View Full Version : Bullshitting
Johnny nocash
15-02-2019, 00:48
Hi mods please put in the right section when necessary.
I joined AoS thinking it was probably the most straight forward & honest HiFi forums.
Unfortunately I don't think that now. Reading quite a few posts I sense that there's a degree of 'promoting' other members gear.
Of course I'm going to get a load of £h1t for suggesting this but having spoken to other members in person I'm not too bothered, they feel the same.
Stop overrating your friends product.
The integrity of this forum is very important.
You should take what everybody says as a guide. Not everybody wants the same sound.
The important thing is to decide for yourself, using your own ears.
Light Dependant Resistor
15-02-2019, 04:00
Hi mods please put in the right section when necessary.
I joined AoS thinking it was probably the most straight forward & honest HiFi forums.
Unfortunately I don't think that now. Reading quite a few posts I sense that there's a degree of 'promoting' other members gear.
Of course I'm going to get a load of £h1t for suggesting this but having spoken to other members in person I'm not too bothered, they feel the same.
Stop overrating your friends product.
The integrity of this forum is very important.
Hi Richard
Discussions are just that. If you feel strongly about one product is getting undue attention vs another let the forum know, Your contribution
to reveal why a product is perhaps over-rated is always welcome. The challenge I think is to find and discuss something better still.... ever upwards.
There are members here that make good stuff and have sold here afordably so it is only natural they are shown a little love.
If it's not for you ,then ok but this is a very honest place to exchange knowledge and ideas. BE YOUR OWN FILTER, and you will be just fine.
If you look up integrity in a thesaurus Marco is right next to it.:D
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 07:08
There are members here that make good stuff and have sold here afordably so it is only natural they are shown a little love.
If it's not for you ,then ok but this is a very honest place to exchange knowledge and ideas. BE YOUR OWN FILTER, and you will be just fine.
If you look up integrity in a thesaurus Marco is right next to it.:D
+1 for all of jeff's comments.
You'll go a long way to find a more honest, straightforward guy than Marco - he doesn't miss much, and he's not afraid to call a spade a spade. If you have concerns about anything, I'd suggest you send him a pm, and if there is an issue to be addressed, believe me he will address it! Conversely, if he thinks your view might be mistaken he won't shoot it down in flames!
We're all grown ups on here (most of us) and we are all entitled to our views on all subjects. It's been said before, but here it is again: let your ears decide :)
Hi Richard
Discussions are just that. If you feel strongly about one product is getting undue attention vs another let the forum know, Your contribution
to reveal why a product is perhaps over-rated is always welcome. The challenge I think is to find and discuss something better still.... ever upwards.
I saw a product described as laid back and flat by a listener, which was shot down by the maker and his mates; no credibility was given to the listener's opinion. This isn't the only example. There is mileage in what the OP is saying; sh*lling is rife on hifi forums etc. unfortunately.
Social media, and forums are a form of this, can be attract such illogical opinions and reactions. Posting on a forum you've joined to say you don't favour it is a bit like travelling to somewhere you don't want to go !
I find I do post less on forums, mostly because everybody else is wrong :lol::peace:
On the plus, and there's always a positive, I reckon you've started a lively thread Richard !!
Cheers.
Firebottle
15-02-2019, 07:29
Lets have some names, if I am included please say so.
There are some skilled artisans on here that produce excellent product.
Perhaps the context of a good/great/excellent system is to play, there are so many variables with no guarantee of synergy to any of it.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 07:45
Hi mods please put in the right section when necessary.
I joined AoS thinking it was probably the most straight forward & honest HiFi forums.
Unfortunately I don't think that now. Reading quite a few posts I sense that there's a degree of 'promoting' other members gear.
Of course I'm going to get a load of £h1t for suggesting this but having spoken to other members in person I'm not too bothered, they feel the same.
Stop overrating your friends product.
The integrity of this forum is very important.Have you got proof of *shilling*
Proof that someone is actually being used or employed as a shill/plant/stooge?
What you are suggesting here is a deliberate act of deception.
"shill, also called a*plant*or a*stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization *without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization*. Shills can carry out their operations in the areas of media, journalism, marketing, politics,*confidence games, or other business areas. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest through*character assassination*or other means."
This is a serious allegation. One currently unsubstantiated and lacking examples of proof. Also, one usually levelled at this forum by members of less successful/ popular forums, who'd like to "assassinate the credibility" of the members here.
What this forum is, is a community of people who regularly share their experiences of kit, and the help they get from other members. If we recommend the wares or services of the members here, it's because we've been very pleased with what we have paid for.
If that experience left them feeling happy, why wouldn't they share that experience with the community and recommend them when an opportunity to do so arises?
Personally, I have had nothing but a great experience from the manufacturers or Trade members on this Forum. An experience I am willing to promote (independently and not for gain) at every opportunity. Why shouldn't we promote the "little guy" afterall, you are paying 400% (minimum) profit for any dealer bought item. Far better value to be had from independent "cottage manufacturers" like those found here at AoS.
Don't believe that? Ask anyone connected with dealers for their opinion.
Reviews and recommendations MUST be understood to be the reviewers own opinion. One should always do their own research and make sure that whatever has been recommended, suits their taste or system. I thought we all knew this?
Reviews and recommendations MUST be understood to be the reviewers own opinion. One should always do their own research and make sure that whatever has been recommended, suits their taste or system. I thought we all knew this?
You'd think so wouldn't you?
The great thing about forums is that you can get a range of opinions about something. It isn't just one reviewer saying 'I give this five stars' like we had in the days of the magazines.
What are you supposed to do if a friend comes up with a product you like? Personally I'll say I like it. And if I don't I'll say so and I'll say why, Actually this is easier to do if you know them because they'll understand it is nothing personal and take the criticism on board. If someone anonymous criticises it then you have no idea if it is due to some sort of agenda they might have. So it cuts both ways.
It wouldn't be much of a forum if everyone was afraid to give a positive opinion lest they be accused of shilling, would it? Regrettably there are some sad little wankers out there who would like to create that sort of atmosphere and ruin forums and they do this by accusing everyone of shilling everything (except the products that they like and use of course).
It's a bit like the primary school kids shouting insults at the older boys from behind the safety of their playground railings. All I can say is they better cross the road if they ever see me coming.
Don't get sucked in by that agenda.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 08:20
You'd think so wouldn't you?
The great thing about forums is that you can get a range of opinions about something. It isn't just one reviewer saying 'I give this five stars' like we had in the days of the magazines.
What are you supposed to do if a friend comes up with a product you like? Personally I'll say I like it. And if I don't I'll say so and I'll say why, Actually this is easier to do if you know them because they'll understand it is nothing personal and take the criticism on board. If someone anonymous criticises it then you have no idea if it is due to some sort of agenda they might have. So it cuts both ways.
It wouldn't be much of a forum if everyone was afraid to give a positive opinion lest they be accused of shilling, would it? Regrettably there are some sad little wankers out there who would like to create that sort of atmosphere and ruin forums and they do this by accusing everyone of shilling everything (except the products that they like and use of course).
It's a bit like the primary school kids shouting insults at the older boys from behind the safety of their playground railings. All I can say is they better cross the road if they ever see me coming.
Don't get sucked in by that agenda."It wouldn't be much of a forum if everyone was afraid to give a positive opinion lest they be accused of shilling, would it? Regrettably there are some sad little wankers out there who would like to create that sort of atmosphere and ruin forums and they do this by accusing everyone of shilling everything (except the products that they like and use of course)"
*Slow claps*
Absolutely spot on, Martin.
Full disclosure: I agree with this opinion and have not been paid or recieved any incentive to do so.
<Is that how we avoid this shilling accusation bullshit. FFS.
Johnny, Substantiate your claim with evidence!!!
So, you're after the source of absolute truth on hifi from a hifi forum? Come on, let's be sensible, shall we? This is a forum full of people with opinions. These opinions are then passed on. Nobody is expecting divine truths, just opinions. It's just like life; full of opinions and information. You have to sort out for yourself how much, or little, you want to take from, or be influenced by, those opinions and information.
Surely you can exercise your own filter when reading posts?
This forum leans more towards the subjective side of hifi and, as a result, can often be more pleasant than other places that focus purely on technical and objective approaches. I don't post here that much, but I do find this place has a distinct 'flavour' of its own. Of course, there will be products that have become popular on here for a whole variety of reasons, those products may then have a higher degree of visibility here than elsewhere. So what? It seems quite natural to me.
Of course, if you don't like it, then just don't bother to post or read here.
topoxforddoc
15-02-2019, 08:23
I don't think that Johnny nocash has actually accused any particular individual of "shilling", or whatever activity you wish to call it. I can understand some members' responses to this post, as I was accused personally of this on another forum some years ago. When this happened, I was flummoxed by the term, as I understood shilling to mean 12 pence. In fact, after this had occurred for the umpteenth time, I decided that I had had enough, wrote to the mods and left. I haven't been back since (apart from one post following the death of a good friend).
I have enjoyed this hobby for 40 years and have gleaned help from many sources. As someone who started this journey working with Ken Kessler as the saturday boy in Canterbury Hi-Fi, I admit that my view on the world might be slightly blinkered. But since my teens, I have just been an ordinary paying punter, like the vast majority who enjoy music in their homes and pay hard earned cash for equipment.
