A few hours at Oliver's

[Jimbo]

Although I live 20 minutes from Oliver I still find it difficult to find time to meet up but as so much had changed in Oliver's system I was curious to hear what changes he has made to his system and on a blustery Friday afternoon I managed to pay another visit. Unfortunately we only listened to 50% of Oli's system as he is still painfully building his phono stage and I am not just referring to delayed parts!:) Frustratingly this was only a toroid away from completion!

As always Oliver is a great host, enthusiastic and great company and has, as I have mentioned before, a great ear for audio and sound in general. If I was to trust someone to recommend or put a system together for me it would be this man.

So the 50% that we could listen too was Oliver's newly acquired digital set up which suited me fine because I knew if Oliver was happy with it and it remained in his house for more than a few weeks it must be good. Although we are both massive vinyl fans we keep an interest in digital equipment and I would say we have both dabbled in various digital orientated systems over the years. I believe a fair bit of kit has come and gone very quickly in Oliver's house but at last he has an system which I think maybe a keeper?:) This is based around the Raspberry Pi which has been configured with an Allo BOSS DAC with a laptop used as a server.

The Pi is juiced by a nice linear PSU and pumped into his own build preamp and finally into a monster Krell KSA 100 MK2. I know a few folk have heard this amp at Oliver's but what took me by surprise was the size and the heat, it makes a very good radiator! This amp is a beast, a steel hand in a velvet glove. I quickly grasped its ability as a power amp, very muscular and just cruising most of the time like a V8 engine. You only have to blip the throttle and its control, weight and authority are felt as a physical presence in the room. It has a warmth to the sound but handles fine detail in the top end superbly whilst absolutely controlling and defining the bottom end. Bass is not just delivered, it is articulated in a way few amps I have heard can do below £10,000. Ok Oli's speakers don't need that much power but they never sounded too pushed or overawed, they just sounded controlled. Wonderful.

Back to the Pi. I have heard a few configurations of the Pi but this one was the best. The digital picture it paints is sophisticated and punches way above its price. It does not do anything badly and avoids any of the pitfalls of digital audio I have heard in the past. We listened to some great 'demonstration' tunes and it really was enjoyable. Volumio works very well and there were no glitches, it never fell over. On well ripped material,we only listed to files, it sounded very good indeed and was revealing enough to quickly tell you when you had a poor rip lower down the bit rate scale!

I was impressed and would only say that compared to the very best digital audio I have heard it sounded a little bit constricted and slightly muddled or thick on some material. The soundstage was not the biggest and it may have lacked a bit of air and ambience in some recordings. But I was impressed and for the money it is a steal. When digital is this cheap there is no argument not too have one. I am sure this would embarrass a lot of more expensive DAC/ renderers!

As Oliver is a cable man I took round a Chord Epic twin speaker cable. Speaker cables are probably not as sexy as ICs so I though it would be interesting for Oli to hear this cable. I have had it for a few years and it is simply far and away the best speaker cable I have heard. It does everything right and orders everything in a controlled way that allows you to hear the full potential of the material you pump into your speakers. Nothing is exaggerated or emphasised, it is a very well balanced cable. Oli may be able to mention what his thoughts were?

This time round the biggest impression I took away from Oliver's was the Krell. It is a fabulous power amp and one of the best I have heard. I can't wait to get back round when Oli has finished his latest reiteration of his phono stage and listen to his vinyl rig. I can only imagine it will be spectacular.

Thanks for a great afternoon, it was certainly warm and cosy next to that amp.:lol:

[Bigman80]

Hi Jim,

Yes, the busy lives do tend to make the distance further but hey, you made it lol.

Thoroughly enjoyable afternoon and yes, the Krell does make the radiator redundant when there's more than one person in the room. It's definitely a compromise i am happy to live with as the sound quality is right up there with the best pieces i've heard. To better it outright, i think your assessment of a spend of £10k or more is probably spot on in the commercial realm but as we know, the DIY community usually push this SPPV to better returns.

