View Full Version : Grim statistics on retirement age and life expectancy
montesquieu
07-01-2019, 02:14
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.biznews.com/thought-leaders/2013/09/10/retire-at-55-and-live-to-80-work-till-youre-65-and-die-at-67-startling-new-data-shows-how-work-pounds-older-bodies/amp
The data is very specific to corporate employees but quite telling all the same. Especially for me since it covers precisely the sort of corporate management where I’ve made my career. Whether data is similar for academics, small business owners or other walks of life, who knows ? - I doubt it’s been captured in this form as this was related to actuarial data gathering for corporate pension schemes.
As it happens I have precisely this calculation to make: maximise pension by working as long as possible, or go when I can when kids are finished Uni and the mortgage is paid off which for me should be around age 61 (just over three years’ time).
The numbers are pretty shocking though and might well have helped me make my mind up.
You can make pretty much anything out of statistics depending on what you look at. Doesn't make it correct, but just one way of looking at it.
No doubt tho that stress is one of the biggest agers and potential killers out but so is poverty
montesquieu
07-01-2019, 04:02
You can make pretty much anything out of statistics depending on what you look at. Doesn't make it correct, but just one way of looking at it.
No doubt tho that stress is one of the biggest agers and potential killers out but so is poverty
Would be interesting to see the raw data if availabile even better a full statistical analysis ... I’m assuming that the 18 months post 65 retirement is some kind of median measure for how long these companies pay out pension cheques but you need to look at how clustered/spread out the data is or whether it’s lop-sided.. Pretty scary nonetheless.
You can make pretty much anything out of statistics depending on what you look at. Doesn't make it correct, but just one way of looking at it.
No doubt tho that stress is one of the biggest agers and potential killers out but so is poverty
True, best one I heard was that if your head is in a furnace and your feet in liquid nitrogen your average body temperature is within acceptable limits.
97.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.
The I portant thing to do is to plan to have something to do when you have retired.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.biznews.com/thought-leaders/2013/09/10/retire-at-55-and-live-to-80-work-till-youre-65-and-die-at-67-startling-new-data-shows-how-work-pounds-older-bodies/amp
The data is very specific to corporate employees but quite telling all the same. Especially for me since it covers precisely the sort of corporate management where I’ve made my career. Whether data is similar for academics, small business owners or other walks of life, who knows ? - I doubt it’s been captured in this form as this was related to actuarial data gathering for corporate pension schemes.
As it happens I have precisely this calculation to make: maximise pension by working as long as possible, or go when I can when kids are finished Uni and the mortgage is paid off which for me should be around age 61 (just over three years’ time).
The numbers are pretty shocking though and might well have helped me make my mind up.
I came to exactly the same conclusion as the article long ago Tom. The statistics for folk retiring near their pension age are shocking and it is working in these latter years that is the killer. I have a holistic attitude towards my body and mental wellbeing and I am sure retiring as young as possible is definitely the key to a long retirement as long as you have a) the cash and b) a plan of what to do in your retirement.
I have always said I would always rather retire young and poor rather than old and rich! My retirement age will be very close to 57 which is now not far away.
Good article and like it has for you, it has crystalised my thoughts about retirement.
mad-moon
07-01-2019, 07:09
talk about stating the obvious..sheesh...why has the age for retirement increased...The powers that be are not daft...they know fine well that being forced to work well into your 60's is going to have a huge negative impact on the human body, result, it'll kill you. Now they don't have to take care of you..simple.
I'm just doing what they are doing...stating the bloody obvious...
Firebottle
07-01-2019, 07:17
Cut your stress as much as possible, be happy with what you have, stop keeping up with the Jones's.
I'm exceedingly happy to say it worked for me, took early retirement and never looked back.
The stats certainly make you think.
Early retirement is the way to go, cut out all the un-nessassary expenses if finances are tight.
willbewill
07-01-2019, 07:50
And if you Google search you can find quite a few studies that suggest the opposite.
Why do you think the government keep raising the retirement age, they don't want you to reach pension age [emoji6]
Interesting they based their research on Boeing. I worked for BA in the early 80’s and the old boys who I worked with would regularly scan the obituaries of the internal BA Newspaper, amazing the amount of names they knew who had only retired a year or two before...
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 07:58
At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, LEB has increased and continues to do so. We now die slowly from chronic expensive to manage health problems. Furthermore, past investments in retirement have been too low for most people to retire comfortably.
Don't get me started on these statistics. The conclusions, such as are implied not stated are wrong and for many reasons!
talk about stating the obvious..sheesh...why has the age for retirement increased...The powers that be are not daft...they know fine well that being forced to work well into your 60's is going to have a huge negative impact on the human body, result, it'll kill you. Now they don't have to take care of you..simple.
I'm just doing what they are doing...stating the bloody obvious...
Covenant
07-01-2019, 08:22
Phased retirement is a practical solution for some. I am 65 in March but the state pension kicks in during September. When you reach your state pension age you dont pay NI saving 12% tax. I will drop down to 4 days a week,then three a year of so later. My job is fairly active so I prefer to keep going for now.
dave2010
07-01-2019, 08:33
It's difficult to be sure from that article, as different people are - well, different. The article specifically refers to corporate employees - who seem to be working in the airline industry. It could be that such industries are indeed injurious to health. [though I doubt that there is anything very specific ....]
I"m hoping the "rules" specified in the article don't apply to me, as I did indeed pass the retirement age for my last employment, and for various reasons stayed on a few months beyond the appointed date in order to process a particular project. Maybe now I'm living on borrowed time - I hope it's not too bad.
I have known people who retired, and then died fairly shortly afterwards. One in particular died from cancer. It seems unlikely that his work would have caused that, though people commented that if had retired earlier he would perhaps have had at least a few pleasant years before going to glory.
Sometimes people retire early specifically because they have a medical condition. Some are very lucky, and then survive for a long while afterwards, while others "prove" the actuarial assessment by passing over within a short while, and thus reduce their burden on the pension companies, and in some cases the state.
I know one person, who despite being seriously ill, seems to prefer paid work and related activity to being idle. He is over 70.
I know others who have been seriously ill who seem to be enjoying life, and are certainly more active and fitter than I am. On the other hand, I knew one former colleague who was apparently very fit, and went running most days even in his 40s. He was a very fast runner, and could compete even with people 20 years younger. One day he went out for a run, and collapsed on his return. I have outlived him by at least 25 years.
The article also refers to dying from "stress", which over years has been a somewhat vague and unspecified medical condition. I think it does exist, but is not well specified. It may be physical - but most people nowadays are not doing manual labour. It may be mental. It could also be lifestyle related - perhaps people who feel stressed drink more, eat more, smoke more, do drugs, or don't do enough exercise. Or not ... There are so many possible factors.
A few things I specifically did not like at work were trying to reconcile impossible constraints. Pressure to "get things done", even though the resources including available time were insufficient. I also did not like conflict, nor the "games" that some people play in order to improve their own "advancement". However, I was probably rather unusual - and I have to confess probably did not fit into a conventional pattern of a "typical" employee.
I hope that I can continue to enjoy life for a good number of years yet.
dave2010
07-01-2019, 08:36
At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, LEB has increased and continues to do so. We now die slowly from chronic expensive to manage health problems. Furthermore, past investments in retirement have been too low for most people to retire comfortably.LEB =?? Life Expectancy ***?? What does the B stand for, or have I got this completely wrong?
walpurgis
07-01-2019, 08:39
"there are lies, damned lies and statistics"
I retired early nearly ten years ago and I'm glad I did, although I could possibly do with more productive ways to occupy my time, you get a bit blase' about it all after a while.
I do think there's an element of truth in the idea that people die earlier the longer they work, I've seen examples. On that basis though, my wife should live forever, she's never done a stroke of decent work in her life :rolleyes:.
walpurgis
07-01-2019, 08:51
On the other hand, I knew one former colleague who was apparently very fit, and went running most days even in his 40s. He was a very fast runner, and could compete even with people 20 years younger. One day he went out for a run, and collapsed on his return. I have outlived him by at least 25 years
I get the impression that there seems to be a trend in people who have been athletes or involved in very heavy manual work dying young or having terrible health problems later in life. The same appears to apply to very tall people as well.
jandl100
07-01-2019, 08:54
Then again, there are lies damn, lies and misquoted articles. :D
The article actually says "An actuarial study conducted on some of the larger US Pension Funds including Boeing Aerospace, indicates that employees who retired at the age of 65, died within two years of retirement."
So it seems to be from data across a range of large US companies, including Boeing, so probably not only aerospace companies.
Me and the mrs quit work in our mid-40s (good salaries, no kids) and that was over 17 years ago, and we ain't dead yet.
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 09:12
Yes. At birth. Each year, statistically, we have a probability of living at least one more year. If you look at a LIFE TABLE which plots these probabilities it is amazing how high the probability of surviving another year, even in your 80s!
LEB =?? Life Expectancy ***?? What does the B stand for, or have I got this completely wrong?
walpurgis
07-01-2019, 09:14
If you look at a LIFE TABLE which plots these probabilities it is amazing how high the probability of surviving another year, even in your 80s!
Or keeling over within the next ten minutes. :)
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 09:21
Or keeling over within the next ten minutes. :)
As I said. The complete reverse. If you get to 84 you will probably get to 85
montesquieu
07-01-2019, 09:32
The article is quite specific in its conclusions about the population examined. Seems to have been a reasonably sized data set, if not necessarily very broad.
I’m always rather cautious when I read the word ‘average’ as it’s essentially meaningless. I would like to know more about how the conclusions were reached. But it does seem to be based on real cases.
If you can find a way to drill down somehow I’d be very interested in your perspective.
We do read lots of studies that keeping active and indeed in paid employment can be good for you but I doubt there’s much evidence that working on in a corporate managerial role extends your life - the figures do rather seem to indicate the opposite.
At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, LEB has increased and continues to do so. We now die slowly from chronic expensive to manage health problems. Furthermore, past investments in retirement have been too low for most people to retire comfortably.
Don't get me started on these statistics. The conclusions, such as are implied not stated are wrong and for many reasons!
Just depends on which statistics your use/read and how these statistics are calculated/implemented.
poorer people from poorer areas live shorter lives; its a statistic. now it could be because of numerous causes. i would suggest, if you quite like your job, then be wary of giving it up too early, especially if its not "too much for you". A lot of folk who retire, die early, often through boredom.
Im severely disabled and its root causes are too much hard work. i should have taken my mother's advice and done less, but i enjoyed it, and needed the money so i did it. Living a long life, if your not happy isnt something to be desired. Retire if you can afford to and live a lower standard of life, enjoying the little things in life, like getting up when you want, and laughing at the rat race etc. If you enjoy it, then dont retire as it can kill you.
Trust me, i know of plenty folk forced to retire that died early, and plenty like me who went on too long doing more than they were able. Money aint everything.
dave2010
07-01-2019, 10:02
As I said. The complete reverse. If you get to 84 you will probably get to 85There's the old joke
"Who wants to live to be 95?"
"A 94 year old".
I think Segovia wrote a short passage in his latter years, asking God to forgive him for all the mistakes he made while playing, and to let him have just one more year (at least?) to perfect his technique.
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 10:11
Just depends on which statistics your use/read and how these statistics are calculated/implemented.
No. There is statistical method to establish causality and for dealing with "confounding variables"!
The usual clickbait for 'early retirement' pension schemes. Assumed causality does not a fact make :lol:
If you believe this kind of BS you probably will die early -- from the induced neurotic stress.
RobbieGong
07-01-2019, 10:29
Have wanted to be out of this game for a long time.
Work has long been a bag of stress and pressure.
I remember when you worked hard but a least you were allowed to get on with things.
Suddenly companies moved heavily to a focus of tendoring and contracting out, so changes and much more expectation of each individual.
In the past 5 / 6 years or so the pace of change and churn has been crazy, unhealthy and unbearable.
Employees face restructure after restructure, re-interview after re-interview, increase in expectaion under the guise of 'multi disciplinary working'
The world we know has gone way too far the extreme end of things.
Of course people want to work and work hard too but they are having the very life squeezed out of them by the demands and expectation from their employers, companies, organisations, businesses and as a result stress is literally sapping the life out of Mums, Dads, people, having a very negative knock on effect.
This current system and order of things is killing people, their joy and sense of life
My hope is to be out of it sooner rather than later, somehow, some way.
No. There is statistical method to establish causality and for dealing with "confounding variables"!
As I said it depends on how you use and manipulate statistics.!
Not that I pay much attention to statistics like this, which are just a bunch of unreliable numbers. But this is a US study and they lead very different lives to the average UK citizen, so it's moot.
I retired at 57 so my odds look good, but I still think it's tosh. When I started my career I was told that people in my profession died on average 5 years after retirement, so statistically I've got 2 years left . . . who knows. I do know a lot of people who fit that statistic and died within that 5 year span, but they were smokers/drinkers/unfit and overweight.
Has that study taken any of those factors into account?
It's nonsense unless it's a clinical trial, carried out with a control set and it has to take into account each individual lifestyle as well, which is virtually impossible so it means nothing.
Just chill and enjoy your life and if you're worried about longevity don't sweat over Google articles, but do look at your diet, fitness, sleeping patterns and relaxation. Get those right and your chances improve dramatically. You can still get run over by a bus though ;)
poorer people from poorer areas live shorter lives; its a statistic. now it could be because of numerous causes. i would suggest, if you quite like your job, then be wary of giving it up too early, especially if its not "too much for you". A lot of folk who retire, die early, often through boredom.
Im severely disabled and its root causes are too much hard work. i should have taken my mother's advice and done less, but i enjoyed it, and needed the money so i did it. Living a long life, if your not happy isnt something to be desired. Retire if you can afford to and live a lower standard of life, enjoying the little things in life, like getting up when you want, and laughing at the rat race etc. If you enjoy it, then dont retire as it can kill you.
Trust me, i know of plenty folk forced to retire that died early, and plenty like me who went on too long doing more than they were able. Money aint everything.
In a nutshell, this ^^^
As ever, there's a balance to be had, but personally, as long as the bills were being paid, and I could live comfortably and still enjoy myself to a degree, I'd rather have less money and more TIME to do the things I wanted to do (spend more time with family and loved ones, engage in a hobby, take on a less demanding job, even if the pay was less, etc), than have more money than I knew what to do with, but no TIME to enjoy it!:doh:
And if retiring early meant downgrading my lifestyle somewhat, to achieve it, i.e. selling a bigger house and moving into a smaller one (or to a less expensive area), having only one car instead of two, not needing to own the latest iPhone, or whatever reasonable steps it took to reduce life-threatening stress levels, and achieve a better work/life balance, I'd do it in the blink of an eye!
Why not? None of us knows how long we have on this earth, so why not spend at least some of it doing things that actually make us HAPPY, and when the grim reaper calls, leave with as little regrets as possible... Than working your fingers to the bone (yet financially, still remaining heavily in debt) - and in the end - for WHAT?
Also, aside from the very valid health arguments put forward from working too hard, if you have a partner and/or kids, what impact on your relationship with them is working all the hours under the sun having? What good is being able to provide for your children, if they grow up hardly knowing you because you were always at work...? In the long run, that often causes resentment more than anything else....
And what about your wife or partner?
It seems that some people are married to their jobs, more than their partners(!) but perhaps that situation suits them, if there's not much love in their relationships to start with... Going to work is probably a good way of deflecting attention from an unhappy marriage/relationship, and so an escape from what awaits you at home. Perhaps that's why there are so many 'workaholics'?
However, for everyone else:
If you're both working all the time, simply to fund a lifestyle that in reality you can ill afford (because if you could comfortably afford it, then you wouldn't have to work all the hours under the sun to fund it), how do you find time to have a relationship, and simply relax and enjoy each other's company, free from having to think about anything else??
No wonder there are so many divorces these days, fractious family relationships and maladjusted (often suicidal) children, starved of much needed parental love....:rolleyes: Why? Because we're all working too bloody hard, getting stuck in an unhealthy (and also unfulfilling) rut, and losing focus on *ultimately* what REALLY matters in life!!
More thoughts on this later.
Marco.
"there are lies, damned lies and statistics"
I retired early nearly ten years ago and I'm glad I did, although I could possibly do with more productive ways to occupy my time, you get a bit blase' about it all after a while.
I do think there's an element of truth in the idea that people die earlier the longer they work, I've seen examples. On that basis though, my wife should live forever, she's never done a stroke of decent work in her life :rolleyes:.
Yeah the mother in law s been like that the 34 years I've known her, but by carefully budgeting she s lived off the state quite nicely !
walpurgis
07-01-2019, 11:03
I agree with Marco. Folks are best concerning themselves with how they live, not when or how they may cease to.
Interesting. Just yesterday I was doing a back of the envelope calculation to see if I could retire at 53. Not easy as no pension. I reckon I could do it but I'd be properly poor and I'd have to do a bit of hustling to bridge the gap but that's no big deal.
I do work for a big US corp but not in management. I don't think my job is stressful but dragging my raggedy ass in there every day is starting to get old. So I might go for it. Could always go back to work if it got desperate. Some of the managers do seem pretty stressed but it tends to be the ones who are out of their depth in management but won't accept the fact.
If the figures presented are based on the pension actuaries then should probably be taken seriously - if they don't get the actuaries right then they go broke so there's a fair incentive to be accurate. Even if the article is just a click bait for the pension funds (which it is).
If the figures presented are based on the pension actuaries then should probably be taken seriously - if they don't get the actuaries right then they go broke so there's a fair incentive to be accurate.
None of the 'facts' presented in this article should be taken even remotely seriously in relation to personal pension decisions. It is so utterly flawed and skewed in its conclusions that it doesn't even warrant a moments consideration in that context.
