I'm thinking about different speakers

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm not unhappy with my system at the moment, but If I could have better speakers for what I could sell these for I might be tempted!

Currently pmc fb1+ probably worth £700 second hand.

I like the aparent frequency response, they do really good bass, but I'm begining to notice that they sound a little sorta closed in... It's particularly noticable with piano or vocal passages - they don't quite seem to have the air round them that I think they should

I can't really see how I might get something comercialy built that are much better for the same money, so I'm wondering if the best bet might be to get something built for me ... That way hannah could even choose a colour which would please her no end

I'm only really half thinking about this at the moment, but I am interested in what people think about various possible diy type speakers...the only other concideration is that they couldn't really have a much bigger foot print than the pmc's!

Any thoughts anyone?

[Stratmangler]

I've only ever heard nice things said about IPL Acoustics kits.
This one interests me http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/S3tl%20Rib%20CP.htm

[Ali Tait]

I've heard a pair of IPL's-just a quick listen-and I wasn't that keen.It was only a quick losten though.I do know someone who could build you some very nice cabinets or complete speakers to your instructions Hamish.

[markf]

Have you tried your set of Dynaudio's in your main room yet.
They might give you a different presentation than you are used to with the big PMC's

[colorved]

I'd like to mention here about VERY lovely kit,also available fully built:
http://www.wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/info_WD25T.html

and the review:
http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/pdf/WD25TReview.pdf

Vladimir

[Primalsea]

The WD Speakers are very good and well designed, Peter Comeu designed them who pretty much knows everything about speakers. I have heard them many times and always liked them.

[Ali Tait]

Yes agreed.I thought they were very un-boxy sounding.Nice speaker.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Chris and Ali - ipl's - had thought about these as being of a transmission line design they perhaps be safe ground concidering that's what I'm used to ... But might I not just end up with the same issue??

Ali - I have a mate who wanted to get into building speaker cabs, but every time I ask him for quotes on stuff he rarely gets back to me ... So that might be very useful, cheers....

I asked him about Jericho horns after seeing that thread on here ... But have since read the chap is having issues with them so I'm not sure any more... Are there any designs like that, that might be an option?

I frequently read of single driver units providing an airy sound - might that be an option?

Would any of these open baffle designs work in my lounge (in a bay window) or is that a bad idea? I find my self quite inspired (although slightly bewilderd) by some of the designe of open baffle - or what was it you said chris "frame suported driver" designs :)

mark - the dyns are very good in the lounge, but as much as I like the sound, like my little ushers they only really excell at uncomplicated music compared to the pmc's which have the balls to apear to move a lot more air when it's required of them.
I am used to speakers that are suposedly flat down to below 30hz the little dyns don't come close to that unfortunatly

The wd's ... I'm not sure ... I'd put them in the same category as the ipl's maybe option... I'm drawn to the idea of a more bespoke build ... Something "open source" if you follow my meaning - proven and perfected design without the comercial design costs of r&d ... Does that make sence?
In the spirit of the forum (and my bank balance) sound per pound is at the absolute top of my list!

I'm currently listening to my turn table (sounding very fine now) - jeff Buckley 'grace' is souunding as good as I've heard it in my system .. But for the last few weeks (since jus before I went to see dave - I mentioned it to you martin if your Reading this) the lack of airyness in the sound is starting to get to me!

(Also anthony - if your Reading this? The grain is not evident from the tt, proving, I think, that the majik and day time leccy is the cause))

[anthonyTD]

(Also anthony - if your Reading this? The grain is not evident from the tt, proving, I think, that the majik and day time leccy is the cause))
:)

[MartinT]

Another recommendation for the IPLs here. I built the S-5TL many years ago and they sounded excellent. The new model with the improved tweeter is supposed to be even better. You can contact him and go and listen to them, he is very accommodating.

I still have mine, they are in the spare bedroom waiting for a Leak Stereo 20 to be connected to make a visitor's system.

[Ali Tait]

Hamish,I've heard a few OB's and yes they are excellent.It's a good way to get great sound-A full range driver that will give you thre coherence and air you are after,coupled to say an Eminence 15 inch woofer for good bass.A supertweeter will improve things further.It's a good way to get world-class sound for little money IMO.Only caveat is the size and width of the baffles.I think they will be ok ion the bay as long as they have a little space behind them.OB's seem to be more accomodating of rooms than box speakers generally,and in any case the crossover could be tweaked to suit the room. Another good option could be a set of Hawthornes,with the bass Augies.All you'd need then is a bit of wood for the baffles,or have some made in the same style as John's on here.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Another recommendation for the IPLs here. I built the S-5TL many years ago and they sounded excellent. The new model with the improved tweeter is supposed to be even better. You can contact him and go and listen to them, he is very accommodating.

