Cartridge suspension

[Jimbo]

In order to compensate for cartridge suspension wear should I raise or lower the back of my tonearm?

[Bigman80]

In order to compensate for cartridge suspension wear should I raise or lower the back of my tonearm?As long as it's level when playing, why change it?

[rubber duck]

Lower the back, if the cart is riding lower.

[Jimbo]

I was thinking about this as I believe there was a post on here referring to sagging suspension. I think it was Rob who mentioned the sound had changed in his system possibly due to suspension wear. As you may know Oli my cartridge never sits level as the shibata stylus responds to running the arm slightly up or down from level depending on what sound you are looking for.

Therefore if the suspension wears ever so slightly to get back to the sweet spot I would need to adjust cartridge hence my question. I suppose it's a matter of adjusting VTA again and listening until it sounds right.

[Jimbo]

Lower the back, if the cart is riding lower.

Cheers Jeff this was what I was thinking. Just wanted someone else to confirm what I thought.:cool:

[Bigman80]

I was thinking about this as I believe there was a post on here referring to sagging suspension. I think it was Rob who mentioned the sound had changed in his system possibly due to suspension wear. As you may know Oli my cartridge never sits level as the shibata stylus responds to running the arm slightly up or down from level depending on what sound you are looking for.

Therefore if the suspension wears ever so slightly to get back to the sweet spot I would need to adjust cartridge hence my question. I suppose it's a matter of adjusting VTA again and listening until it sounds right.Of course, sorry mate, I totally forgot.

[rubber duck]

But have you actually noticed your suspension sagging? Surely this would have other knock on effects aside from VTA, e.g. compliance and tracking?

[RobbieGong]

In my case I think where I had my Cadenza rebuilt, retipped etc the suspension had also maybe naturally softened up a bit after some long playing sessions of burn in before and over the Christmas, including a number of not exactly flat lp's as I went through a lot.

As everything else seemed fine and vta hadnt changed, my assumption was changes over the period with the suspension which also plays its part in terms of why sometimes the set up sweetspot is suddenly lost.

[Jimbo]

I have heard a difference recently and checked VTA VTF and overhang and azimuth and all were spot on so l put it down to the cartridge having changed a little either the stylus was wearing or maybe suspension had changed a little. As the 2M is very fernickity with set up maybe the angle of the stylus had changed which maybe why I have heard a little less precision in the soundstage and high end detail?

[RobbieGong]

Another thing that I was always aware of to some degree, but which has become even more apparent to me in the context of this, ie: 'sweetspot drop out' whilst other paramiters have seemingly not changed is temperature.

Looking at this, past and current experiences and pondering things over, I'm convinced that temperature change absolutely plays its part and most definately the extremes.

My system room is generally quite cool, bare wooden floors, bare white walls, 1930's house, you get the picture.

It is exposed to a lot of changes in temperature and temperature extremes.

It is normally a cool room, then throughout the day it can become very warm (south facing) with direct sunlight flooding in through the patio window doors.

With winter upon us, it then goes from it's normal cool, to quite warm with the direct sunlight coming through, then as the direct sunlight dissapears, temperature drops again to cool.

Add to that the central heating temperature increases throughout the day and evening as well, then the big temperature dip with the central heating off throughout the length of the night until morning / afternoon and you'll see what I'm getting at.

With this repeated cycle and knowing the nature of metal, wood and matter, It has dawned on me that this is a key factor as to why this sudden seemily unexplainable shift or drop out occurs, especially when, as you and I have both experinced, all the usual set -up parameters have remained the same / untouched.

Coupled with this, think about what we would regard as the 'tiny' expand or contraction that temperature causes to metals, screws, wires, matter etc.

Although we cannot see those 'tiny' expand / contract occurances, in the context of our stylus, cartridge componants, wires, cantilever and then in relation to our record groove area and positioning etc, the truth is that those 'tiny' changes are in fact having a pretty big alteration and effect when you really think about it, hence what occurs.

By nature, I've learned that vinyl replay is a very delicate, intricate, finicky and vulnerable environment, It's a balancing act, unfortunately there is so much that affects that balance.

I've read it's any wonder it actually works but we know it does, It isnt for everyone as plug and play it most certainly is not.

And then to add to all of that, the best and more true presenting cartridges, carry what are known as sophisticated stylus profiles, which tend to have a larger contact area in terms of the tracing of the groove wall.

They dig deep and pull more information in regard to the recorded music in my experience - BUT as s&ds law would have it, there's a price to pay for that (nothing comes free and easy in this game as we know) which is that these sophisticated stylus profiles ie: Shibata, Replicant / Fritz Gyger S etc require meticulous set up by the nature of those profiles, requiring that they sit properly and accurately in the groove and as they trace the groove walls.

Unfortunately this also means they are very much affected by the slightest adjustments and changes, hence ......


