toms and so on are spot on and perfectly differentiated
There are so many areas this upgrade improves on. The sheer power and bass dynamics I am getting are way better than standard 2M. I can only imagine what this must sound like through some large full range speakers. The see through clarity and revealing nature of this stylus do make your jaw drop, if ever there was an example of real Hi Rez this cartridge would do the term justice.
Probably the best upgrade I have ever made in my system:)
bbbiker800
17-02-2019, 20:34
I certainly don't think you would be disappointed, the internals of the Bronze are the same as the Black so you could end up with the same cartridge I am listening too!
Thanks for that. My kit doesn't have the resolution of yours /Robbies but it sounds like a strong upgrade nonetheless. Can you share what u needed to change to set it up? Bear in mind mines a lowly Rega!
Thanks for that. My kit doesn't have the resolution of yours /Robbies but it sounds like a strong upgrade nonetheless. Can you share what u needed to change to set it up? Bear in mind mines a lowly Rega!
Do you want to know what was done technically to the cartridge Richard?
bbbiker800
17-02-2019, 22:57
Do you want to know what was done technically to the cartridge Richard?
Sorry I should have been clearer! The question is about what u had to do to get the cartridge set up and aligned. My Bronze has been setup originally by the dealer and double checked by me with a decent protractor. From what you said, this stylus was easier/quicker that the standard black stylus.
I’m sure jumbo will agree, but the alignment is the easy bit with the 2m, the fussy time consuming bit is the setting of the sra/vat and tracking force, all 3 impact the other so it’s a long process of small increments going back and forth,
The pay off is when you get it right it’s fantastic!
RobbieGong
18-02-2019, 08:20
Jumbo?
:lol: Thats because the upgrade is so good he feels like he can fly :D
Wakefield Turntables
18-02-2019, 08:58
My cadenza black is nearing the end of its life so it looks like it's going to get the FGS stylus.
RobbieGong
18-02-2019, 09:28
My cadenza black is nearing the end of its life so it looks like it's going to get the FGS stylus.
:thumbsup:
Bloody predictive text strikes again! Sorry jimbo
Bloody predictive text strikes again! Sorry jimbo
:)
337alant
18-02-2019, 16:11
I have a 2M Blue with a busted cantilever
Anyone know if the coils are same in the blue and if this cart would benefit by this mod
EDIT
Ah the answer is here
https://www.ortofon.com/ortofon-2m-blue-p-333
Alan
It seems to me that this could be a better path than new. Any cartridge you fancy can be had cheap if you buy used with a broken cantilever! Then send it off, get a better cartridge back at a fraction of the cost of the new cartridge. It definitely has me thinking.
Russell
I was referred to earlier in this thread about my experience with sending in a Cartridge to Holistic Audio.
The cartridge in question was a Kontrapunkt b, the end result was extremely satisfying and after a couple of short auditions in two different systems 'not mine', I can't wait for the time when it gets put into permanent use on my own system.
Each time the K'b has been heard by others, the enquiry that follows is how do I get one, or let me know who did it, I have a damaged K'b.
My entry was a Broken Cantilever K'b bought for a reasonable outlay, that was sent onto Holistic Audio.
I can't wait to Discover the undisclosed in my record collection.
Maybe I might just find out what was really going on in the studio during the recording of 'Appetite for Destruction' with out relying on the hear say.
I was referred to earlier in this thread about my experience with sending in a Cartridge to Holistic Audio.
The cartridge in question was a Kontrapunkt b, the end result was extremely satisfying and after a couple of short auditions in two different systems 'not mine', I can't wait for the time when it gets put into permanent use on my own system.
Each time the K'b has been heard by others, the enquiry that follows is how do I get one, or let me know who did it, I have a damaged K'b.
My entry was a Broken Cantilever K'b bought for a reasonable outlay, that was sent onto Holistic Audio.
I can't wait to Discover the undisclosed in my record collection.
Maybe I might just find out what was really going on in the studio during the recording of 'Appetite for Destruction' with out relying on the hear say.
John, you will be spending some long hours listening to vinyl I am sure! Mine has had me questioning what on earth I was listening too before there was so much missing. The FGS stylus really does make a huge difference.
It seems to me that this could be a better path than new. Any cartridge you fancy can be had cheap if you buy used with a broken cantilever! Then send it off, get a better cartridge back at a fraction of the cost of the new cartridge. It definitely has me thinking.
Russell
My cantilever did have to be intact for the work to be carried out but maybe other cartridges maybe different?