All the superficial data revealed by the 'study' does is to provide a basis for a more comprehensive and accurate examination of likely contributory factors and corroborative relationships that might indicate causal likelihoods.
The origin and motivations for the original data scan need to be treated with a very high level of scepticism - the pension companies have early retirement schemes to flog and are well served by promoting paranoia inducing bullshit such as this in their marketing scams (which also include paying bloggers and vloggers to push these kind of bullshit articles)
As you say - clickbait ... and of the worse kind.
Has that study taken any of those factors into account?
It's nonsense unless it's a clinical trial, carried out with a control set and it has to take into account each individual lifestyle as well, which is virtually impossible so it means nothing.
Just chill and enjoy your life and if you're worried about longevity don't sweat over Google articles, but do look at your diet, fitness, sleeping patterns and relaxation. Get those right and your chances improve dramatically. You can still get run over by a bus though ;)
Absolutely - 100% agreement :thumbsup:
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 11:34
The guy who wrote this crap should know better having been mathematically trained. Clearly, written for cash not enlightenment!
None of the 'facts' presented in this article should be taken even remotely seriously in relation to personal pension decisions.
But in more general terms it has a point. The choice between working yourself into the ground until you're 67 or packing it in early and being poor but happy. I've sort of got used to having a decent disposable income and buying whatever I like and it worries me that if I continue I'll become dependant on that and won't be able to cope with being poor again. So it might be better to do it sooner rather than later.
unless you have a big nest egg or a good plan, 53 is too young. its a long time and the wrong time to be poor if you dont have to. imo of course.
I don't think it's a long time. The years seem to fly by now. Seems like Christmas comes round every couple of weeks.
A bloke I know was made redundant by BT at around that age. He got a good pay-off, but became bored sitting around all day, so got a part-time job in the post-room of a local company. No pressure, everyone liked him, and he got a nice weekly wage to top up his pension fund.
I left work aged 58 and have never regretted it, but I'm naturally lazy so don't mind being unoccupied.
I don't think it's a long time. The years seem to fly by now. Seems like Christmas comes round every couple of weeks.
life slows down when your poor and idle :D
life slows down when your poor and idle :D
That sounds good! Like Joe I'm an idle bastard, I don't need to be doing stuff all the time. In fact I reckon I'm even lazier than Joe is.
That sounds good! Like Joe I'm an idle bastard, I don't need to be doing stuff all the time. In fact I reckon I'm even lazier than Joe is.
:lol:
wish now i had been a bit more like that; now idleness is forced upon me
Here's the Catch-22 view on how to make time go more slowly:
“Dunbar loved shooting skeet because he hated every minute of it and the time passed so slowly. He had figured out that a single hour on the skeet-shooting range with people like Havermeyer and Appleby could be worth as much as eleven-times-seventeen years.
“I think you’re crazy,” was the way Clevinger had responded to Dunbar’s discovery.
“Who wants to know?” Dunbar answered.
“I mean it,” Clevinger insisted.
“Who cares?” Dunbar answered.
“I really do. I’ll even go as far as to concede that life seems longer i—“
“—is longer i—“
“—is longer—IS longer? All right, is longer if it’s filled with periods of boredom and discomfort, b—“
“Guess how fast?” Dunbar said suddenly.
“Huh?”
“They go,” Dunbar explained.
“Who?”
“Years.”
“Years?”
“Years,” said Dunbar. “Years, years, years.”
“Do you know how long a year takes when it’s going away?” Dunbar asked Clevinger. “This long.” He snapped his fingers. “A second ago you were stepping into college with your lungs full of fresh air. Today you’re an old man.”
“Old?” asked Clevinger with surprise. “What are you talking about?”
“Old.”
“I’m not old.”
“You’re inches away from death every time you go on a mission. How much older can you be at your age? A half minute before that you were stepping into high school, and an unhooked brassiere was as close as you ever hoped to get to Paradise. Only a fifth of a second before that you were a small kid with a ten-week summer vacation that lasted a hundred thousand years and still ended too soon. Zip! They go rocketing by so fast. How the hell else are you ever going to slow time down?” Dunbar was almost angry when he finished.
“Well, maybe it is true,” Clevinger conceded unwillingly in a subdued tone. Maybe a long life does have to be filled with many unpleasant conditions if it’s to seem long. But in that event, who wants one?”
“I do,” Dunbar told him.
“Why?” Clevinger asked.
“What else is there?”
good book... good as gold was probably my fav of his.
That sounds good! Like Joe I'm an idle bastard, I don't need to be doing stuff all the time. In fact I reckon I'm even lazier than Joe is.
The argument my teacher used to persuade me to go to university was that it was three years of doing very little and being paid for the privilege. When I left university I went on the dole for six months. That was great; rent paid, and just enough money to keep me in food and drink. I would quite happily have stayed unemployed and freed up a job for someone who wanted to work, but those pesky kids at the DHSS weren't having any.
jandl100
07-01-2019, 12:13
Parasites, the lot of you "idle bastards"! :doh:
Whytf do you think other people should support you?
Still, it takes all sorts, don't it.
Here's the Catch-22 view on how to make time go more slowly:
“Dunbar loved shooting skeet because he hated every minute of it and the time passed so slowly. He had figured out that a single hour on the skeet-shooting range with people like Havermeyer and Appleby could be worth as much as eleven-times-seventeen years.
“I think you’re crazy,” was the way Clevinger had responded to Dunbar’s discovery.
“Who wants to know?” Dunbar answered.
“I mean it,” Clevinger insisted.
“Who cares?” Dunbar answered.
“I really do. I’ll even go as far as to concede that life seems longer i—“
“—is longer i—“
“—is longer—IS longer? All right, is longer if it’s filled with periods of boredom and discomfort, b—“
“Guess how fast?” Dunbar said suddenly.
“Huh?”
“They go,” Dunbar explained.
“Who?”
“Years.”
“Years?”
“Years,” said Dunbar. “Years, years, years.”
“Do you know how long a year takes when it’s going away?” Dunbar asked Clevinger. “This long.” He snapped his fingers. “A second ago you were stepping into college with your lungs full of fresh air. Today you’re an old man.”
“Old?” asked Clevinger with surprise. “What are you talking about?”
“Old.”
“I’m not old.”
“You’re inches away from death every time you go on a mission. How much older can you be at your age? A half minute before that you were stepping into high school, and an unhooked brassiere was as close as you ever hoped to get to Paradise. Only a fifth of a second before that you were a small kid with a ten-week summer vacation that lasted a hundred thousand years and still ended too soon. Zip! They go rocketing by so fast. How the hell else are you ever going to slow time down?” Dunbar was almost angry when he finished.
“Well, maybe it is true,” Clevinger conceded unwillingly in a subdued tone. Maybe a long life does have to be filled with many unpleasant conditions if it’s to seem long. But in that event, who wants one?”
“I do,” Dunbar told him.
“Why?” Clevinger asked.
“What else is there?”
Lol. I realise that for time to go very slowly you have to be very bored. At school time used to stand still during Latin. A 40 minute lesson would last an eternity. I'm sure in some part of my consciousness I'm still there now, at 1520 on a Thursday afternoon with another 25 minutes still to go. And church. Sunday Mass, probably only a little over an hour but it really was forever. Don't fancy taking up Latin or going to church again though.
Flying anywhere, that takes forever. On an 8 hour flight I can read two of those big thick crappy novels you buy at the airport, finish the second one and there's still 4 hours of flight time left to go. How does that work? Also noticed the last hour at work. You start a task at 1600 that should take at least 3 hours, finish it, look at the clock and its 1620.
Lol. I realise that for time to go very slowly you have to be very bored. At school time used to stand still during Latin. A 40 minute lesson would last an eternity. I'm sure in some part of my consciousness I'm still there now, at 1520 on a Thursday afternoon with another 25 minutes still to go. And church. Sunday Mass, probably only a little over an hour but it really was forever. Don't fancy taking up Latin or going to church again though.
The very worst was mass on Good Friday. That seemed to last all day. My wife's equivalent was RE lessons given by her headmistress, which always seemed to be about Saint Paul wandering about the place making a nuisance of himself. After what seemed hours of this, my wife would steal a glance at the clock, to find that barely a minute had passed. My economics A level lessons were equally tedious, but I slept through most of those.
Parasites, the lot of you "idle bastards"! :doh:
Whytf do you think other people should support you?
Still, it takes all sorts, don't it.
I'd be back on the dole tomorrow if I could, happiest days of my life. Although in my case it wasn't the DHSS making me get a job, I got one because I thought I probably should. Big mistake, paying for it now.
jandl100
07-01-2019, 12:23
:lolsign:
Must admit I enjoyed work, but that didn't stop me quitting as soon as I could while still maintaining the standard of living we'd chosen.
The very worst was mass on Good Friday. That seemed to last all day. My wife's equivalent was RE lessons given by her headmistress, which always seemed to be about Saint Paul wandering about the place making a nuisance of himself. After what seemed hours of this, my wife would steal a glance at the clock, to find that barely a minute had passed. My economics A level lessons were equally tedious, but I slept through most of those.
End of term school mass! 3 hours of agony. I swear the clock would run backwards. Never mind the fire and brimstone, if they'd just told us that Hell was sitting in school mass forever we'd all be living our lives like Jesus.
:lolsign:
Must admit I enjoyed work, but that didn't stop me quitting as soon as I could while still maintaining the standard of living we'd chosen.
'I like work, it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours.'
I'd be back on the dole tomorrow if I could, happiest days of my life. Although in my case it wasn't the DHSS making me get a job, I got one because I thought I probably should. Big mistake, paying for it now.
:lol:
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 12:50
Been in hospital for nearly 4 weeks. No release imminent. Ask me about time?:steam:
Been in hospital for nearly 4 weeks. No release imminent. Ask me about time?:steam:
That's even worse than church (although not as bad as Latin). Hope you are getting better Geoff.
I don't know what the argument is anyway, Larkin covered this ground years ago:
Toads Revisited
Walking around in the park
Should feel better than work:
The lake, the sunshine,
The grass to lie on,
Blurred playground noises
Beyond black-stockinged nurses -
Not a bad place to be.
Yet it doesn't suit me.
Being one of the men
You meet of an afternoon:
Palsied old step-takers,
Hare-eyed clerks with the jitters,
Waxed-fleshed out-patients
Still vague from accidents,
And characters in long coats
Deep in the litter-baskets -
All dodging the toad work
By being stupid or weak.
Think of being them!
Hearing the hours chime,
Watching the bread delivered,
The sun by clouds covered,
The children going home;
Think of being them,
Turning over their failures
By some bed of lobelias,
Nowhere to go but indoors,
Nor friends but empty chairs -
No, give me my in-tray,
My loaf-haired secretary,
My shall-I-keep-the-call-in-Sir:
What else can I answer,
When the lights come on at four
At the end of another year?
Give me your arm, old toad;
Help me down Cemetery Road.
He was a cheery old bugger, wasn't he? Especially as portrayed by David Jason in 'The Darling Buds of May'.
Here's another of his on the subject of work and money:
'Quarterly, is it, money reproaches me:
‘Why do you let me lie here wastefully?
I am all you never had of goods and sex.
You could get them still by writing a few cheques.’
So I look at others, what they do with theirs:
They certainly don’t keep it upstairs.
By now they’ve a second house and car and wife:
Clearly money has something to do with life
—In fact, they’ve a lot in common, if you enquire:
You can’t put off being young until you retire,
And however you bank your screw, the money you save
Won’t in the end buy you more than a shave.
I listen to money singing. It’s like looking down
From long french windows at a provincial town,
The slums, the canal, the churches ornate and mad
In the evening sun. It is intensely sad.'
dave2010
07-01-2019, 13:23
The very worst was mass on Good Friday. That seemed to last all day. My wife's equivalent was RE lessons given by her headmistress, which always seemed to be about Saint Paul wandering about the place making a nuisance of himself. After what seemed hours of this, my wife would steal a glance at the clock, to find that barely a minute had passed. My economics A level lessons were equally tedious, but I slept through most of those.Wagner operas are a bit like that, and have been commented on by listeners and musicians alike. They start, and after an hour or so you think the interval will be along soon. After another hour you really feel like an ice cream, so you look at your watch and discover it's only 10 minutes since the start. Some Shakespeare plays are also like that, IMO, but then I'm considered a Philistine where Shakespeare is concerned.
Been in hospital for nearly 4 weeks. No release imminent. Ask me about time?:steam:
yup, hope u get out and well soon. hospitals are ok when you feel terrible, but when your a bit better you just have to get out
Im severely disabled and its root causes are too much hard work.
So, if you could turn back the clock, and given the benefit now of hindsight, is there anything you'd have changed in terms of your approach to working?:)
Marco.
So, if you could turn back the clock, and given the benefit of hindsight, is there anything you'd have changed in terms of your approach to working?:)
Marco.
i would have done less of it. probably should have stayed in electronics and not veered into heavy jobs. Lifting and laying a wife for many years didnt help either.
Regrets is maybe too strong a word, but I would have done some things different I guess, or tried to. I'm a bit of a fatalist tho, so it was maybe just meant to be.
Only bonus is still got 2 kids and have 2 grandkids, so that is my lifetime's achievement. More than many have :)
oh and a decent stereo:eyebrows:
I agree with Marco. Folks are best concerning themselves with how they live, not when or how they may cease to.
Exactly... We can only (to an extent) control the here and now, not the future, as we don't know what it holds. Therefore, I'd advocate spending more time focussing on the present, as the 'future' you're planning for might never happen.
My advice? Enjoy the special moments in life, when they come along, as much as possible - and if they don't come along, *create* some. Make some nice memories with friends, family and loved ones while you can, which you can treasure forever, thus ensuring that you have a reason to smile everyday, and take nothing for granted.
Life's too short to spend it feeling resentful, lonely, or unhappy/unfulfilled - or sucked into a pointless materialistic existence with someone you don't like, let alone love. Or dreading doing a job you hate. Depart this earth with as little regrets (and as small a bank balance, but as big a SMILE on your face) as possible!!
:exactly:
Marco.
i would have done less of it. probably should have stayed in electronics and not veered into heavy jobs. Lifting and laying a wife for many years didnt help either.
Regrets is maybe too strong a word, but I would have done some things different I guess, or tried to. I'm a bit of a fatalist tho, so it was maybe just meant to be.
Only bonus is still got 2 kids and have 2 grandkids, so that is my lifetime's achievement. More than many have :)
Yup, and the thing is, they're a credit to you and your sadly departed wife. That's no accident, and much of it comes from being there when they needed you most.
Anyone with a healthy sperm count (or a functioning womb) can 'pop out sprogs' until the cows come home... It's when your offspring grow up to be kind, well-adjusted adults, whom you can be proud of, as a direct result of YOUR good parenting, that you can then say you've achieved something worthwhile.
There are too many folks out there, who having spawned multiple 'brats' (and yes I use that word deliberately, because that's all they are - and one only has to look at the world around us to see evidence of this), think that they've achieved something special, rather than simply having successfully performed a biological function.
Marco.
montesquieu
07-01-2019, 14:06
Interesting discussion while I've been travelling home I posted this as I received it from a mate (who is - ahem - a daily newspaper journalist we used to work together, so he should know better) in the back of a taxi in Taiwan, I never got a chance to look into this properly till waiting for my connection (I'm still in Hong Kong boarding shortly). I found it quite intriguing that such a large effect appeared to have been shown, this did need digging into.
Well it seems the data (such as it is) is ancient (2002) and it seems to resurface every so often (last time it got passed around significantly was 2013), it seems to have been lifted again since the new year. There seems to be very little to corroborate it.
So my apologies for getting people spun up and it seems the skeptics are most definitely correct on this one.
Having said that maybe it's my age but it is a topic I'm giving much throught to - how long to work at my admittedly decently paid corporate job once technically I don't have to. I can think of many many things I'd love to have a crack at once I don't really need the money. (Or at least, where I don't have the massive monthly commitments I've carried most of my life).
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2019, 14:27
That sounds good! Like Joe I'm an idle bastard, I don't need to be doing stuff all the time. In fact I reckon I'm even lazier than Joe is.
I was going to write a lengthy essay outlining why I'm lazier than both of you, but then I couldn't be arsed
Yup, and the thing is, they're a credit to you and your sadly departed wife. That's no accident, and much of it comes from being there when they needed you most.
Anyone with a healthy sperm count (or a functioning womb) can 'pop out sprogs' until the cows come home... It's when your offspring grow up to be kind, well-adjusted adults, whom you can be proud of, as a direct result of YOUR good parenting, that you can then say you've achieved something worthwhile.
There are too many folks out there, who having spawned multiple 'brats' (and yes I use that word deliberately, because that's all they are - and one only has to look at the world around us to see evidence of this), think that they've achieved something special, rather than simply having successfully performed a biological function.
Marco.
a guy i worked with once(he was on the lump of course) reckoned his wife should get fitted with a zip.:doh: i told him to give her a rest ffs. sprogs everywhere, all to keep the child benefit coming in i think.
Nightmare. Utter wastes of space... I'd have them all neutered at birth! It's a major reason for why the world's in the state it is.
Marco.
dave2010
07-01-2019, 15:40
Nightmare. Utter wastes of space... I'd have them all neutered at birth! It's a major reason for why the world's in the state it is.
Marco.I'm not sure that "you" are meant to be writing things like that - not very PC is it? Not that I'm disagreeing.
It's not only the low end who are causing problems. There are a lot of middle and upper people who are proud of having kids, and getting them educated, and perhaps into decent jobs. The kids then go off on gap years, and round the world holidays, and consume like it's going out of fashion. The parents meanwhile claim they can do their bit by their liberal and eco values. Perhaps they do manage to do recycling in the green (or blue) bins a couple of times a month, and think they've done their bit for the planet. In the meantime their progeny are carrying on with the consumption.
I'm not perfect - I've done some of this myself.