Since the false accusations a few years ago, I rarely post about the manufacturer, about whom I was accused of shilling. Small manufacturers like Firebottle and the like are a credit to British design and manufacturing. The cottage hi-fi industry has little money to pay for advertising and product placements and have to rely on personal recommendation and excellent product design to make a living. Some makers sell more expensive products, which doesn't mean that they are poor value. The value is in the eye of the beholder and listener.
Social media and forums are easy places for keyboard warriors to fight unfair battles. A modicum of common sense and politeness would go an awful long way to make life happier for everyone.
Just to be straight the OP did not mention shilling, he used rather less inflammatory words. Given the context it might be wise to avoid making him into a straw man.
This not aimed at topoxforddoc's post.
Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 08:28
I don't think that Johnny nocash has actually accused any particular individual of "shilling", or whatever activity you wish to call it. I can understand some members' responses to this post, as I was accused personally of this on another forum some years ago. When this happened, I was flummoxed by the term, as I understood shilling to mean 12 pence. In fact, after this had occurred for the umpteenth time, I decided that I had had enough, wrote to the mods and left. I haven't been back since (apart from one post following the death of a good friend).
I have enjoyed this hobby for 40 years and have gleaned help from many sources. As someone who started this journey working with Ken Kessler as the saturday boy in Canterbury Hi-Fi, I admit that my view on the world might be slightly blinkered. But since my teens, I have just been an ordinary paying punter, like the vast majority who enjoy music in their homes and pay hard earned cash for equipment.
Since the false accusations a few years ago, I rarely post about the manufacturer, about whom I was accused of shilling. Small manufacturers like Firebottle and the like are a credit to British design and manufacturing. The cottage hi-fi industry has little money to pay for advertising and product placements and have to rely on personal recommendation and excellent product design to make a living. Some makers sell more expensive products, which doesn't mean that they are poor value. The value is in the eye of the beholder and listener.
Social media and forums are easy places for keyboard warriors to fight unfair battles. A modicum of common sense and politeness would go an awful long way to make life happier for everyone.
It's a deeply unpleasant accusation.
The allegation is difficult to prove and even harder to disprove.
The act of shilling requires deception and when this is now being levelled at us by one of our members, the reaction SHOULD be strong.
You cannot have "shilling" with suspecting someone of doing it. So Johnny, where is the evidence.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 08:31
Sorry, but has that post been changed?
I'm sure Shilling was mentioned, hence my strong reaction.
Sorry, but that post has been changed. Shilling was mentioned, hence my strong reaction.
No, the OP didn't mention shilling, I mentioned shilling in the context of shilling going on across hifi forums.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 08:36
No, the OP didn't mention shilling, I mentioned shilling in the context of shilling going on across hifi forums.Ah, fair enough.
Apologies Johnny.
Still, why can't we promote gear we like, regardless of who makes it?
Stop overrating your friends product.
Was what Richard said in his o/p. Amounts to the same thing I think.
I would agree with the sentiment except that I've seen many times people being what I would call 'over enthusiastic' about products they have heard or bought themselves even when they have zero connection to the person or company that made them. Fact: People are occasionally going to be over-enthusiastic if they like a product. I think that is something most of us can accept and live with.
Ali Tait
15-02-2019, 08:41
It is however pretty clear that that is what the OP is referring to though IMO.
Like Charlie, I’ve been accused of this in the past. As I recall, the first time I was apparently shilling Rega products- this despite the fact that Ive never owned anything made by Rega, which I did find quite amusing at the time.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:06
Stop overrating your friends product.
Was what Richard said in his o/p. Amounts to the same thing I think.
I would agree with the sentiment except that I've seen many times people being what I would call 'over enthusiastic' about products they have heard or bought themselves even when they have zero connection to the person or company that made them. Fact: People are occasionally going to be over-enthusiastic if they like a product. I think that is something most of us can accept and live with.Guilty of being over enthusiastic.
The thing is, I found a guy on my doorstep, making stuff that battered my (then) dream amplifier.
It was amazing to me. Yes, I probably got a bit carried away and probably boring but hey, I was new to this and it really did amaze me.
What pissed me off about this post is whenever there is a speaker question, I can predict with regularity who will recommend Tannoys at every opportunity. Are they shilling Tannoys? Or are they simply relaying their absolute recommendation for a speaker solution.
There are multiple threads where I can demonstrate that the same people recommend the same gear but because they are "big brands" it's perfectly fine. Do this with a Trader or a cottage industry manufacturer and it's shilling.
What it is, is bullshit.
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 09:10
This isn't a topic that can be taken very far without putting someone's nose out of joint, so if somebody has specific instances to address, it should be done via PM to admin/mods.
Guilty of being over enthusiastic.
The thing is, I found a guy on my doorstep, making stuff that battered my (then) dream amplifier.
It was amazing to me. Yes, I probably got a bit carried away and probably boring but hey, I was new to this and it really did amaze me.
What pissed me off about this post is whenever there is a speaker question, I can predict with regularity who will recommend Tannoys at every opportunity. Are they shilling Tannoys? Or are they simply relaying their absolute recommendation for a speaker solution.
There are multiple threads where I can demonstrate that the same people recommend the same gear but because they are "big brands" it's perfectly fine. Do this with a Trader or a cottage industry manufacturer and it's shilling.
What it is, is bullshit.
Does anyone know Mr Tannoy, or go over to his house for a listening session featuring his new speaker? No - in this example your point is flawed.
The OP did talk about friends and 'enthusiastic' reviewing, not bigging up companies like Rega, Tannoy etc.
I'd say the problem is basically over-enthusiasm. On AoS the particular 'culprit' is cables (I guess this is because it's relatively easy to knock up a set of cables, whereas amplifiers and source components require more time, effort and components). One minute the xyz cable is the bees knees, the dogs bollocks, blows everything else out of the water etc etc, the next minute the abc cable becomes flavour of the month* and the xyz cable is completely forgotten.
I've reached the point where I'm happy with the sound of my two systems, cables included, so I'm not going to be jumping on any bandwagon, but if others think they need to improve some component/accessory then, as always, try before you buy is the golden rule.
* The only time I tried an AoS flavour of the month product, I was profoundly underwhelmed, but all it cost me was the return postage.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:22
Does anyone know Mr Tannoy, or go over to his house for a listening session featuring his new speaker? No - in this example your point is flawed.
The OP did talk about friends and 'enthusiastic' reviewing, not bigging up companies like Rega, Tannoy etc.What if they did/do? ...... We wouldn't know it. The art of shilling is not disclosing your affiliation with the product manufacturer.
Hence your explanation is flawed.
What if they did/do? ...... We wouldn't know it. The art of shilling is not disclosing your affiliation with the product manufacturer.
Hence your explanation is flawed.
No, in my opinion you are wrong. Tannoy speakers are universally known and generally user reviews are similar. It's not the same as an amp or speaker that 3 or 4 people have heard and might need some publicity.
But keep on protesting.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:27
I'd say the problem is basically over-enthusiasm. On AoS the particular 'culprit' is cables (I guess this is because it's relatively easy to knock up a set of cables, whereas amplifiers and source components require more time, effort and components). One minute the xyz cable is the bees knees, the dogs bollocks, blows everything else out of the water etc etc, the next minute the abc cable becomes flavour of the month* and the xyz cable is completely forgotten.
I've reached the point where I'm happy with the sound of my two systems, cables included, so I'm not going to be jumping on any bandwagon, but if others think they need to improve some component/accessory then, as always, try before you buy is the golden rule.
* The only time I tried an AoS flavour of the month product, I was profoundly underwhelmed, but all it cost me was the return postage.Cables are within the capabilities of most people to make, yes I agree.
I think what you have here is a willingness to put on a "Try it" or loan scheme. That's always going to gain opinion/feedback because that's what it's for.
IF someone thinks that there is value in recommending them, then fair enough. Same for the opposite.
Over promotion is different to customer/purchaser comment IMO.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:30
No, in my opinion you are wrong. Tannoy speakers are universally known and generally user reviews are similar. It's not the same as an amp or speaker that 3 or 4 people have heard and might need some publicity.
But keep on protesting.Lol, you make me laugh Cyrus.
Honestly, so the number of people who use it is the defining factor? Shilling is limited to one person. It can be a group. BTW, Tannoy was just an example, there's more which are more suitable ones but there you go.
Ok. As you were.
I'd say the problem is basically over-enthusiasm. On AoS the particular 'culprit' is cables (I guess this is because it's relatively easy to knock up a set of cables, whereas amplifiers and source components require more time, effort and components). One minute the xyz cable is the bees knees, the dogs bollocks, blows everything else out of the water etc etc, the next minute the abc cable becomes flavour of the month* and the xyz cable is completely forgotten.
I've reached the point where I'm happy with the sound of my two systems, cables included, so I'm not going to be jumping on any bandwagon, but if others think they need to improve some component/accessory then, as always, try before you buy is the golden rule.
* The only time I tried an AoS flavour of the month product, I was profoundly underwhelmed, but all it cost me was the return postage.
Good post.
The fact you can 'purchase' without any risk means you can look at these things objectively. Whereas if you bought a cable for £100 (which I've never done) with no offer of return, and you don't like it, chances are it wouldn't be sold on with an 100% honest appraisal - more likely a 'didnt suit my system' or 'upgrading' comment.
This is how these things reach immortal status, not being able to admit it was just a bit sh1tty.