Maybe the FGS is not the panacea for non Ortofon based cartridges. Maybe some cartridges are not up to it. I asked Mr. Bakker if he thought it a good choice for my Troika and he told me that the Vital aka Ogura tip is a basic part of the Troika design and I should not contemplate any other tip shape.
337alant
20-02-2019, 14:29
I was referred to earlier in this thread about my experience with sending in a Cartridge to Holistic Audio.
The cartridge in question was a Kontrapunkt b, the end result was extremely satisfying and after a couple of short auditions in two different systems 'not mine', I can't wait for the time when it gets put into permanent use on my own system.
Each time the K'b has been heard by others, the enquiry that follows is how do I get one, or let me know who did it, I have a damaged K'b.
My entry was a Broken Cantilever K'b bought for a reasonable outlay, that was sent onto Holistic Audio.
I can't wait to Discover the undisclosed in my record collection.
Maybe I might just find out what was really going on in the studio during the recording of 'Appetite for Destruction' with out relying on the hear say.
John
Did they put in a new ruby cantilever and FGS on a KPT B or a different cantilever + FGS ?
Alan
Bigman80
20-02-2019, 15:05
John
Did they put in a new ruby cantilever and FGS on a KPT B or a different cantilever + FGS ?
AlanBeryllium cantilever. Not an FGS stylus either. IIRC
If you have a Kb with the cantilever intact. I absolutely have to say, if you don't have the Kb brought up to the same spec (apart from the coils as thats not possible) as the Vienna, you're possibly make missing out on the best possible rebuild of the cartridge. Possibly the best cartridge I've ever heard is the Vienna and as I have said before, they are unobtainable. This is the nearest you will get to one.
I say possible because I haven't heard John's. When I send mine off, it WILL be having the Vienna mods
RobbieGong
20-02-2019, 15:10
Beryllium cantilever. Not an FGS stylus either. IIRC
Check that Oliver if you can cause if it wasnt an FGS then I'm curious as to what did go on ?
Bigman80
20-02-2019, 15:11
Check that Oliver if you can cause if it wasnt an FGS then I'm curious as to what went on ?It was an Ogura tip I believe.
RobbieGong
20-02-2019, 15:16
It was an Ogura tip I believe.
Interesting, dont know anything about that stylus profile
Bigman80
20-02-2019, 15:19
Interesting, dont know anything about that stylus profileNeither did I. Wasn't one I'd heard of but John seems impressed. Angus said it was good too.
RobbieGong
20-02-2019, 15:23
Neither did I. Wasn't one I'd heard of but John seems impressed. Angus said it was good too.
:)
The K'b I sent to Kilian, was also destined to be rebuilt to Mimic a Vienna,
using the rebuild that Phonomac and Kilian had discussed as a viable alternative to a Vienna.
Kilian made a suggestion following my communication with him, about how he felt a exceptional end product could be had with a K'b, if a
Ogura Beryllium Cantilever and Ogura Vital + SA Tip was used, with a
improved damper material, the Damper Spec chosen was that of a Vienna.
This Cartridge has been auditioned on Angus's (Phonomac) home system,
The four people in the room heard the Vienna first, then the Ogura K'b.
The look on the faces said it all, there was a hell of a lot on offer from the K'b, with about 20 minutes play time on it.
Angus stated "I had cracked it ". I replied back " He had cracked it, as all in the room was his work and recommendations"
With the growing army of AT-1010 owners, it is getting easier to allow others to experience the works.
We need a Kiliaaaan Bakkkkker Carrrtridge Rebuuuild Baaake Ooooff :lol:
The K'b I sent to Kilian, was also destined to be rebuilt to Mimic a Vienna,
using the rebuild that Phonomac and Kilian had discussed as a viable alternative to a Vienna.
Kilian made a suggestion following my communication with him, about how he felt a exceptional end product could be had with a K'b, if a
Ogura Beryllium Cantilever and Ogura Vital + SA Tip was used, with a
improved damper material, the Damper Spec chosen was that of a Vienna.
This Cartridge has been auditioned on Angus's (Phonomac) home system,
The four people in the room heard the Vienna first, then the Ogura K'b.
The look on the faces said it all, there was a hell of a lot on offer from the K'b, with about 20 minutes play time on it.
Angus stated "I had cracked it ". I replied back " He had cracked it, as all in the room was his work and recommendations"
With the growing army of AT-1010 owners, it is getting easier to allow others to experience the works.
We need a Kiliaaaan Bakkkkker Carrrtridge Rebuuuild Baaake Ooooff :lol:
Need to hear a Kilian Kb up against my 2M FGS to see what I maybe missing?:lol:
Bigman80
20-02-2019, 19:37
The K'b I sent to Kilian, was also destined to be rebuilt to Mimic a Vienna,
using the rebuild that Phonomac and Kilian had discussed as a viable alternative to a Vienna.
