View Full Version : Croft 25 RS cartridge question
My analogue system is currently as follows: LP12 with Roksan Nima arm and Linn Adikt MM cartridge into a Croft 25 RS pre-amplifier.
I'm thinking of changing the cartridge to a moving coil, possibly a Benz Micro Ace, and I'm wondering what the best way of connecting it to the Croft would be?
As far as I can see, one option would be to go for the high output version, and to connect it directly. I don't know how well this would work?
Alternatively, I could go for the low output version and use a step-up transformer or head amp. I don't know which would be best, but have been looking at the Graham Slee Elevator or Rothwell Headspace head amps as possible options.
Any advice would be very welcome.
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 17:13
My analogue system is currently as follows: LP12 with Roksan Nima arm and Linn Adikt MM cartridge into a Croft 25 RS pre-amplifier.
I'm thinking of changing the cartridge to a moving coil, possibly a Benz Micro Ace, and I'm wondering what the best way of connecting it to the Croft would be?
As far as I can see, one option would be to go for the high output version, and to connect it directly. I don't know how well this would work?
Alternatively, I could go for the low output version and use a step-up transformer or head amp. I don't know which would be best, but have been looking at the Graham Slee Elevator or Rothwell Headspace head amps as possible options.
Any advice would be very welcome.I wouldn't go down the MC rabbit hole with that setup. I'd be looking at getting some life into it via A 2M black.
Last thing you need in there is a SUT or Headamp to confuse things. Believe me when I say, unless you are willing to spend £750+ in a SUT, the results will never be as good as a Headamp like the Denon HA-500.
If you insist on going MC + SUT, THE best budget SUT is the 1334 (?) Cinemag Bob's device.
I have done all of this personally and have used High end SUTS like Hashimotos, high end Ortofons plus many others.
Imo, Headamp are easier to find a better match with.
I now use a MC only phonostage with Jfets doing the gain setting. I've never looked back.
Good luck!
another vote for the denon ha-500,my modded one was very good and id still be using it if i didn't own a paradise phono stage.
fiddlemaker
21-01-2019, 17:57
I've used a high output Micro Ace with a Croft pre-amp (Micro A upgraded to 25R spec at the time, since upgraded to 25RS spec), and it worked very nicely, just a bit quieter than the line stage.
I changed the Benz to a Decca after a while. Hugely better in every way and strongly recommended.
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 18:13
I've used a high output Micro Ace with a Croft pre-amp (Micro A upgraded to 25R spec at the time, since upgraded to 25RS spec), and it worked very nicely, just a bit quieter than the line stage.
I changed the Benz to a Decca after a while. Hugely better in every way and strongly recommended.A Decca?! Had three here and they will never be on any TT of mine again.
Completely outperformed by numerous cartridges. The 2M black for one.
Glad it works for you though.
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 18:22
Don't take my word for it, a guy here called Jimbo has heard practically everything possible that Glenn has made.
He has Croft gear, I've heard his rig, he uses a 2M black and it's a perfect match.
A Decca?! Had three here and they will never be on any TT of mine again.
Completely outperformed by numerous cartridges. The 2M black for one.
Glad it works for you though.
there are lots of people who love decca cartridges,i dipped my toe in the water with a C4E,it destroyed my 2m black,what put me off was it really wasn't an every day cartridge,that and being tonearm fussy.
like you,been there and done it,never again :)
walpurgis
21-01-2019, 18:49
A Decca?! Had three here and they will never be on any TT of mine again.
Completely outperformed by numerous cartridges. The 2M black for one.
Glad it works for you though.
Funny things Deccas. They can sound crap partnered with some equipment. Some people just don't like them anyway. A few of them just don't deliver, sounding a bit off no matter what. But in the right system a good one can sound outstanding.
Good advice Oli! Yes tried many many combinations with a Croft 25R including a Decca and various MC cartridges with head amps and SUTs. No doubt you could find the right combination that would work but it could take you an awful long time and lots of money.