Through strong and consistant recommendations/review from people on here , not all linked, I have a couple of pieces of kit from 1 manufacturer in particular. I have a Firebottle Phono stage and mono blocks. They have increased my musical pleasure no end and I would never have heard of or considered them if it was not for people on the forum posting reviews etc.
I made my own choices when investing my money and have not regretted it at all. Am i a victim of over promoted gear , no i don't think so. As long as reviews etc are posted honestly and we recognise that than that is all that matters.
The more options we are made aware of the better, ar the end of the day nobody on here can force you to spend tour money, it's your choice and if something gives good vfm then why not talk about it?
Given my experience I would recommend those bits of kit to anybody , whether they take that up or not is down to them.
Never met Alan only exchanged pms very occasionally, so I put myself in a satisfied customer bracket not shilling mate bracket . [emoji41]
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Lol, you make me laugh Cyrus.
Honestly, so the number of people who use it is the defining factor? Shilling is limited to one person. It can be a group. BTW, Tannoy was just an example, there's more which are more suitable ones but there you go.
Ok. As you were.
Yes. You've hit the nail on the head, by accident not design. Tannoy, for example, have so many similar positive reviews that the chances of these reviews being flawed are close to zero. Rather like when you buy a product and there are 1000+ positive reviews, you generally take it as read that it is decent.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:33
Good post.
The fact you can 'purchase' without any risk means you can look at these things objectively. Whereas if you bought a cable for £100 (which I've never done) with no offer of return, and you don't like it, chances are it wouldn't be sold on with an 100% honest appraisal - more likely a 'didnt suit my system' or 'upgrading' comment.
This is how these things reach immortal status, not being able to admit it was just a bit sh1tty.Nothing you buy used has been accurately described.
They are selling it because they don't like it or have found something better [emoji23][emoji23]
Isn't that obvious???
FFS
Nothing you buy used has been accurately described.
They are selling it because they don't like it or have found something better [emoji23][emoji23]
Isn't that obvious???
FFS
Like an unserviceable dart you are missing the point. Read it again; I'm not talking your run of the mill for sale description.
As has already been said I think it’s more the over enthusiastic reviews that are the only crime here, I personally take them with a pinch of salt.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:39
[emoji85]
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:41
[emoji86]
montesquieu
15-02-2019, 09:43
Hmm I do think the original poster had a point. One of the issues with a certain other forum that used to be thriving was that as time progressed, more and more of the clique at the centre of it drifted into the hifi trade themselves.
Shilling is a strong word ... it’s kind of natural to be excited about your mates’ latest and greatest. But too much of it does unbalanced things especially if other stuff not attached to the ‘in crowd’ isn’t given a chance.
Anyway on this other forum, such behaviour eventually pushed out longer more established makers and traders who used to participate and who used to bring a lot of expertise and credibility, and whose progressive disappearance was a massive loss. Far from its only issue of course (a growing bullying culture by said clique and an utterly cack-handed attempt at commercialisation were what finished it off) but undoubtedly that was where the rot set in.
So I would say - be careful of any signs of that happening here. (Addressed not just to Marco but to all of us).
My other advice to the OP and others is : don’t pay too much attention to cable threads!
Lol your on your own in saying the Alphason is crap mate, no way
Like an unserviceable dart you are missing the point. Read it again; I'm not talking your run of the mill for sale description.
Joe, please defend your P.O.V in future without turning things personal. The little remark was completely unnecessary, and only liable to inflame matters. Cheers!:)
Oh, and that goes for everyone else here, too.
Marco.
So how many reviews are a quantative measure of quality on which I can buy blind?
I read numerous reviews of the Alphasson tonearm, raving about it. Best arm ever made! Etc etc.
It was crap. Maybe it didn't have enough reviews and I'd fallen victim to Shilling
You are getting hot under the collar about this, whereas the multitude of other small footprint builders who post and sell on here (and have no doubt seen this thread) are seemingly not bothered. I really don't understand why - just get some time under your belt as a builder, then a reputable builder, and you'll have the same attitude as the other builders on here - not bothered and not posting.
Joe, please defend your P.O.V in future without turning things personal. The little remark was completely unnecessary, and only liable to inflame matters. Cheers!:)
Oh, and that goes for everyone else here, too.
Marco.
He missed the point - purposely in my opinion Marco.
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 09:51
My other advice to the OP and others is : don’t pay too much attention to cable threads!
Or other 'excitedly enthusiastic' threads.
Some items may be worthy of credit obviously, but having independant thinking is good. It can be rewarding to not follow the herd.
Spectral Morn
15-02-2019, 09:52
I don't care, Cyrus. You can argue with yourself.
Who is gonna sell something without "bigging" up it's performance?? FFS man!! Wake up.
Ever bought a used car?
Been to a hifi shop?
Your opinion is infantile.
Careful, debate the topic, dont attack the person. Calm down, please.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:52
[emoji44]
Lawrence001
15-02-2019, 09:53
Hmm I do think the original poster had a point. One of the issues with a certain other forum that used to be thriving was that as time progressed, more and more of the clique at the centre of it drifted into the hifi trade themselves.
Shilling is a strong word ... it’s kind of natural to be excited about your mates’ latest and greatest. But too much of it does unbalanced things especially if other stuff not attached to the ‘in crowd’ isn’t given a chance.
Anyway on this other forum, such behaviour eventually pushed out longer more established makers and traders who used to participate and who used to bring a lot of expertise and credibility, and whose progressive disappearance was a massive loss. Far from its only issue of course (a growing bullying culture by said clique and an utterly cack-handed attempt at commercialisation were what finished it off) but undoubtedly that was where the rot set in.
So I would say - be careful of any signs of that happening here. (Addressed not just to Marco but to all of us).
My other advice to the OP and others is : don’t pay too much attention to cable threads!Well said Tom I was just reading this thread thinking how am I going to give my opinion without offending anyone but you have done it for me so thanks for that. I feel like the forum has changed in the last year or so and whereas previously I enjoyed reading all the content I now feel the use of hyperbole in some threads has put me off reading some of it. I was speaking to another forum member the other day who agreed with me, actually I think he said it first.
Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:55
[emoji55]
Not hot under the collar at all, Cyrus.
Honestly.
I just don't understand how anyone buying something second hand doesn't realise, whoever is selling it either A, Doesn't like it, B, has bettered it.
Every advert is bullshit. That's a fact.
Anyway, I'm off for some breakfast.
I look forward to your next advert then.
'By the way, Mrs Miggins' Tea Shop does the best bacon sandwich I've ever eaten. I was discussing it with Tom Kerridge and he agrees - anyone else want to try one?'
This subject is close to my heart and has been so for many years, and it applies much more generally to life than Hi-Fi.
Gradually over my lifetime, as an honest person, I have increasingly realised that not only are a great number of people dishonest, but that they are so instinctually because that behaviour has become embedded in their personalities as a result of the 'profits' they have made in life.
I base my own morality of four principles which have become a deeply embedded obsession with me; honesty, sincerity, integrity and authenticity. If people comply with these they have to be good people; these restrict behaviour from being immoral.
But we are in a predatory society, in which for example, on R4 a few days ago, a professor described capitalism now as 'surveillance capitalism'. Apparently some TVs have cameras on them allowing your own personal life to be under surveillance, and there is no doubt that we are the most surveilled country in the world.
But it is the deliberate usage of this data which is of concern rather more than perhaps wrong advice or recommendation given with good intent.
I have had to study much psychology in order to try to understand how and why people have multiple accounts of reality, and causally many have low integration personalities, often deceiving themselves, and doing so out of their own awareness. They partition their minds, and 'edit' their own accounts of the past and in particular their own behaviour, this to allow themselves to obtain false self esteem using fantasy.
In the case of product selling it is worth looking at the work of Freud's cousin Edward Bernhays, who developed the discipline of Public Relations. He decided to get people to consume on the basis or created 'wants', rather than instinctual needs, this in order to promote capitalism. One result was the consumption by large numbers of people of cigarettes, this killing thousands of women because it became an icon of liberation for them. He would no doubt be held to account today.
Our subjective reactions to sound quality are very much individual, and are brain based, this making absolute evaluation rather problematic, and we surely must try to be a rigorous as possible and avoid influence from factors other than the sound itself.
I do not really have a good grasp of the concept of 'shilling', and had thought it to be using associates to falsly bid for an item in order, through competition to raise the selling price, but I now see that it is also having a loyalty to a product and promoting it whilst appearing to be neutral.
I see honesty as a casualty in our modern society, and evidence abounds to support this view, but genuine enthusiasm can be a result of an infatuation, which may be resulting from genuine passion, or delusion
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 09:59
[emoji55]
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 09:59
I look forward to your next advert then.
That was another dig, despite advice against turning things personal. Best give it a rest!
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 10:04
That was another dig, despite advice against turning things personal. Best give it a rest!
[emoji58]
Spectral Morn
15-02-2019, 10:08
Apologies for the thread diversion into a petty argument.
No more attacking individual members. Stay on topic.
willbewill
15-02-2019, 10:11
It's a fact!
Nobody sells anything because they still want it.
Not so my friend, I have on numerous occasions sold items that I would rather keep as the result of needing cash urgently.
When we downsized house I also sold the hifi that I loved as it did not fit in with the new location.
Also many folks like to try different things, for some that is a major part of the hobby.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 10:12
Not so my friend, I have on numerous occasions sold items that I would rather keep as the result of needing cash urgently.
