SUT/Headamp for Denon DL-301 mkII?

[Brettski]

Hi there, I'm hoping to get some recommendations for a SUT or headamp please? Usually Googling will get me a decent list of candidates but I've been falling a bit short here, perhaps due to my own ignorance on the matter!

It'll be for a Denon DL-301 mkII going into the MM input of my Croft Phono Integrated. People seem to like the Denon at 400-600ohms for the most part, though some swear by it at 1k. The Croft stage seems to veer a bit towards the bassy side judging by reports (and my own currently not very sympathetic DL-110 that's going straight into it, for what that's worth) so I'm guessing it might end up preferring 600ohms+?

I'd been looking at the Rothwell Headspace but since the options there jump from 360ohms to 1.5k I'm thinking it might not be the most suitable first choice? I'll readily admit that I'm not great on the maths for some of this stuff though so there could well be something I'm missing as far as connecting it to this particular phono stage goes!

The AU-300LC apparently loads it at 470ohms but used prices seem to have gone up quite a bit in the past few years. Might there be better, more modern options for the money?

Any suggestions more than welcome :)

[STD305M]

Hi Brett

If you can get hold of a Denon Ha500 head amp you'll be over the moon.
I had the same cart as you and it was fantastic through the Ha500.
Expect to pay 200 to 250.

Steve..

[mikeyb]

There's a Haggerman Head Amp on eBay just now, not my sale and no idea if it's any good but it's under £200 and might be worth a look.

Maybe someone on here has experience of it.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 183624973087

There's also a Lentek for sale on here too

[hifi_dave]

I can thoroughly recommend the Rothwell Headspace and their step-up x'mers. Unbeatable value IMO.

I've never noticed any Croft phono stage "veering towards the bassy side". I suppose it's one of those forum things and shouldn't be taken as gospel.

[Brettski]

It could well not be the case Dave, the Croft is new to me and I was slightly hesistant to buy due to the somewhat controversial Stereophile measurements which suggested the phono stage was quite dark. On setting it up I found that it was very much the case with the DL-110 (it actually veers into boomy territory) but as I say, it could purely be down to it being a bad match for the cartridge. The 110 will be getting towards the end of its life anyway, hence buying the 301 II. I'm hoping once that's all set up properly the bass will be more under control as I fell in love with the line stage of the amp literally seconds after turning it on!

That Piccolo2 looks interesting and the loading values look about as close to ideal as I'm probably likely to get - just going to have a seach around for reports on that one!

[hifi_dave]

GT explains the Stereophile measurements in one of his posts on PFM. Truth is, the Croft phono stage measured as well as any other high quality phono stage and certainly no reason for any 'boomy' problems. Maybe it's a cartridge mis-match or set up ?

[mikeyb]

GT explains the Stereophile measurements in one of his posts on PFM. Truth is, the Croft phono stage measured as well as any other high quality phono stage and certainly no reason for any 'boomy' problems. Maybe it's a cartridge mis-match or set up ?I was thinking setup too, perhaps the cartridge is sitting tail down?

Mind you I've had a 301 mkII and thought it so so, didn't really have the detail and clarity if the ZU Audio 103 I had at the time, that was a good bit more expensive mind you.

I think Jimbo had a 301 mkII as well as Croft amps so he might be able to shed some light on the audio abilities of that combo

[Brettski]

For the sake of clarity, the 301 II isn't installed yet as I don't have the SUT/headamp.

The DL-110 is set up level, but as mentioned before the bassy thing could well be down to it being a poor match. I only brought it up here as it made me suspect I might end up preferring the 301 II at a higher value, especially since it doesn't seem to be seen as the most treble-heavy cart around. All guesswork at this point obviously, but understandably so since I'm trying to get a better idea of what SUTs/headamps to look for and don't have any such device around to test the waters so to speak.


GT explains the Stereophile measurements in one of his posts on PFM. Truth is, the Croft phono stage measured as well as any other high quality phono stage and certainly no reason for any 'boomy' problems. Maybe it's a cartridge mis-match or set up ?

Yeah, it's sounding like that's probably the case Dave. I'm certainly not trying to propagate any myths here as I don't have the knowledge to make any bold definitive claims, just trying to get things sounding right in my own system with new gear I'm getting my head around - I'd have very happily ignored the Stereophile testing if my own experience hadn't seemed to back them up! Whether that experience pairing a DL-110 and Croft was worth paying attention to is obviously up for debate ;)

[Brettski]

I think Jimbo had a 301 mkII as well as Croft amps so he might be able to shed some light on the audio abilities of that combo

Ah yes, turns out I'd actually read a thread of his about the pairing a while ago when Googling around! Going back to it I can't see any mention of loading though.