The tone of the Krell is ever so slightly warmer than neutral BUT i think i know why and as soon as i am physically able, i'll be taking steps to neutralise it! I'll also be putting some other speakers into the mix next week so they will reveal how coloured the amp is or if its the Pioneer Speakers that are to blame!

One of the other factors here is the speaker cable. I have known this for some time but at £2pm, its too good to just throw out. They are slightly "rounded" in their presentation and contribute to the "warm" feel. However, just how much was brought to my attention like a slap in the face when we put the Chord Epic Twin in, in place of the Fisual S-Flex.

Clean lines with excellent delineation replaced what now sounded like Bleeding edges from the Fisual. I asked instantly if they were silver plated (they are) but Jim wasn't sure. I heard that mix of metal immediately but it worked rather better than other cables that use this combination. Vocals felt free and clear and the soundstage was definitely bigger and better. Nils Lofgrens guitar was resonant and the fret buzz from his frantic picking stood out. The cables really pulled out the detail with a really sweet balance to the sound. I was impressed and that is rare for me. I'd happily use these.........if i didn't have a cable of my own in mind ;)

Speaker cables are something i am currently investigating and this has given me the impetus to get it higher up the priority list.

The Pi really ha been a revelation here. I played Gypsy Woman - Rory Gallagher and my god, it sounded absolutely stunning. Harmonica and guitar just hit a 3D level i haven't had from anything digital here. And a lot more expensive stuff has passed through and failed. I decided a while back that the reason i love vinyl is that every now and again, it convinces my brain that what i am hearing is "The real thing". Digital hasnt done that with any regularity. I then thought "why am i comparing digital to vinyl?"

The benchmark should be the same. If a digital piece can trick me into forgetting i am listening to a recording, then that should suffice. The Pi does this quite often so therefore it stays. For £150 it will relegate CD permanently IMO.

The phonostage will be up and running by the end of the week thanks to an able bodied friend so the next meeting (25/03/19) should be 100% vinyl. Awesome :D

A really good day was had and held in the right spirit. What it's all about.

If you REALLY want more pics, let me know but C'mon, theres loads here already!!!!

[Jimbo]

Your gear must be the most photographed on the site and your listening room maybe the most frequented!:)

[Bigman80]

Your gear must be the most photographed on the site and your listening room maybe the most frequented!:)Lol, that's very true mate.

Another couple of welcome guests next week!

It's good to participate I. The HiFi community. I got to hear some cables I'd never have tried. It's the best way to hear stuff.

[Macca]

What speakers are you getting in then Ollie?

[Bigman80]

What speakers are you getting in then Ollie?I'm loaning some Missions mate. They are floor standers. Same as RobbieGong had.

[Macca]

Right. 752? Should be interesting.

[Bigman80]

Right. 752? Should be interesting.

I can't remember the model number but I want to see what effect a narrow speaker will have in my listening room. There is some suggestion I can improve the size of the soundstage with slimmer speakers rather than wide ones like the pioneers.

You've seen the limited space I have so I'm willing to have a look. Also gives s little insight into what the JMLabs might do if you ever get your Tannoys!

[Macca]

I can't remember the model number but I want to see what effect a narrow speaker will have in my listening room. There is some suggestion I can improve the size of the soundstage with slimmer speakers rather than wide ones like the pioneers.

You've seen the limited space I have so I'm willing to have a look. Also gives s little insight into what the JMLabs might do if you ever get your Tannoys!

The Tannoys won't be long now.


You need to get that garage sorted. Plenty of space, no early reflections. You could get a pearling listening room in there, probably cost you a monkey tops with some ducking and diving. You're going to need it if I want the JM Labs back and you're stuck with the Ardens ;)

[Bigman80]

The Tannoys won't be long now.


You need to get that garage sorted. Plenty of space, no early reflections. You could get a pearling listening room in there, probably cost you a monkey tops with some ducking and diving. You're going to need it if I want the JM Labs back and you're stuck with the Ardens ;)[emoji23][emoji23]

Yep. I know. Not sure the timing is right to do the garage but it is in the long term plan.

[Firebottle]

Excellent stuff chaps!

[Jimbo]

Maybe your Pioneer speakers could "rest " at mine for a while when you have your new speakers.:)?