When we downsized house I also sold the hifi that I loved as it did not fit in with the new location.
Also many folks like to try different things, for some that is a major part of the hobby.Ah, yes. I accept that and did that myself previously when my brakes needed replacing.
You are right to point that out.
As for Richard's opening post, well he's entitled to tell it as he sees it, which is precisely what this section of the forum is for [we value ALL constructive feedback from members] - although it's a pity folks seem to forget that Critics Corner exists, and just lump discussions such as this (which has nothing to do with hi-fi) into Blank Canvas.
That aside, I sympathise with Richard's views, simply because if you step outside of your own 'immediate world', as in what your mates and you are up to with hi-fi, at any given time, especially if there's a significant following of other members doing the same, then it's very easy to construe unbridled enthusiasm towards something new that we think is great (which after all is human nature), and a subsequent desire to excitedly tell the whole world about it, as being something more sinister, such as shilling.
Therefore, if you're not into the latest 'whatever' it is being shouted about/discussed with some enthusiasm on forums, that innocent enthusiasm may come across rather differently than it would if you were right into it/directly involved in it, or indeed a happy user of whatever it is. So as ever in life, sometimes you need to step outside of your 'immediate world', to see yourself as you really are, or indeed your behaviour as it's often seen by 'outsiders'...
That said, and I'm in full agreement here with Jeff, unless there is obvious [and factually provable] evidence of underhand behaviour/shilling, which we would deal with instantly, by applying a lifetime ban to those who were guilty, we simply allow folks to 'apply their own filter' - that is if you think that someone's talking bullshit, then challenge them accordingly or simply ignore them.
It's not up to us (admin or mods) to nominate someone as a 'bullshitter', as what universally acceptable criteria would you use to judge such? And if you think there's genuinely something underhand going on, and have *credible evidence* of such, then the correct course of action is to inform either myself or one of the mods, and we'll deal with it.
However, we will not stifle or 'gag' someone's natural (and entirely innocent) enthusiasm or keenness to recommend a particular product, for fear of it being seen as 'shilling'. Some folk have shilling on the brain, simply because they have an agenda of their own, and indeed are often the biggest serial 'shillers' of all! They're just very careful and rather sly with how they go about it.
As is often said, and this applies to the mania in some quarters about shills: 'It takes one to know one';)
Marco.
No more attacking individual members. Stay on topic.
Some people can't help themselves - not aimed at any one person BTW.
The bacon sandwich example shows exactly what I'm talking about - no-one has been to the tea shop in question, no-one knows if Tom Kerridge has either, or if he has even commented. But once the name of someone revered in the field is mentioned, people start to open their wallets. What if Tom and I were friends and therefore shills for Mrs Miggins? She might not even know or participate in the practice but it's happening all the less.
He missed the point - purposely in my opinion Marco.
Doesn't matter. There's no excuse for personal attacks. You can make your point perfectly well without resorting to name calling.
Indeed, the next person to do so, or turn things personal [I don't care *who*] will be out for a week, without any further warning.
Marco.
ianlenco
15-02-2019, 10:20
I don't have a problem with folk being enthusiastic about a certain product. It might tempt me to do some more research to see if it would suit my needs but I know in the end if I make a purchase it is on my head if I don't share the enthusiasm - same as if I purchased based on "professional" hifi review recommendations.
What does irritate me a little (OK maybe a lot in some cases) is when people express negative opinions on products/technologies they've never heard. A common one is that full range drivers like my Jordan Eikonas can't do bass or can't do treble. Another is that all Class D amps are cold and sterile or words to that effect. There are lots of other examples of this across fora, AoS is no better or worse than other places.
Doesn't matter. There's no excuse for personal attacks. You can make your point perfectly well without resorting to name calling.
Indeed, the next person to do so, or turn things personal [I don't care *who*] will be out for a week.
Marco.
I cannot see how it was personal - I suggested he was missing the point and likened the missed point to an object. However, I appreciate your stance - noted.
I don't have a problem with folk being enthusiastic about a certain product. It might tempt me to do some more research to see if it would suit my needs but I know in the end if I make a purchase it is on my head if I don't share the enthusiasm - same as if I purchased based on "professional" hifi review recommendations.
What does irritate me a little (OK maybe a lot in some cases) is when people express negative opinions on products/technologies they've never heard. A common one is that full range drivers like my Jordan Eikonas can't do bass or can't do treble. Another is that all Class D amps are cold and sterile or words to that effect. There are lots of other examples of this across fora, AoS is no better or worse than other places.
My original point was, as you say, hifi fora in general are the problem. Agree that none are any better than worse than any other.
I cannot see how it was personal - I suggested he was missing the point and likened the missed point to an object. However, I appreciate your stance - noted.
Joe, you need to learn when to back off and give it a rest, as you appear to be one of these folk who always insists on having the last word!:doh:
You don't refer to someone as an "unserviceable dart". End of. That's derogatory, and completely unnecessary. I don't care how you seek to justify it. *I'm* the arbiter here of what's acceptable behaviour or not. So no more backchat, or you'll be out for a week.
Marco.
I base my own morality of four principles which have become a deeply embedded obsession with me; honesty, sincerity, integrity and authenticity. If people comply with these they have to be good people; these restrict behaviour from being immoral.
As Sam Goldwyn said: 'The most important thing is sincerity. If you can fake that, you got it made'.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 10:40
Some people can't help themselves - not aimed at any one person BTW.
The bacon sandwich example shows exactly what I'm talking about - no-one has been to the tea shop in question, no-one knows if Tom Kerridge has either, or if he has even commented. But once the name of someone revered in the field is mentioned, people start to open their wallets. What if Tom and I were friends and therefore shills for Mrs Miggins? She might not even know or participate in the practice but it's happening all the less.There's two ways to look at this example:
A) You are name dropping a famous celebrity to bring custom to a little known tea shop. You may be affiliated or operating alone or you may be in cahoots with the owner.
Or
B) You have been to the tea shop, after talking with your good friend Tom, and decided it was so good that you simply HAVE to shout it from the rooftops.
I would have absolutely no way of knowing which is the case. So what do I do when I read your statement about the cafe?
I either subscribe to the theory that the review can't be trusted because you're obviously a shill for the tearoom. I have absolutely no evidence to support this theory but there's little information on it and you seem overly excited about it. You live close to it and could possibly be on a share scheme that gave you an incentive to promote it.
Or
I read it, trust that you are genuinely impressed and think that it's somewhere that sounds interesting. This theory is highly likely and makes more sense. I have no reason to doubt that you went there. I plan to go there, try the tea room and makeup my my own mind and report back.
Which option you choose entirely depends on your mentality. The choice of A or B is made in accordance with your feelings towards the individual. If I thought you were a dishonest, bad person I'd pick A, if I thought you were genuine, I'd pick B.
What I'd never do, is go to the tea room EXPECTING it to be the best in the world. Id make up my own mind. If it was, I'd let everyone know I thought it was.
If it wasn't, I'd know that you and I have a different opinion of what makes a good bacon sandwich and understand that on the subject of tea rooms, it's unlikely that I'd follow your recommendation again.
Whilst this is a metaphorical scenario, the process is the same for HIFI.
I suspect most peoples verdict on the SQ of a system is based on the price point they are working at.
Someone with a £1000 system may find an amplifier that they describe as "the best I have ever heard", and it may well be. But someone with a £10000 system (for instance) may have improved significantly on that amp many years ago.
I am not suggesting that money is the only criteria involved but it does help to put comments in context.
There's two ways to look at this example:
A) You are name dropping a famous celebrity to bring custom to a little known tea shop. You may be affiliated or operating alone or you may be in cahoots with the owner.
Or
B) You have been to the tea shop, after talking with your good friend Tom, and decided it was so good that you simply HAVE to shout it from the rooftops.
I would have absolutely no way of knowing which is the case. So what do I do when I read your statement about the cafe?
I either subscribe to the theory that the review can't be trusted because you're obviously a shill for the tearoom. I have absolutely no evidence to support this theory but there's little information on it and you seem overly excited about it. You live close to it and could possibly be on a share scheme that gave you an incentive to promote it.
Or
I read it, trust that you are genuinely impressed and think that it's somewhere that sounds interesting. This theory is highly likely and makes more sense. I have no reason to doubt that you went there. I plan to go there, try the tea room and makeup my my own mind and report back.
Which option you choose entirely depends on your mentality.
What I'd never do, is go to the tea room EXPECTING it to be the best in the world. Id make up my own mind. If it was, I'd let everyone know I thought it was.
If it wasn't, I'd know that you and I have a different opinion of what makes a good bacon sandwich and understand that on the subject of tea rooms, it's unlikely that I'd follow your recommendation again.
Whilst this is a metaphorical scenario, the process is the same for HIFI.
Famous name = well respected and long standing member on a forum. It happens - you know it and I know it.
Another example - if you are driving home in the evening and the police pull you over and breath test you do you a) kick off and just protest too much or
b) willingly blow into the meter, knowing you haven't had a beers since last Saturday
because in this thread you are doing a) at the moment. If there's nothing to hide, why bother? No-one else is....
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 10:54
Famous name = well respected and long standing member on a forum. It happens - you know it and I know it.
