Question about my new Jordan JX92S speakers

[Lawrence001]

I bought these today and they sound great, much less compromised then I expected (as in better overall than many 2 ways I've owned in the past). The previous owner told me that on Jon Espley's advice (the maker) he had added a Zobel network in parallel to the driver. I found the treble a little rolled off so decided to remove it and despite what I read online, it improved the treble.

However while in there I spotted an inductor and 2 paralleled resistors in series with the driver. My question is, what's that all about? I thought the point of Jordan speakers, and all full rangers, was to run them without a crossover. Could there be a negative effect if I remove them?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190118/a86bb74eb3aeeea65f5b429218836687.jpg

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[Jazid]

Suck it and see! They are all about experimentation and what works for you.

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[Macca]

All drive units even full range ones will move into break-up at some point, you can see from the graph below that the Eikona driver has a significant peak in the response at about 8Khz so my guess is the inductor and resistors are there to tame it. But you might prefer the sound with them removed, will depend on a few external factors like how well damped the room is, your hearing, your personal tastes, and the sort of music you play.

https://i.imgur.com/g4qRRto.jpg

[walpurgis]

Most 'full range' drivers get a bit untidy towards the top end. The Philips 9710M has a pretty unruly response above about 7kHz, but actually sounds really enjoyable.

[ianlenco]

The standard advice with Jordan drivers, the JX92 and the newer Eikonas, is to toe the cabinets in so they cross in front of the listener. That tames the slightly harsh treble although the Eikonas are less prone to this. I have built quite a few Jordan based speakers over the years and never used any electronic components with them and have been more than happy with the results. By the way I think the components you mention are for baffle step correction. Jon probably included them to alter the speakers response in his cabinets.

[steve-z]

I owned a pair of Jordan speakers for about 18 months, they were the VTLs and had the Eikona 2 drive units. They were very fine speakers in a lot of respects, excellent imagery, good dynamics and excellent midband, the treble though I found problematic. Tbh I don't think the rise in treble that the Jordan FR graph shows is actually accurate, I found the treble to be lacking once you got past 4khz or so even dead on axis, and as for the rise at 8-12khz, well in mine it definitely wasn't in evidence, the situation became worse whenI toed in the axes to cross in front of the listening position as Jordan recommend, set up like that mine just sounded dull and I had to apply quite a bit of EQ boost at the top end to make them sound properly balanced. I set mine up so I was listening dead on axis but with the cone driver being so directional at HF if I moved my head slightly to either side the sound balance varied a lot which was irritating and eventually I sold them on.
Btw most modern amplifiers have a Zobel Network on the speaker outputs so putting one on the speaker is unnecessary.

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[Macca]

The graph I posted is the driver frequency response not the response of the Eikona speakers.


You don't have to have high frequency extension for instruments to sound 'right' - not much happens above 8Khz - middle C on piano is way down there at 278Hz to put that in perspective. On the other hand speakers have tweeters for a reason, they just don't do as much as some imagine. Cymbals have a lot of energy up about 10Khz though so if the response is trailing off by then it might sound a bit 'closed in'. Also short peaks or dips in FR don't tend to be audible, shallow troughs or lifts that run across a wide frequency band do.


I have heard some speakers using Jordan (and Bandor) drivers and they were pretty good but I understand that Ted Jordan was hard of hearing so probably he was not bothered about having FR flat all the way up to 20Khz.

[steve-z]

You don't have to have high frequency extension for instruments to sound 'right' .

Although high frequency extension may not be needed for reproducing fundamentals it certainly is needed to reproduce the important harmonics that give instruments their character and the airiness of the sound. Prior to selling on the Jordans I bought a pair of extremely inexpensive Q Acoustics 2020i’s which in direct comparison did everything in the treble that the Jordans didn’t do.


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[walpurgis]

Although high frequency extension may not be needed for reproducing fundamentals it certainly is needed to reproduce the important harmonics that give instruments their character and the airiness of the sound

Is there evidence that reproducing harmonics above audibility is useful? The harmonic influence on lower frequencies will be within the signal anyway.

[steve-z]

Is there evidence that reproducing harmonics above audibility is useful? The harmonic influence on lower frequencies will be within the signal anyway.

Apparently so from what I’ve read although 8-15khz is audible to most barring the elderly, certainly there is a consensus that even harmonics outside the audible range do have a effect on the perceived sound.


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[Macca]

I agree, not heard a single driver job I could live with for any length of time.

[goraman]

I agree, not heard a single driver job I could live with for any length of time.

I had a limited JVC boom box with what appeared to be 4 inch Fostex full range speakers and it came that way from new.
It came out in 91 and I really tried to like the sound and with vocals it did sound good but had very little upper end detail and turning up the treble changed the over all tone to bright but still lacked any shimmer from cymbals.
Since then I have heard very big Lowther horns and Fostex horns but they just don't move me like a nice 2 way speaker unless of coarse , a Super tweeter has been placed on top! But that changes the whole single driver thing in thee first place.