[Bigman80]

Maybe your Pioneer speakers could "rest " at mine for a while when you have your new speakers.:)?

I am ok with that mate. I am happy to loan you my DIY "worst looking stands ever!" too

[walpurgis]

What speakers are you trying Oliver?

[Bigman80]

What speakers are you trying Oliver?

Mission 752. I want to see what effect a narrow speaker will have in my listening room. There is some suggestion I can improve the size of the soundstage with slimmer speakers rather than wide ones like the Pioneers. It's not in a mind of replacement, just experimentation. Macca's JMLabs will be here eventually too.

[CageyH]

It must be a pretty small room if the physical width of the speakers is going to make a difference.

[walpurgis]

The Missions will be a big change tonally.

[Bigman80]

It must be a pretty small room if the physical width of the speakers is going to make a difference.

Yep, with the furniture next to the speakers, its around 2m max. I dont "know" if it will make any difference which is why i'll try it.

[Bigman80]

The Missions will be a big change tonally.

I know mate. It's a little scary!

[Jimbo]

Not heard the 752s but used to think the Mission 770s were superb back in the late 70s!

[YNWaN]

As above, the Mission speakers will be very different but likely the least of the reasons will be the difference in width.

[Bigman80]

As above, the Mission speakers will be very different but likely the least of the reasons will be the difference in width.Just want to hear a more modern speaker in the system and see if I can hear any difference in soundstage. I total understand that the presentation will be different but speakers and speaker cables are the last bits I need to fettled. I may only require cables but I like to experiment.

[Hammer]

I had a pair of 752s in the nineties,liked them a lot I regularly kick myself for selling them. By the way how is your recovery going Ollie?

[AJSki2fly]

Mission 752. I want to see what effect a narrow speaker will have in my listening room. There is some suggestion I can improve the size of the soundstage with slimmer speakers rather than wide ones like the Pioneers. It's not in a mind of replacement, just experimentation. Macca's JMLabs will be here eventually too.

Hi Oliver,

I noticed you are trying out various speakers, not sure how much you want to spend. Anyway I used to have the Wilson Benesch ARC's which I used with 300B's amps and they sounded extremely good, I was going to keep them but moved them to pay towards another upgrade which I am waiting to arrive. They are at http://www.lotushifi.co.uk/preloved/ at a very good price IMO. Richard at Lotus is very helpful so you may be able to get a loan to try them out, he is making hardly anything on what he gave me for them. These were the last pair made by WB and were replaced by the Vertex, the only difference to the ARC's being an in house produced tweeter and they increased the RRP to £7K, the ARC's last RRP was at £3.8K. I can vouch for these and they are mint.

The ARCs are very neutral and accurate, they give a great sound stage, do not be mislead by the fact that they are on their own stands, they produce an immense sound and are very accurate, and go surprisingly low, I measured them down to 30hz. They used to fill my lounge which is 22' by 13', but they also performed well in our study/spare room which is only 10' by 9'. As the two ports are downward facing they are not too fussy on placement, so they should work well in your room.

Anyway its just a thought. good luck.

Adrian

[Bigman80]

Thanks for tip Adrian. I'm not 100% sold on the idea that there's much wrong with the pioneers. Whilst they are vintage (1971) and are not what most people would eye up as a Hi end speaker, I have heard very little that would make me upgrade. I've heard even less for under £1.5k.

When Macca visited, I hadn't quite isolated them as well as I could have. I've done a few tweaks and with the Chord epics, they calmed right down into a very acceptable balance.

Should my experiment with the Mission not yield any results I'd like to make permanent, I'll wait until I try Macca's JMLabs. If they do the trick, I'll probably be done.

[Jimbo]

Thanks for tip Adrian. I'm not 100% sold on the idea that there's much wrong with the pioneers. Whilst they are vintage (1971) and are not what most people would eye up as a Hi end speaker, I have heard very little that would make me upgrade. I've heard even less for under £1.5k.

When Macca visited, I hadn't quite isolated them as well as I could have. I've done a few tweaks and with the Chord epics, they calmed right down into a very acceptable balance.