Another example - if you are driving home in the evening and the police pull you over and breath test you do you a) kick off and just protest too much or
b) willingly blow into the meter, knowing you haven't had a beers since last Saturday
because in this thread you are doing a) at the moment. If there's nothing to hide, why bother? No-one else is....Oh, so now I'm a shill for challenging the subject and lack of examples being provided?
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 10:56
Thread suspended. Marco may have something to say!
Ok, no more veiled (or not so veiled) accusations of shilling from anyone, unless you have conclusive proof of such, in which case contact me via PM. Otherwise, there should be no further discussion of that matter, and anyone I consider has been guilty of such will be out for a week, with no further warning.
Joe (Cyrus), if you've joined this forum, largely to be an irritant and 'poke' folk (or views) you dislike [which evidence so far appears to suggest], then you won't be here long. Examining your contributions to date reveals that the vast majority have been posts on 'controversial' threads, such as this and the Grounding Box one, not to mention the 'little disagreement' we had recently over car headlight bulbs.
Now this matter isn't up for debate, so don't bother replying trying to justify yourself, as I'm firm on my opinion of you here so far.
I suggest that if you want to change my opinion, and have desires to be here in future, and PROVE that I'm wrong about you, that you start some threads of your own, talking about your interests in hi-fi, music, or any other permitted subjects, instead of simply what at the moment is coming across as carefully-considered trolling, and stay away from 'controversial' threads for a while, or action will be taken to prevent you from carrying out what seems like an agenda.
Marco.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 12:32
Through strong and consistant recommendations/review from people on here , not all linked, I have a couple of pieces of kit from 1 manufacturer in particular. I have a Firebottle Phono stage and mono blocks. They have increased my musical pleasure no end and I would never have heard of or considered them if it was not for people on the forum posting reviews etc.
I made my own choices when investing my money and have not regretted it at all. Am i a victim of over promoted gear , no i don't think so. As long as reviews etc are posted honestly and we recognise that than that is all that matters.
The more options we are made aware of the better, ar the end of the day nobody on here can force you to spend tour money, it's your choice and if something gives good vfm then why not talk about it?
Given my experience I would recommend those bits of kit to anybody , whether they take that up or not is down to them.
Never met Alan only exchanged pms very occasionally, so I put myself in a satisfied customer bracket not shilling mate bracket . [emoji41]
Sent from my SM-G950F using TapatalkMissed this earlier Andy,
I know I led you to the Firebottle gear and I'm glad you like what have. If you'd bought it and it didn't live up to my words, I'm sure you'd have sold it and told me so.
I recommended a cartridge to a guy here. An AT33PTG. When I met him in person, he told me it was shit. I was mortified. He then upgraded a few bits judiciously and suddenly his AT33PTG was superb. He'll confirm this tale, if he wishes.
The problem wasn't the recommended cartridge, it was the surrounding kit. Once he'd invested, the cartridge came to life. This was an important lessons to me. You can recommend something that works great in your system but it may not work at all in someone else's.
I'd be uneasy thinking that someone would buy or investigate a piece of kit that didn't do what I said it did. Now, I'm more selective about what I recommend. I also only write down EXACTLY what I think. Good or bad.
Not trying to inflame but just to reconcile two opposing viewpoints:
People sell for a variety of reasons, the only unequivocal motivation is a wish to transform the item into money since that is what they get in return. They might have got better stuff, have moved on, think they are selling crap and talking it up, be in a fix and need cash, be selling stuff they have inherited or have no interest in, so many reasons. Caveat emptor, and salesmanship does not necessarily imply dishonesty.
Luckily I have bought from more decent sellers than bad ones over the years, on here, the Wam, even eBay.
Edit: Tapatalk left me adrift of the intervening 15 or so posts, my point has been made already, apologies.
Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
Audio Al
15-02-2019, 12:47
Hi mods please put in the right section when necessary.
I joined AoS thinking it was probably the most straight forward & honest HiFi forums.
Unfortunately I don't think that now. Reading quite a few posts I sense that there's a degree of 'promoting' other members gear.
Of course I'm going to get a load of £h1t for suggesting this but having spoken to other members in person I'm not too bothered, they feel the same.
Stop overrating your friends product.
The integrity of this forum is very important.
:sofa: Blimey :eek: ,Best go on PFM or WW then if its that bad for you :(
Ive bought stuff from forums that have been oversold and undersold. it is up to the buyer to decide before making his/her choice. As for friends bigging up stuff, sure, it happens, but usually because they have heard it and thought it was good. Not saying it couldnt happen the other way, but i dont see evidence of it here(and i read nearly every post). As stated by the Boss, anyone doing so will be banned if its proven.
Trouble is in most cases its just sheer enthusiasm, more than anything underhand. Lets face it, if your unable to make your own choices and accept you made a mistake when buying when it doesnt sound so good as expected, then you need to look at yourself. There is a blame culture in this country now that i find distasteful.....its always someone else's fault.
Audio Al
15-02-2019, 13:00
Ive bought stuff from forums that have been oversold and undersold. it is up to the buyer to decide before making his/her choice. As for friends bigging up stuff, sure, it happens, but usually because they have heard it and thought it was good. Not saying it couldnt happen the other way, but i dont see evidence of it here(and i read nearly every post). As stated by the Boss, anyone doing so will be banned if its proven.
Trouble is in most cases its just sheer enthusiasm, more than anything underhand. Lets face it, if your unable to make your own choices and accept you made a mistake when buying when it doesnt sound so good as expected, then you need to look at yourself. There is a blame culture in this country now that i find distasteful.....its always someone else's fault.
YES I AGREE , its all Grant's fault :ner:
Trouble is in most cases its just sheer enthusiasm, more than anything underhand. Lets face it, if your unable to make your own choices and accept you made a mistake when buying when it doesnt sound so good as expected, then you need to look at yourself. There is a blame culture in this country now that i find distasteful.....its always someone else's fault.
Well said.
Added to which you've got people who deliberately want to stir it up, possibly due to mental health issues or possibly because they are just nasty pieces of work.
I don't really understand why anyone would want to play into their hands by making accusations, especially when they are so generalised that no-one can be sure exactly who or what they have in mind. At least with a specific allegation it can be investigated, without that it's just stirring the pot for no good reason and that pisses me off.
Hi mods please put in the right section when necessary.
I joined AoS thinking it was probably the most straight forward & honest HiFi forums.
Unfortunately I don't think that now. Reading quite a few posts I sense that there's a degree of 'promoting' other members gear.
Of course I'm going to get a load of £h1t for suggesting this but having spoken to other members in person I'm not too bothered, they feel the same.
Stop overrating your friends product.
The integrity of this forum is very important.
Richard, there is no such place as a perfect forum. Every now and then there will be things said that don't sit well with some. And so it is with any large gathering, online or otherwise. That said, AOS is, in my mind, as good as it gets. There is an overriding civility and decency here that is not found in any other audio forum that I know of. Trolls are chased out from under their bridges, insults and direct attacks are not tolerated, for the most part the focus is on helping and offering honest advice....I could go on. So if, occasionally, something is said that may be a bit offside, then hey, that comes with the territory. Walk away for an hour or so, chill, have a drink, and consider the big picture. How bad is it really? And does it really matter? We live in an age where people are so, so, easily offended, and by the slightest little things. In my mind, that is no way to live a life, as it leads to perpetual discontentment and unhappiness.
I sincerely hope you come to like it here.
All the best,
Svend
I'm an adult, I can make my own mind up as to who is shilling and who is just enthusiastic about a product they've tried.
I'll make my own mind up about what I buy don't care who is selling it, shilling it, reviewing it etc etc. I'LL DECIDE [emoji6]
For me there what's it's all about no one is forcing you to buy anything totally up to you [emoji4]
Missed this earlier Andy,
I know I led you to the Firebottle gear and I'm glad you like what have. If you'd bought it and it didn't live up to my words, I'm sure you'd have sold it and told me so.
I recommended a cartridge to a guy here. An AT33PTG. When I met him in person, he told me it was shit. I was mortified. He then upgraded a few bits judiciously and suddenly his AT33PTG was superb. He'll confirm this tale, if he wishes.
The problem wasn't the recommended cartridge, it was the surrounding kit. Once he'd invested, the cartridge came to life. This was an important lessons to me. You can recommend something that works great in your system but it may not work at all in someone else's.
I'd be uneasy thinking that someone would buy or investigate a piece of kit that didn't do what I said it did. Now, I'm more selective about what I recommend. I also only write down EXACTLY what I think. Good or bad.
Hi the person you refer to is Me, I got the PTG and thought it was crap, I also said so!! I made a few changes to my system, namely a head amp and hey presto Fantastic., I also said that too.
I then met a member on this forum and and arranged to go listen to his system and thought it was far superior sounding to mine and asked him to make me a pair of Monos, when I got them home I thought More Crap but after a few week they sounded beautiful, I also made comment on the forum on how good they were.
I finally due to insufficient fund I decided to build my own Preamp and was amazed that I had built something that sounded sublime (imho) and made my feelings known on this forum, I have since built 5, each getting slightly better and also mad my findings public knowledge on the forum.
I have gained nothing in terms of monetary gains only experience and a few more people I call FRIEND S.
Just now wondering what that makes me ??? Happy that's what!!!!
I make no bones about saying how good my Firebottle Monos are, how bloody good my home built Preamp is or how good the whole system sounds being connected using Spotfires. Im entitled to shout about how good I think something is just as the next man is free to say the system stinks. Is that not what this forum was designed for??? Its up to the individual to make up his own mind and not slate anyone for giving an opinion.
