Tracking Force Scales Accuracy

[RobbieGong]

Is there a big diiference between the accuracy of some tracking force scales and others ??

For instance, something like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Stylus-Force-Tracking-Gauge-scales-for-MM-and-MC-Cartridge-Setup/292001908157?hash=item43fcab85bd:g:C4YAAOSwWI5b-TL0:rk:2:pf:0

against something far cheaper like this made in China jobby https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Cartridge-Turntable-Stylus-Force-Scale-Gauge-Tracking-0-01g-5g-Pressure/332935093193?hash=item4d847a5bc9:g:RcMAAOSwpppcC~C H:rk:9:pf:0

[Beobloke]

I remember years ago one of the hi-fi magazines (I think it was Hi-Fi World, IIRC) doing a test of all the digital gauges on the market to see which was most accurate. They also threw the old Garrard SPG3 in for a laugh, and came to the surprising conclusion that it was one of the cheapest, but also one of the most accurate!

[sq225917]

Double sided sticky tape a credit card to a cheap Chinese one to keep the magnets apart and they're mega, better than o.o5g accurate, ime

[graham67]

Hi Robbie,
I find the cheap Chinese one works fine. Only issue is the replacement battery. I bought LR43 supposedly same as AG12 fitted originally. However with the Duracell LR43, the display is dimmer and it ran out quickly. I will be trying cheaper AG12 batteries next time as the original AG12s lasted a long time.
The digital scale is certainly easier to use than the Shure scale I have and seems at least as accurate.

[blake]

Is there a big diiference between the accuracy of some tracking force scales and others ??

For instance, something like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Stylus-Force-Tracking-Gauge-scales-for-MM-and-MC-Cartridge-Setup/292001908157?hash=item43fcab85bd:g:C4YAAOSwWI5b-TL0:rk:2:pf:0

against something far cheaper like this made in China jobby https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-Cartridge-Turntable-Stylus-Force-Scale-Gauge-Tracking-0-01g-5g-Pressure/332935093193?hash=item4d847a5bc9:g:RcMAAOSwpppcC~C H:rk:9:pf:0

Very likely they are both made in China, and quite possibly in the same factory. Probably both manufactured by Canrong.

Big difference between the two scales is that the more expensive model has resolution to 3 decimal points or 1/1000th of a gram; the less expensive model measures only to 2 decimal points or 1/100th of a gram.

The more expensive model also appears to use AAA batteries which I would view as a positive. The model that I used for about 7-8 years before it died that had the higher resolution used the button/watch type batteries that are typical in the lower priced/lower resolution models. I now have a couple of the cheaper, lower rez models that are about $10.

If you search Ebay, the higher resolution model (unbranded) should be able to be found around $50-$60. These models also have, IMO, slightly better build quality and may last longer. But the reality is that you can buy 4-5 of the low rez models for the same price and measuring to 1/100th of a gram is still pretty decent.

When I had the higher resolution model my wife was a research tech. I had her take that $50 scale into the lab and weigh a number of items up to 5 grams with it and compare the readings with very, very expensive scales in the lab. The $50 digital scale was accurate to within .007 grams when tested against the other scales.

Within its resolution envelope, I'd expect the lesser scale to be just as accurate, and much more precise than something like the Shure if that matters to you. With cartridges that I run I hear differences in VTF of around .02 or .03 grams so it does to me.

[struth]

got one of these to try against my usual similar to one you pointed to. accurecy is very similar. this one is prettier and has a bigger target area. its really a jewellery scale
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gold-200g-Digital-Jewelry-Scale-Lcd-Touch-Silver-0-01g-Mini-Precision-Pocket-/183627485645?hash=item2ac10d11cd

[killie99]

With cartridges that I run I hear differences in VTF of around .02 or .03 grams so it does to me.

Really? That's about the weight of a grain of sand. So are you adjusting the VTF for every LP you play as the variation in the thickness of an LP will give you more of a variation in VTF than 0.02g? Also, unless every LP you have is super flat then you will get more than 0.02 variation in VTF as the record plays.

[AJSki2fly]

Within its resolution envelope, I'd expect the lesser scale to be just as accurate, and much more precise than something like the Shure if that matters to you. With cartridges that I run I hear differences in VTF of around .02 or .03 grams so it does to me.