Below is the basic stuf I'm sure we all know from school and as asked online:

Why does heat make metal expand?
When a material is heated, the kinetic energy of that material increases and it's atoms and molecules move about more. This means that each atom will take up more space due to it's movement so the material will expand. ... Some metals expand more than others due to differences in the forces between the atoms / molecules.

What happens to metal when heated?
Metal expands when heated. Length, surface area and volume will increase with temperature. ... The degree of thermal expansion varies with different types of metal. Thermal expansion occurs because heat increases the vibrations of the atoms in the metal.

Why do materials expand and contract when temperature changes?
Thermal Expansion and Contraction. Materials expand or contract when subjected to changes in temperature. Most materials expand when they are heated, and contract when they are cooled. When free to deform, concrete will expand or contract due to fluctuations in temperature.

Does all metal expand when heated?
Some substances simply expand more easily than others. If you heat wires of aluminum, iron, and tungsten metals—all the wires being the same size and heated to the same temperature—each wire will expand by a different amount. The ease with which a substance expands is given by its coefficient of expansion.


Why do materials expand and contract when temperature changes?
Thermal Expansion and Contraction. Materials expand or contract when subjected to changes in temperature. Most materials expand when they are heated, and contract when they are cooled. When free to deform, concrete will expand or contract due to fluctuations in temperature.


and on it goes.......

[smangus]

My suspension has been sagging recently, those small blue pills seem to perk it up....[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[RobbieGong]

My suspension has been sagging recently, those small blue pills seem to perk it up....[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

:eek: :lol:

[Cas]

My suspension has been sagging recently, those small blue pills seem to perk it up....[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I tried that and it altered my VTA.

[RobbieGong]

I tried that and it altered my VTA.

I bet :lol:

[smangus]

I tried that and it altered my VTA.Sounds like you need to realign your tip!
[emoji3]

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Jimbo]

Dropped the back of the arm a tad tonight and the 2M now sounds bang on!

[RobbieGong]

Dropped the back of the arm a tad tonight and the 2M now sounds bang on!

Yep, As you and I know only too well, tail down for the Shibatas sweetspot, all day long.

Coincidently, I've found the same with the Fritz Gyger S on my Cadenza now, tail down was awesome, just gotta get it back

[Jimbo]

Yep, As you and I know only too well, tail down for the Shibatas sweetspot, all day long.

Coincidently, I've found the same with the Fritz Gyger S on my Cadenza now, tail down was awesome, just gotta get it back

Hi Rob, did you fund the Fritz Gyger S better than the standard Cadenza Black stylus?

[RobbieGong]

Hi Rob, did you fund the Fritz Gyger S better than the standard Cadenza Black stylus?

Absolutley Jimbo, no question.

The difference between the Cadenza with its original Shibata and then with the Frtiz Gyger S stylus profile tip is a bit more than subtle once you've had some time with it.

As good as the Shibata Cadenza is, the Gyger S takes things to the next level, digging out even more from the grooves.

Obviously then, very detailed like the Cadenza in standard form is but with the Gyger S even more recorded information is revealed which makes it very special and honest about what was recorded and I just love that.

Even more of what was laid down is exposed, textures, phrasings, timing, recording level in regard to the the way things are miked up, which my brother also noticed is apparent.

The woodiness of stick against the rim of the snare is much more tangible having a real woodiness to the sound.

To use that cliche again, you discover certain tracks / albums all over again, you thought you knew them having heard them tens and tens of times but you realise you didnt.

There is more contact area to the Gyger S tip profile, coupled with that it is very pointed apparently so not only does it trace loads of the grrove wall it gets deep into the groove too, hence all that info, not just detal coming through.

It's not a surprise to me that Ortofon use this Replicant type profile too on all their 'upper end' carts, beyond the Cadenza Black.

I'm not going to go on as sometimes you have to just leave things for those who can suss when something is really really good, without having to bang on about it.

I've took a lot of great punts over the years based on that gut instinct and sussing out from the info I've received that some things are a no-brainer.

With consideration of the thousands that the Replicant Ortofons cost aside (and out of the reach of most of us), I can only say that if you have a worn, Cadenza or similar Ortofon mc and like me take them as your cart of choice, then a Fritz Gyger S retip is a total no-brainer - the best £439 I could have ever spent in terms of a genuine upgrade over the original Shibata Cadenza Black - a bargain !

So to answer your question, the Fritz Gyger S tipped Candeza Black is definately better in the true sense of the word, than the excellent Shibata original - It is superb :)

[Jimbo]

Thanks very much for your full appraisal of the Fritz Gyger S. It certainly sounds a good investment over the standard Shibata. Glad it has worked out for you Rob, your system must sound stunning now!:eek:

I have been messing all afternoon with VTA on the 2M Black. It is almost like using tone controls! Dial down the back a bit and you tame the top end and gain a fullness to the midrange information. Dial it back up and you get loads of detail but you loose body. Its all great fun and I love tinkering!

I have an interesting project coming up if I can get hold of a used 2M Black or bronze body but they are rarer than hens teeth!:roll eyes:

Cheers again for you reply.