Some form of balance is needed, but some things, like motherhood and apple pie, just can't be criticised! :doh:
I'm not sure that "you" are meant to be writing things like that - not very PC is it? Not that I'm disagreeing.
Lol - do you think I give a damn, Dave? I'm completely non-PC. I say what I think, if I believe that it's justified, and folk can take it or leave it;)
It's not only the low end who are causing problems. There are a lot of middle and upper people who are proud of having kids, and getting them educated, and perhaps into decent jobs.
And so they should. It isn't necessarily a class thing. Good parents are born from having good values instilled in them by their parents, not from wealth or status, and for bringing kids onto this earth for the *right* reasons, i.e. ones that don't involve gaining financially from the exercise, at the taxpayer's expense!
Plus, in terms of relationships and marriage, and the knock-on effects of that, as far as couples having children, it helps the development of your offspring if the marriages and relationships in question (and any subsequent births) were founded upon/as a result of mutual LOVE and RESPECT between both parties concerned, not convenience/the feeling of having to satisfy an 'obligation', or worse, the unwanted result of a drunken Saturday night fumble in a bus shelter....
Howz dat for being 'non-PC'?:eek::D
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2019, 16:26
Lol - do you think I give a damn, Dave? I'm completely non-PC. I say what I think, if I believe that it's justified, and folk can take it or leave it;)
And so they should. It isn't necessarily a class thing. Good parents are born from having good values instilled in them by their parents, not from wealth or status, and for bringing kids onto this earth for the *right* reasons, i.e. ones that don't involve gaining financially from the exercise, at the taxpayer's expense!
Plus, in terms of relationships and marriage, and the knock-on effects of that, as far as couples having children, it helps the development of your offspring if the marriages and relationships in question (and any subsequent pregnancies) were founded upon/as a result of mutual LOVE and RESPECT between both parties concerned, not convenience/the feeling of having to satisfy an 'obligation', or worse, the unwanted result of a drunken Saturday night fumble in a bus shelter....
Howz dat for being 'non-PC'?:eek::D
Marco.
To be fair, Dave did say he was not disagreeing...
It's time this term "PC" was knocked on the head - these days it seems to be an automatic reaction to any bold statement (ooh, is it PC? Are we allowed to say that?) The answers are: "don't care", and "I'm going to say it anyway".
We should all try to make at least one "un-PC" statement every day, and if anyone objects, just take them off your Christmas cards list. Or if you feel up to it give 'em a smack round the head. Eventually un-PC will become the accepted norm, and we can all go back to the business of relying on common sense.
My dear mother always used to say that prospective parents should first take an IQ test, and if they score below a certain number shouldn't be allowed to procreate.
While I think that may be a bit harsh, I do wonder whether there should be a licensing system, where tests should be taken, to determine intelligence, aptitude and mental suitability. After all you wouldn't want a psycho babysitting your kids, so imagine how bad it could be if your own mum or dad was that nutjob.
We should all try to make at least one "un-PC" statement every day, and if anyone objects, just take them off your Christmas cards list. Or if you feel up to it give 'em a smack round the head. Eventually un-PC will become the accepted norm, and we can all go back to the business of relying on common sense.
.
I've been doing that for years. In fact I usually manage more than one a day now I'm thinking about it. Work is a good venue. Apparently suggesting that the 'Children In Need' telethon be re-named 'Children In Need Of Playstations' is not PC. Who knew?
To be fair, Dave did say he was not disagreeing...
Oh I know... I was just clearing up the PC thing!
It's time this term "PC" was knocked on the head - these days it seems to be an automatic reaction to any bold statement (ooh, is it PC? Are we allowed to say that?) The answers are: "don't care", and "I'm going to say it anyway".
We should all try to make at least one "un-PC" statement every day, and if anyone objects, just take them off your Christmas cards list. Or if you feel up to it give 'em a smack round the head. Eventually un-PC will become the accepted norm, and we can all go back to the business of relying on common sense.
Haha - too fucking right... I have an extremely low-tolerance threshold for 'delicate little wallflowers', who get 'offended' by the sight of their own shadows. FUCK political correctness!! Deal instead with REALITY.
My dear mother always used to say that prospective parents should first take an IQ test, and if they score below a certain number shouldn't be allowed to procreate.
While I think that may be a bit harsh, I do wonder whether there should be a licensing system, where tests should be taken, to determine intelligence, aptitude and mental suitability. After all you wouldn't want a psycho babysitting your kids, so imagine how bad it could be if your own mum or dad was that nutjob.
...and she had a very good point, as indeed do you in the bit I've highlighted. Best not get me started on that one, as I have *very strong* views on the matter, which would almost certainly have the 'PC brigade' reaching for their inhalers and tut-tutting into their lightly-soiled panties:eyebrows:
Marco.
I've been doing that for years. In fact I usually manage more than one a day now I'm thinking about it. Work is a good venue. Apparently suggesting that the 'Children In Need' telethon be re-named 'Children In Need Of Playstations' is not PC. Who knew?
:lol::D
More like 'Children in Need of a Good Kick Up The Backside'!!
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2019, 16:54
I've been doing that for years. In fact I usually manage more than one a day now I'm thinking about it. Work is a good venue. Apparently suggesting that the 'Children In Need' telethon be re-named 'Children In Need Of Playstations' is not PC. Who knew?
I call it "Children in need of a slap".
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2019, 16:56
Of course "Children in need of a PlayStation" is not PC. It's not X-Box either. It's PlayStation.
Some form of balance is needed, but some things, like motherhood and apple pie, just can't be criticised! :doh:
Quite rightly. My mother's apple pie was delicious.
dave2010
07-01-2019, 17:13
Oh I know... I was just clearing up the PC thing!
No Probs ...
While I think that may be a bit harsh, I do wonder whether there should be a licensing system, where tests should be taken, to determine intelligence, aptitude and mental suitability. After all you wouldn't want a psycho babysitting your kids, so imagine how bad it could be if your own mum or dad was that nutjob.
However, bright and responsible parents do not necessarily produce bright and responsbile offspring, and I believe that it's also possible that
dumb and irresponsbile parents may have bright and responsible progeny.
Genetics is weird, and results aren't always as some might expect. Thus eugenics hasn't always worked in the past - perhaps fortunately.
However, bright and responsible parents do not necessarily produce bright and responsbile offspring, and I believe that it's also possible that
dumb and irresponsbile parents may have bright and responsible progeny.
Genetics is weird, and results aren't always as some might expect. Thus eugenics hasn't always worked in the past - perhaps fortunately.
In the same way that mongrel dogs and moggies are usually more healthy than pedigree breeds, a bit of a mixture is better than too much of the same. But it's all a huge gamble when all's said and done. As Sly Stone put it:
'One child grows up to be
Somebody who just loves to learn
And another child grows up to be
Somebody you'd just love to burn'.
As for pensions, I learned fairly early in life (in my mid-20s) that paying into pension plans (either through work or privately) was largely a mug's game, as the main beneficiaries are almost always the companies making interest on your payments!:doh:
And if the pension company or business you've been paying funds into for years goes bust, before you retire or the policy is due to pay out - what happens to all the money you've invested...?
No, I decided early on that the best way of securing my future was to utilise my selling/entrepreneurial skills, and accrue assets through working hard and/or smart (largely from starting my own business, which fortunately was a success), which in future would have sufficient value to help fund my old age. That's why, among other things, I dabbled in the property market, by judiciously investing money into it, using some of the profits I'd made from my business.
Therefore, my 'pension' now (and Del's) is tied up in bricks and mortar: properties we bought at a good price when the market was less buoyant, have gained significant value since and now own outright, thus can sell when necessary.
My advice? Try and have a plan that secures your future, but which doesn't rely solely on influences out with of your control. Too many folks are born with skillsets that are never properly utilised, or to earn them a living, by turning what they're good at into cash, so years of their lives are wasted working for companies and making others money instead!
Always try and be as self-sufficient and in control of your life and destiny as possible, as more often than not it pays dividends:cool:
Marco.
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 17:45
No Probs ...
However, bright and responsible parents do not necessarily produce bright and responsbile offspring, and I believe that it's also possible that
dumb and irresponsbile parents may have bright and responsible progeny.
Genetics is weird, and results aren't always as some might expect. Thus eugenics hasn't always worked in the past - perhaps fortunately.
Sorry, I would say the Holocaust was pretty effective. Don't confuse talk about eugenics with being anti PC!I can't believe the point needs to be made here! Again
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2019, 17:52
In the same way that mongrel dogs and moggies are usually more healthy than pedigree breeds, a bit of a mixture is better than too much of the same. But it's all a huge gamble when all's said and done. As Sly Stone put it:
'One child grows up to be
Somebody who just loves to learn
And another child grows up to be
Somebody you'd just love to burn'.
It's true that while parents play a big part in how their kids turn out, there are other factors - I have one daughter who says she never farts, and would never use the word "fart" anyway, while my other daughter taught her four year old nephew to burp the alphabet. Not sure which one takes after her dad.
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2019, 17:55
Sorry, I would say the Holocaust was pretty effective. Don't confuse talk about eugenics with being anti PC!I can't believe the point needs to be made here! Again
Well January is looking a bit light, topics-wise. So maybe a bit of recycling is in order.
It's true that while parents play a big part in how their kids turn out, there are other factors - I have one daughter who says she never farts, and would never use the word "fart" anyway, while my other daughter taught her four year old nephew to burp the alphabet. Not sure which one takes after her dad.
I have one daughter who loves horror films, the gorier the better, and another who faints at anything remotely scary. One only likes Metal music, the other can't stand it. One dresses almost exclusively in black, the other prefers bright colours. One is tidy to the point of OCD-ness, the other is extremely untidy. It's completely baffling.
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2019, 18:20
I have one daughter who loves horror films, the gorier the better, and another who faints at anything remotely scary. One only likes Metal music, the other can't stand it. One dresses almost exclusively in black, the other prefers bright colours. One is tidy to the point of OCD-ness, the other is extremely untidy. It's completely baffling.
You wouldn't want it any other way would you? And despite their differences no doubt they will grow up to be best friends, if they haven't already! While our kids may have wildly differing personalities, it's the morals, their sense of right and wrong, which are really important. And I think they mostly get that from their parents.
its not so much about intelligence, although at extremes it plays a part, if doing the upbringing, but its more about care levels and love and leadership. its not guaranteed to produce a level headed child or adult but statistically, problem kids more often come from problem parents.
willbewill
07-01-2019, 19:06
As for pensions, I learned fairly early in life (in my mid-20s) that paying into pension plans (either through work or privately) was largely a mug's game, as the main beneficiaries are almost always the companies making interest on your earnings!:doh:
And if the pension company or business you've been paying funds into for years goes bust, before you retire or the policy is due to pay out - what happens to all the money you've invested...?
No, I decided early on that the best way of securing my future was to utilise my selling/entrepreneurial skills, and accrue assets through working hard and/or smart (largely from starting my own business, which fortunately was a success), which in future would have sufficient value to help fund my old age. That's why, among other things, I dabbled in the property market, by judiciously investing money into it, using some of the profits I'd made from my business.
Therefore, my 'pension' now (and Del's) is tied up in bricks and mortar: properties we bought at a good price when the market was less buoyant, have gained significant value since and now own outright, thus can sell when necessary.
My advice? Try and have a plan that secures your future, but which doesn't rely on the success or survival of outside influences. Too many folks are born with skillsets that are never properly utilised, or to earn them a living, by turning what they're good at into cash, so years of their lives are wasted working for companies and making others money instead!
Always try and be as self-sufficient and in control of your life and destiny as possible, as more often than not it pays dividends:cool:
Marco.
My way was different. For most of my working life I had a job that I loved, thankfully it was as a civil servant with a final salary pension scheme. So when the job morphed and became stressful and no fun I walked away with a reasonable, but not full, pension at 59 - over 5 years ago. I do a bit of part time self employed work when I feel like it on my own terms which helps pay for holidays etc.
But those schemes are no longer available.
Pigmy Pony
07-01-2019, 19:39
its not so much about intelligence, although at extremes it plays a part, if doing the upbringing, but its more about care levels and love and leadership. its not guaranteed to produce a level headed child or adult but statistically, problem kids more often come from problem parents.
:exactly: As usual, Grant says what I'm thinking, but without the waffle :) I thinks kids during their formative years take their cues from their parents, and see the way they live as 'normal', whatever that may be. There, I'm waffling again.
My way was different. For most of my working life I had a job that I loved, thankfully it was as a civil servant with a final salary pension scheme. So when the job morphed and became stressful and no fun I walked away with a reasonable, but not full, pension at 59 - over 5 years ago. I do a bit of part time self employed work when I feel like it on my own terms which helps pay for holidays etc.
But those schemes are no longer available.
Cool, and I'm glad it worked out well for you, Will:)
I was semi-retired at 45 (and still am now at 53), which was possible as I can work from home and still earn enough from my picture framing business, which I'd been running full-time up until then, by cherry-picking profitable/worthwhile jobs, such as hotel contracts, to keep the wolves from the door, but not be burdened by the demands of a full-time job, whilst funds also come in from the properties we rent out, and Del's salary as an English lecturer.
It means I can do my bit, whilst also having time to look after the house, feed the cats, do all the cleaning and any other jobs required, maintain the garden, help run the forum/answer numerous emails and PMs in the process, and have a nice cup of tea and/or something to eat, ready for Del coming home (to a nice warm, clean house)!
It's an arrangement that suits both of us, as the bills get paid and we have a decent standard of living, plus still time to enjoy each other's company:cool:
I wouldn't swap that for any amount of extra income, which meant longer working hours and us seeing less of each other, likely increasing our respective stress levels and reducing our overall well-being.
Marco.
Covenant
07-01-2019, 20:34
I thought my wife would get bored when she retired from teaching two years ago. Boy was I wrong. She plays badminton three times a week, joined a walking group, goes off to see plays, runs a book club etc. Most of it has been done through the local U3A (University of the third age). Says she has lots of things planned for me when I retire........
willbewill
07-01-2019, 20:36
It's an arrangement that suits both of us, as the bills get paid and we have a decent standard of living, plus still time to enjoy each other's company:cool:
I wouldn't swap what we've got now for any amount of extra money, which meant we would see each other less, increase our respective stress levels and reduce our overall well-being.
Marco.
Exactly, that's what it's all about. I also love the fact that we can travel when we want to and take advantage of cheap flights. The only tie we had was our Jack Russell who sadly died quite recently.
Means we can visit our youngest daughter in Florida more often, she married an American last summer, we fly out again tomorrow. Plus spend time with our other children and grandchildren. Living in North Gower helps as well :-)
I thought my wife would get bored when she retired from teaching two years ago. Boy was I wrong. She plays badminton three times a week, joined a walking group, goes off to see plays, runs a book club etc. Most of it has been done through the local U3A (University of the third age). Says she has lots of things planned for me when I retire........
Lol - I bet she has!:D
I doubt that Del will get bored either when she retires from teaching, as she'll have loads of interests and hobbies to keep her busy. Some of the planned projects she has for the garden alone will be the equivalent of a full-time job! Plus, we plan on going on lots of holidays abroad to places we've been promising to visit for years....
I think that's one of the keys to a happy retirement: ensuring that your days are filled with something fun and rewarding:cool:
Marco.
Exactly, that's what it's all about. I also love the fact that we can travel when we want to and take advantage of cheap flights. The only tie we had was our Jack Russell who sadly died quite recently.
Means we can visit our youngest daughter in Florida more often, she married an American last summer, we fly out again tomorrow. Plus spend time with our other children and grandchildren. Living in North Gower helps as well :-)
Indeed - and well away from all the 'headless chickens' running around in a pointless rat race!;)
Like you say, the key thing is now being in full control of your day, and spending it as YOU wish, which allows you to do the nice things you mention. What price can you put on that?
I also think that the problem is some couples aren't that close, so there's no advantage in spending time together when retired - hence why they become workaholics instead!:doh:
Sorry about the pooch, btw. That must've been a blow.
Marco.
willbewill
07-01-2019, 21:48
Sorry about the pooch, btw. That must've been a blow.
Marco.
Thanks, yes it Knocked me for six, 2018 was a roller coaster of a year in which my mother also passed away.
It's the first time in over 30 years that we haven't got a dog and over 40 with no pets.
RobbieGong
07-01-2019, 22:22
Cool, and I'm glad it worked out well for you, Will:)
I was semi-retired at 45 (and still am), which was possible as I can work from home and still earn enough from my picture framing business, which I'd been running full-time up until then, by cherry-picking profitable/worthwhile jobs, such as hotel contracts, to keep the wolves from the door, but not be burdened by the demands of a full-time job, whilst funds also come in from the properties we rent out, and Del's salary as an English lecturer.
It means I can do my bit, whilst also having time to look after the house, feed the cats, do all the cleaning and any other jobs required, maintain the garden, help run the forum/answer numerous emails and PMs in the process, and have a nice cup of tea and/or something to eat, ready for Del coming home (to a nice warm, clean house)!
It's an arrangement that suits both of us, as the bills get paid and we have a decent standard of living, plus still time to enjoy each other's company:cool:
I wouldn't swap that for any amount of extra income, which meant longer working hours and us seeing less of each other, likely increasing our respective stress levels and reducing our overall well-being.
Marco.
Enviable position to be in and good on you both because you've set about putting things in place, planted the seeds.
A level of risk does have to be taken but hence forth cometh the reaping and rewards ;) :thumbsup:
dave2010
07-01-2019, 22:39
Sorry, I would say the Holocaust was pretty effective. Don't confuse talk about eugenics with being anti PC!I can't believe the point needs to be made here! AgainI don't really want to get into that. By eugenics I intended to mean selective breeding for humans, but of course that can be done in more than one way. The cruel way is to let everyone breed, then cull the ones which don't match the "requirements". Less cruel is to encourage people with talent to breed together, in the hope that the progeny will have even greater talents. Selective breeding under human control does work in both animals and plants, and apparently has been done since well before Roman times. However, my point is that although statistically (that word creeps in again) there is a chance of getting "improvements", there are no guarantees - offspring can seem pretty random - though identical twins are interesting, and may have almost identical lives and characteristics even if they live completely separate lives.