Kilian made a suggestion following my communication with him, about how he felt a exceptional end product could be had with a K'b, if a
Ogura Beryllium Cantilever and Ogura Vital + SA Tip was used, with a
improved damper material, the Damper Spec chosen was that of a Vienna.
This Cartridge has been auditioned on Angus's (Phonomac) home system,
The four people in the room heard the Vienna first, then the Ogura K'b.
The look on the faces said it all, there was a hell of a lot on offer from the K'b, with about 20 minutes play time on it.
Angus stated "I had cracked it ". I replied back " He had cracked it, as all in the room was his work and recommendations"
With the growing army of AT-1010 owners, it is getting easier to allow others to experience the works.
We need a Kiliaaaan Bakkkkker Carrrtridge Rebuuuild Baaake Ooooff [emoji38]Angus was very positive about your cart John. I don't doubt it's level of performance. I suspect it is very good. If I can get another KB, I'd consider having both versions done.
FGS is and 5um by 70um and a trapezoid cross section.
Bigman80
28-02-2019, 11:26
So it’s basically same as on Cadenza Blue ?It's also subjected to a higher grade polishing level I believe.
phonomac
28-02-2019, 12:49
The FGS is 5um by 100um (the larger radius is variable, from 70um to 120um with 100um as the specified working point). It is indeed trapezoidal in cross-section, with a higher polish than the standard Replicant - similar to the version used in the A95 and the Windfeld Ti.
RobbieGong
28-02-2019, 13:05
The FGS is 5um by 100um (the larger radius is variable, from 70um to 120um with 100um as the specified working point). It is indeed trapezoidal in cross-section, with a higher polish than the standard Replicant - similar to the version used in the A95 and the Windfeld Ti.
Nice one Angus :thumbsup:
I wonder Rob, which cartridge would be better for the next upgrade a Windfeld or A95?:scratch::):eek:
RobbieGong
01-03-2019, 09:33
I wonder Rob, which cartridge would be better for the next upgrade a Windfeld or A95?:scratch::):eek:
:D I'm in no doubt both you and I would love either.
With the FGS on my Cadenza Black I'm pretty sure I've now upgraded to something that is likely pretty much like the Windfeld or Windfeld Ti, which I'm pretty chufffed about considering the fraction the re-tip work cost.
The A95 I believe pushes things much further in terms of dymanics which Noel Keywood (Hi-F World) described as 'almost concussive', thats around £4k worth of cart mind you.
I'd have what I currently have again without hesitation - I love it in my system :)
In terms of bang for buck coupled with I believe what would be guaranteed satisfaction, I know what my next move would be if I were in your shoes ;)
Interesting read and has got me wondering what holistic Audio could do with my Quintet Bronze?
Am I right in assuming the cost of rebuild is circa £500?
RobbieGong
06-03-2019, 13:14
Interesting read and has got me wondering what holistic Audio could do with my Quintet Bronze?
Am I right in assuming the cost of rebuild is circa £500?
Hi Tony,
PM sent.
Now put about 50 hours on the 2M Black FGS and it has opened up significantly, not that it wasn't bad before but now the sound stage is huge with everything placed in the soundstage sounding wonderfully natural with beautiful acoustic space. Very nice uplift in transparency. This is as good an analogue sound as I have ever heard with lovely tactile nuances and superb tonal qualities to instruments.
I really believe this stylus has taken the 2M into another league and it has elevated a rather good MM cartridge to a level that for me makes me feel pursuing a really good MC is not really worth the time, expense or effort although I am sure Robbie may disagree a little there!:)
brian2957
09-03-2019, 00:02
Nice one James . You took a risk and it paid off :)
RobbieGong
09-03-2019, 19:39
Now put about 50 hours on the 2M Black FGS and it has opened up significantly, not that it wasn't bad before but now the sound stage is huge with everything placed in the soundstage sounding wonderfully natural with beautiful acoustic space. Very nice uplift in transparency. This is as good an analogue sound as I have ever heard with lovely tactile nuances and superb tonal qualities to instruments.
I really believe this stylus has taken the 2M into another league and it has elevated a rather good MM cartridge to a level that for me makes me feel pursuing a really good MC is not really worth the time, expense or effort although I am sure Robbie may disagree a little there!:)
:) In all honesty Jim I know exactly where you're coming from.
You'll remember how much I banged on about the 2MB when I had mine, that cart opened my eyes to how good analogue can get like no other cart had. I rate it very highly.