Hmmm tempting... I guess I could finish them how I liked too! Do you know what I'm getting at with my description of my issue martin, do you think they would solve that.. By the look of the price page I could probably afford the top spec Transmission line ones... Hmmm

[MartinT]

I know what you mean, Hamish, and mine (with the original driver line-up) have a very nice, open midrange. With all the drivers apparently updated (Kevlar bass driver, magnesium mid and ribbon tweeter), they ought to sound bloody brilliant. You would need to have a listen to them first but they do represent excellent value and, as you say, you could finish them in a nice two-tone flaked metallic purple if you so please.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Hamish,I've heard a few OB's and yes they are excellent.It's a good way to get great sound-A full range driver that will give you thre coherence and air you are after,coupled to say an Eminence 15 inch woofer for good bass.A supertweeter will improve things further.It's a good way to get world-class sound for little money IMO.Only caveat is the size and width of the baffles.I think they will be ok ion the bay as long as they have a little space behind them.OB's seem to be more accomodating of rooms than box speakers generally,and in any case the crossover could be tweaked to suit the room. Another good option could be a set of Hawthornes,with the bass Augies.All you'd need then is a bit of wood for the baffles,or have some made in the same style as John's on here.

All sounds very interesting, the size caveat is of concern really I couldn't go much wider foot print than what I have -

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/b127c6b7.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/bb76bae8.jpg

with that in mind what ferther thoughts do you have?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I know what you mean, Hamish, and mine (with the original driver line-up) have a very nice, open midrange. With all the drivers apparently updated (Kevlar bass driver, magnesium mid and ribbon tweeter), they ought to sound bloody brilliant. You would need to have a listen to them first but they do represent excellent value and, as you say, you could finish them in a nice two-tone flaked metallic purple if you so please.

ha!
I have measured up, and they would fit in the space too ... The main problem
is I would not trust my self building them!

[Stratmangler]

The TV is too close to the left speaker, the sofa too close to the right.
One is interfering with the dispersion of the tweeter, the other is mopping up its' effects.

The sofa will also have a major effect on the front of driver dispersion from the mid/bass driver, less so on the frequencies exiting the port.

It's also not a good idea to pop record sleeves on top of speakers when you're playing records, as that too will interfere with tweeter dispersion.

[DSJR]

A room that small would be perfect for ADM9.1's..... Harbeth P3ESR's would sound divine on this little system too...

As the above sentence is irrelevant to this thread (and this site), why not save some pennies and look for some better PMC's? - OB1i's for example?

Transmission lines have huge compromises, as extension in the bottom octaves make for confusion, suckouts and muddle in the upper bass (confirmed in HFW when tested). I'm not saying a room this size needs an 80Hz honk with nothing below, but getting small rooms to properly handle very low bass (felt as pressure waves rather than heard) can be a huge problem, as you found out Hamish.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

il just cut the sofa in half and bin the tele then shall i ;)... i know i know... the tv is usually pushed back when listening , but there is only so much i can do...
just had a chat with the nice man from ipl, he recommended these for my room size http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/S3tl%20Rib%20CP.htm
which i think is the one you recommended in the first place Chris?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

A room that small would be perfect for ADM9.1's..... Harbeth P3ESR's would sound divine on this little system too...

As the above sentence is irrelevant to this thread (and this site), why not save some pennies and look for some better PMC's? - OB1i's for example?

Transmission lines have huge compromises, as extension in the bottom octaves make for confusion, suckouts and muddle in the upper bass (confirmed in HFW when tested). I'm not saying a room this size needs an 80Hz honk with nothing below, but getting small rooms to properly handle very low bass (felt as pressure waves rather than heard) can be a huge problem, as you found out Hamish.

the bass isnt a problem any more, in facty its the one area im actually really happy with nowadays

[Stratmangler]

My comments were merely observational Hamish:)
Those speakers in the link look familiar - I wonder where I've seen them before;)

To be honest I'd forgotten that you'd had to squeeze two racks in there - it's really left you with little space to play with.
The gist of my comments remains though - you really can't place loudspeakers carefully enough, and there's a lot to consider when doing it.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

i went round and round in circles for a while with the position .. as dave pointed out, i had terrible problems with bass for a while ... its pretty good now to be fair, its really more the character of the sound, something that remains despite position that i am now struggling with

[Marco]

Hi Hamish,

If you want my best advice mate, I'd forget all about floor-standers in your room, as there just isn't enough space to accommodate them properly (I'm thinking in terms of width to keep them apart the optimum distance) in order that the speakers are allowed to 'breathe' and thus perform optimally. That is currently your system's single most limiting factor.

Shoehorning floor-standers into that tiny space in your bay window just doesn't work, and so what's happening is that your excellent system (in terms of the quality of electronics used) is showing up the limitations of your room, or rather the limitations of your speaker positioning.....

The only way I think you'll ever be totally happy with the sound in that room is to go for high-quality stand-mount speakers, so that you will hear the quality of sonic reproduction that your turntable and partnering electronics is capable of, but in a way which, short of absolute bass extension, will be greatly superior than at present, simply because you'll be able to optimise your speaker positioning properly for the first time.