Steve...
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 14:55
Hi the person you refer to is Me, I got the PTG and thought it was crap, I also said so!! I made a few changes to my system, namely a head amp and hey presto Fantastic., I also said that too.
I then met a member on this forum and and arranged to go listen to his system and thought it was far superior sounding to mine and asked him to make me a pair of Monos, when I got them home I thought More Crap but after a few week they sounded beautiful, I also made comment on the forum on how good they were.
I finally due to insufficient fund I decided to build my own Preamp and was amazed that I had built something that sounded sublime (imho) and made my feelings known on this forum, I have since built 5, each getting slightly better and also mad my findings public knowledge on the forum.
I have gained nothing in terms of monetary gains only experience and a few more people I call FRIEND S.
Just now wondering what that makes me ??? Happy that's what!!!!
Steve...Great post.
Yes, gained a friend here mate.
Amazing that out of all the things I recommended to you, I never made a penny or made any personal gain !
That's what this forum is about IMO.
Community spirit. If that doesn't work for you, you're in the wrong place.
Great post.
Yes, gained a friend here mate.
Amazing that out of all the things I recommended to you, I never made a penny or made any personal gain !
That's what this forum is about IMO.
Community spirit. If that doesn't work for you, you're in the wrong place.
Nope , never made a dime, just made a few friends, gaind a lot of helpful information but most important to a man with a limited budget, and through meeting a certain member on here learned the art of soldering my fingers and burning my kitchen table :ner:
Richard, there is no such place as a perfect forum. Every now and then there will be things said that don't sit well with some. And so it is with any large gathering, online or otherwise. That said, AOS is, in my mind, as good as it gets. There is an overriding civility and decency here that is not found in any other audio forum that I know of. Trolls are chased out from under their bridges, insults and direct attacks are not tolerated, for the most part the focus is on helping and offering honest advice....I could go on. So if, occasionally, something is said that may be a bit offside, then hey, that comes with the territory. Walk away for an hour or so, chill, have a drink, and consider the big picture. How bad is it really? And does it really matter? We live in an age where people are so, so, easily offended, and by the slightest little things. In my mind, that is no way to live a life, as it leads to perpetual discontentment and unhappiness.
I sincerely hope you come to like it here.
+1, Svend. I couldn't have said it better myself!!:clap::thumbsup:
Marco.
Aw get a room!
We need to be very careful that know one finds out were going to the audio jumble on Sunday mate .
People might talk SSshhhhhhhh!!!
Well said.
Added to which you've got people who deliberately want to stir it up, possibly due to mental health issues or possibly because they are just nasty pieces of work.
I don't really understand why anyone would want to play into their hands by making accusations, especially when they are so generalised that no-one can be sure exactly who or what they have in mind. At least with a specific allegation it can be investigated, without that it's just stirring the pot for no good reason and that pisses me off.
Out of interest, how is saying someone has mental health issues, or are nasty pieces of work any different from the earlier “name calling” in this thread.
A good debate is always welcome from my point of view, but it needs to remain on the subject without finger pointing and name calling. If not, it may as well stay in the playground where that kind of behaviour belongs.
There are certain threads on this forum that I don’t read after a couple of pages, as I already know the content of the thread, and I am not interested in it.
As for hyped up products, that is a part of HiFi and a reason why HiFi manufacturers still exist. I have mistakingly bought HiFi product that was the best thing since sliced bread. I didn’t like it. I took it back. If you buy new, then you are within your rights to do so. I have also bought products blind, solely based on reviews of complete strangers, and I have been delighted. The big difference is that you may for this with HiFi magazines, and on the forums it’s generally free.
It is up to you to decide if you are happy with your system, or if you want to change something. If you want to change something, do your research and make your own decision. Only you can decide if you want to invest in something. Take grounding boxes for example. I think the price point of certain products is ridiculous, so my interest in them is very small. Cables can make a difference (as I am sure grounding boxes can) but it is all about integration and proper matching. The difference is generally small, but noticeable. Anybody who claims massive improvements small small tweaks goes on my “take advice with a pinch of salt” list.
At the end of the day, if you don’t like what you see on the telly, change channel or turn it off.
We need to be very careful that know one finds out were going to the audio jumble on Sunday mate .
People might talk SSshhhhhhhh!!!
Just deny deny deny lol
That always works for me.
Hi Kevin,
Out of interest, how is saying someone has mental health issues, or are nasty pieces of work any different from the earlier “name calling” in this thread.
A good debate is always welcome from my point of view, but it needs to remain on the subject without finger pointing and name calling. If not, it may as well stay in the playground where that kind of behaviour belongs.
In terms of your first point, because it's simply a general observation (although arguably unwise), and not aimed at one specific individual, unlike the previous name-calling you're referring to. However, I'm sure you'll agree that there are plenty of "nasty pieces of work" on forums, and also some folk who arguably display signs of mental health issues... You know *exactly* who I mean, as you've said so yourself!;)
In terms of your second point, I agree, but I'm afraid that posting a succession of daft smilies, as you did earlier, did nothing to further a good debate, which is why they were removed. You might've thought it was funny, which is fair enough, but it wasn't funny for others.
As for playground behaviour, we've just banned Cyrus, specifically for that and his stupid piss-take thread about sausages. If folk want to come here and behave like children, then they'll be treated as such! That also applies if their goal is simply to be an irritant, in which case they can go and do it somewhere else.
Quite frankly, some folk have got way too much to say for themselves (especially when it comes to forum politics), and somehow think they're entitled to 'do what they like' (usually behave like selfish, inconsiderate pricks), regardless of the consequences. Well NOT on here, as it won't be tolerated!
Marco.
Nobody will know if it was funny or not, as they were deleted.
There is no point having them if you can’t use them...
Indeed. Thing is though, what you consider as 'humorous' won't always be appreciated by others, and in fact could inflame matters, which is why on this occasion the similes concerned were removed, and indeed in line with anything else deemed as inappropriate content.
Marco.
We need to be very careful that know one finds out were going to the audio jumble on Sunday mate .
People might talk SSshhhhhhhh!!!
I'm going to the jumble on Sunday perhaps we could meet and talk about Firebottle mono's☺
I'm going to the jumble on Sunday perhaps we could meet and talk about Firebottle mono's☺
Certainly Martin :thumbsup:
As for playground behaviour, we've just banned Cyrus, specifically for that and his stupid piss-take thread about sausages. If folk want to come here and behave like children, then they'll be treated as such! That also applies if their goal is simply to be an irritant, in which case they can go and do it somewhere else.
Marco.
Don’t tell me the sausage thread has been deleted too?
Wine, whisky, real ale and cheese is fine, but sausages??? Bang(er) out of order?
I hope not, as there are some cracking sausage around and I feel it would go nicely with the other food related threads.
Don’t tell me the sausage thread has been deleted too?
Wine, whisky, real ale and cheese is fine, but sausages??? Bang(er) out of order?
Ha - very good!:D
Marco.
anyway everyone should know they should be called snorkers.
Indeed, and on the subject of sausages, how's your pork sword these days. mate? Still got that nasty rash, from poking it where you shouldn't?:eyebrows:
Marco.
And I was told to stay on subject by the mod team. :ner:
Not necessarily 'on subject' (as AoS thread-drift is legendary); simply not off-subject/topic to the extent of winding anyone up.
And btw, while we're at it, a bit of laddish banter/toilet humour and/or 'smut' will always be part and parcel of this forum (as it appeals to my sense of humour, and I'm NOT ashamed of it in the slightest), so if you don't like it, either ignore it or go somewhere else for prudish little snowflakes, which you think is better!:ner:
Marco.
If that is directed at me, I ignore it. It would be easier if it was just on one thread though.
Indeed, and on the subject of sausages, how's your pork sword these days. mate? Still got that nasty rash, from poking it where you shouldn't?:eyebrows:
Marco.
been removed and pickled. currently on show at the Tate:D
If that is directed at me, I ignore it. It would be easier if it was just on one thread though.
Nope, certainly not directed at you personally. I was simply making a general point. Threads here are treated as 'real life' conversations, where topics of discussion are never rigidly fixed, and where humour (appreciated by the folks in your company) is often injected at regular intervals.
Many of the regulars here, and I, enjoy that type of humour, and so that's the way it'll always be:)
Marco.
been removed and pickled. currently on show at the Tate:D
Same here, although mine is inside a slightly bigger frame:eyebrows:
Marco.
Same here, although mine is inside a slightly bigger frame:eyebrows:
Marco.
That's nothing, They're having to build a whole new wing to house mine.
Firebottle
15-02-2019, 18:20
Is that a sparrow wing or a wren wing?
Blimey Marco and Joe arguing over car headlight bulbs. And I thought Brexit was boring :lol:
Hehehe... Well, I guess that trolls/nuisances will pick a fight over any old bollocks!:D
Marco.
Old bollocks.... now there is a thread title if ever I saw one.
Hey, what this old bollocks I heard about x being better than y?
if this thread proves one thing. AOS does Irony really well
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 19:17
Aw get a room!
Apparently Marco and Macca have a "mod room" which they rent by the hour...
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 19:20
Not necessarily 'on subject' (as AoS thread-drift is legendary); simply not off-subject/topic to the extent of winding anyone up.