Re parenting - yes it can make a difference - hopefully a good and big one - but again it's not that easy. There are no "it'll always work" formulae. At some stage in their lives most kids need to rebel, so should parents try to be accommodating and reason, or give the kids something to fight against? Too little control can be damaging, but so can too much control. Sometimes all one can do is hope that "things will turn out right in the end".
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 22:55
However you try and disguise it, Eugenics is the attempt to legitimise through science the heinous practice of determining who gets to reproduce. If you don't get that you have problems!
I don't really want to get into that. By eugenics I intended to mean selective breeding for humans, but of course that can be done in more than one way. The cruel way is to let everyone breed, then cull the ones which don't match the "requirements". Less cruel is to encourage people with talent to breed together, in the hope that the progeny will have even greater talents. Selective breeding under human control does work in both animals and plants, and apparently has been done since well before Roman times. However, my point is that although statistically (that word creeps in again) there is a chance of getting "improvements", there are no guarantees - offspring can seem pretty random - though identical twins are interesting, and may have almost identical lives and characteristics even if they live completely separate lives.
Re parenting - yes it can make a difference - hopefully a good and big one - but again it's not that easy. There are no "it'll always work" formulae. At some stage in their lives most kids need to rebel, so should parents try to be accommodating and reason, or give the kids something to fight against? Too little control can be damaging, but so can too much control. Sometimes all one can do is hope that "things will turn out right in the end".
walpurgis
07-01-2019, 23:06
This thread is heading towards a point where moderation is likely to be needed.
Sherwood
07-01-2019, 23:10
This thread is heading towards a point where moderation is likely to be needed.
Some fucking sanity more like. Why is Eugenics a go to subject on AOS?
Pigmy Pony
08-01-2019, 00:13
We have a Eugenics near us. Have some nice stuff, but Currys is cheaper.
Some fucking sanity more like. Why is Eugenics a go to subject on AOS?
WTF !!!!
Eugenics is evil stuff - FULL STOP
There's a difference between discussing something and actually doing it. As far as I know AoS does not currently have an operational eugenics program.
Objecting to a controversial subject being discussed is just another form of political correctness and, by extension, thought control.
Enviable position to be in and good on you both because you've set about putting things in place, planted the seeds.
A level of risk does have to be taken but hence forth cometh the reaping and rewards ;) :thumbsup:
Cheers, mate. You've got to take some risks in life, if you want to achieve anything worthwhile, as continually playing safe only gets you so far. "Planting seeds", as you put it, is also very important, especially when you're young, as so often the tendency is to 'worry about the future later', and put off saving or making any long-term plans.
However, as we all know, time flies, and sooner than you think, being 25 becomes 45, then 55, and with no proper plan in place for the future and simply muddling along in a daily rut, when the time comes to retire, and with no longer any regular income, you won't have much to look forward to but the pittance of a state pension!
It's no fun being poor, at any age, but especially when you're old. If you're at all smart, with a bit of gumption, hard work, common sense and some luck, you won't be.
Marco.
Thanks, yes it Knocked me for six, 2018 was a roller coaster of a year in which my mother also passed away.
It's the first time in over 30 years that we haven't got a dog and over 40 with no pets.
Wow, that's a tough one to take, and I'm sorry to hear that. I hope that 2019 brings you rather more joy, peace, good health and happiness.
Marco.
There's a difference between discussing something and actually doing it. As far as I know AoS does not currently have an operational eugenics program.
You obviously didn't get that memo.
I don't really want to get into that. By eugenics I intended to mean selective breeding for humans, but of course that can be done in more than one way. The cruel way is to let everyone breed, then cull the ones which don't match the "requirements". Less cruel is to encourage people with talent to breed together, in the hope that the progeny will have even greater talents.
You missed out the word 'forlorn' before the word 'hope'.
walpurgis
08-01-2019, 09:40
Thanks, yes it Knocked me for six, 2018 was a roller coaster of a year in which my mother also passed away.
It's the first time in over 30 years that we haven't got a dog and over 40 with no pets.
I sympathise. We lost the wife's mother and my adored dog died within days of each other recently.
walpurgis
08-01-2019, 09:54
There's a difference between discussing something and actually doing it. As far as I know AoS does not currently have an operational eugenics program.
Objecting to a controversial subject being discussed is just another form of political correctness and, by extension, thought control.
Yes. It's not good when somebody decides what others can discuss and becomes self appointed arbiter. If they don't like a topic, best they move on. I'm not aware that anybody has advocated anything offensive or illegal.
rmcin626
08-01-2019, 10:03
Just to go back to the original subject, I will be retiring slightly early in coming weeks, and hopefully the fact that my Mum celebrated her 91st birthday will be good sign and equally important the calculations made by myself and my financial advisor are accurate.
Ah, 'financial advisors'... I'm not a big fan of those either, as they're primarily focussed on 'advising' you on what's best for boosting their bank balance!;)
I advise myself, or will consult people close to me I trust with the necessary knowledge.
Marco.
Objecting to a controversial subject being discussed is just another form of political correctness and, by extension, thought control.
Rubbish ... but each to their own :)
dave2010
08-01-2019, 12:45
Just to go back to the original subject, I will be retiring slightly early in coming weeks, and hopefully the fact that my Mum celebrated her 91st birthday will be good sign and equally important the calculations made by myself and my financial advisor are accurate.Good luck with that - retirement I mean. Hopefully you'll enjoy it, and have enough to live on.
I was once given a suggested formula for one's own survival. I think it went something like take the ages of your grandparents at death, add them up, add 40, and then divide by 4. The actual formula I was told was expressed slightly differently, but algebraically the same. The 40 was supposed to represent improvements in health etc. over a period of say 70 years - dividing by 4 brings it back to 10 - so "most" people now live 10 years longer than people a couple of generations back. Unfortunately in my case this formula is let down by one of my grandmothers, who I think died way before I came along. Similarly mrs dave has been let down by one of her grandfathers who also was inconsiderate enough to die young.
The good thing is that to some very limited extent people are like light bulbs. The longer they keep going, the more likely they are to live longer - though of course the remaining time will probably be shorter :( - is this <sadface>?)
If I've remembered the formula correctly (which may be doubtful) I'll hopefully make it to 78. Oooh that's scary. I hope to do better than that.
Good luck with that - retirement I mean. Hopefully you'll enjoy it, and have enough to live on.
I was once given a suggested formula for one's own survival. I think it went something like take the ages of your grandparents at death, add them up, add 40, and then divide by 4. The actual formula I was told was expressed slightly differently, but algebraically the same. The 40 was supposed to represent improvements in health etc. over a period of say 70 years - dividing by 4 brings it back to 10 - so "most" people now live 10 years longer than people a couple of generations back. Unfortunately in my case this formula is let down by one of my grandmothers, who I think died way before I came along. Similarly mrs dave has been let down by one of her grandfathers who also was inconsiderate enough to die young.
The good thing is that to some very limited extent people are like light bulbs. The longer they keep going, the more likely they are to live longer - though of course the remaining time will probably be shorter :( - is this <sadface>?)
If I've remembered the formula correctly (which may be doubtful) I'll hopefully make it to 78. Oooh that's scary. I hope to do better than that.
that will put me in my 80's... i wish :eyebrows:
dave2010
08-01-2019, 12:54
A quick follow up to previous couple of messages. If anyone is reaching State retirement age, it may be worth considering options for taking the state pension. For various reasons I wanted to defer mine and I calculated that deferring for one or two years would have been optimal. Unfortunately (or was it? ...) I left things longer than that, so it looked as though I was going to have to wait until I get to be around 100 to break even. However, when I did finally get round to it, I was able to take a lump sum which was very useful for a large purchase which would otherwise have been quite difficult to do.
Each person's circumstances are different. If you need the money, then taking the state pension as soon as possible makes sense, but if you don't then deferring can be helpful. When you take the SP you still have the option of taking a larger monthly payment or a lump sum.
Do your own assessment of your needs, and don't let financial advisers sway you too much. Also don't let the DWP rush you into taking the money early if you think deferring will help. However DWP will probably forget about you if you don't take the pension at the first opportunity, so it's best to keep on top of this and periodically check. As it happened things seem to have worked out OK for us, but that wasn't a given.
Ah - another thing which may not be generally known, and I only found out about this after talking to a DWP agent - it may even be possible to take the SP, then subsequently suspend it to get the benefit of a deferral - but for most people I think it's going to make sense to think about a single deferral period, from the date of first eligbility.
Pigmy Pony
08-01-2019, 12:58
These statistics are only of any use when sampled from a large enough population, and the closer to home you get the more unreliable they become.
My dad turned 80 last August and still works three or four days a week (cherry-picking the nicer jobs) because he loves what he does, and it keeps him in touch with suppliers/customers/friends. Mum had a major stroke at 58 and died aged 63. Where does that put me as a 61 year old?
dave2010
08-01-2019, 13:02
that will put me in my 80's... i wish :eyebrows:Very best wishes - I hope you make it.
Dave
dave2010
08-01-2019, 13:04
These statistics are only of any use when sampled from a large enough population, and the closer to home you get the more unreliable they become.
My dad turned 80 last August and still works three or four days a week (cherry-picking the nicer jobs) because he loves what he does, and it keeps him in touch with suppliers/customers/friends. Mum had a major stroke at 58 and died aged 63. Where does that put me as a 61 year old?I recall that was why the fomula I mentioned specifically mentioned grandparents - more reliable for the predictions I was told. There may be variants which include parents' ages as well, but they will only work when the data is known - which at the time I was told of the formula did not apply to me as both my parents were still alive.
. Where does that put me as a 61 year old?
On borrowed time?
Pigmy Pony
08-01-2019, 13:16
A quick follow up to previous couple of messages. If anyone is reaching State retirement age, it may be worth considering options for taking the state pension. For various reasons I wanted to defer mine and I calculated that deferring for one or two years would have been optimal. Unfortunately (or was it? ...) I left things longer than that, so it looked as though I was going to have to wait until I get to be around 100 to break even. However, when I did finally get round to it, I was able to take a lump sum which was very useful for a large purchase which would otherwise have been quite difficult to do.
Each person's circumstances are different. If you need the money, then taking the state pension as soon as possible makes sense, but if you don't then deferring can be helpful. When you take the SP you still have the option of taking a larger monthly payment or a lump sum.
Do your own assessment of your needs, and don't let financial advisers sway you too much. Also don't let the DWP rush you into taking the money early if you think deferring will help. However DWP will probably forget about you if you don't take the pension at the first opportunity, so it's best to keep on top of this and periodically check. As it happened things seem to have worked out OK for us, but that wasn't a given.
Ah - another thing which may not be generally known, and I only found out about this after talking to a DWP agent - it may even be possible to take the SP, then subsequently suspend it to get the benefit of a deferral - but for most people I think it's going to make sense to think about a single deferral period, from the date of first eligbility.
Very interesting Dave, I was not aware of this! As things stand I am physically able to do my work (and long may it continue). So it may make sense for me to carry on until it becomes difficult (which hopefully will be beyond retirement age) and by deferring pension I could then receive larger payments when I come to need them.
Reading this back it sounds a bit sad, but my job is quite physical, and when I become unable to continue, it doesn't mean I'll be too knackered to enjoy life the same as mere mortals :D
rmcin626
08-01-2019, 13:19
Ah, 'financial advisors'... I'm not a big fan of those either, as they're primarily focussed on 'advising' you on what's best for boosting their bank balance!;)
I advise myself, or will consult people close to me I trust with the necessary knowledge.
Marco.
Having worked in Finance for awhile I am pretty good with numbers but unfortunately there are a few things that have to use a Financial Advisor by law when it comes to pensions. Luckily his numbers and mine are pretty close.
These statistics are only of any use when sampled from a large enough population, and the closer to home you get the more unreliable they become.
My dad turned 80 last August and still works three or four days a week (cherry-picking the nicer jobs) because he loves what he does, and it keeps him in touch with suppliers/customers/friends. Mum had a major stroke at 58 and died aged 63. Where does that put me as a 61 year old?
My dad had a stroke at 66 ,just after he semi retired , but my Mum is still alive and 85.
I dont expect to retire any day soon , mind you ,hip trouble and arthritis in my hands and feet (working on the farm in the cold every day does not help ) although cicumstances may put a spanner in the works!!
I am 61 too PP:rolleyes:
Pigmy Pony
08-01-2019, 13:23
On borrowed time?
Oh I'm on borrowed time alright, and the APR is ridiculous. When the bailiff (grim reaper) comes round, I'll be hiding behind the sofa.
Pigmy Pony
08-01-2019, 13:36
My dad had a stroke at 66 ,just after he semi retired , but my Mum is still alive and 85.
I dont expect to retire any day soon , mind you ,hip trouble and arthritis in my hands and feet (working on the farm in the cold every day does not help ) although cicumstances may put a spanner in the works!!
I am 61 too PP:rolleyes:
Simple solution for your arthritis Anto - swap your farm for a cattle ranch in Texas. Yee-hah!
A quick follow up to previous couple of messages. If anyone is reaching State retirement age, it may be worth considering options for taking the state pension. For various reasons I wanted to defer mine and I calculated that deferring for one or two years would have been optimal. Unfortunately (or was it? ...) I left things longer than that, so it looked as though I was going to have to wait until I get to be around 100 to break even. However, when I did finally get round to it, I was able to take a lump sum which was very useful for a large purchase which would otherwise have been quite difficult to do.
Each person's circumstances are different. If you need the money, then taking the state pension as soon as possible makes sense, but if you don't then deferring can be helpful. When you take the SP you still have the option of taking a larger monthly payment or a lump sum.
Do your own assessment of your needs, and don't let financial advisers sway you too much. Also don't let the DWP rush you into taking the money early if you think deferring will help. However DWP will probably forget about you if you don't take the pension at the first opportunity, so it's best to keep on top of this and periodically check. As it happened things seem to have worked out OK for us, but that wasn't a given.
Ah - another thing which may not be generally known, and I only found out about this after talking to a DWP agent - it may even be possible to take the SP, then subsequently suspend it to get the benefit of a deferral - but for most people I think it's going to make sense to think about a single deferral period, from the date of first eligbility.
only going to have sp so tough times ahead again.
I recall that was why the fomula I mentioned specifically mentioned grandparents - more reliable for the predictions I was told. There may be variants which include parents' ages as well, but they will only work when the data is known - which at the time I was told of the formula did not apply to me as both my parents were still alive.
3 of my grandparents were 78 or older when they died(decent ages considering 2 fought and were injured in great war;1 gassed too); one was fairly young(50's). mother was 86, dad 56. Ive beat him so doing well there lol.
dave2010
08-01-2019, 14:17
Very interesting Dave, I was not aware of this! Government departments are sometimes more than a bit forgetful when it comes to letting people know what they might do, or not. It's probably easiest for the people working in DWP to assume that everyone will take their SP as and when they become entitled, and its too "complicated" for them to deal with people who want to do anything else - so they put those people on the back burner, and then (perhaps) forget about them until they resurface - or, relevant to this thread, pass over. There are departments which are supposed to deal with deferred pensions, but in all the time that mine was deferred (more than 4 years) I don't recall a single follow up mail, email or phone call. Perhaps those departments are overstretched, underfunded, short staffed etc., or maybe their computer systems don't keep up.
Other benefits which people aren't always aware of are things like Attendance Allowance for relatives. In the case of my f-in-law and m-in-law, my m-in-law became seriously incapacitated, which was causing great problems for her husband, mostly physical and practical. It was only a chance visit by me to my own doctor about something completely different which alerted us. My doctor said something like "but of course he's getting Attendance Allowance for carers ..." which resulted in a blank stare from me. On investigation it turned out that he was entitled to support to look after his wife, which was a considerable help, but his own GP hadn't mentioned that to him. Some departments work on the assumption that if you don't know you won't apply, and thus won't be a drain on the "system".
Also such benefits can often not be back dated, so the longer you are kept in the dark the better!
Actually it's not only the money - in the case of my f-in-law he probably could have afforded to pay for the carers himself, and after he died there was a sizeable tax bill, but he would not have been able to organise the carers without help, so getting some support from "the system" was a great help.
Oh I'm on borrowed time alright, and the APR is ridiculous. When the bailiff (grim reaper) comes round, I'll be hiding behind the sofa.
If big Dougie calls, tell him I've got his leather shorts ironed.
Marco.
dave2010
08-01-2019, 14:22
3 of my grandparents were 78 or older when they died(decent ages considering 2 fought and were injured in great war;1 gassed too); one was fairly young(50's). mother was 86, dad 56. Ive beat him so doing well there lol.Applying the original formula you should be good till 81 - I hope you get past that.
I once opened the door to a woman selling/offering flowers who looked at me and said - "You'll live to be 93." If I make it to 94 she was wrong!
If I don't, then I won't know.
Government departments are sometimes more than a bit forgetful when it comes to letting people know what they might do, or not. It's probably easiest for the people working in DWP to assume that everyone will take their SP as and when they become entitled, and its too "complicated" for them to deal with people who want to do anything else - so they put those people on the back burner, and then (perhaps) forget about them until they resurface - or, relevant to this thread, pass over. There are departments which are supposed to deal with deferred pensions, but in all the time that mine was deferred (more than 4 years) I don't recall a single follow up mail, email or phone call. Perhaps those departments are overstretched, underfunded, short staffed etc., or maybe their computer systems don't keep up.