IMO, there is a tailor-made ideal solution for sale on the forum at this very moment:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6184

Those Focals would sing like a canary on the end of your kit, and they are an absolute bargain. They are exactly the kind of thing I have in mind.

Failing that, I have some other suggestions, but if you could sell your PMCs for £700 and find the remaining £600 from somewhere, I think you'd be in (near) audio nirvana :cool:

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

marco, them there focals did get me thinking a bit more about this ... £600 is a lot to raise though... you really think they might be the solution?

[Marco]

Almost definitely, mate. I was chatting with Steve earlier and he agreed. He knows those speakers even better than I do, having heard them umpteen times at Audioworks.

On the end of good kit like yours, they have a beguilingly addictive and communicative way with music, which I'm sure would have you transfixed for hours. And yes, they are valve-friendly.

The other thing too, for their size, is that they pack a fair wallop in terms of bass extension, but it's very controlled and wouldn't overpower your room in any way - *and*, most importantly, you'd get a true (wide) stereo image, instead of the rather false and narrow one you have at the moment, due to space limitations.

Trust me, when you hear the effect of this properly (irrespective of the superb sonic and musical qualities of the Focals) your jaw will hit the floor! ;)

All-in-all it's a no-brainer, dude, if you can find the shpondoolies.......

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Well he still has them, he's gonna give me a call in a bit ... It's an option, although th price is scary... Anyone else got any thoughts on them?

[Stratmangler]

I've yet to hear Beryllium tweetered Focals that fail to deliver.

Another option to look at is ELAC standmounts - I have memories of being totally gobsmacked by a pair I heard in the Radison Renaissance in Manchester a few years ago on the Sennheiser UK stand.
They were just plonked down on stands with no particular care taken for setup, and they just sounded wonderful.
I also remember asking where the sub was, as the bass went very deep and was very controlled, only to be told there was no sub in tow.
http://www.elac.com/en/products/l240/pdf/bs244.pdf
http://www.elac.com/en/products/l240/pdf/bs243.pdf

[The Vinyl Adventure]

well, i have just had a chat with nick about the focals and i have first dibs on them for the rest of today ... anyone else got any thoughts?

[Marco]

Good call, Chris - I also rate the Elacs :)

Whether Hamish goes for the Focals or Elacs, or any other quality stand-mount speakers, is largely immaterial - what's most important, IMO, is that he focuses on stand-mount types and forgets all about floor-standers. Unfortunately his room just isn't right for the latter.

What makes Nick's 1007 BEs such a good option is the price, which although 'scary' is most definitely an unadulterated bargain. They look stunning and indeed sound stunning.

I mean, how often do you get the chance to own a mint pair of £3100 speakers for £1350??

I would urge Hamish to find the dosh if he possibly can!

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

I would urge Hamish to find the dosh if he possibly can!

Ditto !

[Mark Grant]

... anyone else got any thoughts?

They are excellent speakers.

If you can find the money I would say buy them.

You wont loose much if you sell them again.

Mark.

[John]

The open baffles do need something to reflect off from behind (but i heard open baffles work around bay windows Nuuk (decibel dungon) has his set up like this) and they do need a bit of air from the back.
I think what you really need to do is hear different types and make up your own mind. Perhaps visit Owston when they have the DIY meet and will have a wide variety of different speakers or visit Steve Clive or myself and hear for yourself If you hear different arrangements it will really help you decide the route you wish to take Its good to give it a good few months too before you commit so that you heard different alternatives
The WD speakers are good value but for a bit more Open baffles will take you so much further
I also know a good cabinet maker(as well as Ali) and depending on what design you go for plenty people on the site that can advise.To be honest my DIY skills are crap so getting a good cabinet maker really paid off and is worth the extra expense IMHO

[Ali Tait]

I didn't consider standmounts as I didn't think you would accept the reduction in bass Hamish,but if you were to,I always thought the DIY Fonken sounded brilliant when I've heard them.See this thread-

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=730&highlight=fonken

These would cost a fraction of what you are currently considering.

..and you could run them with a good sub.

[Steve Toy]

The Focal 1007s are amazingly coherent. The stands that come part of the package are a must though not the acrylic QS Ref speaker stands that I've heard a few times at Audioworks because this setup sucked the life out of the bass. At Coherent Systems I heard them with their proprietary stands and they sounded much bigger and weightier.

[John]

I would also listen to MAD My Clapton speakers These are very good but maybe just a bit of your price range and work well with valves

[Mr. C]

Hamish,

They do match well with good valves too, we used them on many a show powered by Puresounds' A30 amplifier, a great combination.
Excellent speaker for the outlay.
We do have a few other options, though you would need to contact us direct for the discriptions

[Themis]

If you can't get any Mulidine, get the Focals. ;)

The small Dynaudios are an excellent choice, too.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I need to do some serious thinking really ... I only brought this up as a passing thought and I'm now looking at buying some within 24hrs ... I need to be a lot more sencible really! I had an interesting chat with dave Cawley on the telelephone earlier and despite him using and liking focals he gave me some good advise in as much as moving the speakers temporarily out of the bay and putting them on a different wall to confirm my belifs that it is something in the actual sound of the speakers and not the position. I'm going to do that tomorrow morning and then concider my situation and the focals ferther... I am currently of the belife that it is the speakers as I hav had them now with 3 systems and the sound I have grown uncomfortable with is as far as I remember familiar from day one... But as dave pointed out, I would be daft to do anything rash without confirming that... He also said he struggled with his big focals in his bay window, and actually had focal out to test them before realising the truth of the situation...