Further testimony was that when I moved to my first mc, Ortofons Quintet Black I wasn't like ' this is wiping the floor' with the 2MB and that showed me again what a quality cart the 2MB is.
Same again when I went up again to the Cadenza Black, not a case of 'peeing' all over the 2MB.
Of course you get a bit more refinement and textural info but I'd expect that at least considering the cost, especially the Cadenza.
Now the 'big leap' in terms of everything is with the FGS on the Cadenza - absolutely, so I can only imagine what the FGS has done to the 2MB, hence I can appreciate what you're saying :thumbsup:
I ought to send it down to you for a listen:lol:
RobbieGong
10-03-2019, 21:40
You mean you'd trust me with it after my 'finger lift slip n suspension tension wire stretch' incident ? :eek:
She arrived back from Kilian yesterday after repair by the way, but I've not had a moment to get to setting the Cadenza Black FGS up again.
Started a new job last week and weekends always full so heaven knows when I'll next get the chance to set it up properly :(
If I'm ever up Birmingham way I'll let you know and samely if you're ever down London town one Saturday and give me enough advance, you can have a listen too and if I can keep the thing in the all important sweetspot too.
I owe Andy (smangus) a listen / visit at some point too :)
Ah yes I forgot it might not be safe. I do have another 2M black which will go for the same treatment once the stylus wears out. I may well send you my current one when the stylus is a bit nearer the end of its life!:lol:
Again I was listening to it a lot over the weekend whilst also evaluating and trying to optimise a digital set up. Interesting swapping between the two! Digital sounds really good until you put some vinyl on. The magical illusion vinyl creates especially with a stylus as good as the FGS is wonderful. The texture and tone of instruments is very apparent and real. You don't have to try hard to listen, everything is laid out in front of you with a natural ease and ambience. I am still amazed at the acoustic environment either natural or artificially produced that is revealed by this cartridge.
Compared to the standard 2M there is so much more going on with subtle but important nuances in the recording that were not apparent in the standard cartridge. I now hear where voices have been double tracked and indeed I can hear clearly the separation between voices which were previously either blurred together or just not audible.
There is also a weight and power to this cartridge now that makes the standard 2M sound a bit lean. The standard 2M also sounds a bit spot lit on some material where as the FGS gives you a more wholesome account of the recording.
I am enjoying this upgrade more than I though I would and it has taken me several weeks of listening to get my head around just what it has now bought to my system and listening experience. It has been one of the biggest upgrades I have noticed in my system and well worth every penny.
RobbieGong
11-03-2019, 23:15
In nutshell, your findings mirror mine Jim.
The FGS does not leave anything behind so you get what I call the 'real recording' and that means everything / the information that you'd expect a recording to contain or hold in terms of the recorded instruments, vocals, recording levels and recording quality.
This is something that I've found even very nice sounding carts / stylus's havnt done in the way the FGS does and there's good reason for that.
As I've said before, this is largely due to it's profile which is 1. Cut to closely match the cutting lathe tip, 2. It is not only long and thin (therefore getting deep down in the groove, it has a very large contact area as well (allowing it to extract a shed load of information / the recorded music from the groove walls.
Thats why as a transducer it is amazing, accurate, pure and true.
Things you never knew where there are revealed. A one note you may find is actually a double note, the way phrases end are not always as you thought, single vocals turn out to have a subtle second vocal sometimes, that you'd never heard before.
Personally, It's this way or no way for me from now on, it's just too good and right to go 'back'.
Once this one wears I'll go the same route again until, my teeth fall out and my hearing fails :D
Excellent mate . You took a punt and it paid off :)
Do you know if he does this kind of work on lesser cartridges , or is it only the Black and above ?
Well after having a brief but informative email chat with Kilian from Holistic Audio, my old Ortofon 530 mkii is currently winging it's
way to him to have the damper assembly upgraded the body mechanically tuned for lower resonance signature and re-tipped with a
Fritz Gyger stylus. Not the FG-S that Jimbo has had on his 2M black but a FG-1V apparently, He did say that he can upgrade all the Ortofon 500
series but the 530 mkii is in his words "where it gets interesting" :).
So once again thanks for the steer chaps, i'm looking forward to hearing how this compares to the shure m55e/jico sas combo
on my Phonomac AT1010 mk6( Absolutely jaw dropping tonearm, thanks again Angus:clap:)
Nick.
Last year I remember asking Mr. Bakker about fitting an FGS to my Troika and he said I should stick to the Ogura Vital tip although he did mention a 5-times polished special edition Vital tip which offered certain advantages (less fluff build-up, quieter tracing ). Does this mean that with the FG tips we are not talking about a global panacea but rather something that suits Ortofons in particular ?