Other benefits which people aren't always aware of are things like Attendance Allowance for relatives. In the case of my f-in-law and m-in-law, my m-in-law became seriously incapacitated, which was causing great problems for her husband, mostly physical and practical. It was only a chance visit by me to my own doctor about something completely different which alerted us. My doctor said something like "but of course he's getting Attendance Allowance for carers ..." which resulted in a blank stare from me. On investigation it turned out that he was entitled to support to look after his wife, which was a considerable help, but his own GP hadn't mentioned that to him. Some departments work on the assumption that if you don't know you won't apply, and thus won't be a drain on the "system".
Also such benefits can often not be back dated, so the longer you are kept in the dark the better!
Actually it's not only the money - in the case of my f-in-law he probably could have afforded to pay for the carers himself, and after he died there was a sizeable tax bill, but he would not have been able to organise the carers without help, so getting some support from "the system" was a great help.
i got carers in to help with the wife but they were not a lot of good tbh. helped a bit but i still did 90%+. I get financial help now for myself but I didnt know I was eligible before so missed out on a lot. only when i had run out of stuff to sell was it brought to my attention. Then initially they made it difficult for me by having 2 different deparmtents trying to assess me separately and expecting me to be able to get myself all the way to the city by myself... My doc helped as did my neighbours in convincing them i couldnt travel that far.(still cant tbh) but at least i can get to shops etc without having to spend 3 days in bed after it. Hope to get further; just take it a bit at a time, but if i had known then i would probably be healthier now
Applying the original formula you should be good till 81 - I hope you get past that.
I once opened the door to a woman selling/offering flowers who looked at me and said - "You'll live to be 93." If I make it to 94 she was wrong!
If I don't, then I won't know.
no real chance of that, but if i get another 10 i will be happy. a woman told my wife she'd live til 84; she made 56, poor soul.
walpurgis
08-01-2019, 14:59
that will put me in my 80's... i wish :eyebrows:
The various formulae for calculating longevity go out of the window where I'm concerned.
My maternal grand father died before he was forty (never recovered from gassing in WW1). Uncle died at 44, doing what he saw as a good deed cost his life, an African immigrant he employed gave him TB. Dad died at 54, too much booze and a thousand fags a day! I'm now over 70 and my brother is 80.
Minstrel SE
09-01-2019, 02:31
I can claim my private pension this year. The state pension age is far too high. My uncle carefully planned for retirement at 50 and lets face it that nobody wants to work until the bitter end. The sad thing is my uncle had dementia at the age of 70 and died shortly after that
I have just finished a crappy MW job which would have been ok If I hadnt felt constuctively dismissed by vile management. My thoughts on middle age is that it becomes a no mans land if you havent made something of your life.
There is a lot of bollocks talked about fulfillment through work. This life is a rat race for most people and we are controlled by people with the real money and power. I would be quite happy to pluck grapes with a beautiful woman by my side. I wouldnt get bored of doing nothing much, I can assure you :)
I have some savings but not enough to give me any real sense of freedom. Most people work themselves into the ground in jobs they dont like. Enjoying my free time is more important to me
Im going sky diving this year and I promised Molly I would swim with dolphins. I cant think much beyond the next month or so. My last job had me stress smoking which Ive knocked on the head now.
Life is short. I tend to wonder if I will make it to the state pension :)
Would quite like to pluck the fruits of a juicy sort myself. lol.
Yup it can be difficult if by mid 40's your still struggling to get somewhere good. But with higher retirement ages it's worth retraining or going to higher education. Take 4years out and get a skill set
dave2010
09-01-2019, 08:32
Yup it can be difficult if by mid 40's your still struggling to get somewhere good. But with higher retirement ages it's worth retraining or going to higher education. Take 4years out and get a skill setThe problem is working out what retraining to do, what skill set to acquire, and getting the funds to pay for the retraining. Does that ever work? One of my relatives (50+) studied law for a couple of years, but after that, she decided it wasn't going to work for her, and her opinion of the law went down considerably. However she has other skills, and is not in a bad financial position as far as I know.
Some people have greater problems, and really ought to be able to make it by retraining, but it's hard for them to find the best match to their abilities.
I'm not sure if there are good careers advisers for people of advancing age, who really can help people to find satisfactory jobs, or to retrain for such.
Some people use their hobby skills as a way to make extra money, and it may lead to more. For example, some people who are keen on photography offer services to do photo retouching. I think a certain amount of determination is needed for people to make a living out of things they like doing, however, and another problem is that if economic conditions are generally not so good, other people are unwilling to pay for services which they might do in better times.
If there's something one is really good at, then with luck people will pay. I do know people who are really struggling, and it's hard for them to see a way out, a better way, and I really can't help them much.
The way I see it none of us is struggling compared to some bloke living on the street in Calcutta, so we should all thank our lucky stars and make the best of what we have even if it isn't perfect.
Perspective is everything.
Some people use their hobby skills as a way to make extra money, and it may lead to more. For example, some people who are keen on photography offer services to do photo retouching. I think a certain amount of determination is needed for people to make a living out of things they like doing...
Yup; that's it in a nutshell. And either you've got the required drive and determination or not. Fortunately, I was always the driven type (an achiever), and determined to make a success of my life, not just be one of the rats in the rat race, and so I set out to achieve my most important goals: to be as self-sufficient and in control of my future as possible - as soon as possible!
Leaving a well-paid sales job, with a company car and secure salary, to go self-employed and start my own business (doing the same thing, but with no such secure salary) was a big risk, especially at that time, as I had a considerable mortgage to pay and Del wasn't earning much. However, I was confident that I could make a success of it, and in the end I did. We went through some difficult times before that though, where we really struggled financially.
To pay the bills, I often had to work 16-hour days, and sometimes through the night too [and that took its toll in all sorts of ways], but through had work, diligence and a little entrepreneurial flair, not to mention some luck (although I'm a great believer in that often you make your own luck), I built up a very good business, the proceeds from which were significantly responsible for me being able to become semi-retired at 45, and still now at 53.
Would I swap having more money, as I did then, but needing to work ridiculously long hours to earn it, with now, where I have less money, although enough to be comfortable, but the time and freedom to do what I want, and also take care of the household chores, which helps Del cope with her job [as she doesn't have to think about any of that], and which she loves, but that is very demanding, as teaching is these days - and most importantly allows us to spend more time together?
NOT A CHANCE!!:nono:
Yet, I suspect that some would, as having more money would be most important.... Each to their own, of course, but it's a very different mentality from ours.
For me, working was always a means to an end, not an end in itself, as there are MUCH more important things in life than work or money. I wasn't particularly happy back then, when I earned rather more but was always too tired to enjoy it, but I am now, and so is Del. The important thing is that we now have more TIME to enjoy each other's company, instead of being like ships in the night. For us, *that* is ultimately what matters most!:)
If you've got a natural aptitude/flair or skill for something, and are confident that you could earn a living from it, then my advice is GO FOR IT, as you might never get another chance to do something you enjoy, and that could set you up for life. Take a risk and live your dreams - chances are, in the long run, you'll have more to gain than lose...
Bottom line? Don't sit and wait for something to happen - get off your butt and MAKE it happen!:cool:
Marco.
spendorman
09-01-2019, 15:06
For various reasons I retired at 53, I have no regrets, I'm only half mad, if I continued working I reckon that I would be completely mad. No I'm not being flippant, reckon I would have had a serous mental breakdown if I continued. Work pressure was extremely high.
A quick follow up to previous couple of messages. If anyone is reaching State retirement age, it may be worth considering options for taking the state pension. For various reasons I wanted to defer mine and I calculated that deferring for one or two years would have been optimal. Unfortunately (or was it? ...) I left things longer than that, so it looked as though I was going to have to wait until I get to be around 100 to break even. However, when I did finally get round to it, I was able to take a lump sum which was very useful for a large purchase which would otherwise have been quite difficult to do.
Each person's circumstances are different. If you need the money, then taking the state pension as soon as possible makes sense, but if you don't then deferring can be helpful. When you take the SP you still have the option of taking a larger monthly payment or a lump sum.
Having checked for my own SP, it looks like the lump sum option is not available for those reaching SP age after 6 April 2016, but deferral is:
https://www.gov.uk/deferring-state-pension/what-you-get
If you reach State Pension age on or after 6 April 2016
Your State Pension will increase every week you defer, as long as you defer for at least 9 weeks.
Your State Pension increases by the equivalent of 1% for every 9 weeks you defer. This works out as just under 5.8% for every full year.
The extra amount is paid with your regular State Pension payment.
Example:
You get £164.35 a week (the full new State Pension). This works out as £8,546.20 a year.
By deferring for one year, you’ll get an extra £493 a year (just under 5.8% of £8,546.20).
This example assumes there is no annual increase in the State Pension. If there is an annual increase, the amount you could get could be larger.
If you reached State Pension age before 6 April 2016
You can usually take your extra State Pension as either:
higher weekly payments
a one-off lump sum
When you claim your deferred State Pension, you’ll get a letter asking how you want to take your extra pension. You’ll have 3 months from receiving that letter to decide.
Higher weekly payments
Your State Pension will increase every week you defer, as long as you defer for at least 5 weeks.
Your State Pension increases by the equivalent of 1% for every 5 weeks you defer. This works out as 10.4% for every full year.
The extra amount is paid with your regular State Pension payment.
The way I see it none of us is struggling compared to some bloke living on the street in Calcutta, so we should all thank our lucky stars and make the best of what we have even if it isn't perfect.
Perspective is everything.
Indeed, but there are also plenty of blokes living on the streets here in the UK (the true statistics for which the government hides), and which in an affluent country such as this is inexcusable, never mind Calcutta - and it's arguably worse for them living rough, because of our much colder and wetter climate.
Marco.
They still get free healthcare here though, and there's various support services available. In India there's nothing and you just die in the gutter.
For various reasons I retired at 53, I have no regrets, I'm only half mad, if I continued working I reckon that I would be completely mad. No I'm not being flippant, reckon I would have had a serous mental breakdown if I continued. Work pressure was extremely high.
And that's the crux of the matter, Alex. Too many folks bravely struggle on, to the detriment of their health, and ultimately their lives! Looks like you got out just in time...
As long as you could still feed yourself, pay the bills and keep a roof over your head, and live in relative comfort, then my advice (if you're over 50, and unhappy in a job with more pressure than you can handle), is when it feels right for YOU, retire and enjoy the remainder of your life as stress-free and happy as possible.
That is, of course, as long as your job isn't your LIFE, or you're chained to a B.W.F.H, who insists on being kept in the style she's become accustomed to....;)
Marco.
They still get free healthcare here though, and there's various support services available. In India there's nothing and you just die in the gutter.
Sure, but that doesn't make the homeless situation here any less tragic, so spare a thought too for our own citizens, who have to sleep rough every night, not just those in foreign lands.
Marco.
Sure, but that doesn't make the homeless situation here any less tragic, so spare a thought too for our own citizens, who have to sleep rough every night, not just those in foreign lands.
Marco.
I don't worry about people I don't know. Have known a few people who were living rough but they were druggies so nothing I could do for them. Let them stop in your house and when you get back from work there's nothing left.
Well, that's probably why I'm a Christian, and you're not;)
Marco.
dave2010
09-01-2019, 17:03
Having checked for my own SP, it looks like the lump sum option is not available for those reaching SP age after 6 April 2016, but deferral is:
https://www.gov.uk/deferring-state-pension/what-you-get
If you reach State Pension age on or after 6 April 2016
Your State Pension will increase every week you defer, as long as you defer for at least 9 weeks.
Your State Pension increases by the equivalent of 1% for every 9 weeks you defer. This works out as just under 5.8% for every full year.
The extra amount is paid with your regular State Pension payment.
Example:
You get £164.35 a week (the full new State Pension). This works out as £8,546.20 a year.
By deferring for one year, you’ll get an extra £493 a year (just under 5.8% of £8,546.20).
This example assumes there is no annual increase in the State Pension. If there is an annual increase, the amount you could get could be larger.
If you reached State Pension age before 6 April 2016
You can usually take your extra State Pension as either:
higher weekly payments
a one-off lump sum
When you claim your deferred State Pension, you’ll get a letter asking how you want to take your extra pension. You’ll have 3 months from receiving that letter to decide.
Higher weekly payments
Your State Pension will increase every week you defer, as long as you defer for at least 5 weeks.
Your State Pension increases by the equivalent of 1% for every 5 weeks you defer. This works out as 10.4% for every full year.
The extra amount is paid with your regular State Pension payment.Thanks for checking up on that. The rules have changed now, and the deal on lump sums is clearly not so good. Also the SP retirement age is going up steadily over the years. The 10% (appprox) year on year increase for deferral could be of interest for a fit person who thinks they can make it to 70 or slightly above that (given that the starting point will shift. Actually it's not going up quite as much as I'd thought - it'll be 66 from 2019, and probably 67 around 2026-2028. So anyone who has a retirement age of 66 can get over 40% increase in SP if they defer until they're 70.
Pity about the change in the lump sum arrangements. That suggests that anyone who can should start putting aside their own funds before they retire, as there won't be any miracle payment to help out with eventualities that come along after retirement.
Some people are, unfortunately, in a real mess and making any headway is going to be hard for them both before retiring and afterwards. I know some who are struggling, and some are really difficult to help. I'm not talking about drug addicts, either.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/pensions/state-pension/changes-to-state-pension-age/
Sherwood
09-01-2019, 17:44
They still get free healthcare here though, and there's various support services available. In India there's nothing and you just die in the gutter.
Sorry. That's complete bullshit. I speak as someone who has worked in International Health for over 35 years and in over 30 countries: including India.
No, India does not have universal coverage as we do, but it does have a huge public and private health care system including a large traditional sector. The quality of a lot of care is poor but even the poor are not left to die in the gutter. In fact, the quality of some of India's health system is so good it is now a destination for medical tourism.
Well, that's probably why I'm a Christian, and you're not;)
Marco.
I'm Catholic, that's pretty much the same basic idea.
Sorry. That's complete bullshit. I speak as someone who has worked in International Health for over 35 years and in over 30 countries: including India.
No, India does not have universal coverage as we do, but it does have a huge public and private health care system including a large traditional sector. The quality of a lot of care is poor but even the poor are not left to die in the gutter. In fact, the quality of some of India's health system is so good it is now a destination for medical tourism.
Well I must be out of date but it certainly used to be like that. And I'm sure if you've got the dosh you can get good medical care pretty much anywhere. But that wasn't the point I was making. The point was however shit we think our lives our here it's nothing in comparison to how a good chunk of the global population have to live.
I'm Catholic, that's pretty much the same basic idea.
Lol... Yes, but I practice my Christian faith, and that means being kind to and considering strangers, no matter where they live.
Marco.
Obviously the answer is just to keep on working in a job that you enjoy and keeps you fulfilled. There are los of things I would like to do if I retire but whether I could afford to or have the energy to do is the question!
I have a colleague who is now over 80 and still working well over 40 hours a week including driving up and down the country for meetings. He really enjoys the work including its social aspects and remains incredibly healthy. I think I would rather emulate him than some much younger ex colleagues who took early retirement and seem to have a hobby of visiting hospitals for tests and doctors for pillls!
Caber
Obviously the answer is just to keep on working in a job that you enjoy and keeps you fulfilled.
True, I have had jobs I enjoyed going to (not many. One in fact and it lasted 2 years). But generally speaking if they are having to pay people to do it then it's probably not fun.
On the other hand I have known people whose jobs I would not do in a million years - coal miners for example. And they all loved it, didn't want to finish.
Obviously the answer is just to keep on working in a job that you enjoy and keeps you fulfilled.
Absolutely, but even still, there's a time to stop and enjoy the money you've (hopefully) managed to save, and indulge in your other passions!;)
I have a colleague who is now over 80 and still working well over 40 hours a week including driving up and down the country for meetings. He really enjoys the work including its social aspects and remains incredibly healthy. I think I would rather emulate him than some much younger ex colleagues who took early retirement and seem to have a hobby of visiting hospitals for tests and doctors for pillls!
Yup, the key is to do whatever works for YOU. As long as he's happy with the situation, and also his family or partner, if applicable, that's all that matters. For some though. who do what he does, that's not the case. It certainly wouldn't work for me, or my wife.
Marco.
Absolutely, but even still, there's a time to stop and enjoy the money you've (hopefully) made and managed to save, and indulge in your other passions!;)
Yup, the key is to do whatever works for YOU. As long as he's happy with the situation, and also his family or partner, if applicable, that's all that matters. For some though. who do what he does, that's not the case. It certainly wouldn't work for me, or my wife.
Marco.
What if you're about thirty, married, two young children and a big mortgage and you're stuck in a job you hate but it's the only job you can do that pays enough to cover all your costs?
I mean it's all very well saying you should do what makes you happy but that just isn't an option for anyone in that boat or similar and there must be quite a few people close to that description. I knew a load of them when I worked in telesales.
What if you're about thirty, married, two young children and a big mortgage and you're stuck in a job you hate but it's the only job you can do that pays enough to cover all your costs?
In the first place, think about whether you can properly afford to have kids and take on a big mortgage, before you commit to it, and don't overstretch yourself or live beyond your means?;)
More seriously (well, a little), you need to reduce your costs as much as possible, and be ruthless about it!
Therefore, if I were in that position, as indeed I've already said, if it were at all possible, I'd downgrade and move to a smaller house and/or a similar one in a less expensive area, and cut down on any unnecessary 'fripperies', such as I've outlined previously (it's amazing how much money we waste these days on bullshit), particularly on technological gadgetry, stupidly expensive and unnecessary Christmas presents/clothes for kids and toys in general.