[ianlenco]

I have to disagree. I've built Eikona based speakers with one, two and now four drivers per side and there is nothing wrong with the high frequency extension. OK, at 67 I might be classed as elderly (recent test shows I can still here up to 13KHz) but plenty of ears, some much younger than mine have heard and very much liked my Eikonas. As it happens I've also used decent multi driver speakers including Dynaudio Contours and Proac Response models but much prefer what the Eikonas do - no crossover and contrary to what a previous poster experienced, a very wide sweet spot. When I listen to a speaker with a tweeter now I am all too aware of treble separated from the rest of the music. Each to its own I suppose but I don't think it is fair to knock the Eikona for lack of treble extension.

[steve-z]

Ian, I am 67 later this year myself and a recent hearing test showed my hearing extends to 13.5k so age has not dulled it appreciably. When I built my Eikona 2 VTLs in early 2017 I was closely followed by 2 friends who took the same route, one with VTLs the other with the MLTLs, after we had all owned them for a similar length of time we all came to the same conclusion independently that there was something noticeably lacking in the treble, my friend with the MLTLs actually did a measured frequency sweep with a calibrated microphone which showed up several treble anomalies the most noticeable being a fairly wide dip of 8db centred on 7khz, this was confirmed on my own speakers by applying EQ/boost of that level at 7khz which went a long way towards giving a much more correct balance. As all 3 of us bought our Eikonas within a period of a couple of weeks we wondered if there was a quality control problem with a particular batch of drive units and informed Colin at EJ Jordan Designs who said he would FR test the Eikonas and report back, we’re still waiting, that was 9 months ago. Myself and one friend since sold ours on, the other loaned his to a friend and is now using a different pair of speakers.
It was a great shame this problem was in evidence for all 3 of us particularly as we all enjoyed what the Jordans do well, image, dynamics and midband clarity in particular, for the high price of the drivers they should perform well in all areas not just some.


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[EJJDesigns]

To join in and correct a few misconceptions.

To begin with, Ted was not a deaf and in fact had regular hearing tests as it was important to know what he was hearing. But by 84 no doubt his HF did roll off somewhat. As any good loudspeaker designer should be, he was well aware of this and always relied on his test instruments to tell him what was going on. He was also careful to audition his new designs with a range of people to cover both age and gender (in general, women have better hearing at HF than men). If you are male and over 60, you need to be aware of how hearing can change with increasing age and alter one's perception of sound (and not just at HF). The JX53 and JXR6 mid/treble units had, in any case, a treble response which easily surpassed 20kHz.

Choice of loudspeakers and drivers is always a matter of personal taste. What to one person may seem smooth and unforced, to another may appear to be lacking in HF extension. Similarly, what seems clear and detailed to one may appear sharp and distorted to others. Here at EJ Jordan we aim for the most natural balance we can achieve. In that regard, we're following a similar approach to the BBC speaker design philosophy; the reference is always the live sound of acoustic instruments.

We haven't tested the specific drivers that Steve-Z mentions having a problem with, but tests to drivers from the same production run didn't show up any problems. The Eikona 2 has been remarkably consistent and the number of faulty or below-spec drivers is in single figures since production began at the start of 2014.

Regarding the extra components in Jon's loudspeakers, these are likely to be a baffle step compensation circuit. We're skeptical of the value of this - although many designers swear by them - and suggest that you try the speakers both with and without them. In our listening tests, we've found it preferable to have as few components between the speaker and amplifier as possible.

[montesquieu]

I agree, not heard a single driver job I could live with for any length of time.

+1. Too compromised. Life's too short for selecting hifi on theological grounds.

(Same applies to the bullshit propagated - and worse, believed as gospel - about triodes vs pentode, single ended vs pp, feedback, op amps, NOS etc etc etc etc).

[steve-z]

For what it’s worth having a Zobel Network should not effect a speakers frequency response, it is there purely to make the impedance that the amplifier sees more even, particularly to flatten the rising impedance with rising frequency, as I mentioned earlier the majority of modern amps like my Cambridge CXA60 have a Zobel on the speaker outputs anyhow so adding one to the speakers is worthless.


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[Lawrence001]

For what it’s worth having a Zobel Network should not effect a speakers frequency response, it is there purely to make the impedance that the amplifier sees more even, particularly to flatten the rising impedance with rising frequency, as I mentioned earlier the majority of modern amps like my Cambridge CXA60 have a Zobel on the speaker outputs anyhow so adding one to the speakers is worthless.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkYou were right about the frequency response as far as I could tell. However, there was a clear improvement in detail, transparency and soundstage when I removed the Zobel network, way too much to be any form of placebo effect. It's analogous to arguments about passive pres etc that if a music signal doesn't pass directly through some part of a circuit it can't have a negative effect.

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[Lawrence001]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I took the baffle step compensation out and for a minute or two I thought wow. Then I realised I wasn't enjoying the music and switched it all off and watched a film. This morning I soldered the circuit back in and harmony has been restored.

I have to say, at moderate volumes with a nice valve amp this is the best sound I've ever had. The sense of space and palpability surpasses anything I've had before. I can see how without a bit of correction people wouldn't get on with these if, like me, they are used to good 2+ way speakers. However if your priority is for a wide spread of music not chiefly rock and large orchestral oriented, then in big cabinets with some compensation, these drivers are amazing. Don't get me wrong, they do rock and orchestral well but you probably wouldn't own then just for that as you would probably want more scale. But they are good.all rounders with a major (massive!) strength on vocal, jazz, chamber music etc.

Oh and there's no lack of treble from these drivers at all.

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