Best bet would be try a 2M black, it will give you the detail, soundstage, dynamics and air that any MC cartridge will give you up to £1000. The 2M black has brilliant synergy with the Croft 25r. Just don't use a pair of bright sounding speakers as it maybe too much. Other than that you will hear a live dynamic performance that can be thrilling with the right recording. Make sure you use some nice NOS valves In the phono stage such as Tesla or better still Telefunkens and you will get superb tonal quality and incredible detail.
If
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 18:52
there are lots of people who love decca cartridges,i dipped my toe in the water with a C4E,it destroyed my 2m black,what put me off was it really wasn't an every day cartridge,that and being tonearm fussy.
like you,been there and done it,never again :)I'll never argue with anyone who's tried something in their system mate. We both hit the Deccas about the same time but if there was a choice between a Decca and a 2m black, I'd pick the black. That's only my opinion though and you qualified yours by having both.
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 18:53
Funny things Deccas. They can sound crap partnered with some equipment. Some people just don't like them anyway. A few of them just don't deliver, sounding a bit off no matter what. But in the right system a good one can sound outstanding.Too much of a mythical beast for me mate. I tried a Blue, Gold and loaned a Super Gold. I'd not buy another.
Thanks. I will certainly consider the 2M Black or Decca (though I don't know how it would be with the Nima?). I was also thinking of a Nagaoka MP-500 or Music Maker Mk III.
I don't mind investing in a decent headamp or SUT, as I'm hoping to upgrade or replace the turntable in the future, so keen to get the basics right. Is the Denon headamp much better than the new ones I mentioned (Headspace or Elevator)?
I've used a high output Micro Ace with a Croft pre-amp (Micro A upgraded to 25R spec at the time, since upgraded to 25RS spec), and it worked very nicely, just a bit quieter than the line stage.
Thanks, that's good to know - I was worried that a HOMC might not suit the Croft. It could open other possibilities too, e.g. the other Benz cartridges or the Dynavector 10X5 or 20X2H. Again, that would save having to think about an SUT/headamp.
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 18:58
Thanks. I will certainly consider the 2M Black or Decca (though I don't know how it would be with the Nima?). I was also thinking of a Nagaoka MP-500 or Music Maker Mk III.
I don't mind investing in a decent headamp or SUT, as I'm hoping to upgrade or replace the turntable in the future, so keen to get the basics right. Is the Denon headamp much better than the new ones I mentioned (Headspace or Elevator)?
Thanks, that's good to know - I was worried that a HOMC might not suit the Croft. It could open other possibilities too, e.g. the other Benz cartridges or the Dynavector 10X5 or 20X2H. Again, that would save having to think about an SUT/headamp.You have to be careful with croft gear imo, it can get very "Rich" sounding, very quickly.
Dynavectors, Nagaokas will make the sound very soft, syrupy and probably as dynamic as dishwater.
Your TT is a lush sounding unit too so for me, I'd be concerned about all that lushness.
. ultimately, it's your system and its up to you what sound to go for.
I'll never argue with anyone who's tried something in their system mate. We both hit the Deccas about the same time but if there was a choice between a Decca and a 2m black, I'd pick the black. That's only my opinion though and you qualified yours by having both.
cool,i think id have the 2m too with hindsight
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 19:01
cool,i think id have the 2m too with hindsightVery wise. I knew we'd Agee lol [emoji6]
fiddlemaker
21-01-2019, 19:02
A Decca?! Had three here and they will never be on any TT of mine again.
Completely outperformed by numerous cartridges. The 2M black for one.
Glad it works for you though.
It does. It makes me blissfully happy. :eyebrows:
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 19:05
It does. It makes me blissfully happy. :eyebrows:That's what it's all about mate, finding what works.
I couldn't get in with them at all.
fiddlemaker
21-01-2019, 19:18
That's what it's all about mate, finding what works.
I couldn't get in with them at all.
My Decca experience was a bit of a surprise, really. I'd heard all the caveats over many years and only decided to dip my toe in the water when a bargain Blue came up on Ebay a few years ago.. I have to say, I've never experienced a single one of the downsides i was expecting. People talk about a "seat of the pants" type experience, tracking problems, etc but to me the Decca just sounds glorious on all musical genres, and never misbehaves at all.