And btw, while we're at it, a bit of laddish banter/toilet humour and/or 'smut' will always be part and parcel of this forum (as it appeals to my sense of humour, and I'm NOT ashamed of it in the slightest), so if you don't like it, either ignore it or go somewhere else for prudish little snowflakes, which you think is better!:ner:
Marco.
Phew! Looks like I'm safe for now :)
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 19:23
That's nothing, They're having to build a whole new wing to house mine.
That's nothing. They're housing that new wing inside mine.
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 19:24
Albatross.
Do you get wafers with it?
if this thread proves one thing. AOS does Irony really well
Thanks man. Personally I don't feel that we always quite get there, but it's good to know our efforts are appreciated.
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 19:27
Old bollocks.... now there is a thread title if ever I saw one.
Hey, what this old bollocks I heard about x being better than y?
Old bollocks - how low can you go?
Irony as opposed to woody?
I'm a bit late to the party for this and haven't read all 11 pages but, whilst I don't necessarily have a problem with the subject, I can see what the OP is saying as I have noticed the same myself.
Again I want to stress what I'm about to say isn't a criticism of this site, the person I'm going to name, his products, or anybody praising them. Nor am I suggesting any wrongdoing on anybody part.
Since joining the forum I've noticed quite a few posts singing the praises of Firebottle and his products. Now I don't know Firebottle (Alan?) or anything about what he makes so as far as I know everything said may be true, however it does appear the man can do no wrong and may well be able to walk on water (joke) from what I've read on here.
I can see how this could be perceived in the way the OP does however I can't say that's how I interpreted the numerous threads and posts about him.
I hope I've put this across in the manner I intended, that being an observation not a criticism of anybody concerned
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 19:38
Irony as opposed to woody?
Little known fact:
When Ozzy Osbourne sang about being an "Irony Man" he wasn't being serious. But he had to change it slightly because his manager warned it would flop In the US, as they don't get irony.
Gaz,
I know what you mean. Though to me it always seems to be one person praising Alan to the heavens. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest shilling or anything underhand but I can see why the OP has made the observations he has.
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 19:53
Things are descending to the personal level again. Best avoided thanks.
Alan is a very helpful and decent bloke. He has helped out dozens, probably hundreds of folk here, often for free so it's not surprising his praises get sung.
Things are descending to the personal level again. Best avoided thanks.
I apologise if that was to me.
I named a name as everybody seemed to be beating about the bush.
I tried to make it clear I wasn't criticising anybody but apologise sincerely if my comments were over the mark
if this thread proves one thing. AOS does Irony really well
Explain please?
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 19:59
I'm a bit late to the party for this and haven't read all 11 pages but, whilst I don't necessarily have a problem with the subject, I can see what the OP is saying as I have noticed the same myself.
Again I want to stress what I'm about to say isn't a criticism of this site, the person I'm going to name, his products, or anybody praising them. Nor am I suggesting any wrongdoing on anybody part.
Since joining the forum I've noticed quite a few posts singing the praises of Firebottle and his products. Now I don't know Firebottle (Alan?) or anything about what he makes so as far as I know everything said may be true, however it does appear the man can do no wrong and may well be able to walk on water (joke) from what I've read on here.
I can see how this could be perceived in the way the OP does however I can't say that's how I interpreted the numerous threads and posts about him.
I hope I've put this across in the manner I intended, that being an observation not a criticism of anybody concerned
If it appears that Alan can do no wrong, you clearly missed all the posts about his trousers :D
I may be one of those who sang his praises once or twice, but only because I HAVE met him, and found him to be genuine, and clearly what he does is a labour of love.* I'm sure there are plenty of folk on here similarly enthusiastic, and hopefully I'll get to meet some of these people too. Until that day comes I'll refrain from making any judgements, one way or t'other.
*I have no affiliation with the Firebottle Audio Corporation, and any apparent creepy bum licks is purely unintentional :)
Gaz,
I know what you mean. Though to me it always seems to be one person praising Alan to the heavens. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest shilling or anything underhand but I can see why the OP has made the observations he has.
Hence why I sympathised with his view.
Marco.
I may be one of those who sang his praises once or twice, but only because I HAVE met him, and found him to be genuine, and clearly what he does is a labour of love.* I'm sure there are plenty of folk on here similarly enthusiastic, and hopefully I'll get to meet some of these people too.
If every forum had someone like Alan, posting and devoting their time to help the community, they'd be a far better place. It's people such as him, and the other small traders/DIY enthusiasts we have here, who epitomise the AoS ethos.
The 'dissers' are simply jealous malcontents, who would love to receive similar attention and praise, especially those who also make equipment, but are forced to use ebay to promote and sell their wares, as they've been (rightfully) banned from every hi-fi forum worthy of the name!:D
Marco.
name calling of people NOT on the forum is ok then?
If every forum had someone like Alan, posting and devoting their time to help the community, they'd be a far better place. It's people such as him, and the other small traders/DIY enthusiasts we have here, who epitomise the AoS ethos.
The 'dissers' are simply jealous malcontents, who would love to receive similar attention and praise, especially those who also make equipment, but are forced to use ebay to promote and sell their wares, as they've been (rightfully) banned from every hi-fi forum worthy of the name!:D
Marco.
I have never met Alan and I haven’t bought any of his products but I can say that he has always been quick with technical advice when I’ve needed it ( as have plenty of others ) .
Ps. Any discounts for brown nosing Alan ?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 20:24
name calling of people NOT on the forum is ok then?
Surely after being a member here for apparently seven odd years you'd be aware of what folk are comfortable with?
name calling of people NOT on the forum is ok then?
Pointless rather than ok I'd have thought? As in "I know a chap called Steve who isn't in audio forums at all, and he's a bit of a prat..."
trust me I'm constantly amazed with the goalposts locations
Apparently Marco and Macca have a "mod room" which they rent by the hour...
Would you like access?
I should warn that it can only be granted after completing the sacred ritual, which involves prostrating yourself on a prayer mat and paying homage to your leader, by drinking my bath water [saved from 2016, replete with toenail clippings], and repeatedly chanting: 'Long may your fart gas reek, oh great one' - oh and paper clips and a pirate's mask are also involved at one stage, but don't worry, that'll be explained later.
Marco.
Alan is a very helpful and decent bloke. He has helped out dozens, probably hundreds of folk here, often for free so it's not surprising his praises get sung.
Exactly right.
name calling of people NOT on the forum is ok then?
Where was that? Quotes please, of that actually happening. If you're referring to my post, directly above yours, then that's simply how you've interpreted what I wrote.
Marco.
Would you like access? I should warn that it can only be granted after completing the sacred ritual, which involves prostrating yourself on a prayer mat and paying homage to your leader, by drinking my bath water [saved from 2016, replete with toenail clippings], and repeatedly chanting: 'Long may your fart gas reek' - oh and paper clips and a pirate's mask are also involved at one stage, but don't worry, that'll be explained later.
Marco.
We're not doing the thing with the burning card no more then?
trust me I'm constantly amazed with the goalposts locations
Or maybe you're just too interested in forum politics/other people's battles for your own good, and should keep your nose out of things that have nothing to do with you?
Just a thought...
Marco.
We're not doing the thing with the burning card no more then?
Unfortunately not since Geoff seemed to enjoy the pain!
Marco.
Yeah I won money on that IIRC
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 20:48
We're not doing the thing with the burning card no more then?
No. And don't mention 'the barrel', that may put him off. :eek:
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 20:49
Unfortunately not since Geoff seemed to enjoy the pain!
Marco.
I feel no pain................Well, not a lot! :D
I'm a bit late to the party for this and haven't read all 11 pages but, whilst I don't necessarily have a problem with the subject, I can see what the OP is saying as I have noticed the same myself.
Yep - tend to agree.
But this is what happens with most 'niche' forums in my experience and doesn't particularly surprise (or bother) me.
A few voices tend to dominate simply by posting more than others - only remedy is for 'quieter' forum members to post more.... or simply ignore the stuff that bores the pants off you.
Exactly right, Mike, although I may have put it slightly differently. However, such behaviour doesn't *automatically* constitute as shilling!
Only if you're blinkered and have a biased agenda [which incidentally threads like this are great at exposing] would you consider Ollie's behaviour as such, or indeed anyone else here guilty of simply 'bigging up' (no pun intended:D) something that they consider as excellent.
In that respect, there's *no way* on this earth that anyone here will be asked to curb their natural enthusiasm towards a piece of equipment, which has sonically blown them away, simply because some find it annoying, or it irks a few jealous idiots elsewhere, desperate for attention, who suffer from issues of inadequacy.
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 21:03
Would you like access?
I should warn that it can only be granted after completing the sacred ritual, which involves prostrating yourself on a prayer mat and paying homage to your leader, by drinking my bath water [saved from 2016, replete with toenail clippings], and repeatedly chanting: 'Long may your fart gas reek, oh great one' - oh and paper clips and a pirate's mask are also involved at one stage, but don't worry, that'll be explained later.
Marco.
Yep that all sounds do-able, but you will have to explain the paper clips - that sounds a bit perverted that does. Is there a dress code for this mod room? I do have a parka with "Quadrophenia" printed on the back, but it's at the dry cleaners as the cat pissed on it.
I do have a parka with "Quadrophenia" printed on the back, but it's at the dry cleaners as the cat pissed on it.