[John]

Do not rush into any speaker decision Get to hear as many as you can but also if u can afford check out tweelvebears gigantic speakers and then think about how you can get them to work in your room
Dave C has given u good advice

[The Vinyl Adventure]

He usually does...
I do want to hear the "gigantic speakers"

[Marco]

Hi Hamish,

Sounds like a plan with some good advice from Dave :)

Thing is though, and correct me if I'm wrong, your speakers can't stay there even if they sound good, and I'm almost 100% certain you'll not get ANY floorstanders to work properly squashed into that bay window. Also, I've been in your room and so I know what it's like.

Nope, experimenting is fine, but all you're doing mate is delaying the inevitable..... The arrival of a suitable pair of stand-mounts! ;)

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yeah, your probably right, but, I do need to calm down a bit... And stop being so rash in my choices ... I'm not flush at the mo either, I still owe some money to a fellow member to ... I haven't ruled out the focals, but just been talking to Ali pm stylee abou owston ... That might serve to enlighten me a bit more as to what I want and what is realistic in my room

[Themis]

I second Marco. :)

[Stratmangler]

... I haven't ruled out the focals, but just been talking to Ali pm stylee abou owston ... That might serve to enlighten me a bit more as to what I want and what is realistic in my room

Be good to see you there.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I seem to remember recommending standmounted speeks to you once before, Hamish mate!

Been away for a few days so I'm just catching up on things a bit but I think Marco's suggestion is a good 'un - I thought of those as soon as I saw you were interested in new speakers.

[Marco]

Hamish,

Defo keep your options open mate, and if you can get to Owston, do it, as it'll be an eye-opener for you. I guarantee you that.

However, trust yer mad-boy uncle Marco - all roads lead to quality stand-mounts of *some* description, if you want to do things right..... ;)

Good luck! :)

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yeah chris... Last time I was looking at a different pair of focals funnily enough... I likes my big sound though... I'm thinking I might need to rethink that though to now get this airy natural sound I'm now after

[The Vinyl Adventure]

So come on then, since your all probably right, bar the focals, what other stand mounts might tick the boxes at more my price range?

[trane]

Hamish, totally agreeing w/ Marco, i'd suggest you going for these Proac SC1s at 749 GBP, just meeting the budget - they should be great in every sense for you in that room i am pretty sure :) to note, i have owned a pair and was totally satisfied - and i am an open-mid-lover, too :) the link is here btw> http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=79360 good luck, mate :)

[Marco]

Hamish,

Another good option might be the XTZ 99.25s, (rave) reviewed in this month's HFW. Apparently the ribbon tweeters used are awesome (and they look sexy as a very sexy thing in gorgeous piano black)!

At £695 new, they also wouldn't cost you a penny (after selling the PMCs).

For more info, look here: http://www.audiosanctum.co.uk/Standmount-Loudspeakers/XTZ-99.25-Standmount-Loudspeaker-Piano-Black.html

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Be careful with ribbon tweeters - they are noted for speed which is a mixed blessing if the main driver cannot keep up. Coherence across the frequency range is the key to musical satisfaction.

[Marco]

Good point, Steve - I entirely agree. In fact, that's what David Price wrote in the review :)

However, I guess that the only way to find out is to listen.... Still, I think the best option Hamish has is undoubtedly the Focals - if he can afford them.

Marco.

[MartinT]

Coherence is Focal's speciality. My previous JM Lab Mezzo Utopias (made by Focal) were incredibly coherent, it was their best attribute and kept me listening for 'just another album'. I remember Alvin Gold reviewing them and picking up on this sound quality too. I'm not sure it's a well understood parameter, but when you hear a speaker with coherence top to bottom, it stands out.

[Marco]

You're absolutely right, Martin - it's also one of the main strengths of Tannoy DCs :)

Maybe Hamish should get a nice pair of 10" Monitor Golds? :eyebrows:

He'd certainly score some for the same amount or less than he'd be paying for the Focals, and Speedy Steve could do some cool custom-made cabs......

Btw, how's the Dynavector doing - still hitting the spot, I hope? :cool:

Marco.

[MartinT]

Btw, how's the Dynavector doing - still hitting the spot, I hope?

Oh yes :)

[DSJR]

Do Focals still take one's fillings out in the treble as they did a few years ago?

10" DC's? I'd agree with that one, certainly with Eatons, DMT10's and what I think is the t165, plastic cone or not... Just watch the tweeter settings and hard-wire your preferred setting (I still prefer -1 on level AND rolloff, the newer ones seem set this way by default and done sting/screech as some smaller CD's could IMO).