I'm sure a 2M black will be a good 2nd best, though.:ner:
Good advice Oli! Yes tried many many combinations with a Croft 25R including a Decca and various MC cartridges with head amps and SUTs. No doubt you could find the right combination that would work but it could take you an awful long time and lots of money.
Best bet would be try a 2M black, it will give you the detail, soundstage, dynamics and air that any MC cartridge will give you up to £1000. The 2M black has brilliant synergy with the Croft 25r. Just don't use a pair of bright sounding speakers as it maybe too much. Other than that you will hear a live dynamic performance that can be thrilling with the right recording. Make sure you use some nice NOS valves In the phono stage such as Tesla or better still Telefunkens and you will get superb tonal quality and incredible detail.
If
Thanks. I'm using Harbeth speakers. Currently have Mullards in the phono stage and a Sylvania 12BH7, along with an RCA black plate triple mica 5751 in the Croft 7R. I will try and find some Teslas or Telefunkens one day.
fiddlemaker
21-01-2019, 19:25
Thanks. I'm using Harbeth speakers. Currently have Mullards in the phono stage and a Sylvania 12BH7, along with an RCA black plate triple mica 5751 in the Croft 7R. I will try and find some Teslas or Telefunkens one day.
Tesla E83CC in the phono stage is absolutely the way to go (Thanks, Jimbo :))
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 19:26
My Decca experience was a bit of a surprise, really. I'd heard all the caveats over many years and only decided to dip my toe in the water when a bargain Blue came up on Ebay a few years ago.. I have to say, I've never experienced a single one of the downsides i was expecting. People talk about a "seat of the pants" type experience, tracking problems, etc but to me the Decca just sounds glorious on all musical genres, and never misbehaves at all.
I'm sure a 2M black will be a good 2nd best, though.:ner:[emoji23]
The blue was the best of the three I tried. I think there are a few with alnico magnets or something similar and that gave them the edge.
hifi_dave
21-01-2019, 19:38
Thanks, that's good to know - I was worried that a HOMC might not suit the Croft. It could open other possibilities too, e.g. the other Benz cartridges or the Dynavector 10X5 or 20X2H. Again, that would save having to think about an SUT/headamp.
Several of my customers are using high output Hana cartridges with their Croft amps. To my ears they are more full bodied and sweeter than the 2M range and they work well with Croft.
Tesla E83CC in the phono stage is absolutely the way to go (Thanks, Jimbo :))
Your welcome.
Thanks. I'm using Harbeth speakers. Currently have Mullards in the phono stage and a Sylvania 12BH7, along with an RCA black plate triple mica 5751 in the Croft 7R. I will try and find some Teslas or Telefunkens one day.
Harbeths are a great speaker with the Croft and a 2M would suit this combination. I would leave the Mullards I the phono stage and try this with a 2M first then if you need more detail and clarity Try some NOS Teslas.
Several of my customers are using high output Hana cartridges with their Croft amps. To my ears they are more full bodied and sweeter than the 2M range and they work well with Croft.
I can imagine the Hana works well and maybe a little more laid back than a 2M and a little more full bodied. This all boils down to what sound you are looking for.
You certainly need to hear a 2M Black before buying one. I had one, and sold it.
It was not to my taste.
Recommending a cartridge is a difficult thing to do. Everybody has a different system, and different tastes. It is important to try to hear as many as you can before buying one.
montesquieu
21-01-2019, 20:48
If you go MC, then Lyras go pretty well on the Nima - I'm a fan of the older Argo i or Dorian (though I had several others), but the newer ones work well too. I ran one on a Nima on my old LP12.
Can be a bit thin on some systems but will complement the lushness of the Croft pre.
I ran them with both a Slee Elevator and a variety of SUTs. Prefer SUTs myself. Lyras are pretty mainstream so lots of SUT options.
Bigman80
21-01-2019, 21:19
If you go MC, then Lyras go pretty well on the Nima - I'm a fan of the older Argo i or Dorian (though I had several others), but the newer ones work well too. I ran one on a Nima on my old LP12.
Can be a bit thin on some systems but will complement the lushness of the Croft pre.
I ran them with both a Slee Elevator and a variety of SUTs. Prefer SUTs myself. Lyras are pretty mainstream so lots of SUT options.Good shout this.