Should my experiment with the Mission not yield any results I'd like to make permanent, I'll wait until I try Macca's JMLabs. If they do the trick, I'll probably be done.

The elephant in the room is the room. Nothing wrong with the Pioneers Oli they sounded superb especially with the better speaker cable. You just need a bigger room so the whole system can breathe, but you know that anyway.:lol:
No harm in trying smaller speakers though to see if they work better with the room.

[JohnG]

Hi Ollie
Maybe for a certain few, embracing the Digital Age is a age related thing, with the ears losing a little of their sensitivity.
I was anti the stuff for many years in HiFi, but couldn't get enough of the technology in Photography, in the world of Photography nearly everybody is a Happy Snapper.
As for today in HiFi, I am very close to pulling the trigger on a Digital System, expanding from the CD that has been in use for the past 2 years, to a recently added DAC with a CD. If all goes to plan,
A Laptop > NUC > DAC will be my set up running a Software on the NUC.
My only small concern with such a system, is how convenient it will be and that it may become a regular back ground music supply system, leading into lost time at enjoying intentional in front of the speakers listening sessions.
The 752's smaller siblings are speakers I have recommended to individuals in the Past asking about HiFi and AV Speakers.
They are a speaker produced with the 90's market in mind, so it will be interesting to see how you take to them.
I was given a Pair to Loan when I unwrapped the system from storage in early 2017, I preferred my Tannoys from the same era.
I had the 6 Sided Box Tannoy's on my WAD K5881, these still are memorable, and were replaced by the ESL 57's.
I recall their imageing was appealing and bettered a few more expensive speakers that were brought to my home for Burning the Midnight Oil sessions.
The skys the limit for trialing 90's speakers, there are quite a few out their.
AE Acoustics, I recall were very good with the 5881's, but were designed to be with a amp like a Krell. A Sub with these might be awsome.

[Bigman80]

The elephant in the room is the room. Nothing wrong with the Pioneers Oli they sounded superb especially with the better speaker cable. You just need a bigger room so the whole system can breathe, but you know that anyway.[emoji38]
No harm in trying smaller speakers though to see if they work better with the room.They are a real favourite of mine. There aren't many speakers I've heard that are as capable at delivering delicate treble as they are at moving the air on drum strikes and bass notes. They are a super speaker. Incredibly under rated probably due to needing a properly proportioned listening space.

[Bigman80]

Hi Ollie
Maybe for a certain few, embracing the Digital Age is a age related thing, with the ears losing a little of their sensitivity.
I was anti the stuff for many years in HiFi, but couldn't get enough of the technology in Photography, in the world of Photography nearly everybody is a Happy Snapper.
As for today in HiFi, I am very close to pulling the trigger on a Digital System, expanding from the CD that has been in use for the past 2 years, to a recently added DAC with a CD. If all goes to plan,
A Laptop > NUC > DAC will be my set up running a Software on the NUC.
My only small concern with such a system, is how convenient it will be and that it may become a regular back ground music supply system, leading into lost time at enjoying intentional in front of the speakers listening sessions.
The 752's smaller siblings are speakers I have recommended to individuals in the Past asking about HiFi and AV Speakers.
They are a speaker produced with the 90's market in mind, so it will be interesting to see how you take to them.
I was given a Pair to Loan when I unwrapped the system from storage in early 2017, I preferred my Tannoys from the same era.
I had the 6 Sided Box Tannoy's on my WAD K5881, these still are memorable, and were replaced by the ESL 57's.
I recall their imageing was appealing and bettered a few more expensive speakers that were brought to my home for Burning the Midnight Oil sessions.
The skys the limit for trialing 90's speakers, there are quite a few out their.
AE Acoustics, I recall were very good with the 5881's, but were designed to be with a amp like a Krell. A Sub with these might be awsome.Hey John,

Digital is a tough market IMO. A lot of the stuff I've heard just didn't get it right. Yes, all the detail is there but there was always a glare or brittle sound. Soundstage was always condensed and worst of all it just sounded crap.