[Stratmangler]

Do Focals still take one's fillings out in the treble as they did a few years ago?

Not if they have Beryllium tweeter domes they don't.

[The Grand Wazoo]

10" anything is too big for the space Hamish has!

[Macca]

10" anything is too big for the space Hamish has!

Having recently heard some 15'' Tannoy DC in a small room I am not so sure this is true - I know Marco has gone on about how his DCs don't mind his smallish room and tbh I never really believed him (sorry Marco) but now my mind has been opened! They are certainly now top on my wish list, put it that way...

[Steve Toy]

Do Focals still take one's fillings out in the treble as they did a few years ago?



They did and still do in systems that are poorly set up [tut tut!] :mental:

Beryllium tweeters are particularly revealing but get the system right behind them and it won't be your fillings coming out but your jaws dropping.

I don't think this will be a problem for Hamish.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Steve,
I'm not talking about the sound - I'm referring to the physical dimensions.


Having recently heard some 15'' Tannoy DC in a small room I am not so sure this is true

Remember this?


All sounds very interesting, the size caveat is of concern really I couldn't go much wider foot print than what I have -
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/b127c6b7.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/bb76bae8.jpg

[Macca]

Yes I see your point there Chris.

Bloody Victorians supposed to be the world's greatest engineers - they never thought about hi-fi set ups when they built their houses, did they?

If it was me I would chuck out all that useless stuff - TV, seating etc and free up a bit more hi-fi space:)

[Marco]

Having recently heard some 15'' Tannoy DC in a small room I am not so sure this is true - I know Marco has gone on about how his DCs don't mind his smallish room and tbh I never really believed him (sorry Marco) but now my mind has been opened! They are certainly now top on my wish list, put it that way...

Tut, tut, Martin - o ye of little faith! ;)

"They are certainly now top on my wish list, put it that way..."

No wonder, they're bloody amazing! Whose did you hear? :)

I think Hamish could get away with 10" DCs (they would certainly love his amps, big time) - *if* the cabinets were custom-made to fit the space he has. Cue Speedy Steve and his considerable carpentry skills...........

Marco.

[Macca]

Tut, tut, Martin - o ye of little faith! ;)

"They are certainly now top on my wish list, put it that way..."

No wonder, they're bloody amazing! Whose did you hear? :)


Marco.

Your buddy Ian - I bought an amp from him and he was kind enough to give me a quick dem. Would have to be the 12'' or 15'' for me though, 10'' wouldn't do it (stop sniggering at the back there, that boy:eyebrows:)

[Marco]

Lol - the bugger kept that quiet! Yes, his Canterburys are rather tasty.... The Lockwoods are similar in terms of sonic presentation, but have a slightly richer balance.

Both kick ass though and will pin you to the wall and frighten you to death with the appropriate music! :eek: :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Macca]

Lol - the bugger kept that quiet! Yes, his Canterburys are rather tasty.... The Lockwoods are similar in terms of sonic presentation, but have a slightly richer balance.

Both kick ass though and will pin you to the wall and frighten you to death with the appropriate music! :eek: :eyebrows:

Marco.

It was the sheer effortless nature of them that really struck me. I don't like to hear a speaker struggle to move air, it distracts me too much. Just a shame they are so expensive.

[John]

Both kick ass though and will pin you to the wall and frighten you to death with the appropriate music! :eek: :eyebrows:

Marco.

Yeahh its great having speakers that can seriously shift air and yet seduce u at the same time

[MartinT]

It sure is :)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

One ball ache later - more space for speaker moving, speakers fireing accros room

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/fce23e20.jpg

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/6282d6c3.jpg

listening seat , unfortunatly ocupied with 4 sleeping mammals - one of whom told me not to wake her until at least 7

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/49162c49.jpg

does it sound better? Dunno yet gotta wait til 7

this shit happend in my last house - I moved speakers after asking about new ones

That time it sounded worse for putting them in a bay window... This time I have moved them out the bay and made my self an equalateral triangle listening position...
I bloody hope it works... Either way, it should tell me if the sound I don't like is to do with the speaker and not the position

went into town today and asked what they thought in the 2 local hifi shops ... I said about finding something better than my pmc's for £700 on the second hand Market ... Phill at mann audio said something along the lines of "good luck with that one" and robin at audio -t said somthing very similar then suggested I should buy some spendor a5's for £1500 :doh:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I even got room for a little suround sound system now ... Sony is100 might just be comeing home with me soon

[John]

Looking at your picture I am not sure how you could make open baffles work as they need a bit of space behind them

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Living room is just to small for a hifi really
I didn't think it would fit this way round at all, but it actually looks ok... The hifi is also going to be moved to the left of the left hand speaker once i tak out the fitted cupboard
that will give me a bit more room to move things about a bit and make it look neater ... I just want to know how it sounds now!!