Not sure how it would sound with equipment mentioned above but somebody mentioned the audio technica VM range the other day . 750SH or 760SLC (cant remember which one off the top of my head ?) , and he thought they were better than a black????
He said the imaging, soundstage, instrument texture, and dynamics were more like a moving coil ? Food for thought .
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Thanks all. Plenty of options to think about - I will try and listen to different cartridges to see what would work best.
hifi_dave
22-01-2019, 10:51
Not sure how it would sound with equipment mentioned above but somebody mentioned the audio technica VM range the other day . 750SH or 760SLC (cant remember which one off the top of my head ?) , and he thought they were better than a black????
He said the imaging, soundstage, instrument texture, and dynamics were more like a moving coil ? Food for thought .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'd take an Audio Technica VM95 over a 2M any day. I find them more full bodied than the lean presentation of the 2M and the value for money is far better - you can have a Shibata tipped VM95SH for £179.
I'd take an Audio Technica VM95 over a 2M any day. I find them more full bodied than the lean presentation of the 2M and the value for money is far better - you can have a Shibata tipped VM95SH for £179.
If its that much better than the 2M Black Dave, I really ought to get one and try.:rolleyes:
hifi_dave
22-01-2019, 14:04
Not sure you would find it 'better' but is is certainly not inferior and a lot less money. I prefer it but it's down to taste.
I'd take an Audio Technica VM95 over a 2M any day. I find them more full bodied than the lean presentation of the 2M and the value for money is far better - you can have a Shibata tipped VM95SH for £179.
Just found the thread i was quoting and it turns out it was the 750SH he was referring to , which is only £399 so a bit of a bargain if it does indeed beat a black???? im guessing the 760 line contact would be much better still at £600 ? Again it could be down to tastes here but a number of MM carts were used for testing and the 750 came out on top, black 2nd apparently.
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hifi_dave
23-01-2019, 12:28
Yes, the VM740, 750 and 760 range is better again than the VM95 series I was talking about - more sophisticated generator, cantilevers and body. Truly excellent by any standards and good value.
Audio Technica make their own products, so have no need to buy in parts, as some others do. This is one reason the prices are so reasonable. Similarly with Hana - all made in house.
I preferred my AT150mlx to my 2M Black. So it is well worth trying one of the newer ones.
fiddlemaker
28-01-2019, 18:37
[emoji23]
The blue was the best of the three I tried. I think there are a few with alnico magnets or something similar and that gave them the edge.
Mine has the "parmeko coils" which is apparently a good thing. I also found a Decapod to play a big part in making the cartridge more generally well-behaved (although some aficionados reckon that this takes away some of the magic). Having become smitten with the sound I spent a long time investigating various arm options, ending up with a 12 inch NA Ace Space. This suits the Decca very well, although adding about 3 g mass at the head shell (the most I can add with the standard counterweight) brings further very worthwhile improvements. So I suppose I've put a fair amount of effort into building my record player around the Decca. But honestly, it sounds sublime.
By the way, when I had my preamp upgraded to 25 RS spec, Glenn put in the phono stage from the RIAA RS. This truly is a thing of beauty!
Bigman80
28-01-2019, 18:47
Parmeko! That's the stuff.
Whatever works mate. I'd like a listen to the 25RS phonostage. So, did you get the separate psu then? Does it power the Pre too?
fiddlemaker
28-01-2019, 19:23
Parmeko! That's the stuff.
Whatever works mate. I'd like a listen to the 25RS phonostage. So, did you get the separate psu then? Does it power the Pre too?
Hi, yes, it has the separate big transformer box, the same as the standard 25RS. But instead of the standard 25RS phono stage it has the one from the RIAA RS. So I have the same signal circuit as the standalone RIAA RS phono, but only one PSU, that powers both the phono and line stages.
Bigman80
28-01-2019, 19:27
Hi, yes, it has the separate big transformer box, the same as the standard 25RS. But instead of the standard 25RS phono stage it has the one from the RIAA RS. So I have the same signal circuit as the standalone RIAA RS phono, but only one PSU, that powers both the phono and line stages.Superb. I like the croft stuff.
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