Sell your car (or one of your cars, if you have more than one) and take a train to work instead, thus saving on fuel, road tax and insurance. Or if you can, walk. Take less holidays or go on cheaper ones. Shop in Aldi or Lidi instead of Sainsburys or Waitrose. Give up any heavy smoking, drinking or gambling. Cook from scratch with cost-effective ingredients, rather than buying expensive convenience meals. Eat out less in restaurants, and/or stop ordering takeaways. Drastically reduce your energy bills.
Essentially, do whatever was necessary to ensure that any money coming in was judiciously spent, and learn to budget properly and live more frugally, rather than thinking your children or you are 'owed' some sort of lifestyle that in reality you simply can't afford.
Marco.
montesquieu
09-01-2019, 19:18
In the first place, think about whether you can properly afford to have kids and take on a big mortgage before you commit to it, and don't overstretch yourself or live beyond your means?;)
More seriously (well, a little), if I were in that position, as indeed I've already said, if it were at all possible, I'd downgrade and move to a smaller house and/or a similar one in a less expensive area, and cut down on any unnecessary 'fripperies', such as I've outlined previously (it's amazing how much money we waste these days on bullshit), particularly stupidly expensive and unnecessary Christmas presents/clothes for kids and toys in general.
Sell your car (or one of your cars, if you have more than one) and take a train to work instead, thus saving on fuel, road tax and insurance. Or if you can, walk. Take less holidays or go on cheaper ones. Shop in Aldi or Lidi instead of Sainsburys. Give up any heavy smoking, drinking or gambling. Cook from scratch, rather than buying expensive convenience meals. Eat out less, and/or stop ordering takeaways.
Essentially, do whatever was necessary to ensure that any money coming in was judiciously spent, and learn to budget properly and live more frugally, rather than thinking your children or you are 'owed' some sort of lifestyle that in reality you simply can't afford.
Marco.
Sorry Marco that's just not a satisfactory answer for many people's situation. I was in exactly that position (not 30 but mid 30s), two kids, a wife who wanted to be at home until both kids were at least well into primary school (about 8 years) before going part-time, yes a mortgage that felt pretty big at the time, yes two cars but cheap ones.
The fact is you want to give those small kids the best you can which in our case meant regular trips to Scotland (and a couple to New Zealand where my wife at the time came from) to see grandparents and extended family. You want to to give them a nice environment to live in when they grow up with access to green things (or the beach in my case), good food, hospitality to their friends and so on. (Though we were pretty anti just pouring money at them and a bit shocked at the plastic crap some of their friends accumulated).
Frankly the only option for me was to bust a gut as hard as I could and get promoted, which I did by means of a part-time MBA, during the process of doing which - with six months off study to write a book in the middle - I almost trebled my salary and moved company twice. Huge amount of luck in that though.
Yes of course budgeting/sensible expenditure but there are just times in life (if you have kids especially) when earning and spending are simply unavoidable and where skinflint/retire early planning is simply inappropriate. You just have to bite the bullet, minimise what spend you can and soak up the rest So what if I have to work a bit harder and longer in life? (right now daughter is in the US as an exchange student but it's BLOODY EXPENSIVE to keep them at uni more generally). However at least I have the satisfaction of helping the kids set themselves up in life. You do what you can and your own comfort is not the priority.
The idea that somehow people who have set themselves up to retire early have been smart when everyone else has been stupid and spendthrift is a bit blinkered if you ask me ... all sorts of things can get in the way, from redundancy to ill health or mental breakdown leading to marriage breakup and so on. Not least the fact that some people make children and not retirement their priority.
Also it's remarkable just how many people who have done well in life and take all the credit themselves for their situation somehow reveal a different story when you dig into the details ... they might have parents who helped with start-up capital, or useful connections, or who knew things about specialist areas that the average person can't access, who give their children a first rate education affordable to the person next door. Un so weiter.
Of course people born into these advantages still have to take and do something with what they are given, but the fact is they do start off with enormous advantages over many other people. This is particularly prevalent in the USA where there's a bizarre attitude that wealth = virtue and that financial struggle is always the result of bad character. Life is not so simple.
Good post, Tom. You raise some interesting points. I'll get to it later, as I have to go out now for a bit:)
However, just to clear this up:
The idea that somehow people who have set themselves up to retire early have been smart when everyone else has been stupid and spendthrift is a bit blinkered if you ask me...
That's certainly NOT what I think (or meant). As you correctly say, life isn't as simple as that.
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
09-01-2019, 19:57
Lol... Yes, but I practice my Christian faith, and that means being kind to and considering strangers, no matter where they live.
Marco.
Well as strangers go, they don't come much stranger than me, and I live in Chorley, so you can see my problem. If you want to be kind to me, I can pm my bank details :)
dave2010
09-01-2019, 21:04
Obviously the answer is just to keep on working in a job that you enjoy and keeps you fulfilled. There are los of things I would like to do if I retire but whether I could afford to or have the energy to do is the question!
It is fairly "obvious", but many people don't have that option. Firstly some don't like their jobs, but they pay the billls, so they keep doing them. Others may like their jobs, but either the job changes (restructuring, or redundancy not necessarily being helpful), or their own circumstances change.
I have a colleague who is now over 80 and still working well over 40 hours a week including driving up and down the country for meetings. He really enjoys the work including its social aspects and remains incredibly healthy. I think I would rather emulate him than some much younger ex colleagues who took early retirement and seem to have a hobby of visiting hospitals for tests and doctors for pillls! I knew (briefly) someone who was over 90 and still working. Not only that but he was still flying across the Atlantic to attend meetings.
Some people are very lucky health wise, but others really can't make much of things after (say) 50. I am now old enough that some of my friends have already "gone ahead" of me - and some were either younger than I was or younger than I am now.
Emulating healthy octogenarians is great if you can do it, but if one's own health is not good there may not be too much to be done. Some things may be "desirable", but not feasible choices. Just try to keep going as long as possible. However - within reason - it's better to keep active even if there are underlying problems, rather than to submit to the difficulties. For myself, I really do need to do more exercise - while I still can.
Well as strangers go, they don't come much stranger than me, and I live in Chorley, so you can see my problem. If you want to be kind to me, I can pm my bank details :)
Haha - you always were 'high maintenance', weren't you darling?:D
Marco.
However - within reason - it's better to keep active even if there are underlying problems, rather than to submit to the difficulties.
Hear, hear. That also applies in other areas. The older generation in general were made of sterner stuff. Try telling the above now to many youngsters, who give in at the slightest tribulation, especially when it comes to finding a job!:doh:
Marco.
willbewill
09-01-2019, 21:53
Going back to the subject of deferring state pension.
If you get full sp of £8.5k and defer for one year you get £500 a year more on your pension. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me, it would take 17 years just to recoup the year you've deferred, so if you're 66 when you reach sp age you need to live to 83 just to break even...or am I missing something?
Going back to the subject of deferring state pension.
If you get full sp of £8.5k and defer for one year you get £500 a year more on your pension. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me, it would take 17 years just to recoup the year you've deferred, so if you're 66 when you reach sp age you need to live to 83 just to break even...or am I missing something?
I tend to agree, take it as soon as you can is my advice when it comes to pensions - obviously if you put it off you may never collect and I don't believe any deferral scheme will be designed in the interests of the pensioner; someone wants you to have more money? I don't think so.
Probably end up givi g most of the extra back as tax anyway
dave2010
09-01-2019, 23:39
Going back to the subject of deferring state pension.
If you get full sp of £8.5k and defer for one year you get £500 a year more on your pension. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me, it would take 17 years just to recoup the year you've deferred, so if you're 66 when you reach sp age you need to live to 83 just to break even...or am I missing something?Very much depends on multiple factors - health, other income, tax status. I think the extra income year on year is effectively compounded. Also what do you mean by break even? If you save/invest any surplus, then you may be right. If it is spent, then it may be better to take a chance on the deferral.
Ok Tom, before going any further, I'd just like to make it clear that my stance is from the point of view of those who are in an unhappy situation, yet continuing to do a job they hate, and where the pressure and stress is immense, simply to live in a big house and drive a fancy car, etc, rather than retire and live more frugally, removing all the pressure in the process, and ultimately feeling happier for it.
It doesn't apply to you or anyone else who is perfectly happy with the situation they're in work-wise, or indeed any other way, so none of the following is directed at you, and just my personal observations:)
Yes of course budgeting/sensible expenditure but there are just times in life (if you have kids especially) when earning and spending are simply unavoidable and where skinflint/retire early planning is simply inappropriate.
"Simply inappropriate" in what way - could you explain?
I understand and appreciate the first bit, to an extent, but I'm sorry I don't buy the 'if you've got kids you're always broke' angle. Or that you have to live like a pauper or work into your dotage, in order to provide for your children's future. It doesn't necessarily have to be like that.
Yes they're obviously going to cost you a significant amount of money and be a big responsibility, but I don't remember my parents being skint after having me - on the contrary they enjoyed a great life, as when I was old enough I remember them taking me with them to all the nice places they liked to go, holidays abroad, restaurants, buying nice clothes, etc.
I never went without either, and my dad was the only one working. He had his own business, but he wasn't rich. He worked hard for what he had, and paid his dues, but was still able to enjoy himself, without getting into debt either, same as both of my uncles when they had kids. They got by perfectly well, all in reasonably paid jobs, but they weren't loaded. And all, bar one, including my dad, retired before they were 65, so they could enjoy spending time with their wives and families, just as I've done, only I managed it sooner (semi-retired).
And their kids have all turned into well-adjusted adults, and done very well for themselves, too. One of them in fact is now head of the EU exit programme team at the Scottish government, and another works in London, as the personal secretary to the CEO of a huge international banking company - very driven, ambitious people. I guess it runs in the family...;)
However, it shows that you can support and do your best for your kids financially, yet still be able to retire at a reasonable age and enjoy your own life.
You just have to bite the bullet, minimise what spend you can and soak up the rest So what if I have to work a bit harder and longer in life? (right now daughter is in the US as an exchange student but it's BLOODY EXPENSIVE to keep them at uni more generally).
I understand all of the former, and that you want to do the best for your daughter and help her, but doesn't she have a part-time job to help cover some of the expenses? Most students I know work in bars or restaurants (and such like) at night, to help support themselves, not just rely on their parents.
Also it's remarkable just how many people who have done well in life and take all the credit themselves for their situation somehow reveal a different story when you dig into the details ... they might have parents who helped with start-up capital, or useful connections, or who knew things about specialist areas that the average person can't access, who give their children a first rate education affordable to the person next door.
Now *that* is a very good point, and one I couldn't agree more with! However as you say, you've still got to do something with it. In that respect, I'll be completely honest with you.
I've been fortunate in many ways... Good health (so far), thank God, for one, which has helped me to be in the position I'm in, and I was lucky to have been brought up by two wonderful, loving parents, who couldn't have looked after me better, particularly in paying for a private primary education, in a small school where I received one-to-one tuition, and which provided the foundation and many of the skill sets that enabled me to go on and achieve what I have.
However, hand on heart, as soon as I started working, I've never once asked my parents for money, nor did they fund my career in any way, and that remains true to this day. Emotional support and encouragement, yes (which was priceless), but financially, no. Even when things were tough, and I was working 16-hour days and all-nighters in my business, to pay the bills, I never once asked them for financial assistance. It would've been easy, as they'd have given me it, but I wanted to stand on my own two feet and be successful (or not) without anyone else's input.
Del was the same. As soon as she was old enough, she supported herself and went her own way, without relying on her parents. The only time we inadvertently received some financial help was when we moved from Scotland to Wales, in 2000.
Del's mum was living on her own in Wrexham (in the house we are in now), and not in very good health. She'd had cancer three times, and it got the point where being up in Scotland, nearly 300 miles away from both of her parents (her dad also lived in Wrexham) was getting Del down, as she was always worried about her mum. So we decided to sell up and move to Wales, to be nearer both of her parents and look after them in their old age. I could easily transfer my business there, and Del was confident she could find another job, which she did.
The house we'd sold in Scotland was in a desirable and affluent area of Glasgow, which we'd bought at the right time for a good price, and done up considerably, so consequently made enough to pay off the mortgage and still be left with a significant sum - enough to buy a decent house in Wrexham outright, which was our intention, as property prices there were much lower than they were in Glasgow, and through all our hard work, we could now look forward to being mortgage free! And I was only 35 then.
Therefore, to save time and allow us to do a bit of house hunting locally, we moved into Del's mum's place. It was only meant to be a temporary measure, but her mum suggested that we make it permanent, thus allowing us to be there in case she needed full time care. I wasn't keen initially, as I like to have my own space, but Del wanted to do it, and I knew how important it was for her to be near her mum. Plus, we both liked the house, as we love old properties, and had stayed there many times in the past.
So I agreed to it on one condition: that we used the money we'd made from our house sale in Scotland, to buy the lodge from her, or a significant proportion at least, and then pay her back the rest, and that's the arrangement we settled upon. Unfortunately within a couple of years of us moving in, Del's mum got cancer for a fourth time, this time in her brain, which was terminal, and after many months of caring for her in a truly awful state, she died.
Now, like me, Del was an only child, and so in her will, her mum left her the house and what remained of the money we'd given her, which will be the same for me, with my dad's place, when he eventually passes away (although I'm certainly in no hurry for that to happen), and that's how we came to live here. So yes, we were fortunate in that sense. However, by that time I'd already made a success of the business and paid off our mortgage, so inheriting the house from Del's mum didn't change things from that perspective. It has, however, provided us with security for the future.
Anyway, you're right, you don't always know what life's going to throw at you, so you can only do your best and hope that things work out. I'm glad that you've done well, through hard work, and so is your daughter, and long may that continue:cool:
Marco.
Yup I much depends on your financial nouse and of course how my h strain is on the purse and how big the purse is.
Think the point is majority of people still want to do best for kids financially and are usually not in as strong a position as a small business owner or have great paid jobs.
This means working more to get what "little Johnny" needs or wants.
It can be a huge struggle lasting the proverbial lifetime.
Sent from my G8341 using Tapatalk
Yup I much depends on your financial nouse and of course how my h strain is on the purse and how big the purse is.
Think the point is majority of people still want to do best for kids financially and are usually not in as strong a position as a small business owner or have great paid jobs.
This means working more to get what "little Johnny" needs or wants.
It can be a huge struggle lasting the proverbial lifetime.
Sure, I have no issue with that, although sometimes "little Johnny" needs taught that he can't always have everything he wants. Nothing worse than raising a spoiled brat, and making a rod for your own back!;)
Marco.
Sure, I have no issue with that, although sometimes "little Johnny" needs taught that he can't always have everything he wants. Nothing worse than raising a spoiled brat, and making a rod for your own back!;)
Marco.
very much so.
There are so many imponderables/uncertainties in life that's it's impossible to generalise. Marriages break down, people suffer poor health, children get into bad company. My own life has been, by most standards, easy, but I don't rush to judge or condemn those dealt a worse hand by fate or events. I made two sensible decisions from my point of view quite early in life: paying into a pension scheme from the age of 23, and buying a flat in a 'good' neighbourhood aged 26. The first means that I have financial security in retirement, the second meant that I could move up the property ladder before house prices went insane. It worked for me, but not everyone would have had those chances in the past, and very few will have them now.
There are so many imponderables/uncertainties in life that's it's impossible to generalise. Marriages break down, people suffer poor health, children get into bad company. My own life has been, by most standards, easy, but I don't rush to judge or condemn those dealt a worse hand by fate or events. I made two sensible decisions from my point of view quite early in life: paying into a pension scheme from the age of 23, and buying a flat in a 'good' neighbourhood aged 26. The first means that I have financial security in retirement, the second meant that I could move up the property ladder before house prices went insane. It worked for me, but not everyone would have had those chances in the past, and very few will have them now.
The property ladder point is a good one. Getting on it now is horrendously difficult for young people, and I sympathise with the struggles involved. It was much easier in your day and mine.
In terms of your pension scheme, you were lucky that the company you paid contributions to have remained in business for all those years. I was always very wary of that, and them going bust and losing everything I'd contributed, which is why I chose not to go down that road, and created my own 'pension fund' instead.
I also dislike the notion of making others money at my expense, and so avoid it if possible. That was one of the reasons why I left the company I worked for, selling artwork to private and commercial premises, and once I'd learned what was involved, started my own business doing the same. The satisfaction gained from the first time I secured a major deal and made some significant money of my own, as opposed to simply receiving a commission payment, was immense! Unfortunately, however, it wasn't always such plain sailing...
And I should hope that no-one here is condemning anyone's life choices, certainly not me. All I've done is point out that if you're in your 50s and stressed out and unhappy, doing a job you hate, simply to maintain a certain lifestyle, then there is a way out, if you're willing to make some sacrifices.
In all honesty, if it were necessary, I'd live in a bedsit, with just enough money to survive comfortably, if it meant that Del and I could be together and live happily. When you strip all the bullshit away, the material stuff that today we all *think* is necessary, through being brainwashed by commercial influences and peer pressure, it is just that: BULLSHIT.
Ultimately, all that matters are relationships and people, and so in life, that should always be our primary focus. No wonder there are so many lonely and unhappy millionaires out there, as money isn't everything.
Marco.
dave2010
10-01-2019, 13:16
Going back to the subject of deferring state pension.
If you get full sp of £8.5k and defer for one year you get £500 a year more on your pension. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me, it would take 17 years just to recoup the year you've deferred, so if you're 66 when you reach sp age you need to live to 83 just to break even...or am I missing something?Just looked at this again. Many people would now be better taking the money as soon as they can. The deferral interest rate is now lower so it would take longer to compensate for not taking the pension at the earliest opportunity. There is also the risk of not getting anything at all if one dies before activating the pension. One or two years are now the most that anyone should even think of deferring the SP, depending on their circumstances.