[Marco]

Wow, Hamish - you've certainly been at work! :respect:

I'd certainly imagine that things will sound better, as long as Hannah and you can live with the system set-up like that.....

Be sure though when you listen to music digitally via the copper DAC, that you put it on the rack in place of the Techie, otherwise it will sound pants with it perched there on the shelf above your cupboard.

Other than that, I suspect you're in for a pleasant surprise when you listen :)

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

The rack position and indeed dac postion is reativly temporary just gotta get ma screw driver out and get that cupborad out and the hifi will disapear into a corner!
It does indeed sound much better... What's this strange experience in having ... Oh hold on I know this from listening to other peoples systems ... I think it's called sound stage??:)
unfortunatly my suspitions are correct the boxey sound is still evident...
hannah has vitoed the focals ....

Here's a question for you clever folk, any harm in using the spikes on my speaker cabs to angle the tweeter more to my ear level .. They are fireing above my head a bit at the mo!

Oooo I got some good balance to the sound going on here, they sound more like they did in the last house ... That bay was def sucking some of the life out of them!!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Marco, you still up for giving some of my vinyl a clean with you machine... Obviously at
a cost... I can remember what you said you would charge me but I remember it sounding quite fair???

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Oh my god, I sounds so much better ... It's like someone had stollen loads of the notes and now they have kindly replaced them after giving them a bit of a polish... Oooo I'm very pleased I did this!!!

[Marco]

Nice one, Hamish - I was almost certain it would sound better, so I'm glad it's worked out :)

Like I said, the single most limiting factor was your speaker positioning - not the speakers themselves.... The PMCs are pretty capable designs. I didn't realise though that you'd be willing to move your system from the bay window, hence why I recommended stand-mounts.

Now you're hearing much more of the true potential of your speakers and system, so hopefully you can enjoy what you've got and forget about new speakers for the time being.

No problem regarding cleaning some records for you - in fact, I've invented a new formula that really gets them sparkling and squeeky clean!

Just PM me when you'd like them done :cool:

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

Re: the boxy sound.
Are you bi or mono wired ?
I believe that the PMC's crossover is optimised for bi-wiring.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Re: the boxy sound.
Are you bi or mono wired ?
I believe that the PMC's crossover is optimised for bi-wiring.

... is that a fact???
funny, the guy at ipl said that about his speakers too ..
chris ... you might have just saved me a load of fuss there mate!!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Nice one, Hamish - I was almost certain it would sound better, so I'm glad it's worked out :)

Like I said, the single most limiting factor was your speaker positioning - not the speakers themselves.... The PMCs are pretty capable designs. I didn't realise though that you'd be willing to move your system from the bay window, hence why I recommended stand-mounts.

Now you're hearing much more of the true potential of your speakers and system, so hopefully you can enjoy what you've got and forget about new speakers for the time being.

No problem regarding cleaning some records for you - in fact, I've invented a new formula that really gets them sparkling and squeeky clean!

Just PM me when you'd like them done :cool:

Marco.

cheers, will do

im still not happy with the boxey sound, but chris has just made a suggestion .. see above

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Grubby likes it too

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/ba303bc8.jpg

[Primalsea]

Hamish, its quite possible the boxiness you're hearing is from, well, the boxes! Not sure how you can get rid of that in your set up apart from changing speakers.

Have you tried listening to them into various positions, even domestically unacceptable ones to see if the boxiness goes away?

At least that may tell you if it is the speakers.

[Marco]

Hamish,

Bi-wiring could help things, but I suspect that the culprit for the boxy sound may be the fact that you've got your kit in between your speakers, which is always a less than ideal scenario (unless the speakers are positoned out in front of the kit)....

Therefore I wouldn't pass final judgement until you've got the kit in the corner out of the way, as you mentioned you'd do before :)

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Great stuff Hamish - across the room is often so much better than down it. Away from the side walls a bit more if you can, though

Marco.............



in fact, I've invented a new formula that really gets them sparkling and squeeky clean!


Wassat den?

[Marco]

Hehehe, itsh top shecret Mish Moneypenny! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[John]

Good to hear its helped

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Great stuff Hamish - across the room is often so much better than down it. Away from the side walls a bit more if you can, though

il try sneek em out a bit more when hannah isn't looking :)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Can't belive I didn't do this before.. I was so sure it wouldn't fit and hannah would have a fit if I tried... She actually likes it... And I've just been listening to it loads louder 92db average and she didn't moan it was too loud... It must be sounding better!!

[Ali Tait]

Hamish, its quite possible the boxiness you're hearing is from, well, the boxes! Not sure how you can get rid of that in your set up apart from changing speakers.

Have you tried listening to them into various positions, even domestically unacceptable ones to see if the boxiness goes away?

At least that may tell you if it is the speakers.

I find now,being a statics user,that I can hear the box of every box speaker I listen to nowadays.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yeah, it's def boxy because of the speakers Paul just pulled em right out into the room ... Still boxy

maybe I should check out some electrostatic's in my bid to find something new?