Hello Blake,

I found it very interesting that you think you can hear differences in sound with changes of 0.01grams. What do you think is the reason for this? Do you think it might be that you are on the edge of the weight you Jelco arm can take with you Headshell and cartridge combo, so that slightly changes in weight emphasise the bass or result in resonance issues?

[antonio]

I believe Blake can now change his name to Golden Ears. :)

Struth - That's a nice looking scale you linked to.

[struth]

I believe Blake can now change his name to Golden Ears. :)

Struth - That's a nice looking scale you linked to.

its good for money; a bit different.

[Jimbo]

Hi Rob, If you have some scales and you want me to check if they are weighing accurately I can compare them against a scientific balance I use at work which is calibrated regularly and weighs to 4 decimal points.

[Cas]

got one of these to try against my usual similar to one you pointed to. accurecy is very similar. this one is prettier and has a bigger target area. its really a jewellery scale
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gold-200g-Digital-Jewelry-Scale-Lcd-Touch-Silver-0-01g-Mini-Precision-Pocket-/183627485645?hash=item2ac10d11cd

That's a nice looking scale as long as it does the job, nice price as well :)

[RobbieGong]

Hi Rob, If you have some scales and you want me to check if they are weighing accurately I can compare them against a scientific balance I use at work which is calibrated regularly and weighs to 4 decimal points.

Thanks for the kind offer Jimbo,

I'll remember that if I decide to take you up on it - top man :)

[blake]

Really? That's about the weight of a grain of sand. So are you adjusting the VTF for every LP you play as the variation in the thickness of an LP will give you more of a variation in VTF than 0.02g? Also, unless every LP you have is super flat then you will get more than 0.02 variation in VTF as the record plays.

Actually, variation in thickness of LP or warps will result in very little variation in VTF once set unless you are using a unipivot or an arm with a very low slung counterweight (neither of which I use) playing reasonably flat records. If you have records with 5-8 mm warps that might be a different story but I don't have any of those in my collection.

I don't adjust VTF for every LP. That is, of course, a compromise and I'm ok with that. But if optimal "compromised" sound is off because of .02-.03 VTF being high or low and I can correct that I will. That type of range has created audible differences with a number of cartridges I've used in my system including modified Denon 103R's (ebony and aluminum bodies with line contact styli on ruby cantilevers), a couple of retipped MC 20 Supers and the current Accuphase AC 2 that I use.

Jonathan Carr of Lyra takes it a step further actually; he suggests that ideal VTF for certain Lyra cartridges will be in an extremely tight range, within .01 grams, slightly varying from sample to sample.

I would say that I'd be hard pressed to identify differences in sound quality within a range like that, but at .025-.035 grams not so much. There's not much question in my mind that differences of .05 grams are pretty significant with a good cartridge in a resolving system.

But yes, I figured I would receive a response like this.

[blake]

Hello Blake,

I found it very interesting that you think you can hear differences in sound with changes of 0.01grams. What do you think is the reason for this? Do you think it might be that you are on the edge of the weight you Jelco arm can take with you Headshell and cartridge combo, so that slightly changes in weight emphasise the bass or result in resonance issues?

I don't think so as I've experienced the same thing (as outlined above) with a few different cartridges with different compliances. The Denons had lower compliance than either my Ortofons or Accuphase (both of which have essentially the same compliance) and the audible differences have been similar with all 3 cartridges. I've always used the fluid damping on my 750 as well.

To clarify, the range I suggested was .02-.03 grams not .01 grams. That's running it awfully close and I'm sure that I'd have trouble identifying differences within that kind of range. But .04-.05 grams will be very significant with a lot of decent cartridges. That is the advantage of having a good digital scale-it can repeatedly get you into a setting within a range like that.

You do want to be careful with jewellers scales (even the Canrongs have a platform that is slightly above real record height) in terms of the height of the platform. Many of them have very thick platforms and if you do have a unipivot or arm with an underslung counterweight, they will give you an over read on VTF with arms like that of as much as .3 grams if the platform is 4-5 mm above actual record height, more if it is higher.