Anyone who gets any form of lump sum payment or has a high income from other sources (e.g. continuing employment, other pensions) around the time they retire should check and “do the maths”, as the sp might be taxed at a higher level if thresholds are exceeded - though without the option to take a lump sum it could well still be better to take the money, even if it does than get eroded by tax. People who were eligible before 2016 had a much better deal.
willbewill
10-01-2019, 13:25
Yep pre 2016 was definitely better, as were the sp ages. I missed out on the 65 sp age by a few months so have to wait until 65 and 10 months whereas a school friend of mine got his at 65, he was the eldest in our class and I was the youngest...quite irksome to me as we entered the workplace at the same time.
Covenant
10-01-2019, 17:24
The one piece of advice I would give to anyone getting close to SP age is to look very carefully at the various pensions you have accrued over your working life. I have one from the early eighties worth £80000 or so with a guaranteed annuity rate that will give a £6000+ yearly income. The pension company has offered to buy it out for £120000. As I am pretty much ok, I am inclined to stick with the annuity. A few years ago I collected all my pensions together and my finanicial adviser told me to just leave this one as it was. The others he put in a new pension pot that has gone up and down with the stock market.
ive hopes of getting full state pension, if i live long enough, but dont know if i will. they(the Govt) were supposed to pay in full credits for me looking after the wife all those years but ive heard no more
hifinutt
10-01-2019, 17:49
Cut your stress as much as possible, be happy with what you have, stop keeping up with the Jones's.
I'm exceedingly happy to say it worked for me, took early retirement and never looked back.
The stats certainly make you think.
wise words , driving past my stressed out colleagues today , who struggle every day with so much stress from understaffing and managers who could not give a T......
i am glad i got out
Yup, STRESS is today's hidden killer.... Cut it out of your life wherever possible!!
Marco.
So is poverty of cõurse. Its the leading a stressfree life while retaining sufficient money to lead a reasonable life that is the trick
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So is poverty of cõurse. Its the leading a stressfree life while retaining sufficient balance money to lead a reasonable life that is the trick
Definitely, but I'm thinking more among the working population, and who are unlikely to be poor (in a true sense). Stress is the one that 'headless chickens', in the rat race, suffer from most. As you say, achieving a healthy work/life balance is the key:)
Marco.
Covenant
10-01-2019, 18:46
ive hopes of getting full state pension, if i live long enough, but dont know if i will. they(the Govt) were supposed to pay in full credits for me looking after the wife all those years but ive heard no more
Dont leave it Grant, find out. The information is there on the government website. You just need your N.I number.
The lower working class often live in poorer housing stock in poor areas. This is bad both for moral and health.
Thus many try to buy a house to get out of this dump causing them to have to work more, get stressed more etc.
It's a catch 22 really for many. Working class men in n of England were likely to live 25 years less than more affluent southern equivalent
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The question I ask myself is how much money do you need to live on? I suppose it all depends on your anticipated expenditure after you have dealt with the essentials such as food and household bills. I would also account for all motoring costs and TV license etc. Also I would presume to have paid off mortgage and have no rental costs. So I have done the calculations and I get to £800 per month for a single person which is about £10000 per year. Ok this would be pretty frugal but you could live on it.
Where it gets complicated is when you try and account for holidays, new cars, replacement items such as a washing machine or boiler and inflation. So I have calculated you would need about £20-30000 as a safety net fund. Of course if their are two of you and you both live together and put £800 each into the pot things look much better. But this was the bare minimum I calculated you needed to live.
If you have grand holiday expectations, want to dine out often and change your car regularly then this blows this assumption out of the water. I would recommend then building a war chest of £100000 on top of this to indulge in this sort of retirement plan!
I live fairly frugally now and don't spend money unnecessarily especially as I am still saving to retire and I like the challenge of a frugal life as it can be more rewarding and you appreciate things more.
walpurgis
10-01-2019, 18:57
The question I ask myself is how much money do you need to live on?
Not a lot. It's actually rare for me to spend more than a tenner a day, normal outgoings for the home aside.
Not a lot. It's actually rare for me to spend more than a tenner a day, normal outgoings for the home aside.
How much do you recon you can get by on per month?
hifinutt
10-01-2019, 19:10
The lower working class often live in poorer housing stock in poor areas. This is bad both for moral and health.
Thus many try to buy a house to get out of this dump causing them to have to work more, get stressed more etc.
It's a catch 22 really for many. Working class men in n of England were likely to live 25 years less than more affluent southern equivalent
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I have been thinking about this , just working in a council block of flats where everyday they are smoking on the top flight of steps . everybody seems to smoke including roll ups , no wonder life expectancy is reduced .
walpurgis
10-01-2019, 19:26
How much do you recon you can get by on per month?
Never worked it out, but maybe £250? £30 of fuel lasts me a month. Don't smoke anymore, seldom have a drink, don't eat out and so on..........
Covenant
10-01-2019, 19:38
Never worked it out, but maybe £250? £30 of fuel lasts me a month. Don't smoke anymore, seldom have a drink, don't eat out and so on..........
And you live in London!!!
I couldnt manage on 10 times that amount and have no mortgage, dont smoke and only drink a few pints at the weekend. Council tax is £3000 a year though.
My essential bills are under £200 a month so allowing a tenner a day walking around money I reckon I could do it on £500.
walpurgis
10-01-2019, 19:46
I could actually move to the other family home and live for sod all. Let the others pay, I paid for them long enough! I've reached the point where I can't really think of anything I want to buy, as I have everything I need.
Pigmy Pony
10-01-2019, 20:04
I tend to agree, take it as soon as you can is my advice when it comes to pensions - obviously if you put it off you may never collect and I don't believe any deferral scheme will be designed in the interests of the pensioner; someone wants you to have more money? I don't think so.
Sounds like good advice.
The old saying goes, "behind every scheme, there's a schemer".
My essential bills are under £200 a month so allowing a tenner a day walking around money I reckon I could do it on £500.
There's two of us, and we live in a large-ish house, so our Council Tax is high. We'd need £1,000 minimum.
I have been thinking about this , just working in a council block of flats where everyday they are smoking on the top flight of steps . everybody seems to smoke including roll ups , no wonder life expectancy is reduced .Yup. They drink and gamble. One to forget and one on the hope. The they smoke coz they smoke. Nowt to look forward to. I know I'm surrounded by it. I live in a fairly nice bit and quite a few of houses are bought. Rest are fairly well looked after. But other housing in areas near here are bloody awful. Quite a lot of that is the folk who exist there but many decent folk are trapped in places like that. Would drive you to drink and fags
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What's wrong with drink and fags? Lots of wealthy people booze and smoke - and take shedloads of drugs for that matter. Nothing to do with having no money.
I live fairly frugally now and don't spend money unnecessarily especially as I am still saving to retire and I like the challenge of a frugal life as it can be more rewarding and you appreciate things more.
It certainly does. We also live fairly frugally, certainly in terms of seeking value for money and not being wasteful - hence why we do the bulk of our shopping in Lidl!
It's amazing standing behind some folks at supermarket checkouts, and watching how much they spend on SHITE - and expensive shite at that, especially when it comes to junk food and ready meals, plus also their obsession with brand names, and paying hugely over the odds for stuff, when sometimes certain unbranded goods can be cheaper and better - and often it's the same stuff inside apart from the fancy packaging!!
You see the programmes on TV, such as 'How to eat well for less', etc, where families with overspending and dietary problems are shown how to eat better, and more cheaply, whilst replacing some of the branded goods they usually buy with unbranded much cheaper alternatives - and when the final sums are calculated, some of them have saved over TEN GRAND a year!!:eek::eek:
That just shows how ignorant and wasteful folks can be, and with a bit of knowledge, how much money can be saved that would otherwise simply be frittered away...
Now just imagine how much you could save for your retirement, if from day one of becoming married, buying a house and starting a family, say in your 20s, you were saving £10k a year, simply by being a bit more savvy at the supermarket;)
Marco.
There also seems to be some misapprehension that junk food is cheap and fresh 'healthy' food is expensive when it is actually the other way around. When I was poor a takeaway was a rare and serious commitment, as was something like a 'ready meal'. IIRC my budget per meal was about ten bob, so maybe a quid in todays money. You fill up on fresh veg and potatoes because it's cheap and bulky.
dave2010
11-01-2019, 09:21
Definitely, but I'm thinking more among the working population, and who are unlikely to be poor (in a true sense). Stress is the one that 'headless chickens', in the rat race, suffer from most. As you say, achieving a healthy work/life balance is the key:)
Marco.Stress. What is it? I would say I have experienced it, but nobody seems to have any idea what it really is.
Is it:
Being in a job where you are out of your depth, and struggling to keep up, or learn how to do it better?
Being with a group of workers you don't get on with.
Not getting enough support in your job for you to do it effectively.
Wanting to try out new ideas and not being able to do so.
Having your ideas put down and dismissed.
Seeing younger people who are less able pushing to gain control.
Seeing older people who are incompetent maintaining their positions.
Reacting to management imposed changes which seem pointless.
Having external problems which impact on work, and which may actually threaten your ability to work effectively.
Worry about whether you can carry on working and continue to pay the bills.
Being tied down to a 9 to 5 existence, and management which insists on fixed work times.
Being bored with one's job.
I had jobs in the public sector mostly, and a couple of jobs in the private sector. I also had some jobs abroad.
Looking back there were good things in most of those, but there were also some really bad times. I think the worst were in the UK, when the degree of nastiness at work reached high levels. It's hard to know where the issues really came from.
I would say its causes are different for everyone. but mental pressure is the strongest form. most folk have felt it, and alas too many these days live with it; the problem with it is its difficult in the modern world to deal with and not get yourself into trouble.
If you are going to retire early you either need to earn a lot of money and save it young or live frugally. Or win the lottery!
Most folk don't bother about retirement until they get older in their 50's and then it's too late to do much about it if you haven't squirrled enough away and been wise with pensions or investments.
Being trapped in work when your old just because you can't afford to retire is not a fun place to be.
There also seems to be some misapprehension that junk food is cheap and fresh 'healthy' food is expensive when it is actually the other way around. When I was poor a takeaway was a rare and serious commitment, as was something like a 'ready meal'. IIRC my budget per meal was about ten bob, so maybe a quid in todays money. You fill up on fresh veg and potatoes because it's cheap and bulky.
Indeed, it's a common misconception, as is the notion that it's expensive to eat well... Often 'eat well' is considered as having T-bone steak every night for tea. It's an education thing, and the education/knowledge necessary to know how to eat well (read as satisfying and healthy), cheaply, is sadly lacking today, particularly as more folks cook from fresh less, as they have no TIME.
Why? Well, take a guess.... We've been discussing it throughout this thread already:rolleyes:
Del made a huge pot of soup last night, produced from leftover fresh vegetables, stock and some barley, which I'll be having for my lunch with crusty bread. When I tasted it last night it was delicious! She's also taken some to her work. And there's enough left for another four servings. Total cost? Less than 50p!!
As Jim has touched upon, in terms of living frugally, there's a very significant problem these days I believe not simply in knowing how to live frugally, but how to BUDGET PROPERLY and make what you earn go further, i.e. basic home economics.
As I highlighted earlier, there are vast sums of money being wasted by people who obviously have it to start with, but simply fritter it away on junk food, and branded goods that often aren't any better than a supermarket's own, and which are often half the price.
Therefore, people might be under a little less stress, financially, and perhaps even able to retire earlier, if they spent the money that they earned more wisely!
Education, education, education... It's an old story. If they hadn't stopped teaching home economics in schools, as they did back in my day, then maybe more people now would know how to cook and manage/maintain a household?
Dave, I'll address your query on stress shortly. Just off to make breakfast. Had a long lie in this morning!:D
Marco.
Think thats why lidl and Adi do so well now, as many have realised they can buy the same for less in these shops. Lots of fancy cars in their carparks these days.;)
Yes, including mine - and that's why we go there! If it was just full of poor quality cheap shit, such as found in Farmfoods and the like, we wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
The reality is the complete opposite. But try telling the snobs that, who've been conditioned to believe that Lidl is 'inferior' to Tesco, Asda or whatever:doh: Maybe they're just too married to the brand names that they've grown up with?
After all, big companies spend millions of pounds on advertising, and building a brand, to brainwash you by subliminally implanting it in your mind... I'm not kidding either! And people are notoriously creatures of habit, who unless prompted differently, will continue doing the same things all the time.
I still think that a good grasp of home economics, or the lack thereof, these days is a big factor in some of the problems we're discussing.
As soon as Del was old enough, she was entrusted by her parents to deposit the cash and cheques, from their catering business, into the bank and pay the household bills, and she learned from her mum how to cook and look after a home. I was the same, with the stuff from my dad's business, apart from the cooking bit!;) But he taught me how to do the books, which was invaluable to me later when I started my own business. It also helped with my arithmetic!
How many kids could you say the same for these days, and *why* aren't they getting access to that type of education at an early age, at least from their parents?
Marco.
Yes, including mine - and that's why we go there! If it was just full of poor quality cheap shit, such as found in Farmfoods and the like, we wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
The reality is the complete opposite. But try telling the snobs that, who've been conditioned to believe that Lidl is 'inferior' to Tesco, Asda or whatever:doh: Maybe they're just too married to the brand names that they've grown up with?
After all, big companies spend millions of pounds on advertising, and building a brand, to brainwash you by subliminally implanting it in your mind... I'm not kidding either! And people are notoriously creatures of habit, who unless prompted differently, will continue doing the same things all the time.
I still think that a good grasp of home economics, or the lack thereof, these days is a big factor in some of the problems we're discussing.
As soon as Del was old enough, she was entrusted by her parents to deposit the cash and cheques, from their catering business, into the bank and pay the household bills, and she learned from her mum how to cook and look after a home. I was the same, with the stuff from my dad's business, apart from the cooking bit!;) But he taught me how to do the books, which was invaluable to me later when I started my own business. It also helped with my arithmetic!
How many kids could you say the same for these days, and *why* aren't they getting access to that type of education at an early age, at least from their parents?
Marco.
sure... ive used both for years as i agree with you. Daughter does most of hers in Aldi, with a bit elsewhere if they want a change. reckons they get a free holiday out of it
Indeed, Aldi is similar... What's your view on my point about home economics?
Marco.
Indeed... What's your view on my point about home economics?
Marco.
well cooking and bookkeeping have always gone together:D
yup, my mum taught me cooking as a young teenager; said it would be useful. my dad was an accountant to trade and i was always top of class in arithmetic. both should be essential training at school for all
:clapclapclap:
Now, the pertinent question is....
WHY (arithmetic aside) is it no longer being taught, and might that largely explain why so many folks these days, in that respect, are clueless?
Marco.
We didn't have home economics at my school and I would not be happy if my son was being taught home economics either.
If you want to learn to cook buy a cook book, and budgeting and running a household is just common sense.
We didn't have home economics at my school
We didn't either. The blokes in the B stream did woodwork or metalwork; for the rest of us it was books, books and more books. At my daughters' schools, the less-gifted girls did cookery (which has been variously known as Domestic Science, Domestic Economy and Home Economics, but was/is cookery) whilst the brainy ones stuck to academic subjects after the first couple of years.
I must admit I was pleasantly surprised by the quality and (low) prices I found on a recent visit to Lidl. Actually amazed is more the word. I would go there regularly but SWMBO prefers somewhere more expensive and I'm never going to win that arguements!
As to why youngsters are poor at the domestic stuff, well there are take-aways every 10 meters, kids delivering pizza 24 x7 in most neighbourhoods, ready meals cheaper in supermarkets than you could buy the ingredients for and armies of people ready to clean your house for a lower hourly rate than yours. I'm not supporting any of this, just saying.
Y
As soon as Del was old enough, she was entrusted by her parents to deposit the cash and cheques, from their catering business, into the bank and pay the household bills, and she learned from her mum how to cook and look after a home. I was the same, with the stuff from my dad's business, apart from the cooking bit!;) But he taught me how to do the books, which was invaluable to me later when I started my own business. It also helped with my arithmetic!
How many kids could you say the same for these days, and *why* aren't they getting access to that type of education at an early age, at least from their parents?
Marco.
In my case, there was no-one to teach me. My father was paid weekly, in cash. He handed the money to my mother, who put the money behind the clock on the mantlepiece in the dining room, and helped herself to money when she went shopping or paid bills. It was entirely cash-based, so there were no 'books' to keep. Sometimes the money would run out before the week ended, and we'd have to pretend to be out when someone (eg the milkman) wanted paying. My parents didn't have a bank account or cheque books until long after I'd left home, and never had any sort of credit or debit card. I had to teach myself how to budget, which only became a necessity once I'd taken on a mortgage.
We didn't have home economics at my school and I would not be happy if my son was being taught home economics either.
Why? Clearly it's necessary for some. I can assure you, based on what Del tells me, as she teaches them (academically) everyday, most kids now don't have a clue about home economics, probably because their parents don't either...
If you want to learn to cook buy a cook book, and budgeting and running a household is just common sense.
In terms of the last bit, clearly not, in terms of much of the general public, based on the evidence I outlined earlier! Or perhaps common sense is another human skill that's slowly been eroded by our increasing dependency on technology?
And you can't learn to cook, just by reading cook books!:doh:
Marco.
In my case, there was no-one to teach me. My father was paid weekly, in cash. He handed the money to my mother, who put the money behind the clock on the mantlepiece in the dining room, and helped herself to money when she went shopping or paid bills. It was entirely cash-based, so there were no 'books' to keep. Sometimes the money would run out before the week ended, and we'd have to pretend to be out when someone (eg the milkman) wanted paying. My parents didn't have a bank account or cheque books until long after I'd left home, and never had any sort of credit or debit card. I had to teach myself how to budget, which only became a necessity once I'd taken on a mortgage.
Fair enough. It was rather different for my parents, and me growing up. We were taught home economics in secondary school from 1st year to 3rd year (along with woodwork and metalwork), after which you had to lose certain subjects (such as the above), to study those you wanted to attain formal qualifications in, so I dropped them after that.