RobbieGong
16-03-2019, 21:36
Last year I remember asking Mr. Bakker about fitting an FGS to my Troika and he said I should stick to the Ogura Vital tip although he did mention a 5-times polished special edition Vital tip which offered certain advantages (less fluff build-up, quieter tracing ). Does this mean that with the FG tips we are not talking about a global panacea but rather something that suits Ortofons in particular ?
Dont know to be honest Chris,
He certainly knows his stuf and I do get the impression that he knows what will work, or is right in terms of application.
In that regard then I very much doubt that his approach, knowledge, skills and advice / recommendation will be limited or restricted to the FGS for everyone and everything
Two months on and the upgraded 2M Black with the FGS stylus has now run in completely. Over these months the soundstage seems to have widened with superb imaging and wonderfully tonal quality,in fact it has the the most satisfying tonal quality I have heard from any cartridge.
Instruments are portrayed with life like realism, weight and texture. Guitars have lovely harmonic layering,piano keys have weight and fast dynamics and brass and wind instruments sound full and real. Vocals take on amazing detail with so much information in how the singer is using their voice and breath. Layers of information that were not there before have been revealed like archaeologists excavating in the sand. Where as some detail was hinted at it is now very clear and transparent.
This has to be the most satisfying analogue system I have heard with so much space and lovely acoustic information filling your senses without any artificial "HiFi" aspects to the sound. It means you listen for hours without ever wanting to finish, always reaching for yet another record.:)
Bigman80
25-05-2019, 20:00
Two months on and the upgraded 2M Black with the FGS stylus has now run in completely. Over these months the soundstage seems to have widened with superb imaging and wonderfully tonal quality,in fact it has the the most satisfying tonal quality I have heard from any cartridge.
Instruments are portrayed with life like realism, weight and texture. Guitars have lovely harmonic layering,piano keys have weight and fast dynamics and brass and wind instruments sound full and real. Vocals take on amazing detail with so much information in how the singer is using their voice and breath. Layers of information that were not there before have been revealed like archaeologists excavating in the sand. Where as some detail was hinted at it is now very clear and transparent.
This has to be the most satisfying analogue system I have heard with so much space and lovely acoustic information filling your senses without any artificial "HiFi" aspects to the sound. It means you listen for hours without ever wanting to finish, always reaching for yet another record.:)Congratulations Jim, a just reward for your efforts. Can't wait to hear it!
Wakefield Turntables
26-05-2019, 06:48
Jim, I'm getting a little bit of your experience but from a completely different source! A purchased a Ortofon Royal N SPU, same coils as the Cadenza black and a the replicant stylus which is similar to FG but probably not quite as good. I'd say its strong point is detail resolution. Still considering getting my Cadenza black sorted!!!!
Wakefield Turntables
26-05-2019, 06:49
. It means you listen for hours without ever wanting to finish, always reaching for yet another record.:)
Well at least 22-23 minutes until you need to turn it over!!!!!!!! :ner:
Well at least 22-23 minutes until you need to turn it over!!!!!!!! :ner:
:lol: I like the turning over it get me to move out my chair:lol:
Yes the detail is fantastic. I was listening right into the recordings last night and could hear quite a bit more than the standard 2M.
The standard 2M sounds edgy and a bit hyped compare to the FGS. I really am impressed with how it retrieves detail but also as I mentioned, its tonality. It has far exceeded what I thought it would do. The detail it does reveal is not like digital analytical detail which reminds me of the vivid setting on your TV, it is more natural and balanced in the recording.
As you may have been aware I have been evaluating an exceedingly good digital set up over the past few months - The Pi3 + Boss 1.2 and it has been enjoyable. I could write a great deal on how it compares with my analogue set up but that will have to wait till another day. But suffice is to say I still prefer my analogue set up by a large margin.:)
Congratulations Jim, a just reward for your efforts. Can't wait to hear it!
:thumbsup:
As you may have been aware I have been evaluating an exceedingly good digital set up over the past few months - The Pi3 + Boss 1.2 and it has been enjoyable. I could write a great deal on how it compares with my analogue set up )
You should, that would be interesting.
You should, that would be interesting.
I will certainly get round to it soon Martin, however I feel it may be like comparing Colour photography to Black and White photography.
Which is the most pleasing?:)
That would be an ecumenical question :)
willbewill
26-05-2019, 13:08
That would be an ecumenical question :)Hahaha
Wakefield Turntables
26-05-2019, 13:49
ecumenical
oOOOOOOoooo you don't see that used everyday!
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