Admittedly, I haven't dabbled in the upper echelon of digital but why would you chase a medium that did nothing for you!

The Pi changed this. How they have got it so much nearer to a sound I can accept than some well known companies, i don't know. The price is just ridiculous. Would the pi prove better than modest vinyl systems? Absolutely. If I hadn't already gone a few leagues above the pi with my vinyl setup, I can tell you honestly, I wouldn't have done it now.

An isolation board and probably a more up to date DAC hat will offer better results, so that's where I'll head in the future.

The speaker thing isn't really too much of an issue for me. I am happy, just curious. I've had a fair amount of speakers here and the Pioneers have lasted for good reason. If I can improve the bass control a little more, it'll be a done deal. Speaker cable will help with this. I have a few candidates to try, all DIY but the big spend will come when I finally make my proper lengthed SPOTFIRE speaker cables.

I know where I'm headed, but no harm auditioning a few bits along the way.

[JohnG]

Just to confirm on the speaker cable subject, I imported a pair of
Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Speaker Cable.
No matter how much fair lore I gave the other cables I had around me, the Mapleshades were not being moved, they let the listener see into the soundstage, in a way I had never experienced before.

[YNWaN]

Just want to hear a more modern speaker in the system and see if I can hear any difference in soundstage. I total understand that the presentation will be different but speakers and speaker cables are the last bits I need to fettled. I may only require cables but I like to experiment.

Fair enough, as long as you bear in mind that any differences you hear to the soundstage are likely the result of factors other than the cabinet width.

[Jimbo]

Hey John,

Digital is a tough market IMO. A lot of the stuff I've heard just didn't get it right. Yes, all the detail is there but there was always a glare or brittle sound. Soundstage was always condensed and worst of all it just sounded crap.

Admittedly, I haven't dabbled in the upper echelon of digital but why would you chase a medium that did nothing for you!

The Pi changed this. How they have got it so much nearer to a sound I can accept than some well known companies, i don't know. The price is just ridiculous. Would the pi prove better than modest vinyl systems? Absolutely. If I hadn't already gone a few leagues above the pi with my vinyl setup, I can tell you honestly, I wouldn't have done it now.

An isolation board and probably a more up to date DAC hat will offer better results, so that's where I'll head in the future.

The speaker thing isn't really too much of an issue for me. I am happy, just curious. I've had a fair amount of speakers here and the Pioneers have lasted for good reason. If I can improve the bass control a little more, it'll be a done deal. Speaker cable will help with this. I have a few candidates to try, all DIY but the big spend will come when I finally make my proper lengthed SPOTFIRE speaker cables.

I know where I'm headed, but no harm auditioning a few bits along the way.

To be honest most of the DACs out there are based around sabre or burr brown chips and your just paying for a fancy box or Name! The Pi strips away all the bullshit literally and your left with what matters implemented well and those guys at Allo are obsessed with getting the best sound possible out of the Pi with their gear. Ok the top manufacturers are maybe giving you a better PSU but as you have found there are some cheap as cheats linear supplies out there that do the trick!

[Bigman80]

Fair enough, as long as you bear in mind that any differences you hear to the soundstage are likely the result of factors other than the cabinet width.I am matey. It's just an excercise in experimentation. It's not costing me anything so why not!

[Bigman80]

To be honest most of the DACs out there are based around sabre or burr brown chips and your just paying for a fancy box or Name! The Pi strips away all the bullshit literally and your left with what matters implemented well and those guys at Allo are obsessed with getting the best sound possible out of the Pi with their gear. Ok the top manufacturers are maybe giving you a better PSU but as you have found there are some cheap as cheats linear supplies out there that do the trick!Yep, very true. I have been listening a lot today and still not fatigued. Just can't argue with that!

[Bigman80]

Just to confirm on the speaker cable subject, I imported a pair of
Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Speaker Cable.
No matter how much fair lore I gave the other cables I had around me, the Mapleshades were not being moved, they let the listener see into the soundstage, in a way I had never experienced before.Interestingly, I was looking at these recently. I wasn't convinced due to the thin gauge and silver plating. Maybe I need an audition