Funnily enough robin in audio-t mentioned a pair of electrostatics he had there a few weeks back, they were about 3 k though ...

[Ali Tait]

I have some ER Audio statics I'll be selling,but I think you'll struggle to fit them in.

[Primalsea]

The problem with electrostatics is that you will need even more room! They are dipoles; fires sound both backwards and forwards. You need to get them away from the back wall otherwise that can sound horribly congested.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

They big buggers are they? They do bass well electrostatics?

I'm really enjoying have even more big bass sound back now ... Got beyond skin on at the moment ... Sounds ace, loads of big bass really loud and it's not over loading the room at all!

[Ali Tait]

Subjectively,they can sound bass light compared to a conventional speaker,but that is because they don't produce a large amount of distortion in the bass that can give a satisfying thump to bass from box speakers.Statics will do bass,but need to be large to do so,and it can sound lighter by comparison because of the lack of a box.I find it a lot cleaner though,and articulation I think is much better than any cone speaker housed in a box.Open baffles I find much better in this respect.If you can make it to Owston,you'll get to hear both box speakers and OB's.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Is it this month or next?

[Stratmangler]

Owston is 15th & 16th of this month.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Blimey that's not long then....

[John]

i THINK OWSTON WILL OPEN YOUR EARS TO NEW POSSIBILTIES HOW U INTERGRATE INTO YOUR ROOM IS THE ISSUE

[Stratmangler]

Hostilities generally kick off 10:00 - 10:30 ish.
It's well worth the effort, and is very laid back.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Ok, who wants to give a lift :)

[Stratmangler]

You're best off posting on Audio-Talk and seeing who's able to oblige - I'm not too sure whether anyone lives close to Worcester.

[trane]

one more guess, Hamish, if i may: though there's not too much space between the speakers but give a try for them as being placed farther from the side walls (and closer to each other) - for my ex quad 22l2s it was the trick that made them truly sing. however, i then had only 1.5m between them, thus, it proved to be their fate, too - whatever musical they became they had to go for that limited soundstage available due to the room constraints...

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Pmc's from experience and what I have read are a fag to get soundstage right, I will bare that in min once I have moved the rack into the corner il have a lot more freedom to move them all over the shop!

[aquapiranha]

I never had any trouble getting good imaging from my TB2S+'s but I did find they liked to be out in the open a little rather than up against a wall.

[Marco]

You're best off posting on Audio-Talk and seeing who's able to oblige - I'm not too sure whether anyone lives close to Worcester.

How far is Worcester from Bristol? Perhaps Greg (if he's going) could oblige? :)

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

These are a fag to get right in terms of positioning, just messing bout an hour ago, hannah wanted mento move on speaker back a bit, I moved it probably an inch then moved the other one half inch... No sound stage at all! Back to where that were - basically ok soundstage ... It's frustrating!

[Steve Toy]

Worcester is en route to Owston from Bristol. J7 M5.

Hamish's amp knows the way to Owston ;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Steve you should come down with Anthony's filter and have a listen to the system now... Remember how it sang in the old house... It's back to that! It sounds bloody awesome!
And yeah, bring the filter... Whne do you want these photos ... Let me know a couple of weeks ahead if poss, shit is getting bissey

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I think I might still give chris's original suggestion a go
http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/S3tl%20Rib%20CP.htm
hannah's got a bee in her bonnet about the colour of the pmc's and now I have suggested getting something that we could have finished in what ever colour we like she's got it into her head and has started suggesting we paint the pmc's ... Which I really really don't want to do!!
Why I said to her I would let her pick the finish of the next speakers I bought I will never know!!

[Primalsea]

Trying to give your speakers more WAF generally ends in complete fucking disaster! You may have made a rod for your back there.

[SteveW]

Hi Hamish
Reading your thread here with interest..haven't had much time to post thsi week though cos of work stuff, so nice to have a quiet morning.
I have top admire your energy, especially when it seems to have paid off.
I have a similar problem, ie lack of space, as the shoe-horned in LinnTukans show below.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j280/Stevewaller/standsnew.jpg
I've still ticking off the days till I can afford to replace these. (9 months to go !), mind you since putting in Duncs DAC I have to say its sounding pretty good, and I will be very selective about replacements.
You should have come to Scalford !! I went with the express intention of searching out replacement amps and speakers. Think I may have found them in the Proac 1SC's that I heard in a couple of rooms. .. but especially the ones that Stuart (Classikfan ) had. Just astonishing. However, I will need to see how they sound with differnet amps, but can see me going down the tube route after all this, and then will face the speaker dilema again! Get rid of the telly cupboard and see how big Glenairs look in real life? See if the Spendour A6's are a better fit.... smaller Harbeths?? I dunno.
However..don't think I could go down the hand painted route. I got away with it in the kitchen. Painted up an old pair of Royd Edens the same colour as the walls....but they are really hidden on top of kitchen units, so scored 9/10 on the WAF gauge.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j280/Stevewaller/DSC_0086.jpg

[Steve Toy]

Don't paint them they will look bloody awful! And you won't be able ro sell them afterwards.