Your cat clearly has excellent musical tastes.
Thanks man. Personally I don't feel that we always quite get there, but it's good to know our efforts are appreciated.
My only talent is for self-deprecation, but I'm not very good at it.
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 21:13
I do have a parka with "Quadrophenia" printed on the back
That should look quite effective over the blue latex gimp suit.
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 21:15
Your cat clearly has excellent musical tastes.
An excellent shot too - but then there was also a big RAF target to aim at :)
Pigmy Pony
15-02-2019, 21:23
That should look quite effective over the blue latex gimp suit.
It certainly does, although it was a bit embarrassing when visiting my mum - she always made me take the parka off, as 'I won't feel the benefit' when I go out.
Those gimp suits (or track suits, as they call them in Stoke-on-Trent) are so comfortable and practical too, I'm surprised they fell out of fashion in the eighties :D
Yep that all sounds do-able, but you will have to explain the paper clips - that sounds a bit perverted that does.
If I told you that before you were granted access to the 'inner chamber', I'd have to kill you. I can promise though, that it doesn't tickle.
Marco.
If I told you that before you were granted access to the 'inner chamber',
Marco.
He just wants to go in the mod room I think. With his parka. Which I bet he doesn't really have.
Just his parka? Not sure we could allow that on the grounds of decency. You know how particular we are about things like that. And then there's the nits.
Marco.
It's got Quadrophenia written on the back though...
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 21:51
He just wants to go in the mod room I think. With his parka. Which I bet he doesn't really have.
Well this is the 'bullshitting' thread, so that's a perfectly good excuse.
trust me I'm constantly amazed with the goalposts locationsI do trust you, its my nature, but your point was dartless, or your dart was poin.. Oh please yourself!
Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
Exactly right, Mike, although I may have put it slightly differently. However, such behaviour doesn't *automatically* constitute as shilling!
Only if you're blinkered and have a biased agenda [which incidentally threads like this are great at exposing] would you consider Ollie's behaviour as such, or indeed anyone else here guilty of simply 'bigging up' (no pun intended:D) something that they consider as excellent.
In that respect, there's *no way* on this earth that anyone here will be asked to curb their natural enthusiasm towards a piece of equipment, which has sonically blown them away, simply because some find it annoying, or it irks a few jealous idiots elsewhere, desperate for attention, who suffer from issues of inadequacy.
Marco.
Um, I know you're the boss but isn't that getting personal?
Who with, Gary? Certainly no-one here. I'm simply making a general observation on behaviour I often witness on other forums:)
Marco.
Exactly right, Mike, although I may have put it slightly differently. However, such behaviour doesn't *automatically* constitute as shilling!
Only if you're blinkered and have a biased agenda [which incidentally threads like this are great at exposing] would you consider Ollie's behaviour as such,
:scratch:
As far as I can ascertain you are talking about someone who clearly and explicitly has a business partnership with another AoS Trade member previously mentioned in this thread and as such is bound to 'big up' their products - sorry if I fail to grasp the point your are making here.
It's got Quadrophenia written on the back though...
Ah I see, well in that case his arse (and jacket) would be very welcome.
Marco.
:scratch:
As far as I can ascertain you are talking about someone who clearly and explicitly has a business partnership with another AoS Trade member previously mentioned in this thread and as such is bound to 'big up' their products - sorry if I fail to grasp the point your are making here.
I'm agreeing with your sentiments below (and how to deal with the matter correctly), because as you say, that's simply the nature of enthusiast-led forums:
But this is what happens with most 'niche' forums in my experience and doesn't particularly surprise (or bother) me.
A few voices tend to dominate simply by posting more than others - only remedy is for 'quieter' forum members to post more.... or simply ignore the stuff that bores the pants off you.
Alan and Oliver, if they consider it justified to do so, are entitled to praise each other and/or their respective products if they so wish, just the same as other traders here are, and sometimes do. It's not guaranteed evidence of shilling though, or any other underhand behaviour, unless your biased way of thinking (or agenda/shilling mania) chooses to interpret it that way.
Marco.
AFAIK they are good friends and Alan has been teaching Oli electronics and the art of trouser wearing, but tmk they are not in partnership
AFAIK they are good friends and Alan has been teaching Oli electronics and the art of trouser wearing, but tmk they are not in partnership
Indeed, it always amazes me how some are so keen to jump to such negative conclusions about people, rather than the opposite, which is usually nearer the truth!:doh:
For me, if you think that way, then it says more about YOU, and your own hangups, than the person you're criticising.
Marco.
Johnny nocash
15-02-2019, 22:43
I agree with nearly all posts both for & against. A healthy discussion.
Oh, and I never never mentioned schilling.....but if the cap fits....:ner:
Ah, so that's where you've been hiding!:D
So are you happy now that the thread's served its purpose, if it's closed?
Marco.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 23:01
Hold up a minute!
FFS, have a few hours with the wife, come back and Alan and I are in a business partnership!
Let's get things straight:
1) Alan and I are not a business partnership. If we were, it would be advertised as such.
2) Alan and I have collaborated as a pair one one project. The Bigbottle phonostage PCBs. It's a NOT FOR PROFIT venture for you bunch!!!!! It has been made more obvious than was necessary to ensure there was no confusion or misleading about the origin. It was also made blatantly obvious because I like to give credit where it's due. Same to JPS64 On DIYaudio for his work on the PCB.
3) If and when Alan has done ANY work for me, ie changing wires on my tonearm in the early days right up to today, when I he finished off my phonostage for me, I have ALWAYS paid my dues. Now whether that be Monetary or by a few beers, it's been Alan's choice. I have ALWAYS paid.
4) I have never received ANY incentive from Alan or anyone associated with him to leave any comments on the gear he makes or promote it. I recommend his gear because it's a bargain. It's that simple.
5) Alan is a good friend. He has been dragging me along the route of learning how and why things work. I am trying to learn and build a better knowledge of the technical aspects of things.
6) I find it absolutely repugnant that I am having to sit here and defend my posts or my position.
I've been very generous with my time to members here. I've tried to provide information on as many pieces of kit as I can, I've helped as many people as I can. I've repaired cables for free, highlighted bits of kit to people who've been looking for a particular item. I've given stuff away, taken my gear to people's houses so they can try it in their system, I've never made ANY profit from a member of this forum when ive sold a used item, I arranged an AoS bakoff and generally tried to embody the ethos I believed we had on this forum.
What a waste of fucking time.
Here here. As expressed earlier. Don't let it get to you. That's what many want. [emoji57]
Hold up a minute!
FFS, have a few hours with the wife, come back and Alan and I are in a business partnership!
Yes, it's amazing to think that some of us have LIVES outside of hi-fi forums, and other things to do than just sit on a keyboard, 24/7, and bitch about people we're jealous of:D
There are some right (pitiable) sad bastards out there, some of whom show clear evidence of needing a damn good shag!:eyebrows:
I've been very generous with my time to members here. I've tried to provide information on as many pieces of kit as I can, I've helped as many people as I can. I've repaired cables for free, highlighted bits of kit to people who've been looking for a particular item. I've given stuff away, taken my gear to people's houses so they can try it in their system, I've never made ANY profit from a member of this forum when ive sold a used item, I arranged an AoS bakoff and generally tried to embody the ethos I believed we had on this forum.
What a waste of fucking time.
As they say mate: 'Don't let the bastards get you down'. What you've described is precisely what makes this place special, and which others are jealous/resentful of, and seeking to destroy, so don't let them win.
Just send them an appropriate 'two-fingered salute', thus.... :upyours::upyours:
Plus, some of them out there will be due a much deserved slap, when an opportunity presents itself (sooner than they think), and trust me have had it coming for a very long time.....
:exactly:
Marco.
Bigman80
15-02-2019, 23:20
I'm very disappointed
Jealousy mostly. It's one of the worst traits of mankind
Well mate, such is life. I sympathise, but sadly the world is full of jealous and resentful inadequates/keyboard warriors. You either let them drag you down to their pathetic level, or you rise above it and concentrate instead on what really matters: your own success and continued education in a subject that you're passionate about.
That's the thing about losers: they hate the success or happiness of others, and so revel in trying to make them feel as miserable as they do... You've got the support here of many decent members, and also from all of the mods and admin, so that's what counts. Don't waste it, so chin up, and move on:cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
15-02-2019, 23:30
I'm very disappointed
It is the 'bullshitting' thread mate and much of it may well have been exactly that. Ignore it and move on. I doubt the thread has much life left anyway.
As I understand it one manufacturer who was very genrous with his time and knowledge (Paul of RFC) has stopped posting here due to some of the attitudes he encountered, lets not lose any more eh?
The place would be far poorer if that happened.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Ah I see that Grant's beat me to it!
Marco.
As I understand it one manufacturer who was very genrous with his time and knowledge (Paul of RFC) has stopped posting here due to some of the attitudes he encountered, lets not lose any more eh?
The place would be far poorer if that happened.
Indeed, Andy, but that was down to a variety of factors, some of which you won't be aware of.
Marco.
Indeed, Andy, but that was down to a variety of factors, some of which you won't be aware of.
Marco.okay dokey,
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
It is the 'bullshitting' thread mate and much of it may well have been exactly that. Ignore it and move on. I doubt the thread has much life left anyway.
Yup, I think that 18 pages of discussion on this matter has been more than generous! Time to move on now, folks.
Marco.
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