Therefore, during those three years I learned quite a lot about the subjects concerned, including creating a few 'culinary disasters' in the kitchen (read as cookers and stuff they'd put into class rooms):D
Marco.
Why? Clearly it's necessary for some. I can assure you, based on what Del tells me, as she teaches them (academically) everyday, most kids now don't have a clue about home economics, probably because their parents don't either...
It's an old complaint (as most complaints are). Here's something written by Hannah More over two hundred years ago about the two daughters of a wealthy farmer who are sent away to a boarding school:
'Though they knew how to spend both Pounds, Shillings, and Pence, yet they did not know so well how to cast them up, and they scorned their mother’s request to help with preparations for a dinner party, asking "whether she had sent them to Boarding School to learn how to cook?"
I must admit I was pleasantly surprised by the quality and (low) prices I found on a recent visit to Lidl. Actually amazed is more the word. I would go there regularly but SWMBO prefers somewhere more expensive and I'm never going to win that arguements!
Why should there be an argument, and not simply a civilised discussion between two intelligent adults, with supposedly an EQUAL say in the matter?;)
Glad you can see the value of Lidl... Their fresh fruit and veg is as good as anything from other supermarkets, and much cheaper, and even their fresh meat/free-range chicken is of superb quality - and if you're partial to a 'ready meal', then their 'Deluxe' range is as good as anything similar from Waitrose, trust me!
As to why youngsters are poor at the domestic stuff, well there are take-aways every 10 meters, kids delivering pizza 24 x7 in most neighbourhoods, ready meals cheaper in supermarkets than you could buy the ingredients for and armies of people ready to clean your house for a lower hourly rate than yours. I'm not supporting any of this, just saying.
That bit's a fallacy, but I agree with the rest, and you make a good point about take-away food, which encourages both laziness and overspending. Unfortunately everything is dumbed down these days for convenience, not just food...
Marco.
Beobloke
11-01-2019, 12:52
Indeed, it's a common misconception, as is the notion that it's expensive to eat well....
So much this.
I've probably mentioned it before but, in our last house we had an extension added, we were without a kitchen for nearly three months. During this time we obviously went down the pub quite a bit, :D but also availed ourselves of some decent quality convenience food that could be done in the microwave, as this was all we had available during the week.
Whilst some of them weren't too bad (although many though 'salt' was a subsitute for 'flavour'), the main thing we noticed was that our shopping bill was 20-30% higher then when we bought all the basics and cooked everything ourselves, as we would normally have done. At that time, we didn't shop at Lidl either, so our shopping billl has now dropped even further.
Therefore I get very cross indeed when fat, lazy sods appear on TV and whine about how they "can't affored to eat healthy food". Absolute B*ll*cks.
willbewill
11-01-2019, 13:00
When I was in school, I'm 64, only the girls took home economics and we boys woodwork. But it worked out for me as I was 'asked' to leave school during second year fifth and got a job as an apprentice carpenter and joiner which set the course for my whole career, which was varied but all built upon that start.
As a kid I helped my mother bake etc and I could do basic meals but during our married life my wife did nearly all the cooking, she was mostly a stay at home mum or as she put it a 'kept woman'. When I retired from my main job I promised myself to learn to cook better and now I also make some of the weekly meals.
Also I was brought up to be pretty self sufficient and can turn my hand to most things. I always try to repair stuff rather then replacing, another way to save a heap of money. It's a pity car repairs have become so much more complicated nowadays though even though the mechanicals haven't changed greatly
I learnt book keeping when I had my first bout of self employment encouraged my my father in law who was an accountant
willbewill
11-01-2019, 13:02
Do you think a lot of us guys have learnt to live frugally so we can afford more 'toys' lol
Why? Clearly it's necessary for some. I can assure you, based on what Del tells me, as she teaches them (academically) everyday, most kids now don't have a clue about home economics, probably because their parents don't either...
In terms of the last bit, clearly not, in terms of much of the general public, based on the evidence I outlined earlier! Or perhaps common sense is another human skill that's slowly been eroded by our increasing dependency on technology?
And you can't learn to cook, just by reading cook books!:doh:
Marco.
tbh, most kids who left school couldnt cook much, if atall when i was that age; you just learned, usually by asking mother. cook books are an aide to folk who can already do basics right
Why? Clearly it's necessary for some. I can assure you, based on what Del tells me, as she teaches them (academically) everyday, most kids now don't have a clue about home economics, probably because their parents don't either...
In terms of the last bit, clearly not, in terms of much of the general public, based on the evidence I outlined earlier! Or perhaps common sense is another human skill that's slowly been eroded by our increasing dependency on technology?
And you can't learn to cook, just by reading cook books!:doh:
Marco.
I'm old school, so boys do woodwork/metalwork, girls do home ec. Although there weren't any girls at my school so everyone did woodwork. That was a waste of time as well but at least it's appropriate.
I agree you can't learn to cook by just reading the book, you read the book then you attempt some of the recipes and practice will make perfect. There's no mysteries that need imparting and you don't need training to work an oven or a grill.
And you can't teach common sense, it's a learning curve - you do something stupid that results in unpleasant consequences, you learn, you don't do it again. The problem these days is that it's okay, even encouraged, to blame someone else for it (preferably a faceless entity like 'the government') and demand that someone else clears up/pays for the mess you've made. No consequences = no lessons learned.
I'm old school, so boys do woodwork/metalwork, girls do home ec. Although there weren't any girls at my school so everyone did woodwork. That was a waste of time as well but at least it's appropriate.
I'm not any 'school', old or new; it was simply how it was in my school when I was there. For a period of time, we did both home economics and woodwork/metalwork. No girls at your school? Whoa.. Then you missed out on a whole load of fun, bro!!:D:eyebrows:
I agree you can't learn to cook by just reading the book, you read the book then you attempt some of the recipes and practice will make perfect. There's no mysteries that need imparting and you don't need training to work an oven or a grill.
No, but it takes knowledge and experience to know how to successfully combine different flavours and ingredients [i.e. proper cooking], and which involves rather more skill than simply knowing how to switch on a cooker!;)
And you can't teach common sense, it's a learning curve - you do something stupid that results in unpleasant consequences, you learn, you don't do it again. The problem these days is that it's okay, even encouraged, to blame someone else for it (preferably a faceless entity like 'the government') and demand that someone else clears up/pays for the mess you've made. No consequences = no lessons learned.
Absolutely, but the problem is also we're relying more and more on computers to do our thinking for us, as evidenced everywhere, so how can you learn common sense when you're using your brain, and most significantly, your own instincts and judgement, less and less?
That's one of the reasons why we're slowly breeding a notion of 'zombies'!
Marco.
walpurgis
11-01-2019, 14:28
Nothing particularly difficult about cooking or home economics or basic accountancy (or anything else that one may want in everyday life). It's just a bit of common sense and a little application.
dave2010
11-01-2019, 14:32
I must admit I was pleasantly surprised by the quality and (low) prices I found on a recent visit to Lidl. Actually amazed is more the word. I would go there regularly but SWMBO prefers somewhere more expensive and I'm never going to win that arguements!
As to why youngsters are poor at the domestic stuff, well there are take-aways every 10 meters, kids delivering pizza 24 x7 in most neighbourhoods, ready meals cheaper in supermarkets than you could buy the ingredients for and armies of people ready to clean your house for a lower hourly rate than yours. I'm not supporting any of this, just saying.Lidl and Aldi are really good for somethings. Also Asda and Morrisons. There is an Aldi at Merrow, near Guildford, and Lidls in Leatherhead and on the way into Kingston via Chessington. I can't remember any Asda or Morrisons in the Guildford or Leatherhead areas. Morrisons have great deals on wonky vegetables - they're good, and not even particularly wonky! Sticking with branded goods at sometimes 2 or 3 times the price is bonkers.
Nothing particularly difficult about cooking or home economics or basic accountancy (or anything else that one may want in everyday life). It's just a bit of common sense and a little application.
Of course, Geoff, but you're part of a generation where such was instilled in you, as a matter of course from an early age, and common place. I can assure you, that isn't the case now. When was the last time you engaged with an *average* teenager, or someone under 25?
They've got no common sense now whatsoever. They can't 'problem solve', because they've never been taught how to! If it's not on Google, forget it...:doh:
In Scotland, there's a great word for it: 'glaikit': https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/scottish-word-of-the-day-glaikit-1-2343273
Marco.
willbewill
11-01-2019, 14:42
Of course, Geoff, but you're part of a generation where such was instilled in you from an early age, and common place. I can assure you, that isn't the case now.
Marco.Glad we instilled it in our kids, they all buy carefully and cook their own food. It's a delight this morning having breakfast with our youngest daughter in Florida to see her planning the next week's meals ready for today's shopping, mostly at Aldi's. And to see her hunting coupons.
She also keeps a spreadsheet for all her budgeting.
Thankful that she can do all this as they have to solely rely on her husband's salary as she hasn't got her green card as yet
walpurgis
11-01-2019, 15:22
Of course, Geoff, but you're part of a generation where such was instilled in you, as a matter of course from an early age, and common place. I can assure you, that isn't the case now. When was the last time you engaged with an *average* teenager, or someone under 25?
They've got no common sense whatsoever. They can't 'problem solve', because they've never been taught how to! If it's not on Google, forget it...:doh:
In Scotland, there's a great word for it: 'glaikit': https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/scottish-word-of-the-day-glaikit-1-2343273
Marco.
Well that does not apply with my grand daughters. Both are independant minded enough to take things on. The eldest is studying marine biology, athletics, business studies and photography and the youngest is also doing athletics and martial arts. They are only fourteen and thirteen respectively. Neither is a 'snowflake' or unresouceful and both are confident and pushy enough when the need arises.
....which is why I used the term "average";)
Clearly your and/or their parents influence on them, and perhaps that of their schoolteachers, if they were any good, has had the desired effect. What do you think happens, however, in the majority of cases these days, when that influence is absent?
You have to think in terms of the general public: your 'average Joe'. You or I (or our offspring, if applicable), or I suspect most folks here, aren't representative of that average.
Marco.
Sherwood
11-01-2019, 15:41
Lidl and Aldi are really good for somethings. Also Asda and Morrisons. There is an Aldi at Merrow, near Guildford, and Lidls in Leatherhead and on the way into Kingston via Chessington. I can't remember any Asda or Morrisons in the Guildford or Leatherhead areas. Morrisons have great deals on wonky vegetables - they're good, and not even particularly wonky! Sticking with branded goods at sometimes 2 or 3 times the price is bonkers.
One man's wonky is another man's regular!:rolleyes:
Is that what the wife tells you, too?:D:eyebrows:
Marco.
I've probably mentioned it before but, in our last house we had an extension added, we were without a kitchen for nearly three months. During this time we obviously went down the pub quite a bit, :D but also availed ourselves of some decent quality convenience food that could be done in the microwave, as this was all we had available during the week.
Whilst some of them weren't too bad (although many though 'salt' was a subsitute for 'flavour'), the main thing we noticed was that our shopping bill was 20-30% higher then when we bought all the basics and cooked everything ourselves, as we would normally have done. At that time, we didn't shop at Lidl either, so our shopping billl has now dropped even further.
Therefore I get very cross indeed when fat, lazy sods appear on TV and whine about how they "can't affored to eat healthy food". Absolute B*ll*cks.
Indeed, but you have to consider the fact that a lot of folks simply don't know any better, and for precisely the reasons I've outlined: lack of education on home economics! If you don't know, you'll never learn...
Why do think there's such a proliferation of TV programmes on now, such as 'How to eat well for less', and currently, Tom Kerridge's 'Fresh Start'. where he's essentially teaching people, not only how to cook, but crucially, home economics: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&q=tom+kerridges+fresh+start
Watch any episode, and you'll see *exactly* what's lacking today in people's food education and ability to budget properly. Quite clearly, there are enough of them benefiting from such education, especially if you can spunk a 'superfluous' £10k a year in a supermarket, on utter shite, without even knowing it!!:doh:
So current levels of ignorance in that area suggest that home economics should be taught in schools, thus added to the curriculum accordingly.
Marco.
I find tesco and morrisons not too bad if your careful what and when you buy.
Sherwood
11-01-2019, 16:51
I find tesco and morrisons not too bad if your careful what and when you buy.
The £10 Tesco Meal Deal is a real bargain. Side dish, main, desert and bottle of wine for a tenner!
willbewill
11-01-2019, 16:53
The £10 Tesco Meal Deal is a real bargain. Side dish, main, desert and bottle of wine for a tenner!But rather limited if, like me, you are lactose intolerant
Sherwood
11-01-2019, 16:57
But rather limited if, like me, you are lactose intolerant
True. They could add a few more options!
I find tesco and morrisons not too bad if your careful what and when you buy.
Never in them. We use Lidl (and sometimes Aldi) almost exclusively for our basic, day to day stuff, and Waitrose (as far as supermarkets go), for anything 'high-end'. Otherwise, we use farmer's markets, often for fresh veg, and the local butchers/fishmongers for the majority of our fresh meat or fish.
Occasionally we also source stuff, such as some Italian ingredients (e.g. white truffles, for risotto, or some cured meats) from online specialists.
Marco.
The £10 Tesco Meal Deal is a real bargain. Side dish, main, desert and bottle of wine for a tenner!
yeah ive had that a few times. does me twice and i give the booze away.
Never in them. We use Lidl (and sometimes Aldi) almost exclusively for our basic, day to day stuff, and (as far as supermarkets go) Waitrose, for anything 'high-end'. Otherwise, we use local farmer's markets, often for fresh veg, and the local butchers/fishmongers for the majority of our fresh meat or fish.
Occasionally we also source stuff, such as some Italian ingredients (e.g. white truffles, for risotto) from online specialists.
Marco.
needs must, but as i say if you watch what you buy its not too pricy. shopping is more of a problem now so i tend to go where i can get good access.
Fair enough, but your new car should help you get around more:)
The main point I was making is that, unless you're a brand-name freak, there's very little for sale in Tesco or Morrisons (Asda or Sainsbury's too, for that matter) that you can't get a perfectly good equivalent of in Lidl, and usually cheaper. Waitrose (or sometimes M&S) is different, as they sell some genuinely different things of high quality.
The fresh bread selection available in Waitrose, for example, is simply phenomenal.
Marco.
Fair enough, but your new car should help you get around more:)
The main point I was making is that, unless you're a brand-name freak, there's very little for sale in Tesco or Morrisons (Asda or Sainsbury's too, for that matter) that you can't get a perfectly good equivalent of in Lidl, and usually cheaper. Waitrose (or sometimes M&S) is different, as they sell some genuinely different things of high quality.
The bread selection in Waitrose, for example, is simply phenomenal.
Marco.
i would say there are lots of things tbh, but it obviously depends on what you eat etc. i shop everywhere when and where i can. i like good ready meals with good dates on hand for when im not up to making anything as well. tonight im not even able to heat one of them up. i can barely walk. so off to bed shortly.
Different ballgame mate, if you've got a disability. That puts a completely different perspective on matters. You've discovered the joys of Lidl's Deluxe pasta range, though;)
Plus, one thing we rarely do is plan in advance what we're going to eat. That's too regimented and boring! Monday is toad in the hole, Friday is fish, and all that pish... We buy what we *fancy* eating on any given day, or what looks good/grabs our attention when we go into a shop or market.
The only time we write shopping lists, is to remind us to buy the very basics (bog roll, washing power, etc), or when we're looking for specific ingredients to make a recipe. Being spontaneous is much more fun!:)
Enjoy your rest.
Marco.
Sherwood
11-01-2019, 17:27
In the course of a month I use most of the supermarket chains because each has something unique. Although Waitress is generally pricey, its specialty loose leaf teas are very keenly priced. Can't be faffed going to supermarket so generally get home delivery!
This thread is well off topic so.... Whenever I visit my supermarket and see literally dozens of variations of basically the same product e.g. Energy bars, sausages, ham, toilet cleaner, I get an irrational panic attack worrying that they are never going to be able to sell them all. Is there any treatment for this ?
walpurgis
11-01-2019, 19:20
This thread is well off topic so.... Whenever I visit my supermarket and see literally dozens of variations of basically the same product e.g. Energy bars, sausages, ham, toilet cleaner, I get an irrational panic attack worrying that they are never going to be able to sell them all. Is there any treatment for this ?
Yup. Buy them all!
Yup. Buy them all!
I tried that Geoff but the shelves were full again the next week!
walpurgis
11-01-2019, 21:15
I tried that Geoff but the shelves were full again the next week!
:D
Never in them. We use Lidl (and sometimes Aldi) almost exclusively for our basic, day to day stuff, and Waitrose (as far as supermarkets go), for anything 'high-end'. Otherwise, we use farmer's markets, often for fresh veg, and the local butchers/fishmongers for the majority of our fresh meat or fish.
Occasionally we also source stuff, such as some Italian ingredients (e.g. white truffles, for risotto, or some cured meats) from online specialists.
Marco.
I am a massive Lidl fan. It is my supermarket of choice as it stocks so much quality european brands. Their products are top notch especially their Deluxe brand. Fruit and Veg could better but their bakery is superb. The best thing about Lidl is the unexpected items they stock now and then. Certainly not a boring supermarket like Tesco!
Agree with everything, Jim, apart from the fruit and veg comment... Maybe it's a branch thing? The fruit and veg selection in the Wrexham Lidl is excellent, and easily as good, if not better, than that in any of the rival supermarkets:)
Marco.
dave2010
14-01-2019, 14:52
The GI loaves are very good - when they have them. Oddly they seem to be of quite different sizes in different branches - yet they should all be the same weight. Some stores have them frequently, others either always sell out just before I get there, or don't have them.
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