Regarding other stuff, give me a bell when you get time.

[Marco]

Paint them?? Jeez, get a grip, ya dafty! :mental: :lol:

Marco.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yeah that ain't hapnin! There is no paint going near my pmc's!

[SteveW]

Yeah...I only painted up the Edens cos I wrecked them about 14 years ago in a failed experiment to get rid of the Black Ash they originally came in. you wouldn't want to wreck summat decent. mind you those kit ones could always have veneer ironed on it it goes tits up !!


Hi Hamish
Reading your thread here with interest..haven't had much time to post thsi week though cos of work stuff, so nice to have a quiet morning.
I have top admire your energy, especially when it seems to have paid off.
I have a similar problem, ie lack of space, as the shoe-horned in LinnTukans show below.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j280/Stevewaller/standsnew.jpg
I've still ticking off the days till I can afford to replace these. (9 months to go !), mind you since putting in Duncs DAC I have to say its sounding pretty good, and I will be very selective about replacements.
You should have come to Scalford !! I went with the express intention of searching out replacement amps and speakers. Think I may have found them in the Proac 1SC's that I heard in a couple of rooms. .. but especially the ones that Stuart (Classikfan ) had. Just astonishing. However, I will need to see how they sound with differnet amps, but can see me going down the tube route after all this, and then will face the speaker dilema again! Get rid of the telly cupboard and see how big Glenairs look in real life? See if the Spendour A6's are a better fit.... smaller Harbeths?? I dunno.
However..don't think I could go down the hand painted route. I got away with it in the kitchen. Painted up an old pair of Royd Edens the same colour as the walls....but they are really hidden on top of kitchen units, so scored 9/10 on the WAF gauge.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j280/Stevewaller/DSC_0086.jpg

[The Vinyl Adventure]

My thoughts exactly steve, it's much less ricky painting kit stuff as kit stuff is less likely o hold it's value anyway!

[Stratmangler]

You could of course have the cabinets professionally spray painted.
I'm talking of the kit speakers - only an idiot would let someone paint a pair of PMC's.

You could have some IPL cabinets finished to match the Techie top plate.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yep, I'm prob gonna go for the ipl's you pointed out chris.. Hannah wants to have the painted White ... I couldn't give a toss what colou they are but if hannah is happier then I'm happier ... As long as they sound good anyway!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

The ipl's also have the advantage of being about 10cm shorter which should put the tweeter more at ear level

[SteveW]

White might be quite cool. Would you try and get a deep piano shine white gloss finish, or slap a bit of emulsion on em?

[MartinT]

or slap a bit of emulsion on em?

Ugh!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

yeah, f that... i wanna get them properly finished

[jandl100]

White speakers? :scratch:

These look rather nice http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NHT-Now-Hear-Super-One-rare-quality-speakers-/110527030782?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpea kers&hash=item19bbeca5fe

NHT are a good make, too.

Or maybe Hannah would like my "2nd system" speakers ...

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/UsherX-719.jpg

Usher X-719, rather nice. No, they aren't for sale!

[twelvebears]

My thoughts exactly steve, it's much less ricky painting kit stuff as kit stuff is less likely o hold it's value anyway!

....tell me about it Matey... :doh:

[twelvebears]

Yep, I'm prob gonna go for the ipl's you pointed out chris.. Hannah wants to have the painted White ... I couldn't give a toss what colou they are but if hannah is happier then I'm happier ... As long as they sound good anyway!

Having things nicely finished in white isn't such a bad idea as the 'iPod Factor' seems to make things more acceptable and less imposing.

Case in point, my soon-to-be-ex-speakers in before and after mode. Consider that materials and MASSIVE weight difference aside, the box dimensions in these two pics are essential identical:

Before

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv187/twelvebears/P1010202.jpg

And after

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv187/twelvebears/speaker_cabinets1.jpg

[MartinT]

Steve - maybe I missed a posting somewhere, but why are you selling your slate speakers that you so obviously put so much effort into?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Ha martin, he's heard it all before!
You did miss a fairly large thread there buddy http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6226

[Primalsea]

Maybe we could have something called "Changing Hifi". Basically a long haired twat with huge shirt cuffs tells you how to re-finish your mates speakers and you do the same to his.

What do you think?

Cant cause any more arguments than the on-line forums have!

[Ali Tait]

Yeah,a nice magnolia for your Martin Logans I think!

[MartinT]

No Hamish, I didn't miss that thread. In fact, I was one of the rude buggers to diss his WBs before I realised he had bought them :(

What I didn't gather was why he is selling the slate speakers. When I talked to him at the show, he seemed so pleased with them, thus my puzzlement.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Did you get my pm matey? (not the one about Andre, the other one ;) )

you naughty bugger, and after you had your dynavector dissed before you had it ;)

I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think he is unhappy with them, just a size and size of sound in small room/legistics of moving them whilst haveing work done on his house...

[MartinT]

Aha - thanks.

Got your PM, replying now.