[Jimbo]

Ah yes, turns out I'd actually read a thread of his about the pairing a while ago when Googling around! Going back to it I can't see any mention of loading though.

Hi Brett,

I used the Denon 301 mkii with a K&K SUT 1:10 step up ratio with good results, however the 301 is a little soft in the top end so I did not get quite the detail I was looking for. Midrange was excellent, this was all through the Croft Micro 25R.

I have used a couple of Head amps but they sounded a bit mechanical and a touch bright but the Denon HA 500 should work well or an Au320.

[Brettski]

Thanks Jimbo! I think I might go for the Hagerman linked to above just to test things out a bit with the various values then go from there. Seems like the best plan to me since the Denon SUTs on eBay will likely all have a nice customs sting as the 301 II did!

I did actually debate saving myself the hassle and going for the Ortofon 2m Black straight into the Croft based on reading some of your other posts but given the apparent difficulty of setting the thing up thought that it might well end up being a net hassle gain in the end :). Sort of felt like I needed to at least try a LOMC at some point as well.

[Jimbo]

Thanks Jimbo! I think I might go for the Hagerman linked to above just to test things out a bit with the various values then go from there. Seems like the best plan to me since the Denon SUTs on eBay will likely all have a nice customs sting as the 301 II did!

I did actually debate saving myself the hassle and going for the Ortofon 2m Black straight into the Croft based on reading some of your other posts but given the apparent difficulty of setting the thing up thought that it might well end up being a net hassle gain in the end :). Sort of felt like I needed to at least try a LOMC at some point as well.

Well the 2M Black is something else Brett. Lets just say it has seen off every cartridge I have had in the last 4 years and sounds stunning with the Croft. If you want excitement, detail, transparency and a live sound the 2M is a must. The 301 is a bit pipe and slippers by comparison but easy to set up, no surface noise and very easy to listen too. It is certainly not a bad cartridge but almost at the other end of the spectrum to the 2M Black!:)

[Brettski]

Ha, that's the impression I got! I know he makes his stages with Deccas in mind but they're a bit rich for my blood and the 2M Black sounded like it might do a vaguely similar sort of job at a much lower price.

As much as I do love detail I think I might prefer veering a little bit towards 'pipe and slippers' where vinyl is concerned. Differentiate it from the digital a bit. Just hoping the 301 II doesn't end up going too far that way.

[Jimbo]

Ha, that's the impression I got! I know he makes his stages with Deccas in mind but they're a bit rich for my blood and the 2M Black sounded like it might do a vaguely similar sort of job at a much lower price.

As much as I do love detail I think I might prefer veering a little bit towards 'pipe and slippers' where vinyl is concerned. Differentiate it from the digital a bit. Just hoping the 301 II doesn't end up going too far that way.

The 301 does have a sweet top end with detail but it is a little restrained. It is a very good cartridge and a superb midrange. For the money it is very good value for money.

Yes the 2M is a bit Decca like in its attack and detail but more refined in nearly every way. It is a bit like a modern Decca as it were. I have a Decca Blue so i have compared them. The Blue sounds great with the Croft but tracking is crap and it can go a bit over the top, The 2M Black is perfectly behaved at all times once you have set it up and got the right amount of capacitance.

[Brettski]

Might well bear the black in mind but I reckon it would be a risk on my table anyway with a fairly limited amount of scope for adjustment.

Anyway, that Piccolo2 is en route so I'm glad I asked on here - I probably wouldn't have spotted it otherwise! Cheers for the heads-up mikeyb.

[mikeyb]

Might well bear the black in mind but I reckon it would be a risk on my table anyway with a fairly limited amount of scope for adjustment.

Anyway, that Piccolo2 is en route so I'm glad I asked on here - I probably wouldn't have spotted it otherwise! Cheers for the heads-up mikeyb.Fingers crossed for you, I hope it's what you want.

[Jimbo]

Good luck with the Piccolo 2 and let us know how you get on.

[Brettski]

Thanks guys, reporting in!

Really pleased with the Piccolo2, I've got it on the 20db gain setting and it's very quiet. Turning the Croft right up I hear the tubes way before any sort of hum. The easily accessible settings are great too. Feel like I lucked out grabbing it for £165 delivered.

However, with the DL-301 II set up and going through the headamp the issue unfortunately remains. 'Pretty bassy' keeps tipping into 'boomy, verging on distorted' regardless of how I load it. My local hi-fi place set the cartridge up for me while I was waiting for the headamp and right now it's bang in the middle of the VTA range (1.4g). My scale's gone AWOL but when the new one arrives I'll try knocking it down to say 1.3g and see if that helps.

Beyond that I think I'll start to feel like I'm clutching at straws a bit.. Maybe isolation/vibration issues? Hopefully the VTA can tame it before I start driving myself mad with all that!